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This quote by [email protected] is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
I also see this pinned on my instance.
Always remember that the patriarchy harms everyone
An asshole is an asshole is an asshole, don’t you dare act like it’s not these women’s fault if they have no compassion.
I never claimed it wasn’t. Shitty people are going to be shitty but they feel comfortable being shitty in the way that they are, in public, because the patriarchy has made that normal. I never excused her behavior, I identified it as being connected to a much broader sociological issue.
Hey comrade, I am seriously glad that comment like yours are starting to not be accepted anymore.
I somehow agree with you, the patriarchy harms everyone. But it does not help anyone to slap it in the face of men who are suffering, and also I disagree that a faceless concept has more responsibility than the people pushing it forward.
Honestly, ‘patriarchy’ is a terrible term that leads to so much confusion. Too many people use it as ‘blame men’ and forget that it’s supposed to be about men being culturally cast as perfect leaders and therefore punished for not meeting those impossible standards.
I have high hopes that the spreading acceptance of transfolk will start to break down the weird gender roles we’ve got, and maybe we can talk about some of this stuff more directly.
Thank you for pointing out this. I hat the term ‘patriarchy’. I can see the people here using this term are trying to make a point. But it seems to me, that the wording ‘patriarchy’ hints towards to that ultimately men are to blame. It is also unnerving that feminism tends to excuse problems that women really have is systemic, while trouble that men have is caused by individually shitty behaviour.
I very much would like a society, where every human regardless of gender is being met with the same empathy.
You know, I hadn’t really thought about the benefit that LGBTQ+ acceptance plays in this.
Of everyone who has been so supportive of me, it’s been my queer and non-binary friends.
I am a straight white male with money. While it upsets me to see women saying stuff like this post, I also know that I am not going to blame the women perpetuating the problem, because they themselves are victims of toxic masculinity and established gender norms.
I have a lot of queer friends (being pansexual myself) and I love the general awareness of mental health at least within my social circle (mainly well educated people throughout their 20s). For example it’s incredibly refreshing not to have to make excuses if you don’t feel like being around people that day, instead just being able to say just that without judgement.
Yeah this comment section has not brought me hope. I’ll admit that this may not have been the best place and time for this conversation but it needs to be spoken of, especially to the people who want to hear it least. I need these people to understand that societal issues cannot be solved at an individual level. You cannot simply be angry at a woman for being cold and heartless. This helps no one. The people who perpetuate patriarchal society won’t stop doing it because we get mad at them. They must be confronted about their behavior first and foremost with an understanding of the material conditions that drive them.
Yes, the perpetrators of patriarchy are responsible for its continuity but they do not realize this. They do not recognize the very existence of a patriarchy and this is why the world struggles to fight it. Often the biggest perpetuators of patriarchy are the most harmed by it and they don’t even know. They are as much victims as they are villains. How can we call them responsible on an individual level when patriarchy is the only thing they have ever known?
It’s terrible to see. It’s another feature of the patriarchy and toxic masculinity - blaming the victims. It’s why it has been going on for so long.
In a similar vein: Why do women not report rape? This is why. Because even women have been so oppressed by the system that they will even question “if they were asking for it.”
Where do you draw the line? Where do you stop blaming patriarchy and start blaming the people who have a fucked up sense of right vs wrong?
A man that screams at his wife when he’s angry, that’s patriarchy or that’s on them?
A man that quietly belittles his wife?
A woman that does these things to her husband?
If there’s physical violence I’m sure you won’t repeat your previous message and say that they’re victims as well.
I don’t understand why it cannot be both? Yeah these people are responsible for their actions and should be confronted on it on an individual basis but their actions are also influenced by the society in which they live. We need to confront and discuss that too.
I’ll admit that this may not have been the best place and time for this conversation but it needs to be spoken of,
Hear me out here, but maybe if it’s “not the best place and time for this conversation” don’t have it.
especially to the people who want to hear it least.
Disgusting.
Look you’re spreading a mythologized patriarchy-as-Satan theology.
You may not want to hear it, but just shut up about feminism when men’s issues come up, and listen.
How can we call them responsible on an individual level when patriarchy is the only thing they have ever known?
