It has a wider variety of usage in Japanese than “pedophile” does in English, so no, it’s not always the most accurate translation. For example, “lolicon” (ロリコン) is used self-referentially, sometimes as a joke and sometimes not, in Japan while “pedophile” is basically never used like this in English. It’s also not too uncommon to use it of another person as a relatively lighthearted jab in Japanese, when in English calling someone else a pedophile (or even the more casual pedo) is a grave accusation.
Yes, and it’s also used about actual child predator pedophiles. It’s a word with multiple senses/connotations, and one of those senses corresponds closely with the English word “pedophile” while the others do not. That’s why “pedophile” is not always the correct translation for it – though whether it’s correct in this case I can’t say, as I haven’t watched the anime in question.
If you’re into sexualized (cartoon) children you’re a pedophile, so the translation would be factually correct. That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
Which is why it’s not always the most accurate translation. Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here.
It’s a bit like how in English, Epstein wouldn’t call Trump a pedophile, he’d say he “likes them young”. In Japanese he could call him a lolicon and get the same tone.
If the term isn’t meant to be so “heavy” in the original usage, and there isn’t an equivalent “light” term here, I wonder if it would’ve been better to just translate it as “I didn’t realize you were a creep” or something else that misses the nuance, but gets the intended feeling and tone across.
I don’t know, I haven’t seen the scene or heard the vocal delivery, I’m not sure what kind of anime it is, or what kind of tone it’s trying to strike. If the mood is “she has discovered a dark secret and is scared” then yeah, “I didn’t realize you were a pedophile” would work great.
But if instead she’s found some porn that isn’t necessarily naked children, and it’s played off as deadpan funny or awkward or misunderstanding, then I think “I didn’t realize you were a pedophile” might not come across light heartedly in the way “I didn’t realize you were a creep” or something similar would. Even if it’s an accurate “word for word” translation, it might not sound right in the scene or match the character’s delivery.
But I don’t know this anime or what it’s about, so I don’t know what the tone should be. It just sounds like there’s disagreement with the line as chosen.
Yes, and part of the job of a translator is to make sure that this fact is clear to the reader of the translation. “Pedophile” is virtually never a socially acceptable moniker in English whereas sometimes in Japanese “lolicon” is. Therefore it cannot be translated directly. This isn’t particularly unusual; Japanese is a very contextual language, so even beyond cultural differences there are lots of words that require a different translation in different contexts.
For this specific scene the translation could well be fine (I imagine it’s probably a gag scene where the other character gets flustered and rejects the accusation), but there are circumstances where a different translation is required.
Except the context is just that pedophilia is much less stigmatized. It still means pedophile it just doesn’t carry the social consequences because it’s more socially acceptable. It doesn’t mean something that can’t be expressed in english. It’s not complicated. Saying someone is perving on little girls would be less impactful than calling them a pedophile but it means the same thing.
Yeah, and to someone who doesn’t know that context, using the word “pedophile” is going to make the line sound very different from what it does in the original language and culture.
Japan is uncomfortably comfortable with loli shit, and it’s reflected in anime… Which is why anime will never be a family living room activity for me, unless I’ve vetted it to be clean. For example, Death Note is ok, but Dragon Maid is not.
To be an anime fan you have to learn this specific skill where you disassociate during cringe “fan-service” moments and come back to Earth once it’s over.
My favorite personal example of this is Langrisser Mobile. Easily my favorite mobile game ever made with tons of depth to character building and strategy with a genuinely engrossing story full of political intrigue in a fantasy setting. And I can never recommend it to anyone.
This is because certain female characters allow you to perform love confessions to them if you max them out. Almost all female characters (for the first few years) are under 16. You can confess your love to the 10 year old girl and she will promise to keep it a secret till she’s old enough. You can also buy a skin for her where her skin is glistening wet, she shakes her ass at the camera, and wears white, see-through-because-they’re-wet stockings. Why.
