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This quote by [email protected] is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
I also see this pinned on my instance.
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
Super socially awkward and anxious in middle school and high school and was also bullied a ton. Girls would ask me out as a joke, and there’s no good response. If you say yes you’re a dumbass for thinking they’re actually interested in you, if you say no you’re gay and should kill yourself. Combined with being an impressionable teen with incredibly negative self esteem on reddit at a time where something along the lines of all men are rapists was a common sentiment, it really honestly fucked me up. I still am not comfortable with romance and intimacy with women to be honest.
I guess I’ll share too.
Although I don’t actually cry that often, and will still tend to shut my self off and wallow when I start to feel down; which is something that happens intermittently several times a year where I just feel hopeless, unhappy, lacking purpose, and not really wanting to do life.
So when I’m in these moods my friends have realised the signs, mainly me being hard to reach and absent from gatherings etc. they will all reach out and make me leave the house and have a talk about how I’m feeling, have some hugs, and then just go to roasting each other. This helps massively as isolating makes me worse so being around friends and just being in the moment is a really good antidote for me.
I guess my point is that the men around me are a bit more accepting of mental health issues. It’s not like they’re all hipster kind of mates. I am unusual in that I’m a nerdy software developer that is also very street wise and has mates that are completely the opposite. Most are trades people, a few sell drugs, are handy with their hands etc. basically my friends are chavs, but they’re accepting and not what you would think.
Cried over my dog dying at school once. Made me a target for physical violence for about 6 months after that. Vulnerability is for people you trust.
Vulnerability is for people you trust.
And this is what needs to change. In order to trust someone, a level of vulnerability is required. We must demand that expression of emotion is not seen as vulnerability, but as a human need.
Some people say that real men don’t have feelings
We have feelings (we have feelings)
Some people say that we are not real men
(We’re real men)
That hurts our feelings
(Hurts our feelings when you say we’re not real men)
Some people say that real men are invincible
(We’re vincible) we’re vincible
They forgot about me…
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patriarchy is a social hierarchy system, not the set of all men. It harms women and men in distinct but very real ways
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is belittling to tell a victim
Good thing I’m not telling that to a victim then.
Claiming everyone is a victim of social hierarchy isn’t helpful
Analyzing cultural and systemic issues is good, actually.
It’s good, but not particularly helpful in 1 on 1 discussion where it’s more valuable to focus on the individual behaviors first.
Sure, and I wouldn’t be bringing up the same subject when consoling a friend who was just treated this way by their partner, or talking to a friend who just treated their partner this way. But the context here is the discussion section of a post of a screenshot of a post of a stranger recounting their experience. I’m not trying to help Silverwing Secundus; they’re not here in this thread. There’s a lot of discussion in this comment section about common experiences and gender relations. So it seems perfectly natural to bring up one of the most significant influences on the way people of opposite genders interact in our society.
Thank you.
That’s not what that word means. “patriarchs” aren’t men in general, that’s why it’s possible (and in fast true) that the patriarchy harms people of all genders.
As this post demonstrate, men don’t benefit from it, e.g. it makes us live shorter, it encourages suppressing our emotion, it encourages our aggression. Because some (mostly) men in power benefit if we don’t unionize, let ourselves be pressed into shit jobs or the military, and so on.
Read the other messages here and you might understand.
Patriarchy isn’t “men bad”, it’s a social system that places men and women into predetermined, rigid boxes. This harms both men and women, since none of us are as rigid as the system demands us to be.
“Boys don’t wear pink”
“Girls play with dolls”
“Men don’t cry”
“Women who dress ‘that way’ deserve it”
All of those are patriarchy reinforcing statements. Again, this harmful belief that “men shouldn’t have feelings” and them then bring rejected by women due to opening up is, on a macro level, due to the patriarchy. On an individual level, they’re just people being assholes to their loved ones.
