Note, I’m neither American, nor heavily in that scene. I’m merely signal boosting what I feel is important information countering lib propaganda.
I’ve kept quiet about this online so far, but my local 50501/no kings organizers are dangerously uninformed about organizing protests and haven’t taken any of the experienced local organizer’s advice about security at these events. They’re literally primarily organized on a “liberal women’s” Facebook group. At least in my area, experienced community organizers have been staying well clear of their mess. Let them gather all the white liberals from the suburbs to go kettle themselves on a pedestrian bridge and yell at cars passing them by. They’ll learn why the experienced community defenders don’t want anything to do with them after it’s too late, but it’s not like any of us are surprised by right wingers coopting and declawing a protest movement.
That’s the signal I keep hearing as well
The witnesses to the event were frightened for their lives and said he raised his gun. Even if he wasn’t intending to do a mass shooting, which I am still unconvinced of, his actions were dangerously stupid and he absolutely should be held responsible for creating a situation in which another person felt they needed to use lethal force.
The witnesses to the event were frightened for their lives and said he raised his gun.
Do you know just how unreliable witness reports in traumatic situations are? We have no clue what actually happened.
We have the video of him running towards the crowd with his gun in a ready position. Whether he’s a leftist or not, his actions were unbelievably stupid and put the lives of everyone around him in danger. Him being shot was totally reasonable, the only tragedy here is that an innocent person died.
His actions were justified given that he was being shot at. I disagree wholly with you. I think the whole US gun-carry society is stupid and causes these stupid deaths, but within that context, I didn’t see him doing anything wrong except trusting libs to act reasonably.
Weird, but watching the video I see him running from something, not towards anyone.
Are you saying when you run away from someone you drop your arms to your side? Anything you are carrying is probably pulled towards your chest so you aren’t unbalanced and trip and fall.
Saying it’s the “ready” position is inferring intent that may not be there.
What intent would you infer from him concealing the weapon and hiding among the crowd?
He was just wrongly shot by a trigger-happy psycho who may be hunting him? If he wanted to shoot people he was well within range to do so. Why would he need to charge the crowd to do that? Why didn’t he shoot anyone after charging them? There is nothing to support the narrative that he was violent.
Wrongly shot? Are you saying it’s unreasonable to see a person come out of an alley with a long rifle they didn’t see before, and assume that person is about to do a mass shooting?
If so, why do you assume it’s unreasonable to think that? And would you still think it’s unreasonable to be worried about a mas shooting if you knew for sure the person was right-wing or MAGA?
I just gotta ask, what do those cops pay? I mean that “what” too because I know we both know cash has neg value. I can tell, you are part of something nefarious. Confess now or they gonna pull that trigger on you. Just Sayan’
Wrongly shot? Are you saying it’s unreasonable to see a person come out of an alley with a long rifle they didn’t see before, and assume that person is about to do a mass shooting?
When open carry is legal, yeah, it’s unreasonable (if you want to argue that allowing people to carry firearms is stupid I’d agree with you, but that was the situation here so the participants need to act appropriately). He wasn’t holding the rifle in a threatening manner or pointing it at the crowd. You can see this in the video. There was nothing to indicate he was about to shoot someone. If he was MAGA or not is irrelevant, carrying a rifle where carrying is legal is not implicitly a threat. There has to be more than that before you start shooting at someone.
After being shot at? “Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck. Someone is trying to kill me. I gotta hide.”
I’ve considered getting a conceal carry license. My use of a gun, if something were to happen is to try and give me a chance to run away. I don’t want to stand my ground when bullets start flying. I don’t want to kill who is shooting. I just want to get to safety.
So you think concealing your weapon when police are looking for an active shooter is the smart thing to do? Instead of getting rid of the weapon, or even surrendering?
I’m trying to suspend my disbelief that you would do something so unbelievably stupid and ill advised for your own survival. Because somebody who does something like that is someone that doesn’t intend on surviving.
I don’t presume to know what he is thinking.
