Oh we out here making friends in these comment sections today.
Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it’s not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup’s relocation, no?
any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer
Israel is a country of refugees. They came in many waves fleeing from pogroms in the Russian Empire, persecution in Yemen, the Holocaust, the Farhud in Iraq, and so on. They didn’t come to a land of opportunity to become rich like in the USA. They came looking for a safe place to live, not a persecuted minority for once, a place that would have them. Most did not have any other place to go.
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Over 70% of Israelis were born in Israel.
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Many of the remainder were young at the age of immigration, as most immigrants to Israel were historically not single working folk, but already-established families.
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Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
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A large proportion of those remaining are from countries which are either legitimately deeply antisemitic or no longer exist (such as emigrants from the Soviet Union).
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Would you advocate that policy of “Go back where you came from!” for the immigrants of any other country on earth?
Saying that Israelis can be expelled ‘back to Europe’ is not only ethnic cleansing, but utterly insane and racist besides.
- Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don’t really see why you think it’s necessary to attribute that position to me.
I’ll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you’re in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn’t born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There’s still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn’t allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the ‘crime’ of existing.
People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
Okay, that’s great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so… then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There’s your answer.
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race?
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
So you’re in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
I’m sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren’t doing, as Israel’s internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven’t lived, largely, for generations.
It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it’s ‘good’ ethnic cleansing, being in response to ‘bad’ ethnic cleansing, doesn’t make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
“Oh, it’s only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!”
Christ. I guess Israel didn’t engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some ‘good Arabs’ stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that’s not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh… you’re taking problem with that. Because it’s ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
You are a bad joke.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
… because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
I’m sorry, you’re making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What’s the difference here, exactly?
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
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The people it’s colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
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Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, from Israel, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Alright, let me quote you:
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers?
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Seems like people assume that end of WW2 signaled some magic switch in European antisemitism.
Jews often couldn’t return home, because it was either destroyed or other people settled here. Some stories ended in murders of said Jews trying to return home.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
That said, modern Israel is a fascist country. But those that doubt reasons for its very creation are absolutely misled.
Israel didn’t ‘have’ to happen at that point. Israel ‘happening’ has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought ‘real’ and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
I do not doubt that Zionism as a project is evil, with parts that go about removing Arabs from Palestine.
But I still doubt it would succeed as it did if interwar and WW2 antisemitism spike didn’t happen (and not like it was all good pre-WW1, Russian Beilis trial as prime example).
It “had” to happen simply because everyone was keen on giving Jews ample reasons not to stay where they were chronically unsafe.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
So you’re either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return? This is just Imperialism and Apartheid with extra steps.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
… how much ‘compensation’ do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return?
Yes, they should.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
Can’t wait til you find out that your own land was once owned by another nation. Can’t wait til we dissolve Germany, strip all the land from the so-called ‘Germans’ which inhabit it, and send ‘foreign’ Germans back to the land they came from, those filthy immigrants.
… how much ‘compensation’ do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_Conference
The Conference continually negotiates to expand and liberalize eligibility criteria in order to include additional victims in the programs. In 1978, after 25 years of payments, the total Federal Republic of Germany compensation payments amounted to 53 billion Deutsch Marks.[7] Payments from some programs continue to this day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Restitution_Laws
The BErG/BEG deals with compensatory payments for suffered personal damage, while the BRüG covers restitutions for expropriated property. Claimants had to file their claims in order to receive payments; the term for filing claims under the BEG expired on 31 December 1969.[1]
After the fall of the German Democratic Republic and the reunification of Germany in 1990, German authorities had to wrestle with the enormous complexity of applying these laws and former GDR law in addressing property claims.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung
The sum would amount, through the years, to over 100 billion Deutsche Mark.
To give a ballpark, lets assume 1975 as the baseline for the inflation.
Using this calculator this is equivalent to about 172 billion Euros in todays value.
Note that this sum does not included the houses and land, that was returned to its rightful Jewish owners or their inheritors.
As for “my own land”. I don’t own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
Wiedergutmachung (German pronunciation: [viːdɐˈɡuːtˌmaxʊŋ] ⓘ; German: “compensation”, “restitution”, lit: “make good again”) refers to the reparations that the German government agreed to pay in 1953 **to the direct survivors of the Holocaust, and to those who were made to work at forced labour camps or who otherwise became victims of the Nazis. **
As of 2012, the Claims Conference had administered the following programs, which provide direct payments to Jewish victims of Nazi persecution.
The German Restitution Laws were a series of laws passed in the 1950s in West Germany regulating the restitution of lost property and the payment of damages to victims of the Nazi persecution in the period 1933 to 1945.
I ask about modern Germany paying out to descendants of Holocaust survivors, which was the claim you made, specifically, in attempting to attack Israelis born in Israel as ‘not real’, and you point me to Germany paying out money to literal Holocaust survivors. Fantastic. Definitely not bullshitting to justify deeply antisemitic ideas. Perhaps you and Elon Musk would get along well.
As for “my own land”. I don’t own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
What makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
The restitution of stolen property also goes to the descendants.
The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, or Claims Conference, represents the world’s Jews in negotiating for compensation and restitution for victims of Nazi persecution and their heirs.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I apologize for actually reading the article. Do you know what an ‘heir’ is, or do you think it’s just any descendant?