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Yeah, if it’s not intended to be anti-men there’s plenty of other words that could be used. Patriarchy as a concept is as the other poster described, but weaponization of the term is a different layer from the term itself. There’s all sorts of mental gymnastics involved when you talk to people whose main patriarchy problem is their mother.
That having been said it’s important to remember that in terms of the overall bulk of humanity, men are significantly more externally violent and rapey than the general population of women by at least an order of magnitude. My gut feeling on the situation is that a lot of the sentiment in this thread is directly related to that outcome, but it’s still important to remember that on average if you put a woman and a man in a locked room, the woman is in far more danger.
Curiously, lesbian relationships show similar rates of domestic abuse to hetero relationships.
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I honestly wish that a better word had been chosen than “patriarchy”. Because at first blush it does look like “men bad” in an environment in which there are people who are predisposed to dismiss it as such.
Particularly since the patriarchy harms everyone. It can smack of “you’re the enemy and it’s your fault you’re suffering” to the uninitiated. And bad faith actors are using that to misrepresent feminism and perpetuate the patriarchy.
That’s what “patriarchy” means; rule by men. If you mean something else, say something else.
So many people blaming “the patriarchy” for the terrible behaviour of women.
No, that doesn’t justify treating the men in your life as soulless servants.
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I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you’re ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don’t.
As for people saying you’re an incel… I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are “involuntarily celibate”. This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term “incel” but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
Thank you. That means a lot. I guess that’s the part I’m most uncomfortable with - why is expressing emotion seen as vulnerability? It’s one of our most effective methods of communication, particularly of empathy.
A lot of people are deathly afraid of self reflection, of thinking about themselves, about their own behavior and how it affects others. Because if you reflect on it, you might come to the conclusion that you have to change something about yourself. And that is hard work, that a lot of people simply don’t want to do (which I think is the reason for many things going wrong in the world). Being able to express emotion is a sign of the ability to self reflect, to be aware of how one feels and being able to communicate that. In a way it makes people aware of their own shortcomings, which is why they want to avoid it.
I think that maybe a different way to look at it would be to ask: why is vulnerability a bad thing? Everyone has emotions. Everyone is impacted and affected by things. To use your situation as an example - your partner betrayed you. You SHOULD be vulnerable to that. The fact that they can’t fathom having that level of vulnerability, to the point that they claimed you were trying to manipulate them, is the problem. That kind of emotional invulnerability is what leads people to do the kinds of things they did.
I truly believe that being vulnerable in front of someone, especially when they have hurt you so much, is strength. Showing someone how much they hurt you is really hard. Find people you can be vulnerable with. They’re out there.
I’m still surprised people use the old definition of “incel” considering that the connotations changed to “radical misogynist” or “terrorist” in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn’t be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn’t get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it’s almost slanderous.
“My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?”
You can’t, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
you know her better obviously but sometimes you’re too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn’t genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it’s just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
That… Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn’t have a defense.
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did you not read anything before or after that quote? we were already talking about a woman doing it. this is me talking about, in response to their comment about whether it’s about toxic masculinity, that it is done the other way all the time as well, and this way has the added layer of toxic masculinity.
now I haven’t added anything to my original comment but this is what you missed.
I’m glad your ex is an ex. I believe it’s experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people sing gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
The patriarchy is a system, and it’s both men and women who promulgate it
Then it shouldn’t be called “patriarchy”.
that’s not how things work. some prisoners helping the guards doesn’t suddenly put them at the same position in a prison.
I’m still really broken about the miscarriage a few years back and most of the response I’ve gotten from others has been in the form of violence.
I’m so sorry. My wife and I are trying to conceive and after two years of trying we got a positive. Then another a few days later. We were aware that we shouldn’t get our hopes up, but despite that how can you not? We were so excited.
Then the spotting started. Then another test still showed positive but it was so faint. It turned into desperately trying to bargain with the universe and convince ourselves that these signs didn’t point to the obvious. But the obgyn confirmed it a few days later.
