• barsoap@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Damn hack journalists. The quote is from Petra Kelly (page 768, 82 in pdf) founding member of the German Greens:

        But when the laws of the state are in open rebellion against divine law, … then resistance is a duty, but obedience is a crime.

        …she was dishing it out with the CDU that’s why she quoted a Pope, in particular Pope Leo XIII:

        1. But, if the laws of the State are manifestly at variance with the divine law, containing enactments hurtful to the Church, or conveying injunctions adverse to the duties imposed by religion, or if they violate in the person of the supreme Pontiff the authority of Jesus Christ, then, truly, to resist becomes a positive duty, to obey, a crime

        It then percolated through general Green-adjacent political spheres as a slogan and became “Wenn Unrecht zu Recht wird, dann wird Widerstand zur Pflicht”, “When injustice becomes law, then resistance becomes duty”, losing the “and obedience a crime” part. Usually attributed to Brecht, who probably wouldn’t mind, totally something he’d say. “I can’t eat enough for as much as I want to barf” isn’t Brecht, either, it’s Dürrenmatt. Actual Brecht quotes include “Who does not know the truth is just an idiot, but who knows the truth and calls it a lie is a criminal” as well as “First comes fodder, then morals”. Also, movie recommendation.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.worldBanned
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          7 months ago

          In any case, a good rule.

          Try telling it to people with relatives\connections behind government desks, even small ones. They immediately either have this absent look as if they are calculating with effort how to best hurt you, or the absolutely hateful look as if no piece of you should exist.

          That kind of reaction (EDIT: being so prevalent among that group of people) alone hints that today’s state bureaucracies have overstayed their welcome.

  • corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
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    7 months ago

    I wanna see security footage of them posted online, so other businesses in the area know there are vigilantes posing as secret police.

  • i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca
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    7 months ago

    From the set up, I’d have expected the agents to have unleashed whatever was in that manila folder. You’d think it was important if it was one of the only things they brought in.

    Now I’m thinking it was less ICE agents carrying a warrant and more “militia leader bought a pack of folders at Staples” and told his racist minions a folder will get you through doors like wearing hi-vis or a ladder will.

    • A_norny_mousse@feddit.org
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      7 months ago

      Yep. The Germans coined a nice term, critically: Vorauseilender Gehorsam - pre-emptive obedience. Don’t do it.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.worldBanned
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        7 months ago

        Sometimes not doing it may cost you. When the society is in terminal stage, that is.

        When everyone does “preemptive obedience”, just not doing it and politely asking “ok, but who you are, please provide some identification and such, or at least explain me how you are different from a random person demanding it, I don’t know who you are and why are you demanding this” might cause dangerous levels of fury in someone who is not a random person, unfortunately, just treats a request for their correct identification (which they would be able to provide) and reasons as an insult.

        To not let it reach that level, you shouldn’t, yes.

        Actually maybe we will have a period of history when Germans save everyone from tyranny. I’ve read they are thinking of returning conscription and are growing military industries rapidly. Maybe for a good cause this time. Should be their turn. LOL.

    • Denjin@lemmings.world
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      7 months ago

      Isn’t this the exact reason Americans have so many guns, to oppose tyranny at the hands of the state? Funny how the most vehemently anti-gun control people are the same ones clapping and cheering as government thugs bundle people into detention centers without warrants.

  • Hikuro-93@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    So how long until real criminals start following suit and impersonating undercover ICE agents? Not like there’s much distinction between either “career” now, is there?

    And then how long until ICE agents start showing up with holes on the ground because property owners “thought” they were real street thugs trying to rob them? Is there even a way to tell the difference? ~wink wink~

    • qarbone@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      They’d be caught out too quickly.

      “Hey, wait a second! Yeah, you’re holding me at gunpoint but you’re asking me to put the money in the bag? But real ICE would have just kidnapped me!”

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.worldBanned
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      7 months ago

      And then how long until ICE agents start showing up with holes on the ground because property owners “thought” they were real street thugs trying to rob them? Is there even a way to tell the difference? ~wink wink~

      Should happen more often, this aversion to civil violence is a bit like a game of “I drop my weapon, you drop yours” between governments and people, except governments never fulfill their part.