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
And I find it shocking that you’re repeating antisemitic lines about deporting Jews to the land of their ancestors straight out of the Nazi playbook, but here we fucking are.
Again, what makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
Removed by mod
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Lord.
You literally have been doing that lmfao
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don’t know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
… yes.
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
Great. Fucking fantastic. Glad we’ve learned absolutely nothing.
Fucking insanity.
… yes.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland, Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded? You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
“People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!”
What the ever-loving fuck. You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland,
Nice try, but that’s not what you’re saying here. If I may quote you in this very same fucking comment after it was pointed out that expelling people based on their ethnicity is actually kind of fucking horrific:
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded?
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
No, no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
“Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!”
Fucking lunacy.
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who’s doing it. Removing an occupying force…ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza…not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
“People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.”
Is what I responded too…your hysterics are not an argument.
People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!"
Lol, who is calling for a genocide of Israelis? Your definition of ethnic cleansing is also not on solid ground. Deporting the colonizing forces of a hostile state who is actively doing a genocide isn’t exactly an "ethnic cleansing ".
You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Again…with the hyperbole. Plus I never even advocated the removal of Jews from Israel. I said I can understand why Palestinians would want that.
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
Again… You are conflating nationality with ethnicity…which is why ethno-states are wrong. Russians didn’t kill Germans because of their ethnicity, they killed Germans because the German nation did so many war crimes during their invasion.
no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You’re conflating ethnic cleansing with genocide… And you are utilizing a very dubious definition of ethnic cleansing to begin with.
Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!"
Oh yeah…because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Again, I don’t really think you are acknowledging the fact that an apartheid ethno-state is genociding a people who used to own the land that ethno-state is founded upon.
Is really that hard to understand why a Palestinian would want Israelis to go away?
By the way, labeling decolonization as genocide is an age old tactic of those who benefit from colonialism
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who’s doing it. Removing an occupying force…ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza…not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
I literally call Israel’s actions genocide several times in this very thread.
Do you need a remedial literacy class or something?
Oh yeah…because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Jesus fucking Christ. Thank you for demonstrating my point, Mirror Hasbara.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants?
No, but I would 100% support a policy of “Anyone who the Hague or Israel (ha, my enemy’s enemy) suspects of crimes of any sort gets a free ticket and a trial anytime either of them want to make a check of things.”
Once people have established roots in a place, uprooting them should only be done by proper channels or in the most extreme of circumstances. Germans in Argentina, whatever their ideological background, are not a serious threat to the polity; the polity must deal with them as it would deal with any foreign immigrants, not suddenly decide that “Bad Ethnicity” must be deported.
Much more concerning would have been the dual issues of the Argentinian government letting them in in the first place, and, for that matter, specifically assisting Nazi war criminals in obscuring their identity and escaping justice.
Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist
Zionist in which sense? Zionist in the sense of supporting Israel’s existence, almost certainly - Zionist in the sense of supporting the insane Greater Israel-style politics of modern colonization of Palestine and genocide, less certainly. Israeli immigrants are generally less sanguine about Palestinian genocide than native-born Israelis.
That… is fair enough.
Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi from the Middle East.
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Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
I’m sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they’re often stupid shitheads as well.
It’s… frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I can’t see descendants of settlers who are en masse being kicked out of their homes and heavily taxed coming together to peacefully build a society with the people whom they ceded their homes to and whom they’re paying those reparations. Can you? How would you go about it without making them so resentful that they either refuse to help rebuild or start attacking the institutions of the new single state?
I see the philosophical balance your solution would bring and it’s what I would want to do if I suddenly found myself a settler/settler’s descendant, but I don’t think enforcing it will lead to lasting peace. Perhaps with an education system that truly integrates children and teaches all of their history, without whitewashing any of it. But I think there’s a very strong cultural attachment in Israel to homeschooling, and don’t know if enforcing public schooling would create further resentment.
It is quite simple. If they dont comply with the law, they face criminal punishment. If they are unwilling to compensate the victims of their land robbery, then all their assets, including abroad, need to be seized and given to their victims.
The sentimentalities of the criminals can not be a detriment to the rights of the victims. Either the criminals obey and work to resocialize, or they face additional punishment.
As the IDF is a genocidal terror organization Israelis, who largely served in that terror organization, are already getting a very good deal, if they are not imprisoned for multiple decades and only the worst offenders are held criminally liable.
They should rejoice at the opportunity given to them to only repay their victims for the damage they have done.
I don’t think it’s very simple at all.
According to the CBS, about 40% of Jews in Israel were born to a father also born in Israel. Given the relative youth of the Israeli population and the fact that it’s been nearly 80 years since Mandatory Palestine existed, the number is probably quite a bit higher (especially because that number only relates to the fathers, not the mothers), but even if only 60% of Israeli Jews are descendants of settlers, that’s nearly 5 million people. Out of a total population of about 15 million people living in Israel and Palestine combined.
A poll published in may showed that more than 80% and more than half of all Israelis support forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and forced expulsion of Arabs from Israel, respectively. That’s five and eight million people. (The poll itself was only published in Hebrew, but I think this is the link).