For us it was only ~2 weeks after the first positive, and I can’t even imagine how hard it must be to lose it later on. I’m still devastated. We’re still trying, but I’m not sure how much fear is going to be mixed in if we manage to get another positive.
That’s a rough place. You don’t want to bring it up to often, nor allow any situation make them feel as if your sadness or grieving is due to them at all. Been through a situation like that, not fun. You want to be a rock, but also human, while not allowing that humanity… which is part of the problem.
You deserve better people around you!
Seriously wtf, where in the world??
Nebraska
Ah… somehow that makes sense. Condolences 😂🤙
You get an upvote for that. My hometown is a terrible place l.
This comment section is giving me the impression a lot of Americans are just vile people.
I mean, duh? There’s enough vile Americans that Trump was democratically elected twice after being known as an out and proud child molestor and rapist.
That doesn’t mean the patriarchy hasn’t caused issues for other parts of the world though, just that America can be viewed as its end goal.
You have no idea. Empathy is seen as a weakness. Especially the more power you have in a career.
gestures broadly to the flaming hellscape
Ya think?
Yeah, it’s hard. We had a miscarriage a few years before our kid, and nobody really gave a shit about the effect it had. Hell, my fuckstick boss made me take (bullshit noise) after hours alerts from the fucking hospital room.
One of the many times I’ve used malicious compliance to change policies.
That sucks. A miscarriage is basically losing a baby, if you’ve been thinking about it like one. I still think about life with the son that my wife and I lost in a miscarriage.
I don’t have any tattoos, but if I ever got one it would be 4 small circles. Three would be filled in and one would be just an outline. It’s not much, but as a father of four pregnancies but three kids it would be a small little reminder just for me. My logic has always been if I’m going to be marked on the outside, it should reflect how I’m marked on the inside.
Four years later it still stings. I wish you peace; I wish I could say talking about it with other people has helped, but I can’t.
I went through the worst depression of my life around 2017, tried to express these feelings to my gf at the time and explain why our romance was failing or why I spent half the day in bed.
Basically got told “poor you”, everyone has struggles, snap out of it and be a man. That definitely helped, and didn’t push me even deeper into feelings of worthlessness…
I’m doing ok now, but it was the first time I felt comfortable enough with someone to express those emotions, I was at my wits end. The response was eye opening, never again.
Instead of saying to yourself “never again”, how about “never again with someone who will betray my vulnerability”? Because what happened to you sounds really horrible, but there are people out there who will be with you in your struggles and nurture and build you up in your vulnerable moments.
As a man someone who also struggles with vulnerability, there are ways to test the waters in a relationship (family, friend, partner, etc) when it comes to vulnerability so that you won’t be hurt like that again. I actually watched this video recently and found it really helpful: https://youtu.be/WyKFHd7cSaU
Of course, none of this is easy, but it can be life-changing to open up to someone and feel cared for. I’m glad you’re doing better, and I wish you the best.
I’ve been in a relationship with my partner for 12 years now and I am lucky that I found someone that was supporting of my issues since pretty much day one.
In the last year, after many years of therapy, I was able to finally be totally vulnerable to my partner even if she always was supportive, not holding anything back, and it was liberating and almost addictive for a while.
The feeling is indescribable and one of the best feeling of my life.
Im sorry that happened, but never again what?
Like, “never again open up about a huge important part of my life to”
a) anyone, or b) someone you don’t know too long
Because only a) is healthy. I don’t think trying to mask your depression can work in a serious relationship.
A given group of people are not a monolith. While we do share a lot of similarities, we also all have the potential to be a little different from one another.
I hope you get a chance to find someone that will allow you to be open like that again. Sharing those emotions and having someone their to empathetically receive them is one of the most gratifying things as a human.
