Why are those the only options in everyone’s head. China is a mercantilist nation. Why is it capitalism vs communism and no one talking about how Chinese classic mercantilism seems to be doing pretty OK right now.
Why are those the only options in everyone’s head. China is a mercantilist nation. Why is it capitalism vs communism and no one talking about how Chinese classic mercantilism seems to be doing pretty OK right now.
Is it? I mean it’s clearly working well enough that the other capitalist nations are saying their capitalism is unfair. But really it’s a totally different system, and we’re not going to understand it if we just call it capitalism with Chinese characteristics.
I honestly don’t know enough about the Chinese economy to have much of an opinion of it. I was just trying to make a joke because what you described is still authoritarian capitalism to some level, even if it’s working.
China doesn’t even allow its citizens to freely discuss their opinions on its historical military operations.
So unless you only mean they are doing pretty OK by a financial standard, that is NOT okay from the perspective of a citizen that would like to publicly say that do not support what happened at Tiananmen Square, The Great Leap Forward, and other “speak-nots”
They are essentially exempt from even being considered as examples.
Do you always insert irrelevant shit into discussions to distract from the topic?
The discussion is how both communism and capitalism are ineffective forms of socioeconomic policy and that both seem to only benefit those that enforce them.
China won’t even be considered until its citizens are free to disagree with their current dictator. So for now it’s:
I’m talking about mercantilism. China just happens to be the biggest country that does it. Just like the US is the biggest one doing capitalism. Communism isn’t really even on the board so not sure why people like you keep bringing it up.
Okay. Well. When someone posts about mercantilism, you’re free to discuss it there. But injecting it into a discussion specifically about capitalism vs communism?
Because in the modern world it’s really a competition between capitalism and mercantilism, and self congratulating the capitalist nations on beating communism seems like masturbation to me.
Constantly trying to inject a topic into a discussion that it doesn’t belong in comes of as far more masturbatory to me. It’s almost like you just learned what it means and you want to talk about it with anyone willing to listen.
… actually there’s probably forms of Distributism, that might. Just depends on whether we’re talking classic Communism with a one party centrally planned command economy (which is how a lot of people interpret the term still).
Communism is just too broad an idea to agree to blindly, it could be referring to anything from a small scale communal farming co-op to a one party Authoritarian system.
Cool. Provide an example of a fully functional and prosperous- communistic society that doesn’t have some form or capitalism embedded into its socioeconomic fabric.
Oh, and while you’re at it, professor-
Provide documentation on how changing America into this communistic system will work from the ground up.
Because I don’t woke with myth and pretending. I don’t do fanciful what-if scenarios. I live in the real world.
Cool. Provide an example of a fully functional and prosperous- communistic society that doesn’t have some form or capitalism embedded into its socioeconomic fabric.
Could you provide an example of a fully functional and prosperous capitalist society that doesn’t have some form of socialism embedded into its socioeconomic fabric?
You’re asking for a ‘clean’ delineation that doesn’t exist in the real world, not just for the system you oppose, but also for the one you accept as ‘normal’ and functional.
Could you provide an example of a fully functional and prosperous capitalist society that doesn’t have some form of socialism embedded into its socioeconomic fabric?
No. Bust I’m not claiming such a thing exists either.
… actually there’s probably forms of Distributism, that might. Just depends on whether we’re talking classic Communism with a one party centrally planned command economy (which is how a lot of people interpret the term still).
Communism is just too broad an idea to agree to blindly, it could be referring to anything from a small scale communal farming co-op to a one party Authoritarian system.
You’ll have to be more specific.
I don’t see where that claims anything about the purity of any given system. In fact, all it does is ask for “What definition of communism are you using?”
I said capitalism is at least better than communism. Everything else is words written for me.
To be precise, you demanded an example of a ‘pure’ system that the original commenter made no pretensions of supporting, and when called out, you objected that you weren’t the one claiming that such a system existed, implying that the other commenter was (which is demonstrably untrue).
My fault for using the wrong term. I didn’t mean pure as in: solitary unto itself. But as people tend to say communism is better than capitalism or what have you-
They never specify “communism + (other form of government) either.