How can a unified, peaceful country actually be created without “giving into their sentimentality” when somewhere between a third and over half of them feel that way? What is additional punishment? A country cannot afford to imprison that large a proportion of its population, and fines would exacerbate the resentment. I could see some form of community service in the form of war cleanup and having to physically, literally deal with the results of a genocide working to reset people’s perspective on it, but it’s not as though they’re not aware of what’s happening. I don’t know that simply being confronted with the viscerality of the genocide they knowingly support would do much, especially with such a high proportion of the population who do support it.
I’m not saying that the answer is to just give in to the demands of genocide supporters. I’m saying that it’s hard to imagine a workable solution and simply evicting and heavily taxing a whole bunch of people is going to lead to resentment.
I agree it is not simple in execution, but it is simple in the basis of it. Of course that requires external forces to enforce the law against anyone who chooses to fight it.
Ways to mitigate things could be a “Dezionification” process that teaches Israelis about their crimes. However you are right it will probably not go without using violence to enforce the law against Israeli criminals.
I’m sure the Israelis expelled from other countries where land was stolen from them will be pleased to hear this.
So Palestinians must pay for the crimes of others?
I think that’s about the polar opposite of where we’re going with this.
Of course. People who had their land stolen from them should have it restituted to them no matter their ethnicity or citizenship.
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Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won’t feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine… Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren’t any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it’s easy to blame Israel for everything there’s no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don’t like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won’t hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as “good guys” and “bad guys” and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran’s government. There obviously isn’t going to much of chance for peace if there’s a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn’t in Iran’s interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so…
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it’s been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran’s proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So… once again bad leaders.
So yeah… we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That’s hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
This is the same logic as “people have been calling me a Nazi, so now I am calling myself a Nazi”.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
Uh, except for the bit where ‘letting loose’ is ‘revealing that they actually are antisemitic’. I generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such; to find out that a very nonzero amount actually are, and a much larger amount are willing to endorse or tolerate those antisemitic views, is deeply disturbing.
generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such
Aa a German leftist I cannot assume that. For example, German leftists placed a bomb at a Holocaust memorial event in a jewish community center in 1969. And during the hijacking of an Air France flight the RZ separated the passengers and kept only those with Israeli passports or “jewish sounding names” etc. as hostages (German Wikipedia, German article with quotes from RZ members).
Fun fact: two distinct events from 1969 and 1976 might not accurately represent the Left in 2025.
For one thing, everyone who participated in those atrocious acts are elderly or dead now. Most of the Left are neither.
I do think that most of the left wing people that ever lived are dead.
That’s very very true. However, none of the current Left is.
That is also very true.
“No true leftist is antisemitic.”
(Presents several clear counterexamples)
“Well, that’s the exception. They are not true leftists!”
“No true leftist is antisemitic.”
A strawman inventing a no true Scotsman? That’s impressively fallacious 😄
I didn’t and indeed have never claimed that there are any antisemites on the Left. Unfortunately, a lot of people on the Left are starting from the point of “the country (incorrectly) claiming to be representative of all Jewdom has been committing unspeakable atrocities for a century” and being misled from there down rabbit holes that sometimes go all the way to ACTUALLY antisemitic conspiracy theory nonsense.
That being said, those people are a tiny minority, and your two examples from the days of disco and earlier don’t prove otherwise.
If the argument that being antisemitic precludes you from being a leftist, that’s not a fallacy. If you don’t abide by a set of beliefs, then you are not a follower of those beliefs.
I’m not a Scotsman because I’m not from Scotland.
Similarly, I don’t think most libertarians are true libertarians because they don’t care about liberties except their own. And if that’s the definition of libertarian, then everyone is a libertarian.
The mortal enemy of the true scotsman argument: words mean things.
Fun fact: two distinct events from 1969 and 1976 might not accurately represent the Left in 2025.
I never said they did. But they demonstrate that we can’t just assume that people aren’t antisemitic just because they are left(-leaning). Unless of course you don’t want to learn from history.
I never said they did.
You very heavily implied it, though.
But they demonstrate that we can’t just assume that people aren’t antisemitic just because they are left(-leaning)
Sure. Just like we can’t assume that people from Nepal don’t pollute. It’s not the norm or even something of heightened risk compared to other demographics.
Unless of course you don’t want to learn from history.
That’s rich coming from someone trying his best to leap to illogical conclusions based on two events that are specifically remarkable for being atypical.
That’s a very popular strawman you have there.
Israelis have been protesting the war and the Israeli government lots and consistently, including members of the IDF.
Thanks to Netanyahu and his goonies (such as Trump and Starmer) the word anti-semitist has lost all meaning.
Maybe to you? It’s pretty clear. The fact that this inoffensive meme says not to be anti semitic and you had to jump in with a reason to justify and blame someone else for the anti semitism is telling
Antisemitism is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.
Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”)., where antizionism is the opposition to Israeli nationalism.
Everyone keeps conflating these two, and it’s quite annoying. And I’ll say it louder for the people in the back: OPPOSING ISRAEL’S INDISCRIMINATE GENOCIDE IS NOT ANTISEMITISM. It is in no reference to Jews, either as a religion or a race, it is towards the Israeli government and their nationalistic followers that allow for the slaughter of men, women, and children.
Everyone keeps conflating these two, and it’s quite annoying. And I’ll say it louder for the people in the back: OPPOSING ISRAEL’S INDISCRIMINATE GENOCIDE IS NOT ANTISEMITISM. It is in no reference to Jews, either as a religion or a race, it is towards the Israeli government and their nationalistic followers that allow for the slaughter of men, women, and children.