This is such an extreme definition of total patriarchy that it’s an agency-robbing mythos. “What if every bad thing was caused by a concept?” isn’t a coherent or practical worldview.
Don’t believe in agency-robbing mythos. Don’t spread them, because somewhere in there you’re just giving yourself permission to lecture other people against their will at a time and place in which it is not appropriate for you to do so.
Incedible how unserious you are
You cannot simply be angry at a woman for being cold and heartless.
Yes, we can. Patriarchy or not, there are some awful people and behaviours being described in these comments. And while the “patriarchy” no doubt plays a role in enabling that, people also need to take ownership of their behaviour.
What you’re doing is the mirror of MRAs who pretend feminism means ‘women uber alles.’
You can stop.
Men =/= the patriarchy. Tell a friend.
Some women would be shit to men and women and fucking anyone and everyone even if we lived in a matriarchy. Just like some men are shit to everyone and some men and women are nice with everyoneat.
Assholes are assholes, that’s it.
I never advocated for a matriarchy. People will continue to be shitty to eachother but the deconstruction of gender based discrimination and violence would benefit us all. In order to do that we must recognize that what holds us back from this is patriarchy.
My point still stands, no matter if there’s discrimination or not, some people will continue being shit to others and pretending they’re shit because of the system we live in is removing all their agency. “It’s ok if you’re a bad person, it’s just because [insert reason that is out of their power].”
I never said it was ok and I never denied their agency
Saying something is the result of patriarchy doesn’t absolve anybody (including women) of the responsibility for fixing it.
It’s not the result of patriarchy, is the result of them being bad people. They would still exist under a matriarchy.
Probably far worse actually.
“patriarchy” in this context means something other than you think, I.e. it means a system that upholds gender roles that benefit a (majority male) ruler class, e.g. by encouraging worker class men to go to war for their benefit, worker class women to be caretakers, and so on.
The counterpart to this definition of “patriarchy” is a society with no stratified gender roles, not “matriarchy”.
No.
patriarchy noun pa·tri·ar·chy ˈpā-trē-ˌär-kē plural patriarchies 1 : social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line broadly : control by men of a disproportionately large share of power 2 : a society or institution organized according to the principles or practices of patriarchy For 20 years the country was ruled as a patriarchy.
You actually mean
gender role
A culturally and socially determined set of expected behaviors, attitudes, and characteristics based on concepts of masculinity and femininity. A gender role should not be confused with gender identity, which refers to an individual’s internal sense of being masculine, feminine, on a spectrum between the two, a gender unrelated to that binary, or no gender at all.
This is exactly why its such a bad word to use to describe this, it automatically puts people on the defensive and needs to be explained to people that it doesn’t mean what the word means (rule of the fathers).
Yes. It is their fault that they’re supporting the patriarchy.
Stop deflecting blame from shitty women. There are shitty women who do shitty things and “the patriarchy” does not excuse their behavior.
Stop worshiping the patriarchy. The patriarchy is not God. The patriarchy is not to blame for every shitty thing a shitty woman does.
Sometimes women are shitty and you make the problem worse by telling everyone it’s not their fault because the patriarchy is God in your idiot doctrine.
Idk why you thought I was doing any of that. What I meant was this woman feels that it is normal or okay to act in the way that she is because the patriarchal society in which we live makes that normal. It is not an excuse, it is an explanation and identification of a much broader issue.
Idk why you thought I was doing any of that.
Sounds like an opportunity for introspection for you, then!
Thank you for making me introspect about my snarkiness on Lemmy. You’ve helped me see how much of a dipshit it makes me look like
so are these women naturally “shitty” this is a deterministic take. a more is grounded in material approach is the patriarchy / modern culture teaches us to behave in certain ways etc, women need a strong man as women are weak according to western cultural norms.
You are correct that I was speaking glibly and that when I said “shitty woman” I could have said “a woman who happened to be acting shitty.”
Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they’re taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn’t a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.
If patriarchy is the cause of literally everything in gender interaction, it’s not very useful as a concept.
That’s like saying the road is the cause of all car crashes.
The road is the context in which all (mostly all) crashes occur, its contours or grading maybe contributed to the crash, but it almost never would be the sole cause.
Most people who just wave their hands and say “patriarchy” are parrots who just know they get a cracker when they say the line. It’s resulted in trash discourse.