My original point is: Communism isn’t automatically good just because capitalism isn’t. And as predicted, the discussion exploded into a series of me defending points I never made, as a result of moved goalposts and rhetoric. (Not from you per-se, but I knew the moment I responded to the original post, I would be defending f stupid shit all day).
Not my argument, but I just wanna pop in and say I think a more perfect system -would- be a blending of capitalism and socialism. Something where you have to work to enjoy a certain “level” of lifestyle, but not to survive.
Right. We ALL could make up a perfect system to live under. And we can make that system as realistic as we can so that others can join the dream with little concern or unanswered questions-
But unfortunately, we still have to live in the real world when the dram is over.
If you want to REALLY reduce the definition of communism down to its most concentrated form, “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need”, then not only is communism a successful system, it is the only reason our species exists today.
The illusion of a working system of communism is only believed by those who fall for the hype and pageantry made possible by those who stand to benefit from it. In this, it is every bit the same as it is for those that preach the glory of capitalism.
Think about it. Who is always trying to tell us that capitalism is our best option? Idiot Conservatives who have been brainwashed by their party, and those that run the party. And at the end of the day, what are those that benefit from the conservative party about?
Controlling the narrative to control the people.
And who is always trying to tell us that communism/socialism (forms of government that have failed time and again in other countries with a smaller population and GDP) is our best option, despite warnings from economists saying it will fail? Idiot communist kids that don’t know how shit works and can only argue a point from a mythological what-if scenario. And at the end of the day, what are those that benefit from the communist party about?
Controlling the people to control the narrative.
They both suck. The only difference is what illusion you’re willing to believe is beneficial to you.
Flame away.
And what are conservatives about? Now, who’s trying to have us believe that America would
They’re one and the same when it comes to to what matters.
Sounds like you’re describing authoritarianism to me.
Socialism, Communism, and even Capitalism are not inherently authoritarian.
Also, take a look into the history of CIA intervention on socialist governments. Unless you believe we brought “democracy” to them out of the kindness of our hearts.
But that doesn’t make any sense. Words mean things. When people say “communism”, they usually mean something more concrete than whatever you said. Usually it has to do with who owns the means of production.
Look at the OP and imagine this is ANY form of government and the same thing could be said.
Communist countries have neighborhoods. Traffic. Retirement homes….
It’s nonsense. Just because an argument can be made that capitalism sucks doesn’t mean a counter argument can’t be made that any other form of government sucks.
But this is lemmy, where we all see what we want to see, isn’t it?
I literally did as you asked. There’s no gotcha here. I’m just trying to ascertain whether or not you value democracy or not. That’s a crucial first step to understand why you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of communism. That’s all.
Should people in your opinion be allowed to freely murder one another without consequence?
I’m just trying to ascertain whether or not you can recognize a bad faith question when you are presented with one. It’s a crucial first step to understand why you have such a fundamental disrespect for people that disagree with your opinions.
My opinion of communism is not misunderstood. Nor does it have anything at all to do with one wanting to be ruled by kings.
They are both crap, it just that one is less crap than the other. The problem is that these kids don’t understand nuance at all. Everything to the extreme, and no grey area.
No, but It beats communism any day of the week.
Why are those the only options in everyone’s head. China is a mercantilist nation. Why is it capitalism vs communism and no one talking about how Chinese classic mercantilism seems to be doing pretty OK right now.
Jesus fucking Christ.
No, China is very much a capitalist country.
No, capitalism doesn’t have state control.
Jesus fucking Christ.
That’s what mercantilism is. A promotion of trade with state control. Which is different than the free hand of capitalism.
That’s just spicy capitalism
Is it? I mean it’s clearly working well enough that the other capitalist nations are saying their capitalism is unfair. But really it’s a totally different system, and we’re not going to understand it if we just call it capitalism with Chinese characteristics.
I honestly don’t know enough about the Chinese economy to have much of an opinion of it. I was just trying to make a joke because what you described is still authoritarian capitalism to some level, even if it’s working.
China doesn’t even allow its citizens to freely discuss their opinions on its historical military operations.
So unless you only mean they are doing pretty OK by a financial standard, that is NOT okay from the perspective of a citizen that would like to publicly say that do not support what happened at Tiananmen Square, The Great Leap Forward, and other “speak-nots”
They are essentially exempt from even being considered as examples.
