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Elon Musk immigrated from South Africa to the US, so I can think of at least one thing that made things distinctly worse in the US at least.
Decades of talkings heads offering an explanation for rural decline, that’s how. Look back to Rush Limbaugh and his predecessors.
The irony is rampant immigration (and our tolerance to it) was an economic miracle for the US, an envy of the world. We’d be facing a population cliff like S Korea, Japan, China or Russia without it. But now that’s coming for us too :(
Definitely a misdirect from the corporate takeover of everything.
I grew up in a shitty small rural town, but while I was in high school I watched the shitty “mom and pop” stores slowly disappear and the local factory vote against unionization only to be closed a few years after I moved away. You know what immediately moved into the fill the void? Wal-Mart and Dollar General.
My dad was so focused on immigrants taking his job and other insane republican economic talking points that he lost that job when the company decided it wasn’t cost effective to operate in the US anymore.
TBH some of the points were right. Democrats took big bucks from corporations too, especially Big Tech and basically anything focused in metros.
And it was also a distraction.
Rural folks should have voted differently, yeah, but it was an easy trap to fall into. I blame propagandists and cowards taking money, not them.
You must have lived down the street from me. We had a few mom and pop joints, two local restaurants, and “the plant”. They didn’t get Walmart but now they’ve got the world’s worst Dairy Queen, the world’s second worst Sonic, and two different brands of dollar store.
The “population cliff” is a made up boogeyman for capitalists. That’s because they’ve relied on population growth for market growth. What’s the harm in population stagnation or even decline?
And I don’t want to hear about young people supporting aging populations. That’s a man-made problem that has solutions. Just not the kind of solutions capitalists can abide. (and if you think about it, it’s a temporary issue anyway).
And I don’t want to hear about young people supporting aging populations. That’s a man-made problem that has solutions.
Well, okay. I have a bridge to sell you.
Look. Everything is a “man made” issue with solutions.
It doesn’t matter what economic system we want or have; fact is something has to put a ton of work into taking care of old folks, unless you kill them off or let them rot. Hope and ideology isn’t going to fix one’s body/mind, and that has nothing to do with capitalism.
…Will we automate the problem away some day, WallE/Star Trek style? Sure. That’s the goal. But we aren’t close to there yet. Overloading the young taking care of the old IS our short term problem, and we have plenty of land to support a growing population with room for expanding conservation, as long as we don’t do stupid shit like ranch excessively and expand oil. Then we can level off the population. But we can’t do any of that if entire counties collapse from the pressure/burden of support.
But okay. Let’s say tomorrow, every country on the planet rises up, abandons capitalism, and embraces cooperative economics, with a magic snap of the fingers. That’d be great.
But we continue to let populations in developed countries age.
Then what?
How does that change the needs of elderly folks at all? How does that change the math of young people needing to devote more and more of their energy to them?
Reducing overconsumption and overproduction will help a ton. We do not need nearly as much stuff as we are currently consuming. In addition, there are a lot of jobs these days that are just… not necessary. Take advertising for example, or all the job positions that are all about how to fuck over the consumers the most, then all the energy and work into fixing it or counteracting it, everything that is done not because it’s efficient, but because it’s profitable
We are far far more productive today than we ever were before in human history. It’s all about prioritization
I wouldn’t make that generalization.
We aren’t even close to post-scarcity in, say, healthcare. Keeping people alive and healthy is expensive and labor/education intense, even without the current structural inefficiencies.
Distributing healthy food is not trivial either, which ties into that.
Keeping people alive and providing healthy food is not as expensive as it’s made out to be. Socialism for the wealthy, now that’s expensive! Elon Musk could feed the entire world three times over! And there are lots of solutions, money just doesn’t back them.
For example, Holland had two issues. College students didn’t have places to live or couldn’t afford places, and they didn’t have enough people taking care of the elderly. So they put them together, the students have a place to live and the elderly are being taken care of. It was just something they tried and the results were spectacular!
The problem in the states is that we don’t even TRY ANYTHING! We have more resources than smaller countries and we don’t even try. We could try 50 different solutions in 50 different states, use the scientific method to measure the results, and then implement the methods that worked. We could even try thousands of different solutions by trying different methods in different counties of each state. But instead, we CHOOSE to continue to argue and bicker between ourselves. What a waste of time and energy!
I agree that the capitalists economy is a complete scam. Americans are so used to having so much land, that we just continue to shit up as much as we want and then move on to shit up another area. The earth cannot support continued population growth, especially with climate change. And even America will eventually run out of land to shit on. Other smaller countries have to respect what land they have and how to use because it’s limited. We could learn a thing or two from these smaller countries.
You also shouldn’t overlook just how much is done because it’s profitable, and not efficient, though
The simple example is of course enshittifying services. But it’s also things like making 30 different versions of chips and candy and so on while putting lots of resources into preventing local homeless people from stealing any of the food they need for survival. Investing lots of research in making hyper-palatable foods that are addicting instead of how to make more efficient logistics towards everyone.