I’ll add to the trauma dump I suppose
Got married in August 2018, the beginning of the next month my dad died of cancer. Obviously I was mourning him and was in a shitty place, my then wife took that as me not being active enough in our relationship and decided to start cheating on me with multiple guys. Once I found out and called her out on it, and also subsequently kicked her out all of a sudden I was the bad guy. I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics she was hopping through to think that was justified.
Anyway I’ve moved across the country since then and have met who I believe is my soulmate, and things are amazing with her. Just had to go through sewers to find my green pasture I suppose
Consider yourself lucky you didn’t have kids with her
This whole thread needs to listen to Samaritans by Idles.
This whole comment needs to explain why if you expect a real response other than downvotes.
“Why are men in general so emotionally constipated? omg stop crying like a pussy; we just asked a question!” - the patriarchy, oppressing us all
It’s ironically self-unaware victim-blaming to use the male-based word “patriarchy” to describe a set of societal norms and expectations that both sexes are equally responsible for creating and perpetuating. Puts the blame entirely on men and takes women completely off the hook.
Pure sexism.
I say the same about calling the movement feminism
If men are equally welcome in it, it’s not feminism anymore, it’s egalitarianism, but every woman I’ve ever seen it suggested to flips their shit while every man I’ve seen it suggested to goes “yeah that makes sense”
Stawp ghashlighting meh
feminism is for everyone. patriarchy is both against and enforced by everyone
I think the ideology you think of when you say it’s for everyone, is egalitarianism. Feminism can’t be for everyone in the same way that patriarchy can’t mean “womens oppression of men”.
Unless of course, you’re looking to confuse with the terminology.
Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.
The word literally derives from feminine
feminine adjective (WOMEN) Showing qualities that people generally think are typical of women
There is an opposite term to feminism, masculinism, which then leads to the idea that it can’t be completely equal. But i assume people will keep using the term to mean “equal rights for all”, since thats usually how it goes with languages.
I just worry that the implication is changing so that women = equality and men = inequality. That train of thought is mainly what drives younger men to go off the wall with their chauvinistic tendencies.
But that is not how it ends up working. There are very little places to talk about men’s issues. It either turns in some incel shit or reddits menslib.
Tell me where in feminism are men’s issues dealt with? They aren’t, because feminism is about acheiving equality of the sexes for women. It is about advancing women and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Feminism doesn’t address men’s issues. It never has and never will because that’s not the purpose of the movement.
Beating people over the head with this out of context “social equality of the sexes” is only going to drive men to declare they aren’t feminists because feminism does not and never will address mens issues.
If you feel that claim is unwarranted please point out a single men’s issue that has been addressed by feminism because the Wikipedia article certainly doesn’t include any examples.
Time to get downvoted for having an opinion, here I go:
In my experience, women were the ones constantly telling me I should be positive, I should smile/laugh more, I should not worry or cry or stuff like that (even lovingly telling me to shush), male friends were MUCH more accepting when it came to my emotional problems (both were equally useless tho).
BUT I don’t blame women nor the patriarchy, I blame toxic positivity, as most of us weren’t taught how to deal with emotions and came from toxic/broken homes so forcing a positive take on everything and shunning anything that could weaken that bubble was (and still is) the norm and that is genderless, assholery is a human thing, not a male vs female thing.Genuine question, how would you wish a good friend/partner would react?
You’ll have to be more specific with your question because… if I’m pointing out a toxic positivity attitude and you tell me you don’t know what a more desirable reaction would be, it concerns me… a lot.
OK, be concerned. Now, please tell me how to be better. I am the first to admit that I suck at inter-personal things.
Let’s say you are hanging out with a good friend, it is late in the evening, and they tell you about some fucked up shit happening to them.
“That sucks, man hang in there,” doesn’t quite cut it, as someone else pointed out, no solution you can up with in five minutes is going to help them, and just awkward silence is awkward to both of you.
What do you do?
I do nothing.
I just sit there and listen to them, curse with them and let them blow as much steam as they need, you’d be surprised but most of the time people already know what to do, all they need is to be allowed to embrace whatever they are feeling at the time, to be heard and some empathy.