No, but as people in this very thread have shown, there are those who use antizionism to justify antisemitism. Advocating for the genocide of Israeli Jews is antisemitic, regardless of the fact that the Israeli government is likewise genocidal.
The answer to “The Nazis are rounding people up in camps to murder them!” is not “Well, let’s just round up all the Germans in camps and murder them.” Likewise, the answer to “Israel is trying to expel or murder all Palestinians from the land of their birth!” is not “Well, let’s expel or murder all Israelis from the land of their birth.”
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I don’t think just to me. Extreme lobbying has brought us to a situation where they are now labelling genocide criticism as anti-semitic and illegal. So yea that builds some unpleasant reflex in people and its clear who is to blame for.
Im extra sensitive and aware of it. I’m indigenous but married to a Jewish woman. She’s in no way Israeli and is not political but she’s experienced anti semitism this past year more than any other. She’s been harassed outside of the Jewish family centre by protests, why are there protests in front of the Jewish centres?? Why do people equate all Jews on earth with Israel.
Not just that, nobody here seems to differentiate between Netanyahu and all Israelis as a whole, yet you guys get mad when I blame all Americans for trump
Well I mean anti semitist people (in real sense) is one type of shit and people who use the word antisemitism to justify their genocidal agenda is another type of shit. I wish we could put them all in the same bag and shoot them to space.
But the fact that I have to write (in the real sense) next to my comment about antisemitism is already demonstrating the damage the dickhead Netanyahu’s and Zionist lobbies’ approach is causing. It used to be a blame that sent shivers down people’s spine. Now not as much.
perhaps even more directly to the point:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitism
So glad the literal antisemites came out on this post to play apologist for ethnically cleansing Israeli Jews ‘back where they came from’ in Europe for the crime of being born in Israel. I’m trying to think of how this differs from the Nazis literally want to deport Jews to Israel, but I’m coming up with a blank.
I guess there must be something substantially different, though, because obviously these brave anti-imperialists would never be antisemites. /s
All of the people I’ve seen advocating that are talking about the people who were not born in Israel.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Typical Israeli apologist, dreaming of a hypothetical genocide of Israeli Jews when there’s an actual genocide being committed by the zionists. Do you ever get tired of being a victim?
Sorry that you think genocide is okay so long as it’s Good Genocide, unlike the Bad Genocide Israel is currently committing.
Some of us think genocide is bad, just on principle. Yes, really.
There you go again, making shit up in your head. Makes me think that you might not actually believe those words and just want to distract from the daily murder of innocent Palestinian people by reframing the poor poor Israelis that are suffering on stolen land. What a joke.
I love that ethnic cleansing is being defended in this very thread and your claim is that I’m making up these responses. Like, do you not own a pair of eyes? Or is it just too much fun playing mirror Hasbara?
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If it’s antisemitic to call out and despise those that support the genocide of innocent children and civilians, then I’m a proud antisemite. That hill I WILL die on.
Pretty big difference between despising someone and wishing for an ethnic cleansing.
I do not think this is the point they were making, like at all.
Is it not? This meme says you’re allowed to criticize the government of Israel, but I’m taking it one step further and criticizing the population of Israel that supports killing babies, children, women, and innocents.
There’s a pretty big difference between criticizing Nazis and saying and entire population should be expelled.
No, that’s not antisemitic in the least. Israel is committing a genocide, and it should be treated as a pariah state and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
What is antisemitic is, as mentioned in the title and seen advocated by people in this very comment section, advocating for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel, especially when combined with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe, like some bizarre mirror image of the Nazis in the 1930s planning to ethnically cleanse Germany of Jews by shipping them to where their ancestors came from in Palestine.
with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi who came from Middle Eastern countries. They are also the political base of Likud and other right wingers. Itamar Ben Gvir is an Iraqi Jew for example. The Ashkenazi (European) Jews are more likely to be center and left.
Of course Western activists don’t know any of that. For them Israelis = white = European = evil, Palestinians = brown = good is the only model to understand the world. Palestinians and Jewish Israelis are indistinguishable just from looks. Both have pretty varied phenotypes from blond to black.
and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
Including Palestinian military action and guerilla war, correct?
Yes. Unironically, critical support for suicide bombing of military targets. The only restraints I have to supporting Palestinian action are moral restraints - ie that while civilian collateral casualties are acceptable, such as during rocket barrages of legitimate targets, civilians should not be specifically targeted.
The meme is literally, explicitly, saying the opposite. That’s not antisemitic.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years, backed by seemingly the majority of the political landscape and the population. Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Either you don’t know what happened during the Holocaust, or you don’t know what happens to Palestinians. These are in not the same, very far from it.
This is Holocaust relativism, bordering on denial.
That said. Palestinians are oppressed and deserve better. Your antisemitic incitement does not help them.
Interesting, what term would you use to describe what has been happening in Palestine and specifically since the last 21 months?
specifically since the last 21 months
This war was triggered by a horrific and unprecedented attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. A very destructive war in a dense urban setting against an extremely deeply entrenched fanatic enemy hiding among civilians.
There have also been war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.
