I’m going to say this as a priest ordained in Christ’s One, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church (Episcopal branch): that choice of Jesus image is chef’s kiss
You got me in the first half, but you forgot "evangelical” 😇.
One of my professor, Gérard Siegwalt, a liberal Lutheran, wrote a “Dogmatics for the evangelical catholicity” and I always loved the title.
Signed: an ordained pastor of the Lutheran-Reformed branch.
So they rationalize it that god is money
Relevant quote from St. Basil:
"Who is the covetous man? One for whom plenty is not enough. Who is the defrauder? One who takes away what belongs to everyone. And are not you covetous, are you not a defrauder, when you keep for private use what you were given for distribution? When some one strips a man of his clothes we call him a thief. And one who might clothe the naked and does not—should not he be given the same name?
The bread in your hoard belongs to the hungry; the cloak in your wardrobe belongs to the naked; the shoes you let rot belong to the barefoot; the money in your vaults belongs to the destitute. All you might help and do not—to all these you are doing wrong"
"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I have always loved how simply Jesus spells it out.
As a kid, I always felt it was so implausible that the Jews would kill Jesus. Yes he claims to be God, which is a no-no, but how can a message of peace and love be so divisive? As an adult, I’ve come to realize that it’s divisive to people who are angry and filled with hate, to people who hate peace and love. The Pharisees of 30CE are the exact same as most Christians today. If you walked in to some Trump country Baptist church today and flipped over the collection plates and told everyone there they were going to hell because the want to deport immigrants instead of help them, you’d be shot for sure.
I don’t think it was the message of love that did it, more the implied message of “Jews are no longer the only people with the right to heaven and god - everyone is”
The Jewish people who saw the value/truth of this message became Christians. The ones who didn’t like the idea of not being The Chosen Folk anymore were the ones who called him a heretic
you’d be shot for sure
Do you think it’s a coincidence that MLK was only shot once he started speaking out against the rich and unifying the lower class (of all races)? I’m not saying there was a conspiracy (though I wouldn’t rule it out) or that MLK was the second coming or a prophet, but it’s pretty clear he started making the ruling class nervous once he stated talking about class war.
There absolutely was a conspiracy! Never forget the FBI murdered Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. Never forget what the FBI did to the Black Panthers and the American Indian Movement.
Everyone needs to know about COINTELPRO
It’s always a good time to remind people that MLK’s family proved in civil court that the government killed MLK (either through intent or negligence) to enough of a degree that the judge was convinced and awarded them restitution on the charges. And the only reason that the case didn’t go to a criminal court was because every judge who read the case refused it.
Hell we have a copy of the letter the FBI sent to Dr. King instructing him to kill himself and save them the trouble.
Whoa, TIL about this.
Yeah, but you knew, deep down.
Mario Luigi King
Where I’ve come in regards to the Pharisees is that they were willing to make violent concessions for the sake of a tenuous status quo. Passover was often a flash point of rebellious activity in Jerusalem (which is why Pilate is there in the first place; to keep Jewish people suppressed and to put down any riots or revolutions from would-be messiahs). Violence was not infrequent at the time. And every time there was violence, Rome would take away more freedoms from Jews.
So the Pharisees are put in a position to see Jesus as a potential catalyst for Roman violence. So they figure that if they help hand over another would-be messiah then they can have a quiet Passover. But this mentality winds up being a sort of Leopards-eating-faces situation because Rome destroys Jerusalem a few years later anyway (due to a would-be messiah—just one that the Pharisees thought might be the real deal this time).
I am sending this to all my neo-lib and conservative leaning friends who go to church every day while people are being imprisoned and having their lives and rights taken away.
I don’t know where that candid jesus image is from but it has so much Dicaprio Raising Drink energy that if it hasn’t been memed already then it should
Pretty sure that is Willem Dafoe from The Last Temptation of Christ.
And yeah, it has Buddy Christ energy.
Precisely from the scene where the disciples realize that the water has been changed to wine at the wedding. John looks over at Jesus and sees that image. Jesus also gives a wink iirc. As one devoted to our Savior I feel like that shot absolutely captures what Jesus was like when He walked our earth.
I know there were a lot of things about Last Temptation that were very difficult for a lot of people to cope with, but to me the most challenging thing is Willem Defoe as Jesus H. Christ.
He is risen.
wink
All those NY accents among the disciples lol
He’s something of a messiah, himself.
Ready for that
It’s a pretty funny scene, too.
“There’s not enough wine!”
“What’s in there?”
“That’s water, I put it there myself.”
“Look again.”
[Checks. It’s wine.]
