“Yes don’t vote at all to get rid of fascism”
In Sweden the far-right tried to play this game. They started chirping about the social democrats being rasist and made a list on like an A4 with names and events. Then the same was done to them, matching the font, their list was taken up a skylift and holding one end they folded it out to the ground in a television program.
In the US, the ‘left’ would just amplify the voice of the far-right.
Good on Swedish voters for being less stupid than we are.
Well, I would not give them that much credit. The majority governing coallition is with the far-right. They were clear before the election they were going to work with the far-right. They have a common platform with the far right which has a large overlap with e.g. Trumps; mass deportation of immigrants (like for reasons like being a victim of a crime), slashing government agencies, extreme restrictions on free speech, and so on. It is just a bit slower here when it comes to reaching their goals.
Based
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Lately, they have been trying to tell me that North Korea is a democracy.
I mean it is in the name. The DEMOCRATIC People’s Republic of Korea.
Dumb libs can’t even read
I prefer the liberated Korea ,the south is the occupied Korea.
I lived in SK. It’s a racist shit hole. I’ve also been to NK for work and it’s absolutely and even bigger, darker, shit hole.
Wow, a country that experienced harsh Japanese colonial rule from 1910 until being forcibly divided by the US after the second world war, creating a war-torn pariah state facing crushing international economic sanctions, is a shit hole? Color me surprised!
You act like I don’t know that. I also don’t see how that excuses the insane levels of racism towards anyone not from the peninsula they exhibit.
Huh??? Did I say anything about that? Does this racism excuse anything we’ve done to them? Seriously, project much?
What the hell should we do about it, fucking invade them again? Continue blockades that don’t even achieve their stated purpose and just make things worse for their people? Cause that’s gone over so well… the only real interaction with most foreign nations being that of sanctions, acts of war and colonization, arbitrarily imposing their own values, and constantly talking down on them both as a nation and as a people, definitely is going to make them love foreigners.
It’s not an “excuse” brother it’s just material reality, why do I have to be “excusing” anything? Is it too much to treat them like humans worthy of a basic level of respect??
Let’s talk excuses though. It’d really be no fucking wonder if they hate us like you say they do. You would hate foreigners too if they talked about you like that and preyed on your downfall the way western nations do to the DPRK. In fact you’ve shown very clearly that you have the exact same hate which you’re trying to condemn here. Calling their home a “shithole”, your only response to a very brief overview of their history not being one of understanding or empathy but simply to lash out and call them racist, which I can only assume is to imply they deserved it. What’s your excuse??
If you’re willing to share, I would very much appreciate a new post about this.
I can throw something up this weekend.
They’d campaign hard against Lincoln for being a defender of slavery, despite him being the only anti-slavery candidate with a chance of winning in 1860.
They don’t care how many marginalized groups are beat, raped, starved, and murdered, so long as they can jerk themselves off over how pure (or nonexistent) their ballot was.
Here’s the tankie of the time. Liberals would be out defending the slave owners rights for free market ideals and the law . Possibly demanding that more women should be allowed to hold the whip. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
John Brown, who was widely celebrated by Republicans in the Union? The ‘Liberals’ you so despise?
I’m not even usaian but I now that republican and democrats were the opposite sides compared to today. Are you deliberately trying to be dishonest or are you just stupid?
Also liberalism is a word usaians have a hard time grasping what it is. it’s a specific ideology not a party. Neoliberal ideas are shared on both heads of the US plutocracy
I’m not even usaian but I now that republican and democrats were the opposite sides compared to today.
Yes, and the Republicans of the time were very much liberals.
Are you deliberately trying to be dishonest or are you just stupid?
Big Dunning-Kruger energy.
Ah I take it as the first one there. Maybe you could have vote harder against slavery? John Brown is a terrorist for you. Not for me.
Maybe you could have vote harder against slavery?
So glad you made sure that shitlib Lincoln wasn’t elected, it would have been truly terrible if someone who wasn’t an unconditional supporter of slavery was in charge of the country.
Let’s not forget the current right winged idiocy claiming he’s a current Republican and the Democrats were racist.
