I do believe a lot of people – and the mainstream news media here in the states – want to believe this is normal and this is fine the way Trump kept wishing on camera COVID-19 was going to just go away on its own, even as CDC discovered enough instances to declare it has infected the community (e.g. the American public) and could no longer be contained via specific isolation.
They are so desperate to for things to be normal that they want to justify the outrageousness as within the threshold of normal any way they can.
I’m not sure, but Trump behaves as if he likes pushing that envelope, much the way he forced Robert Kennedy Jr. to eat McDonalds to assert dominance.
The thing that bothers me most about this argument is, if it WAS indeed an accident, any decent person would be horrified it was taken that way, and would immediately clarify what they meant, or apologize and reaffirm that they are not a nazi.
And yet, it’s crickets from him. If he’s not willing to do that extremely basic thing, he doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. He’s a nazi.
He did it twice for emphasis. Elon Musk is a Nazi. Elon Musk wants to burn Jews and gay people.
I doubt that he wants to burn Jews and gay people.
Because he’s proven himself to be a sensible well regulated person?
There’s plenty of people in the world who are not sensible and not well regulated that don’t wish to burn Jews and gay people.
Yes but they are generally not Nazis
Exactly! Not all unsensible and unregulated people are Nazis.
How is that a rebuttal? Being a sociopath is definitely a characteristic of a Nazi. Not all sociopaths are homophobic anti-Semites, but I bet you know something all Nazis have in common. He’s proven himself to be a sociopath. Him being Nazi seems a lot more plausible than him being misunderstood.
Not everyone who is not sensible and not well-regulated is a sociopath. I’m not saying he is or isn’t. But there’s def non-sociopath people who are not sensible and not well-regulated.
Do I think he did an actual salute? Honestly, I just think he got excited and tried to improvise some kind of “thank you” gesture. I’m going to forget about this in a week anyway.
Do I think he’s a nazi? Yeah.
Plus, the wealth he hoards can solve some societal problems forever. That’s more than enough for him to qualify as an evil bastard.
He’s going to gut all the government agencies investigating his shitty business practices.
That whole cabinet is going to fuck absolutely everything up astronomically.
He did it twice in a row. There is no way it’s an accident
I mean if that’s where someone’s head goes when improvising a thanks it’s kinda telling…
Every expert asked says he did a Nazi salute. There’s a gif that makes the comparison obvious, especially with the hand-on-heart
It’s so ridiculous that experts have to even weigh in on this issue. Its clear as fucking day, he gave the Nazi salute, TWICE. On national television, at a rally on the inauguration day of the current american president. This whole situation is completely insane.
He was flaunting and hoping rubes like you would make up his counter narrative. Good job, piss boy.
Lol so hostile to someone who agrees with you on everything except this one thing
Alright, man. I won’t die on this hill. He did a nazi salute.
Now can we fucking move on? Israel launched an attack on the West Bank, and this stupid shit is dominating the news cycle.
Yeah I think that this is pretty relevant if:
The President of the country that provides most of the support and bombs for that’s Lead Advisor/Broligarch4Life is jumping around doing Nazi salutes at his celebration of power event. Right?Kinda implies how far we are gonna get elsewhere with them.
His boosting of Nick Fuentes and other Neonazis on his platform, holocaust denial, and stupid “dark maga” hat he wore when endorsing Trump had zero plausible deniability, so that was enough for me. I guess I jumped the gun.
The stuff he actually said during the speech, didn’t kinda imply where we’re going. It was pretty blatant.
Safe cities = more militarisation of the police, police brutality, wider mass surveillance
Secure borders = enforcing imaginary lines to do more police brutality and setting up concentration camps
Sensible spending = de-funding social programs that actually address the root cause of "unsafe’ cities
Going to Mars = It’s not going to be you nor I setting foot on the red planet. We’re going to be stuck here paying a monthly subscription for breathable air.
Instead of being concerned about that, perhaps let’s discuss how the X logo resembles a swastika or how his side-combed haircut is very nazi-youth-group-esque.
It’s not that relevant if, prior to the man performing multiple nazi salutes, we already knew he was a full blown fascist.
You’d think that this would be something that clearly, unambiguously and without any trace of plausible deniability proves that. But no, they STILL try to wiggle out of it. That’s why it’s relevant.