It’s resulted in people just tuning out when they hear the word, too.
Kinda sucks, because it’s a really useful foundation to talk about society through a certain lens. It’d be hard to talk about traffic if I didn’t understand what a road was.
But, I admit, many people who pipe up with “patriarchy” don’t really want to talk any farther, and that does make dealing with those people pretty frustrating. Like if a cop showed up at every crash and excitedly pointed out the existence of a road and then left.
I am biased because I own (small) parrots who genuinely love crackers, and any reference to that cute behavior is positive for me. But I believe this would be a great metaphor even if I weren’t biased in favor of parrots.
On the contrary, the term is performing exactly as designed - blame men for men being shitty (toxic masculinity), and blame men for women being shitty too (internalized misogyny).
How is “women are also perpetuating and engaging in the patriarchy, this is a problem” blaming it on men? “The Patriarchy” is not blaming stuff on men, it’s a descriptor of the gender-roles-system we live in and people of all genders can be perpetuators of its toxic aspects.
Because “patriarchy” isn’t just a neutral, ivory-tower descriptor of a system of gender roles. Just look at Twitter, or Reddit - the number of feminists using the word patriarchy on a daily basis to blame men far outnumber the tiny number of academic feminists that (supposedly) use the term without misandrist intent. Words’ meanings are determined by their use, and going by its use, “patriarchy” is a misandrist term that is used to blame men for all of society’s ills, which has resulted in demonstrable negative societal outcomes for men and boys. It’s naive or disingenuous to act otherwise.
And even among more academic feminist circles, it’s naive to think the term “patriarchy” isn’t being used in a misandrist way by a significant percentage of feminists - radical feminism, just to target the low-hanging fruit, is entirely organized around mistaken and harmful ideas of “male supremacy”, and as a result most of feminism’s terminology is also entirely organized around men being the oppressor, and women being the oppressed.
This is where we get the real brilliance of feminist thought: “academic”, “neutral” terms like “toxic masculinity” and “internalized misogyny” ensure that all discourse about society’s ills are entirely framed around oppressor/oppressed language (where, of course, men are always the oppressors and women are always the oppressed), which, as discussed above, ensures that the public at large will blame men for literally anything that goes wrong. And, of course, this is exactly what we see on social media, from both men and women. It’s a brilliantly designed system. Horrible, but brilliant.
The consequences of this inherently misandrist philosophy have been felt throughout society for decades. There are practically no domestic violence shelters or rape resources for men, even though men constitute almost half of rape victims. Men having lower rates of graduation from both high school and college (and of course all of the feminism-funded scholarships are for women, even though they’re currently approaching 60% of graduates - gEnDeR eQuALiTy). Generations of boys having now grown up internalizing this misandry, being told that they’re inherently aggressive rapists and being forced to take re-education classes. The results of this widespread, societal internalized misandry are clearly visible here in this thread.
And, of course, as mentioned above, the incredible brilliance of the system is that all of these failings (and countless, countless others) are conveniently deemed due to the totally neutral academic term “patriarchy”, and not due to feminists pushing misandrist policy for decades that have had demonstrable negative outcomes for men. So, out here in the real world, men get blamed for women’s problems, and they get blamed for their own problems as well.
Feminism doesn’t have a monopoly on gender equality, as much as people claim it does (“If you believe in gender equality, you’re a feminist whether you like it or not!”). Feminism is fundamentally built on decades of misandrist philosophical baggage, and it’s time we threw it all out, burned the system down, and started over with a philosophy that’s actually dedicated to gender equality, from the ground up.
It’s just the broad description of the gender roles/hierarchy present in our society. Being aware of them and how they negatively impact gender interaction seems fairly useful to me. Usually it’s helpful to understand the current structure of something and how that’s causing problems to make any meaningful and positive changes.
I have to push back here and say that I think that the “emotions are feminine” explanation gives the whole picture. There’s also instrumentalization of men.
We’re all familiar with objectification, the tendency of (some) men to ignore women’s agency, and treat them as objects for their own use. On the flip side, in my experience, (some) women instrumentalize men. That is, treat men as agents to be used as tools to achieve their own goals. As a result, I think that (some) women use men as a bulwark against the stresses and existential terror of human existence, or sometimes even literally, like a bodyguard, or the one who has to deal with the spider in the house.