What is Marxist-Leninism?
Or, the things I misunderstood when listening to Chapo.
Leftists: Maybe we shouldn’t fund genocide and perhaps the average worker should be able to afford to put food on their table
Liberals: HOW DARE YOU PROMOTE YOUR RADICAL TANKIE AGENDA, DONT YOU KNOW THE GDP AND STOCK MARKET ARE GOING UP WHICH MEANS THE ECONOMY IS GOOD SO STOP COMPLAINING. IN FACT THE POLITICANS DONT EVEN NEED TO GIVE YOU ANYTHING BECAUSE THEY DESERVE YOUR VOTE, NEVER BLAME THE SYSTEM, NEVER ASK FOR CHANGE AND NEVER THINK ABOUT WHO PULLS THE STRINGS
Straw men are so easy, aren’t they?
I mean this is literally a strawman post so
I mean the meme itself is a strawmen too
Ah but you see its making fun of people with wrongthink™.
Not especially. Many groups of people, conservatives and leftists and “centrists” alike, love to suggest the parties are equal. I’ve heard it in real life. I’ve heard it online. All over reddit when I was still on it and lemmy even now.
Though I wouldn’t especially attribute the logic to tankies, so in that way, perhaps
god tier politics challenge: ask a blue dem to name the last time the Ds did something the opposite to what the Rs have done, and was actually good for the average American
(Not proposed, mind you, but did)
Ofc it’s a straw man! It’s at least so vague and free from annotation that the only way it works at all is for the reader to apply there own.
Prominent leftists I know argue that democrats dont deliver meaningful change but they still encourage people to vote. they say dems go harder against progressives than they do against republicans. And I agree with them.
Not voting does nothing. It doesn’t deliver meaningful change. It doesn’t help. Doesn’t fix.
There’s a lot to lose by not voting. It’s a privilege to vote and run for office, and as a Republic, it’s people’s civic duty to use it.
If you don’t like it, running for election yourself, organizing, unionizing, those are the strongest methods to realistically to fight back. Revolution rarely comes as long as people are moderately comfortable — and that’s the only other option.
For presidential, there’s only 2 options. But if you go down to local level, third parties can be viable.
Only just over 60% of democracies go back to democracy after being authoritarian, and I have never been one to play with gambling the odds
That was entirely based on my interactions with liberals, yes I was acturally called a Tankie for caring about basic human dignity
Go outside and interact with actual people.
Usually when talking to people irl I get called woke
Wait I’m lost, are we talking foreign invasions done by the US vs foreign invasions done by China? Or the number of victims of Hamas vs the victims of the IDF? What are we counting here? Military bases abroad?
Who killed more Asians: US or Mao?
Hamas are arguably a gift for Israel.
It’s only a gift if you get it for free. Israel funded Hamas to make themselves look more sympathetic.
Israel got a good R.O.I.
Hard disagree.
Gaza was under siege by Israel, but it was coping.
Hamas then did their stupid attack on Putin’s 71st birthday, inflicting relatively insignificant damage to Israel;
but it was an excuse that Israel used/is using for the current bulldozing of Gaza (and, IIUC, more of the West Bank).
Perhaps when the Riviera has been fully developed, Netanyahu should send the leaders of Hamas some gift baskets.
The world is turning against Israel. Netanyahu is headed for a jail cell.
IIUC, 50 years ago, the UN GA passed a motion that Zionism was racism.
Did that scare the people of Israel?
I predict that Israel will still have relations with much of the world as dealing with Israel is more profitable than dealing with Arabs in Golan, West Bank, and Gaza; and Netanyahu won’t go to jail, particularly as his 80th birthday is less than 60 months away.
If we take “kill” to mean like manslaughter through poor policy and famine, probably Mao, by an order of magnitude. But I’m guessing that’s not what you’re thinking about, because that’s kind of a silly comparison. It’s like asking “who killed more Americans, Mao or the US”, to which the answer is both obvious and completely uninteresting.