[Jesus delivers face above]
Jesus is the og communist
Jesus was a socialist
This is a reminder there is no such thing as a “Christian” just people who pretend to be so they have an excuse to act unchristian like towards anyone they envy.
Jesus was a socialist
Not all Christians follow American Christianity. But too many do.
This is a reminder there is no such thing as a “Christian” just people who pretend to be so they have an excuse to act unchristian like towards anyone they envy.
I swear they need to change the name of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy to “No True Christian”
I don’t know about “true Christian”
But no sane grown up believes in the magical Christian story. My opinion is that there is no such thing as a “Christian”
No matter how much they claim to believe.
They only say it to have “righteousness” and the moral high ground when they want to abuse or kill or oppress or steal from someone who is not a “true Christian” like they claim to be.
But no sane grown up
that word is doing a LOT of heavy, heavy lifting lol
I was raised conservative Christian and I lost my faith in university. You’re 100% right but I sometimes feel a strong urge to “convert” back but only practice the cool parts. Like I’d one-up christians and quote Jesus’ most socialist verses at them. Maybe start a Facebook page about how the NT has been corrupted in this modern day, conspiracy-theorist style, but the hidden message is just Marxism.
I feel like somebody out there has embodied that, and I’d like to give them space to reclaim the word Christian for themself at least.
That is how most new branches of religion start. Instead maybe Christianity in its core is not what modern people think it is. The Bible itself is a collection and not a single written source. Think of it as a foss project that got forked early on, then a few people took parts of these forks and sample it into the versions we know today, which then also got forked with every translation.
So if you decide to do what said you should consider checking other religions such as Islam and see what you like there as well.
I agree completely. I’m honestly a little annoyed by some of the antitheists in this thread. They should know that historically societies become less religious after quality of life and progressive outlooks develop, not before. So the way you “defeat religion”, if that’s even possible, is by raising living standards and fighting for equality. There are Christians who do more to end Christianity than most atheists.
Also using FOSS as an analogy for religion is hilarious to me for some reason. It works though.
Oh I hate all religions you don’t wanna get me derailed
They’re all horrible.
I won’t split hairs and decide if one is worse than another.
They’re all anti human, and intolerant of logic.
“But what about my religion?”
Yeah yours too.
Science or magic.
One gives us vaccines cell phones and space ships
The other gives us anti vaccines, and a place for rapists to hide
My father in law is a member of the communist party and was a theology professor at a prestigious university, he’s also a catholic and went to seminary (didn’t become a priest though). Point is that there are absolutely leftist Christians out there. You can lead by example.
But also keep in mind that there have been people out there spreading these words, the problem is that when they get too influential, they get disappeared or murdered
Please do this.
I like imagining Jesus as a transgender man. Like, why would god have a Y chromosome?
I do get a little spiritual enjoyment out of it - the idea of a Christ like me, that I can aspire to be like - when I’m really stoned I can almost believe it.
Christ, the supernatural human born from a all knowning deity does not exist.
Christ as philosophical medium to carry a message of love, mutual aid and societal progress is very real.
I denounced Jaweh the demiurge in second grade, but his supposed “son” continues to be a rolemodel to me to this very day.
You just need to ask yourself why you feel the need to add all the extra baggage of a “god” when you can do and believe all of those things without it?
Rhetorical purposes. Religious people are more likely to listen to their god than listen to an atheist.
Who’s asking anyone to listen to an atheist? All of the things you describe are completely separate from religion. This need to add some supernatural force, with zero evidence, adds absolutely nothing of value.
Im talking about people I know personally. People who know I’m an atheist and are more likely to consider my point of view if I added scriptures. That’s all
Christianity is pretty much not about Christ at all, it’s about leveraging him to confer authority over the words of certain people.
no such thing as a “Christian”
Huh?
Another socialist Christian a little more recent than Jesus: you might remember Dr. King. Christianity deserves much more criticism and this is an absolutely correct criticism towards most people who profess to be Christians.
But speaking so absolutely usually means you’re wrong. There are plenty of Christians who actually follow Christ and are working to make the world better.
If you believe in Christian magic, do I have an offer for you: a bridge for a low low cost of however much you have left after tithing
As a non religious person I take issue with comments like these, it’s as though you believe that for someone to have a faith that they must be stupid, and if that’s the case then I have a bridge to sell to you for the low low price which matches the number of brain cells you have.
My manager is religious and quite possibly one of the smartest people I’ve even met, he’s also the owner of our software consultancy and the lead engineer that has contributed massively to open source projects.