And then there’s of course the part where it being a competitive system means stopping others from making use of your research/effort and sharing things, because that means more and stronger competition, which leads to doubling of efforts and so on…
And I mean, I could go on, but the point is that, if you look closely enough, you’ll start seeing this everywhere. Inefficiencies made in the name of competition and profit seeking, not what is actually good for society and would be considered a job done well. A restructuring of society would help massively. From paying medical specialists more and making their jobs more tolerable instead of squeezing as much profit as possible, to opening up more human resources from other areas of society which could in theory help out more either directly or in the peripherals
We are massively massively more productive today than in the past. There is no excuse
And yeah, of course it isn’t the be-all end-all. But I would argue it would help more than it might seem on the surface. Directing resources towards where they are needed, and not just where they are profitable
In France we have the “30 glorieuses”, 30 years of unprecedented economical growth. Guess who came and worked tirelessly to make it happen? And guess who waxes poetic about this blessed moment in time?
Of course the difference is that at the time, the immigrants lived in slums outside major cities, and they knew their place if you catch my drift.
Population decline has little to nothing to do with immigration. It’s just affordability. Anytime the lower and middle classes (most of the population) are doing well, people have more kids.
Theoretically, it decreases the value of labor, but there’s so many better solutions to that problem.
In a world where AI fervor is already tanking the cost of labor, I doubt you could even measure the impact of immigrants.
This is the part that’s especially amusing to me.
conservatives: “NOOOOO DEY TERK ER JERBS”
Meanwhile, the exact same conservatives: “Ooooooo, AI!”
And outsourcing
That really only applies if it’s difficult for the immigrants to become citizens (ie undocumented) or if their immigration status is tied to their employment (ie h1b) that artificially drive down the value of their labor. The current setup is basically indentured servitude with extra steps.
Theoretically. But. Not really true.
We know who devalues labor. It’s the companies that only pay the bare minimum wage cause it’s the law. Otherwise they wouldn’t.It’s the companies that pay under the table to desperate people so they can avoid paying them the legal amount and often commit wage theft and there is nothing undocumented people can do about it.
Exploitative businesses are the ones devaluing labor.
Sure, but if almost nobody will do the job for minimum wage except for immigrant workers, should those businesses be allowed to exploit those workers instead of paying the wage they would need to staff their businesses?
Even though the businesses are the “guilty ones” it seems more like a policy issue than a business one, as the business will always do the bare minimum it can get away with. Especially egregious with temporary foreign worker programs. Why have programs that essentially subsidize industries that just exploit minimum wage workers and depress wages? And now racist assholes have a scapegoat in the people accepting the bad deal instead of the people who allow it in the first place.
Who pays the politicians to keep minimum wage low and fines for hiring illegals low to non-existent ?
You are right, the laws are not in our favor.
Big business owns politicians and they get policies that benefit them.
They and their families are operating convenience stores 24/7 for about $5/hr because existing Americans refuse to experience this thankless task!
Oh noes!We’re fools to not recognize the humanitarian benefits of Bodega Cats!
I’m really sad that Bodega cats is stuck in New York and more states don’t have corner grocers :( stupid urban sprawl
Live in Manhattan. Can confirm, they’re the best.
Close runner up are the kitties that live in the plant shops in the flower district.
Best I get is a friend adopting feral kittens from her work parking lot :( give them good cats all the love for me
Oh nice, they sell purrennials.
Racism
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I have yet to see any Lemmy nazis, are they coming from any specific instances?
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there aren’t any.
lemmy users just call anyone who disagrees with them slightly on any social or political issue a Nazi. especially if they argue that those issues are complex and multifaceted instead of being a black/white moral issue.
immigration is complex. what is the ‘correct’ volume and distribution of immigration to allow? most people don’t even attempt to go there because whatever answer you provide will get you called racist. should American immigration policy, for example, favor people from Latin America over people from southeast Asia? there might be good and clear reasons why… but if you dare to argue or explain those reasons you are going to be considered an anti-Asian racist. should certain groups based on wealth/income, religion, language skills, etc be given favorable status over others?
The current system has it’s winners and losers already. But even acknowledging that is not an issue that most commentators are willing to touch, because they will be pejoratively labeled for doing so.
When you get into the details of this it’s hard not to get dirty. Thus people only want to talk about it at a very high level where ‘immigration good’ or ‘immigration bad’ is the only discourse.
To be honest every issue is becoming like this on Lemmy. Either you parrot the emotionally satisfying far left narrative or you are the enemy. Don’t dare criticize the left from within, or point out complexities in issues. I prefer the left leaning bent of this place to the alternative, but I’m tired of the lack of subtle thought and intellectual honesty. If this is a place for teenagers to cut their teeth on political sentiment, fine, but I suppose I’ll eventually cycle out because that’s not what I came for.
The explanation is racism.
Because any kind of minority is inferior to white straight people and they’re the reason for every ill in the world today.
It’s truly just racism. It’s worked for 4000 years, since the establishment of civilizations.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - LBJ
Having to hear foreign languages and smell cuisine I’m not used to in my own country is basically a violation of my human rights. Like, isn’t that in The Geneva Convention?
Illegals are KILLING People!
-Supporters of ICE!
I know you’re joking, but illegal immigrants do kill people, just at a lower rate than the general population.