So I’m gonna take it to mean “murder”, like the killing of landlords during the cultural revolution. And then it’s actually kind of close, and I’m not sure who’s killed more Asians. So the most liberal estimates for Mao there are 7 million, but the range is pretty big. The most conservative estimates put him at 2 million.
Let’s look at the US’ kill count. I know of bombing campaigns in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. Respectively, the ranges here are 300k-2M, 1.5M-3.1M, 80k-350k, 50k-150k. So that’s a range of 1.9M-5.6M. Then there’s the suppression of the movement for independence in colonized phillipines, which adds 200k, and Afghanistan, 250k. So that puts us at 2.5M-6M for the US to 2-7 for Mao.
It should be noted that I’m not counting indirect deaths via training and arming dictatorships (if someone hands an assassin a gun, and the assassin kills your mother, the first person is not a murderer, but they are culpable in some way. If we add these, you get Timor, and the murder of leftists in Indonesia in the 60s, among others, which adds another 1-1.5M to the US count.
So I guess it’s kind of close. I gotta say, I’m a little surprised, I always thought Mao was much worse, but the US is a strong contender.
Woah! We skipped over the Pacific theater of WWII entirely it looks like.
Also skipping all MidEast action, but that can be considered a different tally for purposes of this exercise.
But realistically we should also have approximately similar timeframes for both- otherwise we just inflate US counts artificially.
You’re welcome to include Iraq, Iran, South America, Africa, Gaza, Turkish Kurds, and so on. You’re welcome to restrict to some arbitrary timeframe, you’re welcome to exclude indirect fatalities. Ultimately it’s a fairly futile exercise. But I do know that if we restrict to the period including the invasion of Vietnam by China and onward, the US “wins” very, very comfortably.
And I object to your use of the word artificial. These are human lives that were snuffed out for the sake of greed. These were people, like your father, your mother, your friends. There’s nothing artificial about these numbers.
That’s a good reply. 😁
Thank you. 🙂
Talking about how some people deny or justify the horrendous things done by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, the Kim Dynastie, Malenkov, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Ulbricht, Honecker, Guevara, Ho Chi Min, and so on and all their helpers, because others also did horrendous things and both have to be called out for it. Justification of unneccesary murdering shows you are in favor for that which is unacceptable
Are the people justifying these things in the room with us?
If the room is .ml, yes.
What are we counting here?
Evil policies supported by democrats vs evil policies supported by republicans
what evil polices do dems support that the republicans don’t?
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Drone strike deaths under Obama vs under Trump?
Policies can be checked on both sides
Sure, but on average when some self proclaimed leftist’s opening is “Democrats did a bad thing” in a vacuum my immediate assumption is they’re a campist/tankie, accelerationist, or a rightwing psyop and my instinct is to immediately challenge them (most of the time… sometimes its me critiquing the dems)
Sometimes it turns out they’re giving an earnest critique but usually not.
What in the word salad are you talking about.
Leftists say funding Israel’s war crimes is bad. Check mark in both columns.
That’s not a critique of democrats, that’s a critique of a portion of democrats and all of republicans.
It’s a critique of the democrats that were in the running for president
Who made you the arbiter of another person’s earnestness? Can you read minds? And if you’re the one criticizing the Dems, does someone else take over?
I’m the arbiter of who I trust is arguing coherently or in good faith and I am ultimately not trusting of the average internet poster by default.
I’ve been arguing on dedicated internet debate spaces for a very very large portion of my life and I have a good eye for when someone isn’t worth being taken seriously.
I’ll take your word for it.
If you are confronted with two evils, thus the argument runs, it is your duty to opt for the lesser one, whereas it is irresponsible to refuse to choose altogether. … The weakness of the argument has always been that those who choose the lesser evil forget very quickly that they chose evil.
- Hannah Arendt, “Personal Responsibility Under Dictatorship,” in Responsibility and Judgment (2003)
It’s very interesting that those who screamed that we had to choose the lesser of two evils in 2020, thereby admitting to the evil of the Democrats, immediately shut up about this evil as soon as Biden took office. Now that the greater evil has taken power, you never talk about actually fighting it, you just spend your time bashing people with a conscience.