If you are afraid of an awkward silence then don’t be, sometimes just sitting in silence with someone can go a long way. Sometimes just little questions about it can help them open and show that you care.Not everyone wants help, not everything has a fix, not everything has to be fixed on the spot, forcing someone will only make them double-down or close themselves and that can get worse because they’ll stop looking for help.
Obviously… this is in general what I used to do, everyone is different so each person requires a different approach,
Not the person you replied to, but just listening and allowing the person to express themselves and feel heard goes a long way. Getting it all out to someone and not being bottled up inside your own head can be a huge relief, even if the problem itself remains the same.
The instinctual reaction is to want to offer fixes. However, whatever the hearer thought of in five seconds, the sufferer probably also already thought of, and spent days/months/years attempting to make it work and it just didn’t, and now the listening session gets diverted into kind of an argument where the suffered has to justify they have already put in sufficient effort to the fix the listener is pushing that it’s not worth continuing on that road.
I have a very different friend group. Yeah people still like to project success and their kids whatever at the moment. But even that’s only my local friends. Many of us love to talk shit about the state of the country/world and try to take care of each other through mental and emotional issues.
It’s funny, I generally prefer to talk to a woman professionally, but I’d rather talk to a man friend about specific emotional problems. Of course I’m lucky to have a wife I would talk about most of these things with, but not everyone has a good partner.
When i was a kid it was the opposite… but in my adult years it’s been overwhelmingly women that tried to enforce masculinity on me any time I stepped out of the bounds of masculinity and did something feminine (wear feminine clothes, cry, make a comment getting hit on by men to name a few). I was a closeted trans woman in denial which made it extra annoying whenever it happened. Now that I’m out the women in my life have been extremely supportive so there is that. However whenever I go out in full femme with outfit and make-up I noticed it’s women who stare at me, had one lady look me up and down three times pretty deliberately while standing 4ft away from me. I don’t always see it as malicious (not that i would care), more like they’re curious or maybe even liking fit. But it’s an interesting contrast compared to men who seem to give me almost no mind or attention by comparison. It was something I didn’t expect.
You or @[email protected] in somewhere like the SF Bay Area, California?
Curious cuz this ain’t cool and I dare say my circles ‘round these decently progressive parts would concur
Wait you know people here who have genuine opinions they share and aren’t just being performative?
My wife makes way more than me, with the potential to be sole provider in less than 5 years. I told her id love to stay home and take care of the house/kids. She got offended, and said itd probably end our marriage because that wouldnt be masculine.
Shes always been a big proponent for gender equality… i guess she always only ever thought of one gender
Take precautions. Seriously. Economic abuse is just as if not even more common than physical abuse. And you already know she’s got emotional abuse locked and loaded.
lolwut y she so going so 1950s on you
Taking care of the kids is a masculine thing to do! 💪
Start wearing a frilly pink apron around the house. Gotta have some fun while you can
But also yeah, good luck with the divorce 😶🌫️
Man your wife is fucked up. I’d love to give the husband an ejection seat for the rat race
Funny how that works, right? Both my mom and my ex, super feminists, all down with the gays and progressive but were some of the worst people when it came to enforcing my masculinity. My mom is coming around now after putting my foot down pretty sternly more than a few times. But when I was closeted that shit was really fucking hurtful and kept me from expressing myself.
Yes, and many women are strict enforcers of the patriarchy, too. Boys are raised to deny their feelings by both parents, because both parents were raised that way, too. There’s a focus on hyper masculinity that hurts both men and women, and is perpetuated by both men and women. Society has been leaning away from that, but it’s caused a backlash that’s kinda hurting us right now. And some social media is amplifying it.
We’ll get past it, but it’s going to hurt for a while.
Eh, this is all stuff that was written up in the 70s and 80s, it’s gonna take a while before anyone even attempts to do anything about it.