If you compare the physical destruction of buildings with the number of killed Palestinians, it becomes pretty obvious that killing the people is not a priority war goal.
There is pretty horrific rhetoric during war times, which has enabled war crimes.
Any other government would have surrendered long ago. Hamas refuses to do so, despite the immense military superiority of the IDF, regardless of the destruction and loss of life it costs.
Your nonsense reply tells me everything I need to know. Thanks for playing.
fuck zionists, but they aren’t evil because they are Jewish, they are evil because their are zionists.
that’s like saying fuck white people because there majority of Israelis are white.
and so many loud antizionist voices are Jewish.
if you conflate the two (what Israel wants) you just feed into the Israeli narrative that we all hate the jews and they can only be safe in apartheid genocidal Israel.
which is BS.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Palestine’s population has increased every single one of those 70+ years including the years after the October 7 attacks.
Actually, technically, officially
“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).
The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.
It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).
Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.
Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)
Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.
Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.
This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.
You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.
These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.
They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
It’s not fair.
If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.
In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
Are you not aware that Iran supports Hamas? Are you pretending October 7 didn’t happen?
I think you’re being very selective in your reading of history.
Iran is trying to put an end to Israel through violence and colonialism. They support violent oppressive factions throughout the middle east.
There have been land for peace deals negotiated in the past, there’s a willingness in Israel to make peace. But Iran gives support to violent factions like Hamas. Hamas has oppressively ruled over Gaza for over a decade and a half with the support of Iran.
Iran also supports the violent Houthi faction in Yemen which rules over a large part of that country (including the capital). The civil war there has been over 300,000 dead. They supported Assad’s regime a brutally oppressive faction that took a civil war with over half a million dead before he was ousted from power.
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
I’m aware of all of that.
The Arab-Israeli civil war of 1948 (Arabs call it the Nakba) actually started because of the first rejection by the Arabs of a peaceful two state partition.
In the Palestinian mind, right from the start of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the British and the European Jews were seen as an invading force, and the formation of Israel was seen as the entrenchment of that invading force.
Prior to the Balfour Declaration and British backed migration of the European Jews, the Arabs outnumbered the Jews 10 to 1 in that region, and it was unofficially considered to be their lands. They saw the mass migration as an invasion and a threat to their sovereignty and culture, as peoples generally do.
Today only 44% of people living within the territory of Palestine are Arabs, and 52% are Jews.
Based on these numbers it would seem they were right to be afraid.
I think that pre-Israeli zionists literally used the slogan of “Arabs out!” might have contributed to early 20th century suspicions that zionism was a fundamentally invading and colonial ideology. But that’s just me.
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
The issue is that the genocide has been going on longer than Iran and Israel have been enemies. And even if it wasn’t older, Iran supporting shitty factions (which, funny enough, are also supported by Israel - Hamas being a Mossad catspaw from the start) does not justify Israeli genocide of Palestinians.
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And? What’s your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?
The point is that it isn’t a Holocaust and that such a lose use of the word is dangerous
Oh sorry, I forgot. Such serious terms can only be used when white people are in danger. Silly me.
Nobody takes you seriously when you max out on the hyperbole.
And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
Smokescreen for their support of genociding Israelis.
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Interesting, what term would you use for what’s been happening in Palestine?
You fucking sound like an Uyghur genocide apologist ghoul.
I’m definitely not. Israel isn’t sterilizing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians like we see happening to the Uyghurs.
Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
“I just want to advocate for genocide! What’s the harm in that, other than some hurt feelings!?”
Okay, Zionist.
Hmm that’s a dumb reply. Please try better.
Man, you’re the one complaining that it’s not acceptable to advocate for genociding people of the wrong ethnicity because Israel did it first. Not really sure I’d trust the opinion of someone who wants to imitate Israel on what’s dumb or not.
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
Also what do you mean with “the wrong ethnicity”?
I don’t want any innocent people to be harmed, no matter what religion or ethnicity. I do however think that the Palestinians at least deserve their land back that was stolen from them through relentless murder. Equally, hold those responsible accountable.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
You’re complaining that I’m objecting to people who are advocating for literal genocide against Israel under the justification that advocating racist genocide is just ‘hurting Israeli feelings’ and thus harmless and should be asspatted instead. That’s literally your comment I responded to, genius.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
No. In the fucking title I even allude to a one-state solution, which would be to the horror of most fervent Israel supporters. Sorry that I think that genocide isn’t a Final Solution to the problem of Israel??
He likes to equate decolonization to genocide, to him they are the same thing.
“Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!”
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!"
Lol, you are ridiculously hyperbolic and purposely conflating terms to the point where they don’t mean anything.
Once again you are ignoring the fact that Israel is the one who is dictating policy based on ethnicity. Meaning that it is they who makes it impossible to delineate the ethno from the state.
Would it be better if people just said Israeli nationals? Would it be ethnic cleansing if someone claimed Americans should be kicked out of tribal lands?
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Projecting much? You’re the one defending colonialism…
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puts on tin foil hat We’re being played by powerful outside agents (🇷🇺?) who are trying to stoke division that foments racial tensions, genocide, and international warfare, and ultimately inciting instability and civilian disillusionment with western governments and democracy by using money and/or blackmail to coerce politicians, lawmakers, and the media to conflate the difference between perceptions of the actions of a (theocratic) government and perceptions of the actions of historically persecuted ethnic and religious groups (among other simultaneous informational attacks not related to the meme but related to other perceived strategic weak points in our nations and cultures) in order for these outside agents to tactically manipulate the politicians, media, and governments they have on their payroll into mutually assured destruction such that the outside agents end up on top with global domination
No. People are just legitimately stupid.