I’m not going to pretend to understand why he is religious or whether I agree but all I can say is never met someone as smart as him and he is really nice. We recently got pay rises and a reduction in hours. He spends loads of free time helping his parishioners and doing community work and just generally a nice man.
I am offended on behalf of him for your reductive view.
I am offended on behalf of him for your reductive view.
Well that’s a compelling reason to change my mind? You’re offended on behalf of someone else that you admit that you can’t understand why they’re religious ?
You’re upset with me for being reductionist on behalf of someone else’s reductionist superstition?
Wow.
Why not. Ask him? “Why do you believe in magic? Do you really believe in magic?”
Second hand offense. Wow. Hot damn. I’ve never achieved that before.
No he doesn’t believe in magic. He just believes that there has to be a creator of sorts and that doesn’t necessarily need to be a person, it could be anything that we can’t comprehend.
I don’t believe the same but it would be mighty arrogant of me to claim my believe in we ended here out of randomness is any more convincing.
I don’t believe the same but it would be mighty arrogant of me to claim my believe in we ended here out of randomness is any more convincing.
You know you can just say “I don’t know.” It’s not one or the other. How about don’t believe either until we have compelling evidence explaining the origin of life?
That said, science already has far more compelling evidence on its side than religion regarding this topic. Which, as a reminder, has all of 0 evidence supporting it.
You know you can just say “I don’t know.”
If you take that to its logical conclusion you end up at “I cannot doubt that I doubt, therefore, I am” (which is what Descartes was actually up to) and need a leap of faith to re-introduce even the existence of the material world because solipsism has just as much tangible evidence when considered from that refuge of pure egg-headed rationalism.
That’s not so say that such a position is untenable, or unworkable, you could e.g. say “I will take any position that is compatible with both materialism and solipsism”, hedging around the question. Point I’m making is that you’re a reddit atheist who hasn’t thought as deep about any of this than you think you did. You’re not interested in the question, you’re interested in distancing yourself from a position you associate with people who have hurt you in the past. Valid, of course, but how about focussing on the “hurting people” part instead of “can find meaning in the concept of a god” because the two are, indeed, orthogonal.
I really don’t care what has evidence and what doesn’t. If someone is nice and not harming people I do not care if they believe the sky is green.
So… magic.
It is pretty magical that we are here.
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deleted by creator
P sure that was god through Moses, not christ
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There are plenty of Christians who actually follow Christ and are working to make the world better.
Well… Maybe not plenty. Some. There really could be more.
Weird how kings re-writing the Bible over and over again for thousands of years got rid of all the good stuff and left all the horrible shit…
I mean, it still has the good stuff. Churches just focus on the parts that blame the working class.
I started going to a progressive church (mainly bc my dad made me lol) and it’s SO INTERESTING learning about how the Bible is literally just the most basic “be nice to each other, you dumbasses” and people will take it and start beating each other over it
A few weeks ago they had the head of the local mosque to talk about Palestine along with an Activist that visited there. It was mainly educational where you could ask questions and stuff.
I personally am not particularly religious in the idea that God personally effects everything but it’s damn neat once you stop nitpicking every little thing like other churches and look with an open mind.
For example, the first depiction of a baptism in the new testament was someone who didn’t fit in the binary man/woman social standards. He (iirc) had his balls removed for religious reasons. The proper ‘old testament’ way of getting baptized wouldn’t let him in, so they went to a river instead. Most churches tell it like this, but you can interpret it as the new testament is open to people outside the social rules (specifically gender) and is saying to accept all.
Probably not 100% accurate as I’m telling a retelling that I forgot part of (thanks, ADHD) but that’s just an example.
I really don’t feel too strongly about religion though. I don’t want to sound like a full Bible supporter in every way, ethics and just being nice are way more important than what an old book says to me.
I was essentially shoved through a normal church and learned to shut it all out as… trans …, but it’s been super cool to learn about how its not what conservatives say it is.A lot of the last half of the New Testament (the books that are “A letter to [the churtch at] <place>” ) spends a decent amount of time on “don’t trust someone just because they say they are holy” and “please stop trying to police other people’s faith and behavior”.
Nothing will make you more frustrated with self-righteous Christians, especially Republican/right-wing christians, than reading the Bible.
Here’s the thing though. A lot of the first two books of the New Testament is about how awful the Jews are and how Jesus was a cult leader who got his followers to abandon their families for him and even got his followers to steal for him. Reading Matthew and Mark in the light of today’s politics, Jesus looks like a right-wing grifter. Seems like they’re reading it right to me.
Would a right-wing grifter tell you to give to the poor?