Yes, it was written up back then. Which is a large reason why many more GenZers were raised without those toxic values, because their GenX parents actually read that shit.
So this upcoming generation are being called woke pussies for being raised with empathy and against the historical gender norms, and that’s causing the normal pendulum of conservative panic to swing society in the other direction right now.
If you’ve watched history happen and really read about it critically, this is all very predictable.
Feminism is not and cannot be for everyone.
Only an idiot would believe that masculine rights groups would primarily exist to serve the issues of women.
Why should anyone believe that feminism can solve the issues of men?
Don’t make feminism, a very good thing, into an all-encompassing ideology. You set yourself up for disappointment when not everyone rallies to your idealistic crusade.
Feminism is a tool of thought for liberating women. If you’re trying to use it to liberate men, you’ve got a self-serving ideology at work and it sucks to deal with.
Thou I’d love to hear your thoughts on veganism. Suffice it to say you’re wrong this time champ.
Feminism is explicitly about the social equality of sexes.
In theory, yes. In practice, not always.
Many feminists would not agree with you.
I prefer talking about equality when talking about equality.
Many feminists would not agree with you.
Really? Who? Give me some names and citations.
Read the rest of the comments, there’s a few good examples.
So, people who aren’t notable feminists and who could be trolls or bots? Gee, thanks, those sound like great sources.
Just because one claims that their own views align with feminism, doesn’t mean that it is, by definition- feminism. By this, I aim to mean that there will always be bad apples in any group of people.
So how about maybe not judging the whole of a thing on those that claim to align with it- yet show no similarities to it.
I won’t get into the rest of the stuff in this thread, but I’ll disagree with your first point.
Feminism is a word. An English word. And that means it’s definition is driven by common usage not a book. If the common usage shifts to a toxic place, the meaning shifts with it.
If you disagree I’d love to hear your gymnastics around the word invcel, it’s evolution into incel, and then that further extension to femcel (even though the person who coined invcel was a woman).
Feminism has a static definition. And because of this fact- I disagree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your response.
This is not gymnastics. This is empirical truth. And I’m not getting locked up in attempts to define any whatabout attempts to derail the topic.
So how about maybe not judging the whole of a thing on those that claim to align with it- yet show no similarities to it.
Maybe if the people who are pro-equality shouldn’t grasp onto their gendered term so hard. Kinda weird that out of one side of their mouths so many people will say it’s about equality for all but insist we must use the feminine term over the genderless one we already have
Don’t want to be judged on gender lines? Don’t use gendered terms to describe yourself, simple
Again, you’re judging the entirety of a thing based on a portion of a thing. This is the same thing as when people call all vegans “obnoxious”when it’s just a portion of them that act this way.
Sometimes it even meets that aspiration!
Actions speak louder than words, and despite all the No True Scotsman-ing, many, many words and acts of sexism against males has occurred under the banner of feminism.
I’ve read public press releases from mainstream feminist organizations like NOW proclaiming that the only reasons a father would ever seek custody of his child in a divorce is because he’s either a wifebeater who wants to retain access to the woman he’s abusing, or he’s a deadbeat who’s just trying to get out of paying child support.
There is a reason that the vast majority of people believe in equal treatment for both sexes, but only a small minority self-identify as “feminist”.
Thanks, buddy. A needed statement.
This has nothing to do with men being in position of power, this has everything to do with people having no empathy. If we lived in a matriarchy and people acted the same way they would still be assholes.
Patriarchy says that men can’t be “soft” because that’s a womanly trait, and women are inferior.
No, patriarchy is men having power, it doesn’t define what they can or can’t do otherwise.
By patriarchy, I mean it in the context of feminism, as in the ideology that attempts to rationalize the idea of that men are better than woman, by using things such as religion, bioessentialism, and more. There are many definitions.
So toxic masculinity, not patriarchy.
Toxic masculinity is an effect of the patriarchy. These are the toxic traits that eminate from masculinity as defined by the patriarchy.