I hold equal disdain for all Abrahamic Religions.
They are a plague.
Ok… And? The meme is talking about antisemitism not anti-religiosity
This is brain dead thinking that ignores attorcities committed by both secular and atheistic regimes such as:
Stalin and USSR Maoist China Colonial states (France as one example)
And it’s all bad. But I was raised in the Evangelical Church. I read the bibble cover to cover 4 times before I was 15. Was on track to become a preacher. It was the hypocrisy of the church and the people in it that made me into the merrily militant atheist I am today.
Go argue 20th century geopolitical body counts with some poli-sci major. We’re shitting on organized religion right now.
I remember some kid in elementary school once said to me “I’m not racist because I hate all races equally!”
He thought he was super clever to come up with that.
Being well is not a type of disease
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Why limit your distain to abrahamic religions?
How many wars do you hear the Zoroastrians committing?
Pastafarians too.
And weirdly enough Jehovah’s witnesses.Why have disdain for someone wanting to believe in a story? Lots of people do lots of worse lies to themselves.
How many wars do you hear the Zoroastrians committing?
Tbh I never heard of them at all.
Pastafarians too.
I feel like that’s more of a political group cosplaying as a religion for legal reasons and social commentary.
And weirdly enough Jehovah’s witnesses.
They are litterally christians.
Why have disdain for someone wanting to believe in a story? Lots of people do lots of worse lies to themselves.
I don’t have disdain for that. My problem with organized religion is that it gives an easy in for maipulators. And naturally defining an arbitrary dividion into an ‘in-group’ and non-believers leading to conflicts.
And (what the main point of my original comment was) this is not limited to abrahamic religions:
Once a fringe Indian ideology, Hindu nationalism is now mainstream (La times)
decades earlier, while Mahatma Gandhi preached Hindu-Muslim unity, the RSS advocated for transforming India — by force, if necessary — into a Hindu nation. (A former RSS worker would fire three bullets into Gandhi’s chest in 1948, killing him months after India gained independence.)
How Buddhist Nationalism Defines Myanmar’s Politics (The Yale review of international studies)
But one view that hardliners and pro-democracy monks share is that they consider Rohingya Muslims ‘outsiders’ and want them sent to detention centers and deported
We’ve tried a 1 state solution for a long time
It’s probably time to start aknowledging the goal of Zionism is to take land from others, and aknowledge that the Zionist have too much influence in politics.
It’s either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
Should European-Americans all “just relocate” since we occupied North America from the Native Americans?
Otherwise I don’t see how you’re any different than the Israelites.
Well one happened in living memory and people are still living in the houses of displaced people in Palestine.
This isn’t just about land. This about homes, farms, legacies, birthright, inheritances that have been stolen by living people from living people. Not a vague concept of belonging.
Well one happened in living memory
Then we just wait another 30 years and it’s okay.
Settler-colonialism in the continental US didn’t end until 1953. Israel was founded in 1948.
people are still living in the houses of displaced people
Millions of people were displaced in Europe and other places of the world during the 1940s, who never got to go back and claim their lost property. 900,000 Jews had to leave Middle Eastern countries in the 1940s and 50s and often lost their property over the course of that.
Congratz you’re starting to learn how it’s problematic to deport people who were born in the reigon.
Congratz you’re starting to learn how it’s problematic to deport people who were born in the reigon.
Luckily, it’s not problematic or worthy of condemnation to deport people who were born in the region if their government commits genocide first. The Israeli Jews have to learn that collective punishment is Good, Actually, as long as it’s in response to previous crimes.
I don’t think we need to deport the Isralis, but they ARE genociding their neighbors so maybe they can’t live peacefully in the reigon.
IMO the Palestinian families that lived there before WW2 have more of a claim to the land. That’s if they can’t stop killing each other.
It’s either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
Cutting ties isn’t advocating genocide against Israelis though.
If we look at the modern history of the reigon, the Zionist have been the agressors since NATO made the choice to just give the Palestinians’ land to the Zionists, because the Zionists wanted the land and had an excuse/sympathy after WW2.
There hasn’t been a political party in Isreal capable of being peaceful and fair with their neighbors.
If we look at the modern history of the reigon, the Zionist have been the agressors since NATO made the choice to just give the Palestinians’ land to the Zionists, because the Zionists wanted the land and had an excuse/sympathy after WW2.
NATO wasn’t founded until over a year after Israel was. Soviet aid, in fact, was instrumental in saving Israel after it was founded in '48.
There hasn’t been a political party in Isreal capable of being peaceful and fair with their neighbors.
Okay? That still doesn’t justify genocide?
If you want to be pedantic about what NATO was called when the same members were just the allied forces then idk if we can talk about this in good faith.
Okay? That still doesn’t justify genocide?
Jews are not being currently genocided, Zionists are currently genociding Palestinians. So I feel like that’s what is most valid to focus on.