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
(Matthew 19:21)
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
(Luke 12:33)
A right-wing grifter would twist these words to make it so he is the poor, but the OG doesn’t have to twist anything. If he wanted money, he could have asked for money. Instead he explicitly tells everyone to do good deeds, over and over. And it confused a great deal of people for thousands of years.
I love that story about the first New Testament baptismal. It’s so weird to think that that person was (after a fashion) Nonbin. It conjures this weird scene to me where Jesus is in some kind of board room and the Apostles are bringing him polling data.
“Jesus, I know we have a mission statement. I know, I know. “Love thy neighbour” “Love everyone” “We’re all Gods children”. No, totally love that, very cutting edge. No, we’re so onboard. I just think we really need to consider not loving some specific groups. Like, Nonbins, or Trans people, or the Gays. First century Judea is just not very progressive and some of these demographics are…”
Jesus flips whole fucking boardroom table
"What THE FUCK, Paul!? Are we going to have this fight every Dad-damned week? Listen to me. Listen. It’s core to the brand. Do you understand me? The whole brand! We don’t love SOME people. We don’t love JUST the Hebrews, or JUST the Romans. EVERYBODY. If it’s not EVERYBODY, then what the fuck are we doing here? Seriously.
It’s the whole goddamn brand. I promised a “New Way”. You want to take my vision - my divine purpose- and make it just like every other religion on the block. Totally dilute our entire brand image. Why would anyone choose the son of a carpenter, if I was going to be picky? Ok? That’s the core question here. We are doing this for EVERYBODY.
No. No, of course I forgive you. I always forgive you. Just… get the fuck out and lay off the Queers."
Theologists pretty much agree that the Bible remains quite unchanged since it was first compiled. Of course, the religions that use it have since become quite selective in what parts they read.
The good tidbits are there. The bad was always there. Even early christians thought so.
Before the religion organized into a hierarchical orthodoxy, communities distant from the emerging establishment (not particularly attached to jewish traditions) in places like Alexandria were left to their own devices to figure out christianity: they formed loose households & study circles to interpret texts in the context of their own traditions & culture, and they drew their own conclusions.
- Reading the older jewish scriptures & newer texts quite literally, they concluded there were 2 deities. 1 of whom, the unhidden Demiurge (Yahweh of the old testament) who had created the material universe, was a vengeful and ignorant deity inimical to human welfare. Consequently, material existence is flawed & evil, and they must escape that realm by seeking personal knowledge of the other, hidden deity: the transcendent spiritual entity, the Silent Depth (or the Monad), who briefly inhabited Jesus with that revelatory wisdom or logos found in the newer texts. In other words, there’s cool god (Jesus’s god) & evil genocidal god (Yahweh).
- Moreover, they concluded that church authority isn’t needed: Jesus had awoken a spark of divinity in matter that would find its way back to its transcendent source with little need of episcopal authority or sacramental practice.
This interpretation became known as gnosticism.
Sticklers with the evil trash god of older jewish scriptures didn’t like this idea, became early church authorities, denounced it as heresy, & purged all the texts they could of it. Nonetheless, early christians thought there was bad in those texts & tried to handle it.
You can read Codex Sinaiticus online, it’s from around 400 AD.
don’t care. destroy all religion for the future of humanity.
Will never happen, there’s a sucker born every day.
that’s why we have to be proactive and regulate our society.
Real Marxists know Marx didn’t morally condemn the rich. He wanted the workers to take hold of the productive forces created under capitalism and organize it under a rational basis.
that’s why it’s ML, Marxist Leninism, and not just Marxism
Rationalism sprinkled with authoritarianism, brutality and famine?
whatever you say
Lenin was a murderous brutal dictator.
What are you trying to say? I think Lenin had useful insights and strategies, but Marxism is a bit broader.
I’m not saying anything lmao they call themselves ML and not just Marxists for this reason
You mean Stalinists call themselves ML? For what reason?
Stalinists are ML
Yup. The great issue with capitalism, is that it wasn’t formally designed to enrich society as a whole. It merely is an upgraded iteration of feudalism. You can give a pig a top hat and monocle, but it is still a pig.
We will need a new Constitution, one built to acknowledge that Economics is power. The framers addressed politics and violence, but overlooked the fundamental impact that money has on society. Floors and ceilings on wealth should be implemented, so that the likes of Musk or Trump cannot exist.
Well yes, the framers of the constitution were mostly from the merchant class. If you reframe the document with that in mind you can see that they wanted an almost libertarian system that allowed them to make money without being hindered by nobility or other rich white dudes. Except for Thomas Paine. Thomas Paine was cool.