But hey at this point we’re arguing about semantics. There are traits that men and women are taught as being bad to do as men, even though some of those traits are actually necessary, or just part of someone’s personality.
So they where practicing the first part. Do we have a word for that?
Are people this shitty to women when they express sadness?
Yes
Stop using “the patriarchy” as an excuse for vile behaviour. Yes, it exists, but it’s made up of a large group of people behaving badly, and one way to break it is to address the individuals one at a time.
Been dumped, more than twice, immediately after crying in front of a woman. Make of that what you will.
I doubt that was it, but okay
Absolutely hilarious lack of self-awareness
more than twice
So, three times?
At least
Or more. Didn’t want to exaggerate, could only think of 3 lately. Been dumped a lot over 4 decades of dating.
But I’ve finally found the one! Took me that long to find a Filipino. (Guys, drop the American women, seriously, I’d never date one again.)
That’s fucked. If I was dating a guy and he cried in front of me it would make me happy to know that he feels safe being vulnerable around me. I would treasure him forever after that.
This is absolutely the way to look at that level of intimacy IMO because that’s how I view it.
The day my dad died, nearly 23 years ago now, was also the day that I knew I’d ask my wife to marry me.
It was a long illness and he was relatively young. We were living together and I had just sucked it up for 18 painful months. Never cried once.
Anyway the day came and I got home and just cracked when we went to bed. I just sobbed in the bed with her. Like a real, deep, deep sobbing.
She just held me and rubbed my hair and I will never, ever forget that.
Anyway about 8 months later I asked her to marry me and we’re married over 20 years now and have a beautiful family together. I love her so much.
And my wife is exactly like you. But just sayin’, in my experience, most women are not.
And I get it! No woman craves a weak man. No woman says to herself, “I wish my man was a sobbing pile of goo!”
Women want a strong man, a man that protects her from the slings and arrows of life. We can be those men and still cry. But it ain’t easy.
Not everyone is a good person.
On a similar note, my ex-girlfriend of two years was ranting about how men do not go to therapy. Then I mentioned to her that I go to therapy, and been going from even before we met… and I will never forget the look on her face, she immediately stopped me mid sentence and told me she didn’t need to hear about it.
She broke up with me the next week and said something like she didn’t want to be with someone that goes to therapy, but one that went.
My sympathies for that rough experience. I hope you have a wider family and friend group that supports you taking care of yourself, and have or will find a better match of romantic partner.
thanks for your kindness, I did not have a support network back then but I do now after moving out to a new city
Happened to me in high school once. Haven’t really been able to cry openly ever since.
I’m lucky I recently upgraded from a biannual sob to a quarterly sob. We’ll see what that does for…
*gestures at everything*
Crazy thing is that I literally just connected that dot in this thread thinking out loud. I never once had the thought that expressing my emotions was unsafe, I just kind of took that feedback onboard and proceeded to not process grief for two decades.
Fuck, I can’t remember the last time I cried openly. I know I HAVE in the last few years, but I can’t remember when or why. Nothing romance related, but I just can’t remember…
You’re fine. I didn’t cry for years, maybe a decade+. Not because of any macho idealism, I simply didn’t.
Feels good when I do drop that oxytocin. That positive feedback led me to crying more often.
LOL, I’m not a whimpering mess, but I can let loose more easily, and that’s a good thing.
It’s ok to cry about sad life experiences… But not about xitter.
A bit related to this, so many times throughout my life when I’ve mentioned I’d like to be friends with, take up lost contact with or just mention a woman has a currently present woman reacted like “you know she has a boyfriend, right?”, “I don’t think you’re her type” etc.
It makes sense that so many men have very few or no female friends, because they experience exactly that. It’s like many women have decided that all men are incapable of being friendly with women without it being about sex or more than friends. We get scared of trying because it’ll just be misinterpreted as wanting to fuck them.