Do you know what mercantilism is and why it’s working well for China? Nothing you said has anything to do with mercantilism.
Do you always insert irrelevant shit into discussions to distract from the topic?
The discussion is how both communism and capitalism are ineffective forms of socioeconomic policy and that both seem to only benefit those that enforce them.
China won’t even be considered until its citizens are free to disagree with their current dictator. So for now it’s:
• Capitalism/Communism
• everything else
•
•
•
• China.
I’m talking about mercantilism. China just happens to be the biggest country that does it. Just like the US is the biggest one doing capitalism. Communism isn’t really even on the board so not sure why people like you keep bringing it up.
Okay. Well. When someone posts about mercantilism, you’re free to discuss it there. But injecting it into a discussion specifically about capitalism vs communism?
A hugely ironic comment from the person who injected talk about communism into a discussion of capitalism.
Where do you think the OP’s point was borne from?
Because in the modern world it’s really a competition between capitalism and mercantilism, and self congratulating the capitalist nations on beating communism seems like masturbation to me.
Constantly trying to inject a topic into a discussion that it doesn’t belong in comes of as far more masturbatory to me. It’s almost like you just learned what it means and you want to talk about it with anyone willing to listen.
Humanist Democratic Socialism does. Communitarianism might also.
… actually there’s probably forms of Distributism, that might. Just depends on whether we’re talking classic Communism with a one party centrally planned command economy (which is how a lot of people interpret the term still).
Communism is just too broad an idea to agree to blindly, it could be referring to anything from a small scale communal farming co-op to a one party Authoritarian system.
You’ll have to be more specific.
Cool. Provide an example of a fully functional and prosperous- communistic society that doesn’t have some form or capitalism embedded into its socioeconomic fabric.
Oh, and while you’re at it, professor-
Provide documentation on how changing America into this communistic system will work from the ground up.
Because I don’t woke with myth and pretending. I don’t do fanciful what-if scenarios. I live in the real world.
Could you provide an example of a fully functional and prosperous capitalist society that doesn’t have some form of socialism embedded into its socioeconomic fabric?
You’re asking for a ‘clean’ delineation that doesn’t exist in the real world, not just for the system you oppose, but also for the one you accept as ‘normal’ and functional.
No. Bust I’m not claiming such a thing exists either.
You made that comment in response to:
I don’t see where that claims anything about the purity of any given system. In fact, all it does is ask for “What definition of communism are you using?”
I said capitalism is at least better than communism. Everything else is words written for me.
To be precise, you demanded an example of a ‘pure’ system that the original commenter made no pretensions of supporting, and when called out, you objected that you weren’t the one claiming that such a system existed, implying that the other commenter was (which is demonstrably untrue).
My fault for using the wrong term. I didn’t mean pure as in: solitary unto itself. But as people tend to say communism is better than capitalism or what have you-
They never specify “communism + (other form of government) either.
My original point is: Communism isn’t automatically good just because capitalism isn’t. And as predicted, the discussion exploded into a series of me defending points I never made, as a result of moved goalposts and rhetoric. (Not from you per-se, but I knew the moment I responded to the original post, I would be defending f stupid shit all day).
Not my argument, but I just wanna pop in and say I think a more perfect system -would- be a blending of capitalism and socialism. Something where you have to work to enjoy a certain “level” of lifestyle, but not to survive.
Right. We ALL could make up a perfect system to live under. And we can make that system as realistic as we can so that others can join the dream with little concern or unanswered questions-
But unfortunately, we still have to live in the real world when the dram is over.
No one’s arguing with you on that. You’re saying communism and socialism are bad when your problem as described by -you- is with Authoritarianism.
You say that Communism and Socialism are Authoritarianism, which shows me that you don’t understand what those terms mean.
You accuse others of living in a dream… Some of the most celebrated people in history are the dreamers. Maybe check your own cup for the Kool-Aid.
lol…
Really? That’s it? How disappointing…
That’s all I am willing to waste my time on. I know this dance all too well. And it’s not one of find worth the effort.