It seems like most of the “antisemitism” that appeared out of nowhere in the last couple months is just a renewal of an IDF troll campaign. The warmongering Zionists get their trolls to beat the “antisemitism” gong whenever they are starting to look bad in the press.
If you want to be pedantic about what NATO was called when the same members were just the allied forces then idk if we can talk about this in good faith.
… Jesus fucking Christ.
Israel was not ‘given land’ by ‘the allied forces’.
It seems like most of the “antisemitism” that appeared out of nowhere in the last couple months is just a renewal of an IDF troll campaign.
It was the allies who gave the land to the Zionists.
The Haavara Agreement … enabled Jews fleeing persecution under the new Nazi regime to transfer some portion of their assets to British Mandatory Palestine.[2] Emigrants sold their assets in Germany to pay for essential goods (manufactured in Germany) to be shipped to Mandatory Palestine.[3][4] The agreement was controversial and was criticised by Revisionist Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky and by some non-Zionist Jews, as well as by members of both the Nazi Party and the German public.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
We can see the landgrab was even unpopular with non-Zionist jews at the time.
Dude you gotta chill. Palestinians are being erased, and Jews are not. It’s really as simple as that.
Supporting Zionists does not help Jews. And pretending any antisemitism happening against Zionists is as bad as the erasure of the Palestinian people is intentionally ignoring the ongoing atrocities to clutch pearls.
Zionists and Isralis don’t get sympathy from me while committing the worst war crime possible.
It was the allies who gave the land to the Zionists.
Emigrants sold their assets in Germany to pay for essential goods (manufactured in Germany) to be shipped to Mandatory Palestine.
Are you… did you not read what you literally fucking quoted? Not only is that not ‘the allies’, but rather independent Zionist orgs making a deal with Nazi Germany, but it’s not giving land, and it’s not post-WW2 like you claimed.
Dude you gotta chill. Palestinians are being erased, and Jews are not. It’s really as simple as that.
Oh, okay, since Palestinians are being genocided right now, we can call for a little genocide of Israelis, as a treat.
Supporting Zionists does not help Jews. And pretending any antisemitism happening against Zionists is as bad as the erasure of the Palestinian people is intentionally ignoring the ongoing atrocities to clutch pearls.
“Please don’t advocate for genocide or antisemitism”
“Oh, so you think the current situation for ZIONISTS is just as bad as the ongoing Palestinian genocide???”
…
Zionists and Isralis don’t get sympathy from me while committing the worst war crime possible.
Yes, it’s increasingly apparent that you’re quite willing to tolerate calls for genocide as long as the ‘other side’ committed genocide first.
The meme itself is fine.
But shilling a one-state solution with it?
Not cool.
Wait, what’s not cool about a one-state solution?
I’m not opposed to a two-state solution, but generally a one-state solution is considered the more radical option, so I picked it to emphasize that I’m not asking anyone to be pro-Israel.
I don’t know what you thoght when typing up the post, but I do know what I understood when I read it.
A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution. There’s one state of Israel and no state of Palestine. And currently, Israel hasn’t show itself to be all too nice to the palestinians, what with the settling, apartheid and recently as transparent genocide as it gets.
What a one state solution will do is keep the current oppressive power structures. Meaning nothing will truly change. The Israeli press has shown itself to be very anti-Palestinian, and a lot of the population is indoctrinated to think Jews are entitled to settle the land at all costs towards the Palestinians.
There are a lot of examples on YouTube of ‘regular’ Israelis talking of it in the most gruesome and off-putting words imaginable. One might call it cognitive dissonance, but it’s pure indoctrination.
And breaking such indoctrination, cultivated potentialy since the dawn of the sigle state, takes both time and effort.
Effort which is most lukely to succeed were the Palestinians given their own, fully autonomus, UN-recognized and in all aspects equal state free from Israeli control of all types.
Why?
Because Israel has shown itself to be unworthy of having authority over Palestinians.
Systematic oppression needs an equally systematic way of undoing it. Any attepmts at molding the current power structures are unlikely to stop the mistreatment of Palestinians.
The current Israel was and continues to be a one-state solution. A failed solution, that lead to the current genocide. The only way in which such a solution would work is through radical changes to the power structures of the current State, or a new one altogether. One with new laws, a new government, artificially made to overrepresent Palestinians to try to undo the equally artificial, but ingrained in Israeli society opression of them.
Previous such solutions have had a very bad success rate. Such an artificial state is truly like a house of cards. A bad compromise. Neither side is happy for a long time - both feel entitled to more than they get.
So in my humble opinion, one could say that Israel has been given a chance to govern the Palestinians. What they ended up doing is commiting systematic opression a d as of late, a very transparent genocide against them.
If you ask me, any goodwill they’ve gotten to that end was rescinded as of late, and anything less than a two-state solution will be rewarding the perpetrators.
Obligatorily: I’m not saying that Israelis are all genocidal maniacs, or activelly commiting genocide. But the state, their state, is. And such a state cannot reasonably be expected to stop of its own accord or by a finger-wag from the UN. Since the figer-wagging has been done consistently for quite some time now, way before the recent escalations.
A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution.
Again, that’s not what “one-state solution” means. “One-state solution” necessarily implies, for one, that there is a current problem in need of a solution; it would be extremely strange to say “The solution to the problem is the status quo.”
When people say “One-state solution”, they generally mean a single state encompassing all of Palestine and Israel with equal rights.