And he even has the audacity to say afterwards that the “everyone is Nazi” accusation is getting old. This whole situation is bizarre.
hE wUz tRoLliN lawlz
You once again misstate the Center, which is of course to be expected on Tankie Central, couple that with the Far Left having just spent last spring and summer waiving the flags of hezbollah and hamas marching and camping in university commons across the nation chanting “from the river to the sea”, your sad faced leftists is particularly laughable
You think lemmy.world is tankie central?
What are you trying to say? Incomprehensible
This is an excellent example of how the Democrats lost the last election.
You think caring about Palestinian’s is a communist thing?
I’m not a communist but I say a few things loud and clear. Free Palestine. Fuck the IDF…
“Caring about Palestine” is not the same as waving the flags of Hezbollah, and Hamas, and changing “from the river to the sea”
I support Palestine and Palestinians. Israel is committing genocide.
I am also Jewish and will never wave a Hezbollah or Hamas flag, nor will you ever hear me chant that antisemitic phrase promoting the extermination of Jews.
You’re acting just as bad as the Israelis when it comes to perceiving anything but complete support for everything they do as an attack
I agree with the start of this post, and then it got a were bit unhinged.
I’m not acting anything, I was responding to your weird post that seemed to insinuate this place was communist central and everyone here was Hamas sympathisers.
I don’t know enough history to understand why Hezbollah are seen as worse than the IDF. Even when I researched, I couldn’t find anywhere near the civilian body count. I thought that was the hallmark of terrorism.
It’s really, really easy to find a ton of information on Hezbollah and their history of criminal atrocities. Like, 20 minutes of googling easy.
Also it wasn’t my comment you were replying to.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
Which sea and which river was that again? Is it perhaps some geography that categorically precludes the existence of Israel? Since, you know, from the river to the sea must be free, and I am pretty sure they don’t mean “free, under Israeli governance”
My understanding was that the phrase “from the river to the sea” is associated with a “one-state-solution” to the conflict. The second link in the comment you’re replying to goes into this more in depth, but it’s not a new discussion: here’s a piece from Edward Saïd in 1999.
A one state solution doesn’t call for the genocide of Israelis. The equal and active participation of the Israeli people would be necessary for such a one state solution to work; you can’t solve a genocide with more genocide.
It’s about Palestinian emancipation from Israeli Settlers Colonialism, from Apartheid. Zionism has been about the Settler Colonialism and Ethnic Cleansing of the native Palestinians since the start. Partition was used to preemptively justify the Nakba. The 1967 occupation was used to justify expanding into the West Bank and Gaza and begin more settlements. I and many others support a One-State Solution, because it’s a One-State Reality, one entrenched in Apartheid.
I am pretty sure they don’t mean “free, under Israeli governance”
They do, but I’m not sure you understand the scope of brutality and violence Palestinians are subjugated to under Israel supremacy and Apartheid, and have been for generations.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
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10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
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Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
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Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations practiced in the occupied territories after 1967
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades.
Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
(Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ).
The settlements have created hundreds of isolated bantustans within the West Bank, preventing any two-state solution that may have been possible before the Israeli occupation in 1967
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike.
Adi Callai has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video. It’s seriously worth a watch
Center here, it was a full blown nazi salute and every other european centrist I know also know it was a full blown nazi salute. We dont want to assosciate with the people saying it wasn’t a nazi salute, they are either insanely stupid or undercover nazis.
It was definitely questionable. People saying it’s 100% are being unreasonable. There’s a large interpretation here.
And calling people names and trying to bully people into accepting your view is disturbing.
He threw his hand out from his heart and said my heart goes out to you. It’s definitely questionable.
No doubt about the gesture. Why are literal neo nazis all over neo nazi media super happy about it? Why is the only video record of such heartfelt gestures from modern nazi rallies or black and white and in german/italian? only question is why a man from a nazi family backing a party who is changing the constitutuon in order to harass minorities would do such a thing. 3 times in a row.
If you think the gesture means heartfelt thanks go do it infront of a synagogue, infront of your boss and in a highly public place. Its an EXTREMELY common gesture americans use all the time, right?
Don’t point to a swastika and tell me it’s a windmill.