However, if I went to a protest where:
- I was legally carrying my weapon.
- I did not fire any rounds.
- I heard “drop your weapon” (which I may not know was directed at me.)
- I heard gunfire.
- I ran to safety.
I may not know the “active shooter” was me, because I did not shoot a single round. I could consider putting my weapon away so the police, who have been known to shoot a “good guy with a gun” don’t mistake me for the active shooter.
Video of the incident that shows the “peacekeepers” and cops made up their story.
wait, so somebody shot him and he’s being charged with murder?
Why is that strange? Do you not live in a place with laws?
How does being shot make you the murderer and what law is that following
So you don’t live in a place with laws? Must be nice.
what the fuck are you saying
This is what laws are for, america is just a little more explicit about it than most places.
The person you’re talking to isn’t really doing a good job of anything really, but the law they are referencing is felony murder. If you’re committing a felony and someone dies as a result of said felony, whether you directly caused it or not, you can be charged with murder for that death.
I don’t know much about its use, but it sounds like an enhancement charge and enhancement charges are bullshit, so it’s probably mostly abused by cops to fuck minorities.
No im saying laws are tools for the manufacture of consent, usually at the cost of truth, justice, freedom.
Yes, because his actions made someone fearful for their lives, or the lives of bystanders. That’s all you need in most states for it to be self defense on the part of the peacekeeper. The actions of this supposed anarchist created the conditions that got someone killed, so he was charged with their deaths.
This is a normal thing in fascist USA. The cops murder people and then prosecute the surviving victims for it.
Right. Those bullet thieves are usually guilty though.
This explains the convulated reporting I suppose
There’s not much that’s more fascist than cops killing people and then prosecuting the surviving victims. Totally normal in USA.
Zero surprise that normies eat it up. We’re indoctrinated into copaganda our while lives.
cops didn’t fire the shots, volunteers did
Not police, just peace police. ACAB.
Firing peaceful bullets
I don’t see any explanation of why he was trying to blend in with the crowd while injured and hiding his weapon in his backpack. Why didn’t he work with the protest group to get on their protection detail.
Really?
Please do not victim blame. People act strange when being shot at sometimes. He was within his rights to carry and not work with official organizations.
He raised his firearm at the crowd and ran towards them when he was ordered to drop his weapon. He’s not victim, he’s an idiot at best, and a terrorist at worst.
You keep repeating these narratives, but youre just damaging your ien credibility.
Now im thinking ‘_cryptagion’ agreed with me, i should probably double check my sources.
I’m a random person on the internet. I don’t have any credibility, anymore than you do. And if you believe something on the internet just because someone you think has credibility said it, then you’re just giving up your free will to someone else.
any more than you do
True. And i lie about everything that isnt sarcasm.
believe
No im saying if you agree, it’s reason to doubt.
big philosophy
How do you think people work?
How do you think this ‘free will’ works?
Do you think everyone’s as dishonest as you?
What do you think ‘credibility’ is?
What do you think is going on with this wacky ‘internet’ thing?
Are you still butthurt over me tossing a ban at you for being an anti-genAI chud? You gotta get over petty stuff like that.
LOL that was you? App i use didn’t say.
Okay, so, i no longer think you’re malicious or being paid.
You’re saying this with a lot of confidence you just shouldn’t have here. Something’s up, maybe memtal illness, maybe panic, maybe conspiracy, but something.
So, when you first heard of someone being shot at the protest, your first thought was “Something’s up, maybe memtal illness, maybe panic, maybe conspiracy, but something”? Or is that your opinion now that he’s allegedly a leftist?
Because if it’s the latter, then how is that different than what MAGA does for right-wing terrorism? How is it different than what they are doing right now for a man who assassinated two democrats?
Something was off in the first descriptions.
how is that different
Than the guy who purchased data on his targets walked in with a disguise, killed them, killed their dog, and posted a manifesto about it?
I guess it’s not.
Something was off in the first descriptions.
Than the guy who purchased data on his targets walked in with a disguise, killed them, killed their dog, and posted a manifesto about it?