You want your vacuum cleaner to suck up dirt when you pull it out of the closet, and then disappear quietly back in there once the job is done. You don’t want to have to change the bag, and clean the motor, and replace the belt every time. More metaphorically, you don’t want to find out that your emotional ramparts against a scary world are built on sand, and that’s what kind of happens when (some) women find out that their partner has fears and weaknesses, too.
I’ve heard the same story many, many times from men whose partners begged them to open up emotionally, only to flee once they found out that those emotions included fears and self-doubt. It doesn’t make sense that they’d do the first part, if emotions were unattractive, per se.
I think you’re quite correct in this analysis as well. Historically, women have often had to depend on a husband for financial security and to be this instrument of protection. This archetype of the provider and protector husband is still baked into our patriarchal culture and leads women who don’t deconstruct this attitude to treat their male partners as you describe, and men in straight marriages to feel this burden alone. I’ve seen it often lead to insecurity and self doubt among husbands who feel they can’t live up to this impossible expectation, who also for the reasons widely discussed in this thread don’t feel able to express this insecurity and doubt, or are punished for doing so because it goes against their culturally-prescribed gender role of the strong male protector.
It could also be because they view their husband/partner as a means to an end, rather than a person with feelings.
At some point, the individual needs to take responsibility for their actions, society is made up of individuals after all.
Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they’re taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn’t a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.
Just because you were taught to say stupid things on the Internet doesn’t make them not stupid.
You chose to say a stupid thing on the Internet, and you’re responsible for that choice.
Don’t erode your agency. Don’t erode the agency of women.
Just because you think women are mindless slaves implanted with doctrine by whatever they are taught doesn’t mean we all have to believe it.
The patriarchy isn’t “men are harming people all by themselves.” It’s the gender roles and gender hierarchy that both men and women perpetuate.
This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up. You don’t have to center feminism in a topic about how masculine emotions are belittled by women, undermined by women, and appropriated by women to further their agenda. If you do, you suffer the consequences.
This is an opportunity for you to listen.
Pointing out shitty behavior is systemic doesn’t absolve the person of their responsibility for that behavior. It helps illustrate the issue is systemic and not just some crazy one off occurrence. It also gives an angle of attack on solutions to the systemic problem.
The patriarchy is just as much a men’s lib issue as it is a feminist issue. The gender roles and hierarchy harms men. Women being shitty to a guy for expressing emotion is an example of just that.
You should really learn to ‘respect my no.’
This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up.
I understand that you feel discomfort when men talk about the alienation of experiencing women being shitty, but you’re out of your lane now.
Blaming the patriarchy online does nothing to further your agenda, it just makes you look like someone who appropriates issues thoughtlessly and carelessly, as well as selfishly.
I understand that in your limited viewpoint “abolishing patriarchy” will solve every problem men have, but I think that’s stupid. Your ideology is not a cure; the only thing your spreading it cures you of is your own discomfort, and that’s inappropriate here.
This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up.
There wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up either. But you chose to speak up so you should expect some push back. Looking at how you’ve presented yourself so far I seriously doubt you’ll listen to me, so I’ll just put my argument very plainly. Nobody should listen to you because you refuse to listen to anyone else.
You haven’t addressed anything the other person has said. All you’ve pretty much done is try to put words in their mouth so you could counter an argument that was never made. There’s no discussion here, it’s just you screaming into the void and the other person wanting to believe you’re a normal person.
But people are listening to me.
You haven’t addressed anything the other person has said.
So?
My point is about the nature of their statement and how it centers women in a topic that is about how when men speak about feelings women center a feminine perspective.
Just because you’re not listening doesn’t mean others aren’t.
Edit: I’m not saying the patriarchy isn’t real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you’re just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.
“neoliberalism is when you want to dismantle patriarchy”
Sure, shift blame away and never help feminism 101 when it comes to men
Please read the rest of my comments
I am a man, I have been hurt by women who would not have done so if the society in which they live did not deem it normal and ok. While these women are responsible for their actions and should do better, they would not have acted this way if patriarchal society didn’t deem men to be lacking in emotion or “emotionally strong”.