Now that the greater evil has taken power, you never talk about actually fighting it
We did fight it, and won, in 2020. In 2024 a few people stopped fighting, so we lost. And now the people who were complaining about Biden being evil are being deported for speaking their mind.
The ones not being deported are attempting to on top their high horse and act like them not voting was somehow better than the alternative.
This reply is a perfect example of the disconnect between liberals and leftists. The democrats did not meaningfully fight fascism in 2020-2024! As I’ve said elsewhere, fighting fascism effectively would have entailed hanging Trump after J6. Instead they allowed Trump to get away with a coup attempt. This allowed the fascists to iteratively test coup strategies, and they might have found the correct one this time around.
fighting fascism effectively would have entailed hanging Trump after J6.
And how would that happen? After all, the Supreme Court gave him immunity, and all Democrats controlled was the presidency. So you’re saying Joe Biden should’ve told the Supreme Court and every other court to suck it, and used I assume the military to arrest and execute Trump while skipping due process?
I don’t think that’s fighting fascism. That’s implementing it.
What needed to happen was for Trump to not win a second time. Had he died at home peacefully we wouldn’t be in the shit right now, and we wouldn’t have even needed to do the fascism ourselves to stop it. People just needed to fucking stop the fascist from winning the election.
And how would that happen?
Uhhh antifascists drag him out of whatever hole he tries to hide in and hang him from a lamppost? The Mussolini Special, if you will.
fighting fascism effectively would have entailed hanging Trump after J6
Aside from other considerations, you don’t want to turn Trump into a martyr—maybe in February 2017 they should have made Mar-a-lago a prison where Trump could/can only communicate with the outside world by writing or silent videos.
Had Biden resigned into an honorable retirement between, say, Feb 2022 to Feb 2024, Harris probably would have won in 2024; but power corrupts, or reveals, or something. When Mussolini died, he was only 61 years old.
Don’t know what the fuck you’re on about but that’s hogwash. No self aware individual on the left doesn’t hate their own party’s faults, at least in the US. The same simply can’t be said for the other side.
on the left
The Democratic party is not a leftist party. It’s a center-right liberal party. The point of my post was that “self aware” Democrat voters pay lip service to acknowledge the evil of the Democratic party, but then do absolutely nothing to challenge it when the Democrats are in power.
You didn’t say anything wrong but the takeaway is really vague and open ended. What do you propose they do?
The US doesn’t have a left
They have a far right and a less far right
The US only has two authoritarian parties.
immediately shut up about this evil as soon as Biden took office
Citation needed.
Every single person I know who reluctantly voted for Biden spent the next 4 years complaining constantly. Online forums were full of liberals calling Biden “basically a Republican”. Plenty of news stories covered how more progressive Democrats felt Biden wasn’t doing enough.
That’s the opposite of what I saw. I’m not saying that you are wrong, just that I saw differently. I saw Democrats spend most of their time saying that it’s not OK to attack the current Democratic president. I wonder how much of that difference is based on the circles we run in, or the news sites that we visit.
Makes sense.
For a reference point: I’m a millennial, living in a pretty liberal state of the US. Reading the front page of Reddit (not logged in, running ad-blockers so I think I get a “generic” experience), Ars Technica, occasional HackerNews threads, Something Awful forums. My friend circles are unanimous that Israel is an apartheid state, Russia is an invader, immigrants are not any kind of problem. It includes a few trans people who are vocal about their experiences. I would not call it a radically progressive group. For example, I don’t think most of them would actually be comfortable with mass-executions of wealthy people.
Before joining Lemmy, I’d never encountered “tankies” in enough quantity for them to have any kind of label or for anyone to self-identify as “anti-tankie”. It’s still a weird idea to me.
Says the person who never has done evil ever. /s
My friend, I don’t know how you are still alive. The only action these days that doesn’t involve some kind of negative consequence is breathing air.
For the rest of us who actually do stuff, so you can whine at us from your computer, we make compromises all the time. That is life.