      Like Russian opposition trying to do “everything by the law” until realizing the other side never was, it was just silent enough in killing and randomly vanishing people and pretending its just dumb thieves. The same is happening in the EU right now, they just don’t know it yet.

  • Avicenna@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some cop who ate there wasn’t happy with the service he got and organised this shenanigan

  • Wilco@lemm.ee
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    7 months ago

    Spoiler: They do need a warrant.

    Also “you are tresspassed” is a magical phrase that turns ICE agents into criminals and armed ICE agents into armed criminals that you can pull a weapon on.

      • Wilco@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Hmm, I would check your local law. That is not how it generally works. If someone is on your property and you tell them to leave and that they are trespassed, then they have to leave. Failure to leave is almost always a crime in progress.

      • kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Only law enforcement can enforce the trespass. But you are trespassed when informed by a person with authority over the property that your presence is not welcome there. If they fail to leave, you can follow up in the courts.

    • Diplomjodler@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Funnily enough the “second amendment” crowd has been completely silent about all this shit. But people really have to use those stand your ground laws.

      • BigxRedxHusker@midwest.social
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        7 months ago

        I’ve given up on humanity after the racist Karen in Minneapolis raised a shitload of money off of a Christian based fundraising website while pretending to be the victim of calling a 5 year old racial slurs.

        Like we have a problem. Society preinternet didn’t have this problem, society after internet didn’t have this problem you could be called a dick with no recourse.

        Once society figured out you can just make money on being a racist asshole and be crowd funded for it, that’s when society went to shit

        • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
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          7 months ago

          I saw that headline a few days ago. Was that all it took to make you give up on humanity? Trying to understand.

            • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
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              7 months ago

              Understood. It’s a shame to lose you at the start of the fight, but get what you need to hang on and recover.

              One strategy I’ve found helpful is taking little breaks from political news and spending time with those around you. It’s been a good antidote for the despair of the news cycle.

              And if you need someone to talk to I’m here.

              • BigxRedxHusker@midwest.social
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                7 months ago

                I’ve taken a big step back from most apps and social media in general, unless I’m playing Xbox online for 2 hours after 10p’m hardly using the Internet for anything else. .

                Plus just got done with daughters club volleyball, now it’s onto softball season… working with her on pitching have to use a lot of YouTube for that because I don’t know how to pitch fast softball. So we’re both sort of learning as we go.

                She’s got a Canon for a arm. Like has made my hand hurt on multiple occasions from 40 feet for only being 11. Ive been trying to teach accuracy over speed and a actual coach said not to do that. If they have natural speed. Let them pitch fast and ccuracy will come later.

                She’s improved. I’d say 3/10 are strikes, 5/10 will probably get someone to swing at. The other two watch your shins or head 😅. Or in my case sitting on a 5 gallon bucket, the family jewelry. Have had a few close calls

                • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
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                  7 months ago

                  Sorry for delay. Had to take care of a few things offline.

                  step back from social media

                  That’s pretty huge. Everyone I’ve known who did that said it improved their life and mental health in lots of ways, and the harder their exit the more enthusiastic they were. Tried it myself back in 2012, and stuff probably wasn’t even as bad back then, but deleting google facebook twitter snap etc really did help me build better relationships and enjoy life more. I still text/chat people and use some forums like lemmy but never have to worry about an algorithm trying to fuck with my head lol

                  daughter mobile softball turret

                  That is wonderful! While I don’t have kids, I know the feeling of helping young people discover things they’re good at and it’s deeply gratifying. Really cool that you’re there to practice with her too. Having a parent who’s there isn’t a given yet helps so much with basically everything.

                  3/10 strikes 5/10 swing

                  From what I understand of baseball rules, that would mean like 8/10 over the plate or close enough for the hitter to attempt? 80% success sounds damn good for a new player. Is it possible she has some natural athleticism and/or hand-eye coordination?

                  learning together

                  Ditto re: softball knowledge; could only guess where to begin. Did see a few rounds of a softball game at a pub once and noticed the pitcher would deliberately bounce the ball, which I thought wasn’t a thing in regular baseball. Is this something pitchers in her league practice, like a type of pitch?

              • DontMakeMoreBabies@piefed.social
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                7 months ago

                Our species is trash - it has nothing to do with the news cycle. There are just too many fucking stupid people that are being allowed to shit out legions of children.