So, there being one state isn’t a solution?
And how would you solve it?
By not changing the fact that there’s one state non-solution out there?
Of course there’s a problem. But you seem to imply as if the problem is brand-new and no solutions have been tried. Not doing anything (or in this case enough) is a solution. A bad one, for sure, but even not doing anything requires some action.
One state with equal rights will not happen. And how do I know that?
I’m acquainted with the history of the Middle East.
This isn’t the first conflict between Israel and Palestine by a long shot. Israel’s had plenty of ample opportunities to show some humanity, humility and respect for human rights. We all know very well how they answered that call.
As I see it, there are three hypotheitical possibilities (scenarios) with a one state “solution” (as if it’ll be anything new):
a) Nothing changes (obviously). Palestibians keep being opressed. The war and the genocide stops, but in essence, they stay opressed.
b) The Israeli government falls. Palestinians take over. The opressors become the oppressed. Again, nothing fundamentally changes, just the roles swap.
c) A magical “middle-way” coalition wins power. All current laws get rewritten. Palestinians get equal rights, and a way to reclaim lost land. Everyone is happy.
I hope you see how only one of these makes aby sense in the real world. One is impossible, and the other a fucking fairytale (read: equally as impossible).
A two-state solution lets Bibi do what he’s been doing (Fascism Lite), while stopping the genocide and giving Palestinians basic human rights.
Anything else isn’t a realistic solution (read: it’ll never work or quickly break down with the current simulation parameters).
I would argue that a two-state solution is equally unlikely under the current circumstances.
But my overall point is not whether a one-state solution is viable, only that it is ideal, and I used it in the title to emphasize that I am not arguing against even people who want to completely dissolve the state of Israel as it exists now, but only against the idea that directly making statements that are antisemitic or in favor of ethnic cleansing is what I’m objecting to.
To paraphrase: I wouldn’t argue it’s a viable solution, merely that it’s the ideal one.
Wouldn’t the ideal solution also need to be viable, at the very least?
While I’m also not arguing against the people denying Israel’s right to exist, I am also not arguing for them either.
And about antisemitism: I’d like to think of myself as against all types of totalitarian control and oppression. I’m also very lucky to not have a personal stake in any armed conflict current or past, which I feel gives me relatively unclouded judgement. I’m also very much against genocide, as I view it as a specific form of oppression.
Now, whether or not I am an antisemite largely defends on how you define the word.
I’d like to think that i’m not. However, that assumes the “classic” definition of antisemitism - having something against the Jews by way of religion or ethnicity and discriminating because of that.
I have something (a lot, in fact) against oppression and genocide. If not supporting everything Israel says and does uncritically and without reservation then yes, I am antisemitic. I do not support Israel’s genocide.
Hovewer, I feel this “new” use of the term is only going to harm not only Israel’s interests, but all Jews (Jews themselves inherently, not merely “their interests”). Abusing the term to refer to any dissent from Israeli policy will only remove all “teeth” from the original meaning. Of course, I wouldn’t want that, but that’s what I not only feel will happen, but is already happening, and it’s not because of me.
As always, Israel doesn’t represent all Jews, nor do all Jews constitute Israel. Much less so if we look at Israeli leaders’ official stance and world outlook. Conflating the three is a grave mistake.
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two state solution is never going to work.
Israel is already a one state solution, as it contols all the territory and if commited to apartheid and genocide.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
That’s what most people mean when they say one-state solution, though.
yhea, was agreeing.
i dream of returning there, once apartheid is destroyed
Inshallah.
I honestly think a one-state solution is the only way to fix the middle east problem.
That state being plasma, and later glass.
Warn the people to get out before the due date, remove the animals and any endemic plants worth keeping, and nuke the whole area into glass so that it remains uninhabitable for thousands of years.
There, problem solved. No more fighting if there’s nothing to fight for. Perfect solomonic solution.
So fighting genocide with ethnic cleansing.
Crazy idea, but maybe we should end our dependence on oil? Wars cost money and we fund those wars when we buy oil. We pretend to be upset when we see the suffering caused by war, but then vote for whoever we think will bring down the price of gas and then pretend we don’t understand why there’s war in an oil rich region of the world.
Though I see few anti-semitic remarks, other than the ones about Palestinians.
You are misrepresenting the meaning of the term antisemitism. It’s a more polite and scientific sounding word for Jew hatred. That’s it’s only meaning, it has nothing to do with Palestinians. Look it up.
Trying to soften and twist the meaning of antisemitism is antisemitic.
In general, or in this thread?
In general, anti-Palestinian racism is more common here in the West, yes.
In this thread, there are multiple people, who are highly upvoted, who are making claims like “Genociding Israelis is okay if Israel committed genocide first” and “Their ancestors came from Europe, so even though they were born in the Levant, they aren’t REAL natives and it’s okay to deport them”, both of which are deeply antisemitic.
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I get the sentiment and I’d agree, but it would be so much easier if not over half the Israeli population is now supporting a genocide. You think they know better, of all people
Yeah, Israeli public opinion is not helping any moral or sane cause. But that’s still no reason for those few human beings on this planet who are still sane to embrace racism.
Shit can I get expelled back to Britain? They got their own problems but fuck, my family is in the domesday book, can I go back?