It’s wild just how pervasive it is in 2D/3DCG Japanese/Chinese media (Langrisser Mobile is a Chinese gacha spinoff of a Japanese game series). Basically every gacha game ever made has you hunting underage girls for sport. And the players are just totally fine with this. Meanwhile, just off of the top of my head there’s almost literally every single anime ever set in a high school, about half of isekai fantasy, almost every modern shonen battle anime – all giving creepshots or sexual harassment scenes about underage girls. It’s genuinely unavoidable.
Or just don’t watch anything that sexualizes children. Pretty well cuts off half or more of the anime out there but I’m not a pedo or interested in watching pedo shit.
The thing is that anime is usually really good for the themes and story and art, but they occasionally sprinkle turds into it, so you kind of metaphorically eat around them. It’s still worth watching as long as you can compartmentalize and ignore the bad parts.
You just reminded me, years ago, I used to burn custom handmade censored versions of anime and tv shows for my family. I’d sit there after school for hours in a video editor cutting out every sex scene in Game of Thrones, every loli scene in anime. Then I’d burn that to a DVD-RW and recreate the disc art using a sharpie. Finally I watched it with everyone on the DVD player.
In retrospect it was a lot of work just to share my favourite shows with my family, but I don’t regret it.
Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here. That’s what makes the translation inaccurate in some contexts.
So small-minded? Let me remind you that “cannibal” is originally an ethnonym coined by Columbus for the native Caribbean people, whose culture certainly had a lot more nuance than just eating people.
So what you’re saying is that culturally Japan doesn’t have as much of a problem with pedophilia as english speaking countries. That’s not really a defense or a refutation that lolicon means pedophile.
That is so weird to me that a society with much more Shame basis for stuff does not shame attraction to and relationships with minors.
On the other hand I’ve always wondered when is shame effective as a social motivator to prevent misdeeds, and when does it push people to hide their problems instead of seeking help and solutions?
You make an important distinction. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t consider it immoral when in the west it seems intrinsically immoral to most people.
I’ve read Naomi and Memoirs of a Geisha so Ive had some exposure to some of the cultural ideas, but i guess I’m looking for a scholarly article or educational text explaining the differences
It’s a relatively recent thing in the west, too. Not too long ago (well into the previous century) most girls were married off by their 15th or 16th birthday. “Fun” fact: there’s still a lot of child marriage in the US to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
Japan isn’t actually substantially different in this regard – sure, they have their teen idols, but then so does the US (Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, what have you) – except they draw a clear line between fictional and real child pornography, both legally and in terms of general attitudes. The legal part isn’t that strange (lolicon material isn’t illegal in most of the US either), but the way general morality permits it in Japan but doesn’t in the US is interesting. My guess is that this is partially explained by the US generally being pretty puritanical when it comes to sexuality, whereas Japan is more liberal about it (in their own way), but that can’t be the only thing because European countries do not have the puritan culture of the US but also don’t share the Japanese tolerance of lolicon.
European countries do not have the puritan culture of the US but also don’t share the Japanese tolerance of lolicon.
many french philosophers around 1930 asked for the legalization of relation to minors. they failed probably mostly because of american influence. america, in turn, has very repressive views about sexuality in general, not just involving minors. think of the purple scare. i think it has to do with the church of england thinking that “sexuality is bad because it represents the serpent” from the tree of life while the bird represents knowledge, so people should study and seek knowledge instead of seeking sexual interactions.
not intrinsically, at least not for long. in most of europe it was legal up until the 90s and there were even porno mags that ran specials.
…i do compulsive late night wiki walks, before you ask how i know that. i had a period where i read up on what happened to the “flower power” generation with all their “free love” stuff and that came up. i tend to do breadth-first search so i just read through articles while opening all the links in the background, then go down a level, etc etc. when a term like that comes up on a wiki page it triggers your fight-or-flight response.