I’ve always had a lot of friends who are women, but the ones who were in my “league” or higher almost all eventually asked why I never hit on them, or blatantly hit on me. It was a weird mix of them being upset I hadn’t like it was a judgement on their attractiveness, and being frustrated because they thought it was an eventuality and were tired of waiting.
But, humans are pattern recognition machines, we don’t even realize we’re doing it most of the time.
Especially for a very attractive woman in her 20s, if a guy is interacting with her, it’s likely because they want sex.
So you can’t fault them for the assumption, but then when they run into a guy that legit is cool just being platonic friends, they tend to pursue a relationship because they see that as a desirable trait. Even just for a FWB thing, you’ve shown that you’re “safe” and it can become a conquest thing as well because they’re not used to the rejection of not being pursued and want the ego boost of changing your mind.
There’s just an absolute shit ton going on, so it’s hard to judge anyone because their life experiences are why they hold their current beliefs.
With your last comment there, you’re like 1 step away from “nobody can ever be blamed for their actions because they are all just meat and chemical automatons on a deterministic path”. I mean, we are. But society can’t work that way.
Nope, not even a little bit.
I thought people gave up on “slippery slope” when after gay marriage happened cats didn’t start marrying dogs…
What made you pick up that logical fallacy so long after even the dumbest have given it up?
Did you stick with it the whole time, or are you trying to bring it back now?
You literally said its hard to judge anyone. I said that’s one step away from impossible to judge anyone, and life can’t work that way. Where is the fallacy?
Also, you need therapy.
As a trans woman who came out the other side… well there’s no modest way to put it- pretty damn attractive I’m told, I never understood why women just assume guys are hitting on them until I lived it.
I don’t even do it on purpose. It’s just that the vast, vast majority of the time, guys are trying to hit on me, and my brain has connected the “guy talking to me” neuron and the “guy hitting on me” neuron so tightly that it doesn’t even occur to me that they might not be unless they prove it through extended interactions, usually over years, of never showing any interest.
And yeah, I’ve definitely fallen for people largely because they simply hadn’t shown any signs of being into me. You’re right that there is an immense sense of safety in knowing they’ve never tried to get in my pants. Unfortunately, that also means, 99% of the time, that they’re gonna say no if I ask them out (I generally prefer to make the first move because it feels safer.)For the sake of example and because it’s relevant to the thread, I asked a dude out who’d shown no interest, and it turned out he was actually attracted to me, but wasn’t interested because he’d been heavily abused in a past relationship and he wasn’t ever willing to give it another shot.
And on that subject, having life experience as both a man and a woman really does open your mind to how differently abuse is treated between men and women. I was heavily abused as a kid, both by men and women, and telling the story before I transitioned, people always desperately searched for a reason it was my fault (even though I was a kid at the time it happened) and when they couldn’t find one, spouted lines like “at least you’re stronger for it.”
As a woman, people, not having knowledge that I wasn’t always a woman, immediately recognize how horrible my abuse was, zero attempts to justify it, and hell, even direct me to support groups (albiet I’ve attended said groups before and they’re fucking useless trauma feedback circles in my experience.)Well, that turned into a half irrelevant rant, but it’s nice to have some of that off my chest.
Oh yeah, gender relations are a mess. The belief of not being able to be friends with genders you’re attracted to is bullshit, and I’m really tired of it. It’s cost me some relationships to the point where I had to make that a rule.
I’m not attracted to everyone, and beyond that, I have a healthy respect for boundaries. Their boundaries and my boundaries.
One note, maybe quit mentioning you’d like to be friends with them and just be friends with them? Mentioning “I’d like to be friends with…” to other people is coded as “Hook me up with…”.
I’m a guy. I kinda get it, to be honest, “let’s be more than friends” is where my mind goes by default, even if logically I know it would be much more valuable/sustained friendship than relationship.
The best way if found to shut that down in my mind is to remind myself that she may set me up with one of her friends in the future.