For the rest of us who actually do stuff
I’m an anarchist with years of on the ground organizing experience. I have friends in prison. I’ve had friends killed by the police. Shut the fuck up you liberal piece of shit.
All that hard work and compromise and yet, you can’t bring yourself to get your hands a little dirty by voting for the lesser evil. You are accelerating the rate at witch your friends die by police. For what reason?
Whether or not someone takes 15 minutes out of their life to vote every 2 years is quite literally the least important facet of their political activity. It effects exactly nothing. All your supposed concern over fascism, and you can’t bring yourself to get your hands a little dirty by torching an ICE van or stealing some clothes and giving them to homeless people. For what reason?
People should do both. I’m glad you are fighting back - remember that the government you fight against is shaped by the people voted for.
I’ve also been in prison, and I share your frustration with people who pull the wool over their eyes and play “House” in this hellscape. But taking “15 minutes out of their life” to ensure the figurehead at least pretends to care about the will of the people is Absolutely relevant, even when we are in a war. Biden was shit, and Kamala wouldn’t fix this, but Trump has a secret police force and has been playing with the idea of martial law. That’s going to have an impact on the “torching an ICE van” crowd.
Political change will require breaking the law, but if you’re not willing to push on the legal front of political change, you’re just a terrorist (if not a saboteur).
You can both vote and organize. Why vote? The more fascist the government is the harder it is to organize. For only 15 minutes every 2 years, it’s actually a pretty powerful tool. It may not move things left but it slows down the fascism.
tankie looking at Kamala Harris and Donald Trump standing next to each other ‘im seeing double! four liberals!’
Using the term “tankie” while defending a party carrying out a modern day holocaust is quite something.
Defending and arguing that the two parties aren’t the same isn’t the same thing. Just check out last week’s news involving trump. Just last week. And then multiply that by 50. Nobody said the democrats are good. Just that the republicans are 10 times worse, that’s all.
When Democrats win next election they will spend the whole election carrying on Trump’s policies and therefore normalizing them. Republicans go farther right, people like you say that’s proof they’re worse and we should back the Democrats, Democrats win and do all the same policies and therefore normalize it, which then allows Republicans to go farther right.
while defending a party carrying out a modern day holocaust
Oof. You should really think twice before posting a comment this dumb. There’s a delete option. Do yourself a favor and use it.
holocaust deniers should not bother replying because they will just get the instant block
Can we just stop having this discussion? It’s so boring. Both sides misrepresent the other. Tankies are stupid. Also nobody is a tankie. The Biden administration sanctioned a genocide. Every other US president is a war criminal. This discussion never goes anywhere.
So you propose ignoring the propaganda and hope it’ll go away? Doesn’t sound like a very good plan.
You mean the two party system propaganda?
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“both sides are the same” for example. Do you really need me to list all the propaganda they repeat? Just go to .ml or grad and you’ll see. The discussion is not pointless because ignoring them and not responding to their bullshit isn’t gonna work.
Difficult to vote between genocide and genocide. At least with one you punished the other candidate for it.
Not this shit again lol Every single time
How dare I point out that Biden committed genocide. Have you no shame in yourself? Does it feel good to turn a blind eye to a modern day holocaust and pretend like nothing is happening?
Complete with the signature hysterical accusations and the misconstruing of the facts. 👏 Well done, you’ve become the meme of the post by thinking you’re doing something constructive but only shrieking nonsense and alienating people instead of making an resonating and true statement that we can rally behind.
Please don’t forget to also accuse me of contributing to genocide when I tell you that your shit stinks and is unhelpful and unproductive. Go ahead, say the line, Bart.
Nah, delete this
Man fascists are delusional
“Perfect is, in fact, the enemy of good, and if we can’t have perfect then we shouldn’t settle for good!”
I do so wish their fucking around would limit the finding out to just them, but alas.
Am I correctly interpreting this to mean you think tankies threw the US presidential election? If so, do you have evidence that this is the case?
I don’t think that is what OP is referring to. I interpreted it as the strange measuring stick tankies use to compare the democrats and the republicans. Even accelerationists agree that the Republicans are way worse than the democrats.