You are doing everything but blame your abuser, you’ve literally shifted the blame to society itself
You can blame the abusor and want a society that would not create them
Exactly. All of the internalized misandry in the comments here is really disheartening.
What do you expect from a feminist perspective? Their philosophy already has an answer and that answer is men are the oppressors and women the eternal victim. I grew up the only man in a family of women, it was hell. I was always too loud, too big, too expensive because I couldn’t wear my sisters hand me downs and once the mental health issues being hammered into a mold I don’t fit began to crop up. Feminism contributed more to my suicidal young life than anything else. The only reason I am alive today is I found male friends, even the toxic ones helped more than feminists ever did. My toxic friends taught me to stand up for ME. Feminists told me to shut up and let people abuse me, to smother my sense of right and wrong.
I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
I’m still surprised people use the old definition of “incel” considering that the connotations changed to “radical misogynist” or “terrorist” in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn’t be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn’t get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it’s almost slanderous.
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you’re ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don’t.
As for people saying you’re an incel… I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are “involuntarily celibate”. This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term “incel” but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
Thank you. That means a lot. I guess that’s the part I’m most uncomfortable with - why is expressing emotion seen as vulnerability? It’s one of our most effective methods of communication, particularly of empathy.
A lot of people are deathly afraid of self reflection, of thinking about themselves, about their own behavior and how it affects others. Because if you reflect on it, you might come to the conclusion that you have to change something about yourself. And that is hard work, that a lot of people simply don’t want to do (which I think is the reason for many things going wrong in the world). Being able to express emotion is a sign of the ability to self reflect, to be aware of how one feels and being able to communicate that. In a way it makes people aware of their own shortcomings, which is why they want to avoid it.
I think that maybe a different way to look at it would be to ask: why is vulnerability a bad thing? Everyone has emotions. Everyone is impacted and affected by things. To use your situation as an example - your partner betrayed you. You SHOULD be vulnerable to that. The fact that they can’t fathom having that level of vulnerability, to the point that they claimed you were trying to manipulate them, is the problem. That kind of emotional invulnerability is what leads people to do the kinds of things they did.
I truly believe that being vulnerable in front of someone, especially when they have hurt you so much, is strength. Showing someone how much they hurt you is really hard. Find people you can be vulnerable with. They’re out there.
you know her better obviously but sometimes you’re too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn’t genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it’s just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time.
These are tactics all abusers use all. It has nothing to do with gender. You just only observe men. Spend time looking at women abusers like shitty moms.
did you not read anything before or after that quote? we were already talking about a woman doing it. this is me talking about, in response to their comment about whether it’s about toxic masculinity, that it is done the other way all the time as well, and this way has the added layer of toxic masculinity.
now I haven’t added anything to my original comment but this is what you missed.
That… Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn’t have a defense.
I’m glad your ex is an ex. I believe it’s experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people sing gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
The patriarchy is a system, and it’s both men and women who promulgate it
Then it shouldn’t be called “patriarchy”.
that’s not how things work. some prisoners helping the guards doesn’t suddenly put them at the same position in a prison.
“My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?”
You can’t, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
Plenty of examples out there, also see the “woman vs tree” simile.
I decided to end a relationship and marriage, after being together for 13 years. For the first time in years I put myself first and realised that I needed to be out of the relationship. Coming out of this has been very difficult and I’ve been struggling with my mental health since.
I started dating again, and have had two horrible experiences where my feelings were just put aside and it really hurt. Both of which ended up with the relationship ending. It’s like I’m not allowed to have feelings or struggle. 😞
My belief is that most women belive they want a sensitive man (after all, that’s the cultural norm), until they actually get one. It’s not super cool IRL unfortunately. Though it’s very rare that women admits this to themselves or others. Usually you can find another believable excuse, that fits with the norm. Abnormal sensitivity often comes with extra baggage.
It’s cultural. The problem is bigger than any one person. As soon as honest men speak out, they either deal with minimization like in the meme, or worse, support from chauvinistic incels who invalidate their message entirely.
Thanks to Culture War grifters, men’s issues are unfairly stigmatized as something associated with incels and the alt-right.
Culture War grifters
I really like this phrase. These people need to be called out more often.