I don’t have scholarly references or anything, but the standard for this varies massively across cultures. Just looking at the West, the age at which it was thought appropriate to get married used to be wayyy lower than it is now. In Ancient Greece, a particular form of pederasty was celebrated as an especially pure form of relationship.
Nowadays we have robust evidence that sexual activity between an adult and a child is severely harmful. However, even this we can’t legitimately extend too far cross-culturally, because we don’t (as far as I know) have any certainty that this isn’t conferred due to the child being the victim of a socially-defined crime. The question one could ask is: given that Ancient Greece didn’t categorise their form of paedophilia as a violation, did the children in those relationships therefore not suffer in the same way as modern victims of paedophilia? It’s an uncomfortable question, and even asking it will probably make most people nope out, but it’s very useful to be sharp about what we do and don’t know.
And you know that for a fact? I mean, obviously it could be. As far as I know there is no evidence for it, and getting that evidence will be incredibly difficult.
Well if the powers that be shamed attraction to and relationships with minors, they would have to accept that forcing themselves on people who aren’t in a position to refuse consent is shameful, and then they would have to answer some very uncomfortable questions about what some of their heroes did in Korea and China …
It has a wider variety of usage in Japanese than “pedophile” does in English, so no, it’s not always the most accurate translation. For example, “lolicon” (ロリコン) is used self-referentially, sometimes as a joke and sometimes not, in Japan while “pedophile” is basically never used like this in English. It’s also not too uncommon to use it of another person as a relatively lighthearted jab in Japanese, when in English calling someone else a pedophile (or even the more casual pedo) is a grave accusation.
it’s telling that these things are treated light-heartedly. more telling than the one-size-fits-all translation into “pedophile”, even.
It’s telling that pedophilia is culturally acceptable. That’s not really a good thing.
But isn’t it used about people who are into sexualized (cartoon) children?
Yes, and it’s also used about actual child predator pedophiles. It’s a word with multiple senses/connotations, and one of those senses corresponds closely with the English word “pedophile” while the others do not. That’s why “pedophile” is not always the correct translation for it – though whether it’s correct in this case I can’t say, as I haven’t watched the anime in question.
If you’re into sexualized (cartoon) children you’re a pedophile, so the translation would be factually correct. That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
Which is why it’s not always the most accurate translation. Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here.
It’s a bit like how in English, Epstein wouldn’t call Trump a pedophile, he’d say he “likes them young”. In Japanese he could call him a lolicon and get the same tone.
How would you translate the word to best fit the meaning?
If the term isn’t meant to be so “heavy” in the original usage, and there isn’t an equivalent “light” term here, I wonder if it would’ve been better to just translate it as “I didn’t realize you were a creep” or something else that misses the nuance, but gets the intended feeling and tone across.
Does “pedophile” not work in the scene in question?
I don’t know, I haven’t seen the scene or heard the vocal delivery, I’m not sure what kind of anime it is, or what kind of tone it’s trying to strike. If the mood is “she has discovered a dark secret and is scared” then yeah, “I didn’t realize you were a pedophile” would work great.
But if instead she’s found some porn that isn’t necessarily naked children, and it’s played off as deadpan funny or awkward or misunderstanding, then I think “I didn’t realize you were a pedophile” might not come across light heartedly in the way “I didn’t realize you were a creep” or something similar would. Even if it’s an accurate “word for word” translation, it might not sound right in the scene or match the character’s delivery.
But I don’t know this anime or what it’s about, so I don’t know what the tone should be. It just sounds like there’s disagreement with the line as chosen.
I don’t know, I haven’t watched the show so I don’t know what the meaning is here.
They already basically answered that.
Though in this context, maybe the best thing to do is to not translate it. Most of the audience is likely to know the word already.
Did the character mean to say that they’re a pedophile but without the bad implication of it?
The lack of stigma against pedophilia does not make it not pedophilia, it just makes it socially acceptable to be a pedophile.