100%, republicans are way worse than democrats. To be clear I’m not an accelerationist, I find it repugnant.
Prior to the second election of trump. I would wholeheartedly agree with you.
But as time goes on, it’s looking like we don’t have a democracy but a fascist dictatorship or oligarchy. In which case accelerationism may actually be the lesser evil.
Ugh. Such a tired, stupid argument.
It doesn’t matter whether tankies actually threw the election to Trump.
THEY DIDN’T KNOW WHETHER THEIR ACTIONS WOULD CAUSE THAT TO HAPPEN WHEN THEY CHOSE TO DO SO.
Even if OP isn’t advocating thta, I am.
Tankues hve advocated to not vote democrat over gaza and less people voted for hillary than for biden.
Of course there’s no way proving this is true (and it shouldn’t, since voting should be nonymous) and it certainly was until a certain part also racism and sexism, but the intensity of the calls to boycott dems and Harris having way less votes than Biden is suspicious.
the intensity of the calls to boycott dems and Harris having way less votes than Biden is suspicious
There’s nothing suspicious about it. Voters have spent the last eight years watching their bills for food, health care, child care, and everything else spiral out of control without any meaningful help from Republicans or Democrats.
These millions opted not to miss work to vote because they know definitively that the two choices they had wouldn’t do anything to change how hard their lives have become.
It’s that simple.
Why would you have to miss work to vote?
Because elections occur on a weekday.
Do people only work every hour of a weekday in America? Plus don’t they have a system for voting ahead of time via post too, which you could sort out on a weekend leading up as well?
Do people only work every hour of a weekday in America?
Many do, yes. The majority of our population is so vastly underpaid that they work upwards of 100 hours a week at multiple jobs. (Which, as you can imagine, might inspire them to see a sort of futility in voting to begin with.) Also elections can entail hours-long waiting in line.
Plus don’t they have a system for voting ahead of time via post too
It depends on your state and local jurisdiction. Your right to vote by mail (or to vote conveniently) depends on where you live.
your bait is rotten and stinks, you know how to read. “Interpreting” = strawmanning/otherwise putting words in my mouth.
please take your chum elsewhere, thank you. I hear 4chan is back up these days, now you run along.
Friend, I’m sorry you read my comment as being an attack or an attempt to lure you out. It’s miscommunications like this that make me want to clarify things, which is why I asked instead of assuming. Another misunderstanding: By “throwing the election”, I didn’t mean being solely responsible for the electoral loss. What I mean by that is if you removed the tankie factor from the election, it could have gone the other way. Elections are won and lost on very fine margins. There may be 100 other things that had a similar impact which you could also say threw the election; none of them are solely responsible for it.
If you aren’t saying that they influenced the election to a degree that might have flipped it, then what is it we are “finding out” from their “fucking around”? And, do you consider having read many comments on lemmy as sufficient evidence to think that might be the case?
No, flipflops don’t work at all. My uncle’s neighbors former roommate only has 1 toe, so they solve nothing.
Both sides’d themselves into proto-fascism. And taking us along for the ride.
Fucking morons.
Absolutely. Trump only goes more insane. At least with Kamala we would have had a chance to push left policies, and they wouldn’t be going directly to fucking fascism, unlike t-Rump.
I always just post this article.
Literally the first fucking sentence.
Vice President and Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris said Washington will continue to pressure Israel and other players in the Middle East to reach a ceasefire deal in Gaza
She said she’d continue pressure that wasn’t happening? Wow, what a fucking saint.
Former Israeli ambassador, Michael Herzog, made a startling admission about Biden’s support: “God did the State of Israel a favour that Biden was the president during this period. We fought [in Gaza] for over a year and the administration never came to us and said, ‘ceasefire now.’ It never did. And that’s not to be taken for granted.”
Biden never pressured Israel for ceasefire, as Israeli officials boast of exploiting US support
For the first four months of the Gaza war, the Biden administration opposed a full ceasefire, instead opting at best for a temporary “pause” to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian aid, which was briefly achieved in late November 2023. Biden said earlier that month: “a cease-fire is not peace… every cease-fire is time [Hamas members] exploit to rebuild their stockpile of rockets, reposition fighters and restart the killing.”