                I sincerely wish there was a virus that killed people who were “too dumb.” It’d be much more peaceful…

                #ThanosWasOntoSomething

                • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
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                  7 months ago

                  #HeWasntAndYouKnowIt

                  The solution to ignorance is knowledge, not eugenics. Also get your ass into therapy before hate consumes you.

      • shalafi@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I’m not a big 2A guy, but I’m more than well armed and practiced, and I haven’t shut up about shooting anyone attempting these kidnappings.

      • BetaBlake@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Most of the second amendment crowd have a “daddy” fetish and want to be ruled by a strongman figure. Mostly cuckish cowards

        • timbuck2themoon@sh.itjust.works
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          7 months ago

          That and the 2a isn’t necessary for resistance. Been done in places without it obviously.

          And yes, seems most of them seem quite happy with the current situation. Funny that.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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            7 months ago

            Yep. The common myth is that 2A is for defence against tyranny, but it’s clearly about having people armed and trained to be ready to fight if they’re needed against an invading nation. That’s what the military was in the day: militias, not standing armies.

            2A is broken and shouldn’t apply to the modern day, but that doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter why we are allowed to have weapons, just that we are and we should defend against those trying to intrude on the rights of others.

            • rottingleaf@lemmy.worldBanned
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              7 months ago

              Militia is army in Latin, but in the day it already meant how people generally understand it now.

              Also you are notoriously wrong about “not standing armies”, people were recruited and served for many years. Of course militaries were scaled up and down depending if it was wartime. Mandatory conscription and mobilization were a new tendency that, in some sense, led to WWI.

              I think I want to play “Victoria” again.

              2A is broken and shouldn’t apply to the modern day, but that doesn’t really matter.

              Yes! Glad you understand that.

              There’s a dialectic law with constitutional rights - if they are not on paper, then someone might say they don’t exist. If they are on paper, then someone might say they are given by that paper and exactly as much as written and intended.

              Rights just exist, they are a transcendent object that can’t be defined or limited by laws.

              I’ve been called a sovcit for saying that, despite it being pretty logical that if rights are limited and defined by law, then over time you’ll have fewer and fewer rights and not vice versa.

              • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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                7 months ago

                Rights just exist, they are a transcendent object that can’t be defined or limited by laws.

                I don’t think rights exist in any meaningful way unless enforced / people agree to follow them. They’re just norms in a nicer suit. There’s no external referee that’s going to stop the game because “your rights are being violated”.

  • minorkeys@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Cops will take as much freedom as you give them and often they will attempt more than they have been granted. Never give cops an inch they are not legally entitled to. In democracies, laws exist to grant people freedom from the power of the state, not to grant the state freedom from the power of the people. Any laws that grant cops protection from the people are laws of a tyranny. We get only the protections of the state that our rights make possible and no more. Trading freedom for security gets us neither.

    • goldfndr@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      In democracies, laws exist to grant people freedom from the power of the state, not to grant the state freedom from the power of the people. Any laws that grant cops protection from the people are laws of a tyranny. We get only the protections of the state that our rights make possible and no more. Trading freedom for security gets us neither.

      Correction: In democracies, laws exist to grant power to the state, not to grant people freedom from the state. For example, I’m guessing that in your nearest democracy, there’s probably not a law granting you the freedom to stand still for more than a minute or lie down for more than a minute. The people’s freedom is a default.

      Now, perhaps what you were thinking of was that some laws have exceptions (that might be phrased as affirmative defenses). But those aren’t granting freedom to the people, they are restricting law enforcement. It’s like a “tax refund” — the government isn’t giving you their money, it’s returning your own money.

  • Panamalt@sh.itjust.works
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    7 months ago

    This is America, the most well armed nation in the world, push us far enough and that manilla folder gonna be full of holes.

      • Panamalt@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        Go corner a wild animal and see what happens.

        For those that have only lived comfortable and safe lives, the line where they bite back is far away, and for others that know pain or oppression, the line is a lot closer. But the line always exists, and with the way everything is going right now, we are all diving face-first over that line sooner or later.

      • metallic_substance@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        There will come a breaking point though. I hope to never see it, but there is a line that can be crossed that will move people to action. I’ll admit, it might be further than it should be, but it’s there. Americans may be complacent, but people are people