Yes, and part of the job of a translator is to make sure that this fact is clear to the reader of the translation. “Pedophile” is virtually never a socially acceptable moniker in English whereas sometimes in Japanese “lolicon” is. Therefore it cannot be translated directly. This isn’t particularly unusual; Japanese is a very contextual language, so even beyond cultural differences there are lots of words that require a different translation in different contexts.
For this specific scene the translation could well be fine (I imagine it’s probably a gag scene where the other character gets flustered and rejects the accusation), but there are circumstances where a different translation is required.
Except the context is just that pedophilia is much less stigmatized. It still means pedophile it just doesn’t carry the social consequences because it’s more socially acceptable. It doesn’t mean something that can’t be expressed in english. It’s not complicated. Saying someone is perving on little girls would be less impactful than calling them a pedophile but it means the same thing.
Yeah, and to someone who doesn’t know that context, using the word “pedophile” is going to make the line sound very different from what it does in the original language and culture.
Part of the job of a translator is to…
That just sounds to me that pedophilia is not frowned upon in Japan, not that the translation is inaccurate.
Japan is uncomfortably comfortable with loli shit, and it’s reflected in anime… Which is why anime will never be a family living room activity for me, unless I’ve vetted it to be clean. For example, Death Note is ok, but Dragon Maid is not.
To be an anime fan you have to learn this specific skill where you disassociate during cringe “fan-service” moments and come back to Earth once it’s over.
My favorite personal example of this is Langrisser Mobile. Easily my favorite mobile game ever made with tons of depth to character building and strategy with a genuinely engrossing story full of political intrigue in a fantasy setting. And I can never recommend it to anyone.
This is because certain female characters allow you to perform love confessions to them if you max them out. Almost all female characters (for the first few years) are under 16. You can confess your love to the 10 year old girl and she will promise to keep it a secret till she’s old enough. You can also buy a skin for her where her skin is glistening wet, she shakes her ass at the camera, and wears white, see-through-because-they’re-wet stockings. Why.
It’s wild just how pervasive it is in 2D/3DCG Japanese/Chinese media (Langrisser Mobile is a Chinese gacha spinoff of a Japanese game series). Basically every gacha game ever made has you hunting underage girls for sport. And the players are just totally fine with this. Meanwhile, just off of the top of my head there’s almost literally every single anime ever set in a high school, about half of isekai fantasy, almost every modern shonen battle anime – all giving creepshots or sexual harassment scenes about underage girls. It’s genuinely unavoidable.
Or just don’t watch anything that sexualizes children. Pretty well cuts off half or more of the anime out there but I’m not a pedo or interested in watching pedo shit.
i wonder whether there’s a filtered anime streaming platform for western audiences specifically.
also at that point why would you bother with anime at all? just watch western cartoons / animations, there’s many of them too.
The thing is that anime is usually really good for the themes and story and art, but they occasionally sprinkle turds into it, so you kind of metaphorically eat around them. It’s still worth watching as long as you can compartmentalize and ignore the bad parts.
You just reminded me, years ago, I used to burn custom handmade censored versions of anime and tv shows for my family. I’d sit there after school for hours in a video editor cutting out every sex scene in Game of Thrones, every loli scene in anime. Then I’d burn that to a DVD-RW and recreate the disc art using a sharpie. Finally I watched it with everyone on the DVD player.
In retrospect it was a lot of work just to share my favourite shows with my family, but I don’t regret it.
Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here. That’s what makes the translation inaccurate in some contexts.
So we need to translate it so the audience undertands there’s a level of implied cultural acceptance of pedos. How’s this?
“I didn’t know you were a redditor”
That sounds like not calling a cannibal a cannibal because of the negative connotation which the word doesn’t have in cannibal culture
So small-minded? Let me remind you that “cannibal” is originally an ethnonym coined by Columbus for the native Caribbean people, whose culture certainly had a lot more nuance than just eating people.