A senior member of Israel’s negotiating team said in April that “Since January, it’s clear to everyone that we’re not conducting negotiations. It happens again and again: You get a mandate during the day, then the prime minister makes phone calls at night, instructs ‘don’t say that’ and ‘I’m not approving this,’ thus bypassing both the team leaders and the war cabinet.”
Throughout this period, Biden refrained completely from publicly calling out Netanyahu for explicitly sabotaging the talks.
On May 5, Hamas accepted the April proposal with reservations and amendments, but before the Israeli negotiating team got to formulate a response, Israel’s prime minister rushed to denounce Hamas’ position as “delusional” and ordered the immediate invasion of Rafah on May 7.
Biden, who had promised to halt arm supplies to Israel if it violated his “red line” of invading Rafah, decided to instead suspend one shipment of MK-84 2,000-pound bombs to Israel and nothing more.
After lengthy negotiations, on July 2 Hamas accepted an updated Biden proposal with minor amendments, particularly relating to assurances that the ceasefire would lead to ending the war instead of a mere pause, according to multiple senior Arab and Palestinian officials involved in the talks. Hamas were informed that the US and Israeli negotiating team were both on board. However, a few days later, Netanyahu issued four new “non-negotiable” conditions that mediators and even Israeli security officials saw as intentionally sabotaging the deal. The conditions were: resuming the war after a pause “until [Israel’s] war aims are achieved”; no IDF withdrawal from the Philadelphia corridor between Rafah and Egypt; Israel would restrict the return of over one million displaced Gazans to the Northern half of the enclave; maximizing the number of living hostages to be released in the first phase.
In August, ahead of the Democratic National Convention, the US opened a renewed round of negotiations, having received Iranian and Hezbollah promises of refraining from retaliation if a deal was reached.
Instead of building upon Biden’s proposal and pressing Israel to compromise, the Americans simply incorporated Netanyahu’s four impossible conditions as “a bridging proposal.” They attempted to entice Hamas to the table by getting Israel to reduce its veto on which Palestinian detainees it would release in a deal (Hamas presented a list of 300 heavily sentenced individuals, “the VIPs.” Netanyahu vetoed 100 names, including Marwan Barghouti, and insisted on only releasing prisoners with less than 22 years left in their sentence. The Americans lowered this veto to 75 names then 65 in August, per a senior Arab mediator).
As soon as the DNC ended, Biden blamed Hamas again for the failure of the talks, and effectively stopped trying to get a deal, with US officials declaring in September that a ceasefire deal has become unlikely during Biden’s term. Since then, the White House has attempted to re-write history and promote an official narrative blaming Hamas for Netanyahu’s systematic foiling of the talks.
The Biden Administration’s False History of Ceasefire Negotiations
Sorry to make you read more than the first sentence of an article. In fact I suggest you read the whole thing, since I picked out these quotes pretty arbitrarily. I know you won’t though, because you probably think you’re immune to propaganda so long as you only read the “right” news that just happens to be entirely in agreement with both you and the status quo that has allowed a genocide to happen before our eyes.
Thanks, tankie. Trump appreciates your non vote.
Why are you blaming leftists for Trumps win? We make up like 1% of the population, tops. You should instead point the finger at Republicans for voting for him. Or the Dems for running a totally weak and ineffectual campaign. (Or how about the oligarchs who only want to divide us so that they can rob us blind?)
“both sides”= a disengenious comment by conservative mainly also uses the same thing to say thier not as bad.
“Both sides” also used by liberals to tell you it doesn’t matter they voted for genocide because trump will do the same
both sides is primarly used by conservatives, 100% of the time, lol. its pretty obvious even on reddit. thier talking points often are right wing in nature and pretty disengeniously disguised. i have never seen a “liberal” if there is anything left of center right in america, say that at all.
Funny words coming from the fake “progressive” that claimed boths sides and sat at home or threw away a vote.