It includes people who under the guise of ‘pure feminism’ rail against ‘patriarchy’ whenever men’s issues come up. Feminists are not immune to propaganda.
Sadly, they’re not. Propagandized feminists make all feminists look bad.
Yeah, I agree, this has the beginnings of incel vibes. Just like every generation has good, bad, poor, rich, each person of any fluid gender has the same. Some are mature in their teens and some don’t mature until their 30s. Sounds like his girlfriend was super immature and ignorant.
incel vibes
girlfriend
What
No sex before marriage? 🙃
This whole thread needs to listen to Samaritans by Idles.
This whole comment needs to explain why if you expect a real response other than downvotes.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Thank you for the warning, kind stranger.
I prefer “monument to all your sins” but hard to disagree.
Fuck, i can’t even cry when I need to.
Yupp, have the same general problem. Although maybe not fitting to the stereotype of men and masculinity, I am also basically incapable of getting angry. The only responses I have to stress are shutdown and fawning, I think it (partially) stems from a combination of mostly absent father and an overwhelmed mother with a lot of unresolved mental health issues, that sadly wasn’t able to properly handle children being normal children, lots of essentialist sentences about me being horrible still floating in my head from that childhood.
What helps me with anger is aggressive-depressive music. While that channels it just as a primal feeling, it’s also a good stimming time. Crying is harder, though, although I had moments - some years back I was able to cry for over an hour while with my best friend, that really was a watershed moment in my life, but it unfortunately did not just make the underlying problems and blockade go away.
Other things that sometimes manage to tease anger and tears out of me is watching some true crime shit, or stuff like holocaust documentaries. Getting angry and disturbed for someone else comes a lot easier for me, but even there, the wall is high to climb.
Have you tried old school country music?
Some of the modern stuff, but mostly stuff from 20-30 years ago that’s just sad as fuck.
Just get in your own head and start thinking of past regrets and people who are gone.
Like, “having a good cry” honestly helps, so it’s worth putting the work in to “learn” to cry. It’s flushing out hormones and neurotransmitters, and can lower cortisol which has a whole bunch of benefits.
So maybe not country, but find some music that makes you emotional and start a straight up “crying playlist” to get you in that headspace. It’ll get easier overtime
I know how that feels, and I know a few more people of any gender who have been made that way.
I eventually gained it back, but it sometimes I still feel like I’m close to tears yet can’t go there. Feels like a sneeze that doesn’t come except more emotional.
That’s one of the reasons why I love stories that make me cry. It’s literally the only place where I’m able to do it and allows me to release some of the stress that way.
Then it will come at the worst possible time.
I was watching Arcane on Netflix with wife and her family a couple nights ago. The very beginning, where it deals with loss of family, I just immediately lost it, like I had been shot. I don’t even remember what the show was like, I just cried with my face buried in my hands the whole episode. Totally came out of nowhere, I was fine a moment before.
The room was dark, so nobody saw but my chest was heaving and I couldn’t even try to move to excuse myself because I knew I was about to let out a loud screaming sob. I sat there for a full hour hyperventilating, worried someone was going to turn on a light or hear my breathing.
I have spent a lifetime being “the guy who takes care of everything” and the stoic fighter, always the one encouraging others. I couldn’t deal with the fallout of freaking out everyone, they already know I have anxiety disorder and really, really don’t understand mental health, so if I started acting erratic everyone in the family will start walking on eggshells around me.
So to those browsing down here: “Why do men keep everything inside?”
Because of how you react when we don’t. Your ideas of what it looks like to express emotion as a male is not connected to reality.
I wish I could give you a hug. My husband is similar, he struggles with emotions and has always been “the calm rock.” Everyone compliments him on his patience and temper, he is an extremely chill person to be around. Because of this, he struggles heavily with any time he does not fulfill that role. His self worth is tied to how much he can fix or do for others and in a non-bothersome way. We’ve been together for about 10 years and he’s gotten more comfortable expressing his emotions but still feels immense shame when he cries or breaks down. Your last sentence is such a good point I’ve never really thought about. I should start paying more attention to how he needs and wants to express those emotions earlier. He’s bottled and masked for so long I don’t think he’s ever been able to give different forms of expression a chance.