Which you didn’t know about him when the first reports about it came out either. Before this person was thought to be a leftist, there was a lot of condemnation of his actions. But now that he’s a friendly, that condemnation has suddenly vanished. That’s the sort of mental gymnastics MAG is known for. Why are people suddenly bending over backwards giving him the benefit of the doubt, when everyone wasn’t the day it happened?
I literally said it’s not different!
And yes, my anarchist senses were tingling on the first reports here. I just knew.
people were
Yeah, you caught me. Im the mystical anthropomorphized fuhrer-principle-but-real-and-for-anarchists.
Are we certain that this is the case? I cannot find video evidence and I am not inclined to believe the sources I have read.
Hexbear has the video. He absolutely run towards the crowd, and it looks like he ducks and starts raising the rifle.
Can you share it with the class? I couldn’t find it on Hexbear or through a web search.
Thanks.
I watched it several times in slow-mo. Seems to me like Arturo was walking towards the crowd before the peacekeeper fired, but he started running after the first shot in response to the shot. Looks like the barrel is down until shooting starts, at which point it goes up like 30° but still pointed at the ground. Video is quite blurry, from a distance, and doesn’t show the lead-up or aftermath of the shooting.
Utah is an open-carry state and it doesn’t seem like he was doing anything other than walking towards the protest with a gun, which is legal and expected behavior in that state.
But IMO Arturo is innocent until proven guilty, and if anything this is evidence that suggests his innocence.
??? All I see is him ducking and running after presumedly getting shot at. Who wouldn’t do that? Gonna wait for more evidence before I take such a hard stance like you have man sheesh.
He sucks after you hear a round get fired. If someone is shooting at me, I run the fuck away and duck.
And he pulled the rifle towards his chest (not raising it) to stay balanced so he can run the fuck away from the guy who actually was shooting at him.
OK, let’s put him aside totally for a moment. I want to know if you would leave a protest, grab a weapon you had hidden, and return to the protest?
I think hidden has a strong implication is that he didn’t want it seen.
It sounds like it was in a bag, which to me is a valid way to carry a heavy item until he got to where he was going to practice the completely legal and allowed open-carry.
It’s like saying my laptop is hidden because I keep it in my backpack and take it out when I get to a coffee shop.
Yeah, you’re fucking close to nailing by misleading and misdirection to support the acception of the thorough and complete death of all of the Declaration.
I warned you.
While people are pointing guns at him, and potentially already shooting him. Anyone would panic in that situation. Fact of the matter is that he was perfectly peaceful until someone escalated massively.
That situation is one of his own creation. He wasn’t marching with his weapon, he hid it and only pulled it out in the middle.
Come on, man, you can’t tell me that that isn’t incredibly suspicious. If I saw someone do that at a protest, I would shoot them too. I’m not saying that the peacekeeper didn’t fuck up, he didn’t check his background, but his actions were definitely reasonable, given the situation.
I think their only mistake is going to a lib march when plenty of anarchists warned others to stay far away from it. I also think what you’re doing is victim blaming.
Watch the video, he never raised his rifle at the crowd
It didn’t really look like he raised his weapon towards the crowd. He had it lowered they either started yelling or shooting, hard to tell from the video, he only raised it into a running stance. It was still pointed mostly sideways.
I thought the video would be a slam dunk against him, but it just looks like he panicked when the shooting started and ran away.
Yeah send Venmo money to this random QR code! Clowns
Yeah send Venmo money to this random QR code!
Yeah actually, who does this actually get Venmo’ed to? The Mastodon post didn’t really clarify that IMO.
Nooooooo. It’s a leftist DO NOT BRING FACTS AND LOGIC just support them blindly and “amplify the message” from somewhere you don’t live or know jus because it aligns with your narrative.
Kinda crazy tbh. At least it’s not Twitter I guess.
Link to the reports? Any actual evidence or is it statement by the police?
Police statements, which have now been utterly disproven by multiple angles of video footage coming out which show that Arturo was in full view of the protest the entire time and never raised his rifle.