“Watch me backflip onto this this market table to make space for the MAGA hats” - Jesus ‘The Donald’ Christ.
of course not. god goes with red wine. money goes with white wine.
White “whine”
Christ’s teachings were an inspiration to Marx
Yes, in the same way that Marx’s teachings were an inspiration to Hitler — as a convenient source for plagiarism and fertile grounds for the delusion that each of them had found the one piece of the puzzle that everyone before them missed: that if only you went and killed all the Pharisees, the Kingdom of God would materialize on earth without all that annoying and painful self-sacrifice.
Not at all, Marx thought Jesus’ idea of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and tending to the sick was a good goal and envisioned a pathway to achieve that IRL.
But Jesus already showed the path and there were many saints who came after him who can attest to its efficacy.
Meanwhile, everyone who attempted to put Marx’s ideas into action has ended up killing millions of people and driving their entire country into misery and poverty.
Have you ever read Tolstoy?
His The Kingdom of God is Within You discusses how communism without religion is doomed to fail due to the lack of a moral compass beyond instituting communism. I thought it was very moving and persuasive.
I have not. But that’s an interesting thesis, because it contradicts Marx’s central belief that “religion is the opium of the people”, and that it would become unnecessary once communism was fully established.
I think Marx’s stance on religion is the greatest factor that has prevented communism from widespread acceptance. Religious communes have been operating for centuries, and (as shown by the OP), their morals align very well. Christians should have been Marx’s greatest allies, but instead he chose hard-line atheism.
That, and his stance that the use of violence is not only permissible, but necessary in order for the revolution to succeed.
Christian ethics are essentially voluntarist in nature; Jesus spent a lot of time trying to convince people to set aside their differences and work together, but ultimately he leaves it up to everyone’s free will.
Marx thought that he could shortcut this whole process by simply forcing everyone to participate, and that’s where he departed from Christianity. “All who take the sword will perish by the sword” (Matt. 26:52) was not part of his philosophy.
You know, I’m something of a leftist myself.
You never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice.
And then there was a fire fight! *rapturous dancing*
I don’t know who Colin Bodayle is, but from the responses he got from his students I think he is located in the US. There is rot in the US culture that’s too deep, Trump is just it surfacing. Greed, individualism and selfishness are considered virtues, I noticed it when talking to coworkers there through the years. If Jesus ever went to the US he’d be crucified that is if he wasn’t arrested at the border by ICE for being a Palestinian. The US claims to be a Christian nation, yet it is the furthest from it. What good is your religion if it doesn’t make you do good? What good is your religion if it doesn’t make you overcome your selfishness and greed?
Also worth noting that the US is not and never has been a “Christian nation.” Not only did the Founding Fathers specifically separate church and state for that reason, but they also didn’t declare a national religion and enshrined religious freedom as well for that same reason. Plus, half of them were agnostic or atheists. Anybody who says we’re a “Christian nation” is just using religion as an excuse for bigotry.
If God truly exists, he more so loves the atheist who questions the world around him than the Christian who blindly follows.
-Thomas Jefferson
I mean, the US has obviously become a “Christian” nation, it matters not if it was founded as one or not. Simply, like, look around.
According to the internets, “Liberation Theology” is a Christian movement that started in Latin America in the 1960s, that preaches against oppression. They sound like the opposite of right-wing “Christians”.
As far as I’ve understood, that is precisely one of the reasons the current pope has such a strong base in Latin America and so many in that part of the world wanted to see him as pope.
The Jesuit University System (SUJ) actively promotes liberation theology through curriculum in Mexico, and I would expect the Jesuits have similar structures and programs in other countries and parts of the world.
Interesting, I never knew that, even though my parents sent me to a Jesuit high school in Portland OR. All boys sadly, but academically fantastic.
Yeah the right wing Christians were training death squads to murder Liberation theology priests in Latin America.
Wtf is it with you and dragging Palestine into absolutely everything you post.
There’s a “block user” feature that I recommend you make use of. This is a post about Christianity, bringing up Jesus and the fact that he was Palestinian is on topic, it is additionally relevant as Palestinians are being targeted by the US government domestically and abroad.
Yeah, it’s the fruit of almost a century of anti-communist propaganda.
To be fair over many many centuries, Christians aren’t exactly very following of the ways of Christ.
Yeah, it’s what led me to leave the faith. What I read in the NT wasn’t what was practiced in the church.
If Jesus came to the US he would smack the shit out of all of us
Was Jesus a political man?
Does anyone have that slide deck? Asking for a friend