I’m sorry the people closest to you struggle to give you the space you need when things get overwhelming. Life isn’t made to be easy, and you’ve worked hard for a long time. I hope you get some time for whatever you feel like now that the holidays are over.
Imho the worst are those who crucify the patriarchy at every point, then a man chimes in to criticize calmly the words chosen are inappropriate for the given situation, or outright hurtful, then the radical anti-patriarchy combatants shut down that person as the most vile being they deserve to feel terrible. And that guy ill-adjusts, be it on a personal level of despair or combative misogyny, and the anti-patriarchy combatants continue their cycle, because clearly they were right from the get-go, men are misogynistic and don’t speak about their problems. Rinse and repeat.
Please, don’t be that type of anti-patriarchy fighter. It doesn’t matter that you describe yourself as super leftist progressive, if you behave like crap and reinforcing the worst of stereotypes.
I have noticed a pattern in myself, which I suspect could be true for others too. Namely, that I am much more likely to care about someone if the feeling is mutual. On a rational level, I can recognize that this or that person has had a bad time and deserve better, and I want to help them, but if they are hostile or indifferent to me, I kind of stop caring. And vice versa, if I feel that someone cares about me, I will care a lot about them. If this is the case for two people, it can quickly spiral either towards more mutual caring, or more mutual indifference.
Now here’s the tricky part, how do we influence this trajectory? The only way I can think of is to care even if the other person isn’t caring back. Polarizing language can feel good, to assert yourself when you feel hurt, but… is it helpful or detrimental for the bigger picture? It’s so circular and self-reinforcing. So hard to escape.
I get the feeling that many people argue that “well, when they start treating me right, then I will start treating them right, but until then I don’t care”, and sure, I understand that feeling. But the feeling is probably mutual.Same sentiment here. I always try to care a bit more than the other person so that, assuming most people use proportional caring implicitly, the mutual care can increase steadily.
I often see an issue when trying to communicate your point here, (which I agree with and I also agree that that Patriarchy is a problem), there is no good way to name and call out those as you put it “radical anti-patriarchy combatants.”
Very few are willing to name or talk about “the Matriarchy” or “toxic Femininity.” So we either end up trying to use a long string of less impactful words, (like you did), or we just sweep those “radical anti-patriarchy combatants” under the too broad umbrella of Patriarchy and end up hidden from sight.
So the next time you need to call out one of those radical anti-patriarchy combatants, name them for what they are-- a toxic feminist and are adding to the problem of the Matriarchy. Just as you would call out any toxic male as being a problem part of the Patriarchy. Then sit back and watch them come unglued.
Because we desperately need equality for all and we need to support each other as best we can and when we can. To quote the famous Canadian philosopher, Red Green-- “Remember, we’re all in this together.”
“I’m a man. It’s my fault. But i can change. If i have to. I guess.”
Remember: I’m pullin’ for ya, and we’re all in this together.
Keep your stick on the ice.
Kind of describes the issues for many men don’t it.
There are far worse role models.
Boy you got the wrong lesson from red green, son.
Why are your feelings hurt because somebody was mean to the patriarchy? The patriarchy sucks. It doesn’t deserve your sympathy.
There is no patriarchy, there is an overwhelming majority of misandrists online though.
I mean this is laughably wrong, and says a lot about you.
Wow, that empty argument of yours can be used against you too! Convenient! Zero effort on your end and mine.
Oh, Lemmy may be full of incels… Yikes. Do you all not see it?
I’ll add to the trauma dump I suppose
Got married in August 2018, the beginning of the next month my dad died of cancer. Obviously I was mourning him and was in a shitty place, my then wife took that as me not being active enough in our relationship and decided to start cheating on me with multiple guys. Once I found out and called her out on it, and also subsequently kicked her out all of a sudden I was the bad guy. I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics she was hopping through to think that was justified.
Anyway I’ve moved across the country since then and have met who I believe is my soulmate, and things are amazing with her. Just had to go through sewers to find my green pasture I suppose
Consider yourself lucky you didn’t have kids with her
I lost my little brother last year and I would say I already wasn’t a very “manly” man before that but that put things into a new perspective. It was a horrible time but also one that showed me that I chose my friends and family very wisely.