It also shows that peacekeepers never made any attempts to interact with him even once and as soon as Arturo began to rejoin the crowd after strapping up, one of them immediately fired on him, directly into the crowd and fatally hitting an innocent bystander.
Thankfully, Arturo has been released and has not faced any charges. Hopefully it stays that way and the actual shooters face consequence.
The clip shows he’s not in a ready to shoot position
What clip, nothing in this post is a clip, nothing in the link is a clip its all images.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/47012172/19515897
Literally top comment
Video entirely misses all the context of the moments leading up to the shots being fired. SOLID evidence
Yeah it’s some evidence vs hearsay and speculation…
You clearly have not interested with anarchists before
That smells like a “he’s coming right for us” bullshit report.
So how do you explain away the whole showing up with your rifle hidden in a backpack, and then hiding to take it out. Open carry all you want, why the fuck would you do that in the middle of a tense protest
strategy of tension ass shit
Yeah maybe accepting libs as allies is a mistake.
Yeah maybe accepting libs as allies is a mistake.
Who coulda thunk it?
Welcome to what i have seen called the ‘years of lead paint’.
Note to self: aim and fire your weapon after being shot.
At the least, it’s reasonable to expect someone who claims to be an “armed peacekeeper” to check their background before shooting. I don’t know if that firearms sin is worth criminal charges or not, but it’s bad practice.
Ok but if he was armed and this ICE guy took shots at him why didn’t he fire back? That’s the whole point of him having a gun in the first place, right?
It’s really hard to act predictably when there’s people pointing guns at each other.
Like really really difficult. You don’t have any context for decisions, and everything feels kind of surreal. Anyone who says they know how they would act for sure is probably lying. Anyone who says they know for sure how someone else would act is probably talking shit.
the kind of ambient possibility that opens up when things are on the knife’s edge of violence
Well that perfectly sums up my idle thoughts for the ~20 months I spent on pumps between Iraq and Afghanistan.
Maybe also why all the innovations in fighting come from queers.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.
Oh. Most new doctrine that doesnt suck is from queer people. Sometimes, like the way the doctrine of ‘special forces’ was invented, it is itself a gay thing.
While I don’t want to take anything away from any queer pioneers in the war fighting space, that’s a broad enough claim that I’m gonna need a source to back it up.
Sacred band of thebes. Kinda the first special forces unit. Who touches whose dick was formalized.
Early horse archers came from the same cultures as the first recorded hrt for trans women.
There’s some stuff in the middle ages/renaisance. Fredrick the great, wasn’t he one of the big innovators in early pike&shot? Certainly about half as straight as alexander the great.
There’s a bunch i can’t think of right now because im very high.
I know T.E. Lawrence was either gay or ace.
I thimk there’s also a big modern naval one, but it gets harder to know starting ~100 years ago
What ice guy?
I just assume every jackbooted thug in the states at the moment belongs to ICE
It is very unclear to me whether the “armed, yellow-vested ‘peacekeepers’” this and other articles keep talking about actually are jackbooted thugs or whether they were affiliated with 50501 and there to protect the protestors. It sounds more like the latter and that this was a case of antifascist friendly-fire.
Wow. Bigot.
American jackbooted thuggery is a diverse rainbow of institutions and traditions. It’s kind of a huge part of american culture. Maybe don’t be so insensitive and flatten entire cultures into charicatures?
You know what, I was being sexist, too. Talking only about the jackbooted thugs, I completely ignored all their jillbooted sisters, and whatever other non-aligned-bootwear compadres as well.
I’m so ashamed. I’m going to get up and clean our litter boxes and really huff that ammonia. It’s not much, but I hope it’s one step towards redemption.
Maybe he panicked? Maybe he didn’t want to hit bystanders. None of us have been shot before, but from all I know, all rational thought easily goes out the window.
It certainly stings a bit more than a light tickle, to be sure
I understand the need to not give the jackboots an excuse, but WTF is this HOA nonsense at a protest?