A big part of the problem is that if you’re an illegal immigrant, then you have a huge incentive to keep your fucking head down and not be noticed.
So you don’t notice the vast majority whose only crime was illegally entering the country. Meanwhile, the ones who do commit crimes make national news because some people have an agenda in spreading that type of news.
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Well you see, they are coming here to steal all our jobs but they are also jobless losers stealing all our welfare
Reagan was an evil genius with the “welfare queen” branding.
Hateful branding is always easier than inclusive branding. Just think about how many different words Americans have historically used for black people: all “they” have to do to turn a positive term into a slur is to say it with a sneer.
Don’t forget that they stick to themselves and form parallel communities while also stealing or wives
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These are the same people who were simultaneously protesting “Stop the count” and “count the votes” on election day in 2020.
I agree with the post but it conveniently avoids the actual issue. They are blamed for:
- Cost of living
- Job availability
I’m not saying that they do affect these negatively, but that these two subjects are making life harder for regular people. So when someone sees something like “immigrants don’t affect me”, they just assume the poster is rich enough not to be squeezed like the rest of us.
Capitalism gotta have its scapegoats or else it won’t work.
I’m poor as shit and I’ve never been affected by immigrants raising the cost of living or taking jobs.
Raising costs are caused by greedy business owners raising prices, and the lack of jobs is caused by greedy business owners only hiring skeleton crews and making them work harder for less.
You don’t think flooding the labor force reduces the value of labor? If it was harder for business owners to just replace you, don’t you think that would increase your ability to barter for better conditions, and wage?
On-top of that, do you not agree that flooding the population of an area can create greater demand on it’s resources, like housing and food, which allows businesses to charge higher?
Untill you can show an example of that actually happening somewhere, no. I don’t.
Alright. So you said you’re poor as fuck in your previous comment. So are you telling me there’s just abundant jobs in your area but zero ability for social mobility on your part?
There’s proof of what I’m saying everywhere, but if you’re conditioned not to see it no amount of proof is going to matter.
For me the one major pivotal point was seeing how much new housing we’re building vs the immigration numbers. Another was when I was working in a job with no future, I was at a customer’s business, and it’s a place I had applied to previously, and the manager was complaining to someone about needing to renew a workers visa. People frequently make the argument that immigrants take jobs that no one else wants. Having lived in poverty for years working with other people in my situation, I know that’s not the case. I know there’s ton of people killing themselves looking for upwards mobility.
Another situation that’s more recent. 10 years ago I moved to find work because my local economy was dead. This year I moved back. I looked for work all over within a 5 hour radius of my home city. #1, I wouldn’t get call backs for jobs I had years of experience in.1 #2, There’s no housing! There’s no affordable rental units! - All that said, do you know what else I saw this year? A new immigration program to bring people to my area. - I literally had to move across the fucking country to get ahead in life, to find work, and I’m watching in real time as my city that’s been in a perpetual recession for 15 years gets flooded with new labor.
Are greed businesses to blame? Absolutely! But one of the major mechanisms they use to keep wages low is flooding the market with cheap labor. It’s a simple matter of leverage.
1just to be clear, my KPIs are in the top 95%, my employee reviews are through the roof, I’ve had my old employers pretty much beg me to come back to work.
Long winded anecdotes aren’t proof. That’s why this bullshit won’t matter to anyone with half a brain.
If you can’t provide actual evidence of what you claim, your racist ass can fuck off.
The only racist here is you bud. The reality is… you have no problem creating a two-tiered system that promotes worker exploitation and creates racial underclasses, it feeds your superiority complex. Nothing I said relies on the anecdotal nature of my comment to be ‘proof’. All I’m doing the laying out the logic to see what’s right in front of your eyes.
Also, unfortunately I agree with you, nothing I’ve said will matter to 95% of people. I actually wish what I said would appeal to people with half a brain, but it won’t.
Anyways, you can go back to sticking your head in the sand. Enjoy ✌️
And my god, so much good food
“Fuck you, I’ve got mine”
That’s German and Irish immigrants to the US and their descendants being portrayed as doing the same to Chinese immigrants in 1870
As drawn by a German-American immigrant cartoonist, no less.
There is a TON of anti-immigrant propaganda. Whenever the economy is shit – which it often is now, because of the massive disparity between rich and poor – immigration is an easy target.
It’s easy to say things like market rates for labor are lowered due to an influx of immigrant labor, or that immigrants are taking jobs. There is a good case to be made that things like the H1-B program do artificially lower wages and do mean that there are fewer jobs for citizens – but the spin is always against the immigrants and never against the companies exploiting them.
Yeah, the problem has always been that we’ve given illegal immigration an easy system to exploit by having people out there employing them for less and paying under the table to avoid taxes and insurance. The whole solution that’s happening is equivalent to rounding up drug users while letting dealers go free, it makes no sense. There needs to be stiff penalties for employing people illegally. If there’s no jobs available, people will be less inclined to live and work here illegally.
Why things are the way they are we can attribute to whatever anyone wants, racism, capitalism, whatever. I’ll just lump it under people being shitheads and regular people paying for it.