You really just don’t know how to handle other people disagreeing with you without being an enormous cunt, huh?
ROFL! The irony.
I simply disagreed and then issued a counter argument, and now I’m accused of not knowing how to handle someone disagreeing with me?
This is why people don’t take you seriously. Grow up and learn how adult disagree. Then learn how not let this hurt you personally.
If you want to REALLY reduce the definition of communism down to its most concentrated form, “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need”, then not only is communism a successful system, it is the only reason our species exists today.
What -is- communism to you?
The illusion of a working system of communism is only believed by those who fall for the hype and pageantry made possible by those who stand to benefit from it. In this, it is every bit the same as it is for those that preach the glory of capitalism.
Think about it. Who is always trying to tell us that capitalism is our best option? Idiot Conservatives who have been brainwashed by their party, and those that run the party. And at the end of the day, what are those that benefit from the conservative party about?
Controlling the narrative to control the people.
And who is always trying to tell us that communism/socialism (forms of government that have failed time and again in other countries with a smaller population and GDP) is our best option, despite warnings from economists saying it will fail? Idiot communist kids that don’t know how shit works and can only argue a point from a mythological what-if scenario. And at the end of the day, what are those that benefit from the communist party about?
Controlling the people to control the narrative.
They both suck. The only difference is what illusion you’re willing to believe is beneficial to you.
Flame away.
And what are conservatives about? Now, who’s trying to have us believe that America would
They’re one and the same when it comes to to what matters.
Do we have a Lemmy equivalent to iamverysmart because ffs…
You didn’t even come close to answering the question. You didn’t say anything about who owns and benefits from production.
Sounds like you’re describing authoritarianism to me.
Socialism, Communism, and even Capitalism are not inherently authoritarian.
Also, take a look into the history of CIA intervention on socialist governments. Unless you believe we brought “democracy” to them out of the kindness of our hearts.
And yet they are.
Good argument. I yield to you.
(/s just in case)
Didn’t answer the question.
Oh I did.
And your response is exactly what I expected. Thanks for playing.
This is a terrible definition that could be applied to any form of government the speaker dislikes.
Imagine that. It’s almost like you get what I’m trying to say.
But that doesn’t make any sense. Words mean things. When people say “communism”, they usually mean something more concrete than whatever you said. Usually it has to do with who owns the means of production.
Look at the OP and imagine this is ANY form of government and the same thing could be said.
Communist countries have neighborhoods. Traffic. Retirement homes….
It’s nonsense. Just because an argument can be made that capitalism sucks doesn’t mean a counter argument can’t be made that any other form of government sucks.
But this is lemmy, where we all see what we want to see, isn’t it?
Come on, eli5 communism. I want to know what these idiot youth are imagining, not your opinion about it.
Simple question here. No gotcha: Do you believe that people deserve to be ruled by kings?
I find the choice to use the word “deserve” to be a bait into the very “gotcha” you’re claiming to not be trying.
Reword that to what you’re actually trying to get at, and I’ll bite.
Should people, in your opinion, be ruled by kings?
I’m done entering bad faith questions in this thread.
I literally did as you asked. There’s no gotcha here. I’m just trying to ascertain whether or not you value democracy or not. That’s a crucial first step to understand why you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of communism. That’s all.
Fair enough…
Should people in your opinion be allowed to freely murder one another without consequence?
I’m just trying to ascertain whether or not you can recognize a bad faith question when you are presented with one. It’s a crucial first step to understand why you have such a fundamental disrespect for people that disagree with your opinions.
My opinion of communism is not misunderstood. Nor does it have anything at all to do with one wanting to be ruled by kings.
Both systems are crap because humans suck and will let people with type b personality disorders ruin it.
They are both crap, it just that one is less crap than the other. The problem is that these kids don’t understand nuance at all. Everything to the extreme, and no grey area.
Capitalism beats nothing. It is literally the worst system ever set up as an economic system of governance.
Capitalism is bad.
The idea that it’s the worst is just…
Delusional.
And how many years do you personally have living under a different socioeconomic system?
None, just the one grinding me down.
How many do you?
Did I ask you?
No, but I asked you.
I’ll answer your question once mine is answered, how about that? Fair?
None
Again, did I ask you?