They’re doing it everywhere. So they can get pictures of everyone’s face for their Palantir gestapo database
Yeah, given the moment in the US, wearing a mask is just the prudent thing to do. The government’s own agents are doing it.
I dont actually think thats the reason. I think its a, misguided, attempt to be able to say “look, its a peaceful protest!”
That’s certainly the messaging that organizations like Palantir would like you to believe
I’m remembering back to the story just a couple of days ago and I’m thinking about all the commenters who immediately accepted the story of the ‘peacekeeper’ guy - and the official line from the police - that Arturo was raising his weapon and heading towards the crowd, so the ‘peacekeeper’ shot “in defence of the crowd”. Many commenters repeated the line he had been, “likely about to do a mass murder - it’s very sad that a bystander died, but they just prevented a shooting spree”. Anyone saying ‘wtf why is the actual killer not arrested’ and suggesting that we only had one side of the story (the killer’s, who the cops were suspiciously immediately siding with) and that there is no proof beyond biased witness claims yet - was being downvoted.
Remember this shit next time you take the word of the police at face value when very few facts are available.
A single blurry still doesn’t pose a convincing argument that he was or wasn’t pointing the weapon towards the crowds.
I’ve not seen enough to conclude either way. So many contradicting things.
If you were wanting to assist with security, when someone obviously doing security addresses you then you’d try and comply, and explain your intent. But did the security actually address him? Or did he just run away from a gun pointed at him? Or did he have his gun pointed in the direction of the crowd while moving towards the crowd and ignoring security? Much of this doesn’t make sense.
The burden of proof is on the ones accusing and having people detained.
You don’t have to prove you didn’t do something. The state has to prove that you did do it. We should assume he is innocent in the absence of evidence.
If you want to know what actually happened, just listen to the cops and then believe the opposite.
I like the spirit, but IMO we need more “on the ground” details to come to an actual conclusion. Cops suck but there are lots of ways to come up with “the opposite story”.
I’m working under “innocent until proven guilty” logic, but as of this posting I absolutely cannot make any positive conclusion about what happened other than the one second video clip posted in the comments.
That clip is already enough to contradict the security dudes’ statement.
Security was across the street and started shooting before he ever acknowledged them. They were far enough that it’s conceivable he didn’t hear them at all. He didn’t run until they fired. This is all in the link they provided. It’s a video, not a still.
A single blurry still doesn’t pose a convincing argument that he was or wasn’t pointing the weapon towards the crowds.
We don’t go around making plausible reasons and then asking the victim to prove them wrong. Maybe the killers are lying to cover their ass?
Facts on the ground is: Arturo didn’t shoot anyone, had a right to carry, a bystander was killed by the “good guys” and Arturo was shot himself. Nothing in all of this proves that Arturo was a danger to anyone.
“Innocent until proven guilty” mfs when the accused is a leftist
The victim blaming with assumed narratives no less, is astounding.
What, you expect me to have evidence?
Just because he didn’t shoot anyone, doesn’t mean his alleged actions wouldn’t cause the same reaction or worse from any other reasonable person.
Again, things aren’t lining up with the two sides/stories.
Ye which is why I’m inclined to believe the non-killer’s story rather than the ones with the most incentive to lie
Both have a very high incentive to lie.
Unless more evidence appears, I’m more inclined to believe the person who didn’t shoot anyone, even when they had plenty of opportunity to do so (in self defense no less) and have a history of protecting others.
And I’m not telling you not to. I’m just saying I’m unconvinced, and without more factual information I can’t make a decision either way.
Yep this really just seems like a tragedy from someone being overzealous. In the end only hurting allies. There’s no good outcome from this. But arguably the worst I think is to demonize an ally in an attempt to deflect blame. By shooting “preemptively” they’re where there blame lays unfortunately.
I don’t necessarily think that there should be imprisonment or jail in this for anyone. It was all completely unintentional. And doesn’t serve any public good. But I think unfortunately a lot of people are going to want someone to crucify or demonize.