So what you’re saying is that culturally Japan doesn’t have as much of a problem with pedophilia as english speaking countries. That’s not really a defense or a refutation that lolicon means pedophile.
That is so weird to me that a society with much more Shame basis for stuff does not shame attraction to and relationships with minors.
On the other hand I’ve always wondered when is shame effective as a social motivator to prevent misdeeds, and when does it push people to hide their problems instead of seeking help and solutions?
Because what a culture considers immoral is not the same as whether they use shame to police immorality.
You make an important distinction. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t consider it immoral when in the west it seems intrinsically immoral to most people.
I’ve read Naomi and Memoirs of a Geisha so Ive had some exposure to some of the cultural ideas, but i guess I’m looking for a scholarly article or educational text explaining the differences
It’s a relatively recent thing in the west, too. Not too long ago (well into the previous century) most girls were married off by their 15th or 16th birthday. “Fun” fact: there’s still a lot of child marriage in the US to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
Japan isn’t actually substantially different in this regard – sure, they have their teen idols, but then so does the US (Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, what have you) – except they draw a clear line between fictional and real child pornography, both legally and in terms of general attitudes. The legal part isn’t that strange (lolicon material isn’t illegal in most of the US either), but the way general morality permits it in Japan but doesn’t in the US is interesting. My guess is that this is partially explained by the US generally being pretty puritanical when it comes to sexuality, whereas Japan is more liberal about it (in their own way), but that can’t be the only thing because European countries do not have the puritan culture of the US but also don’t share the Japanese tolerance of lolicon.
many french philosophers around 1930 asked for the legalization of relation to minors. they failed probably mostly because of american influence. america, in turn, has very repressive views about sexuality in general, not just involving minors. think of the purple scare. i think it has to do with the church of england thinking that “sexuality is bad because it represents the serpent” from the tree of life while the bird represents knowledge, so people should study and seek knowledge instead of seeking sexual interactions.
not intrinsically, at least not for long. in most of europe it was legal up until the 90s and there were even porno mags that ran specials.
…i do compulsive late night wiki walks, before you ask how i know that. i had a period where i read up on what happened to the “flower power” generation with all their “free love” stuff and that came up. i tend to do breadth-first search so i just read through articles while opening all the links in the background, then go down a level, etc etc. when a term like that comes up on a wiki page it triggers your fight-or-flight response.
I don’t have scholarly references or anything, but the standard for this varies massively across cultures. Just looking at the West, the age at which it was thought appropriate to get married used to be wayyy lower than it is now. In Ancient Greece, a particular form of pederasty was celebrated as an especially pure form of relationship.
Nowadays we have robust evidence that sexual activity between an adult and a child is severely harmful. However, even this we can’t legitimately extend too far cross-culturally, because we don’t (as far as I know) have any certainty that this isn’t conferred due to the child being the victim of a socially-defined crime. The question one could ask is: given that Ancient Greece didn’t categorise their form of paedophilia as a violation, did the children in those relationships therefore not suffer in the same way as modern victims of paedophilia? It’s an uncomfortable question, and even asking it will probably make most people nope out, but it’s very useful to be sharp about what we do and don’t know.
The issue is the power imbalance, not the criminalization.
And you know that for a fact? I mean, obviously it could be. As far as I know there is no evidence for it, and getting that evidence will be incredibly difficult.
Wait, you’re actually arguing kids can consent?
No.
This is a hill I am willing to die on. Consent is mandatory and the weak side of a power imbalance can’t consent.
Your reply doesn’t indicate any knowledge or evidence of harm. You’ve started talking about something else.
Sure, consent is key.
Ah, yes, Japan - famously not a shame policing place. Maybe I should commit seppuku for this dishonor.
You have misunderstood me…
Well if the powers that be shamed attraction to and relationships with minors, they would have to accept that forcing themselves on people who aren’t in a position to refuse consent is shameful, and then they would have to answer some very uncomfortable questions about what some of their heroes did in Korea and China …