What was performed, is a textbook nazi salute. Start to finish.
No the hands grabbing the heart isn’t. Actual Nazis have said this.
And then throwing it out to the crowd is different.
WW2, might seem like a long time ago. But it really isn’t. We have video footage of Hitler himself. Performing this exact routine.
Would you like me to spoon-feed you a side by side comparison?
As a European center, does that put you between the radical far left (community based government, right to eat, right to housing, right to education, medical care for all, meeting and exceeding the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, etc.) and the radical far right (Monarchy, Totalitarian Oligarchy, the thing that Trump and Musk want, and will have to fight for)?
Or is it centrist as in between Neoliberal and MAGA?
The reason I ask is because here in the states Centrist means the latter, e.g. people who still hate the homeless and expect immigrants to go through (nonexistent for most) legal channels.
It puts us at free education including university, free healthcare, shorter work week and days, human rights, right to self govern, limits to make housing affordable, electricity affordable, not to pollute, you know all the shit that we have and want to keep. Leaning left or right mostly means how you want the money for all that to come from and questions like how to deal with immigration. I personally believe the way to utopia is through making free specialized or higher education possible for even those who have nothing as educated population doesn’t elect stupid ass parties, is wealthy and pays more taxes to support the society.
extreme left wants to use violence in order to get rid of everyone they deem unfit for their ideal society extreme right wants to use violence in order to get rid of everyone they deem unfit for their ideal society
Leaning left or right mostly means how you want the money for all that to come from
You just have no study of history or politics, that’s the difference. You believe that “high education” will magically solve wealth inequality, oligarchy/monopoly, and the drive for ever-increasing and maximized profit that is intrinsically opposed to a welfare state and to ecological conservation.
Restrictions implanted to not let companies exploit people do that. Takes not stupid people to make smart decisions. Works in my country. Works for welfare states. I’m fine in my country. We were part of the soviet union, we know exactly how oppression, totaliatarian control of the ruling class, genocide, mass murder, oligarchy run government, inequality and systematic ecological catastrophies look like. This is why we want to do better.
Restrictions implanted to not let companies exploit people do that
And how are you exactly going to do that as long as companies control the government, as they do in capitalism? How’s regulation working so far, with every country violating the IPCC recommendations?
Works in my country. Works for welfare states
Bullshit. All “welfare states” rely on unequal exchange through the exploitation of the global south. Without poor people on the other side of the world extracting resources for misery wages and toiling their lives away at sweatshops, your country would have no welfare.
We were part of the soviet union, we know exactly how oppression, totaliatarian control of the ruling class, genocide, mass murder, oligarchy run government, inequality and systematic ecological catastrophies look like.
How old were you exactly in 1991?
extreme left wants to use violence in order to get rid of everyone they deem unfit for their ideal society
lmao there’s a difference between using violence to remove the capitalist class from power and using violence to genocide minorities.
If it’s any consolation, in Australia that’d make you far-left.
I know you are being downvoted but I feel similar for the most part, I do find that not all countries versions of the left-centre-right divide marry up to each other and even the terminologies can get confusing. e.g in UK we have Liberal Democrats who are the only Centre party but the word Liberal in there can cause confusion for others. In Scotland we have free education including all the way through to degrees at universities etc thought that was started by the left wing government, the centre party wants to keep it as does the right wing.
I cant be upset about downvoting. Americans have to deal with it, not my problem. And they will get third and fourth term if they keep downvoting people who don’t self identify as extreme left or view violence as a solution. Those “eat the rich” folk have been fed propaganda material on the silver platter and all they do is alienate popular support they need for a functional society even further. Fuck them then.
Center-right, previously strong (not far) right. That was clearly two Nazi salutes done by a drugged out oligarch. There’s no way around it.
That is an accurate representation of what is happening. Kudos to whoever made this.
Right it’s insane the number of bot amounts that are aggressively trying to push this narrative. And they’re attacking anyone who doesn’t agree with them disturbing times
“My heart goes out to you” - Troglodyte response.
The centre is the actual ones looking like the guy on the left. Everyone else is celebrating, either “I fucking told you so”, “oh cool, the class war/revolution is going to start for real now” or “yay our kinda guy”.
Tf are you on about?
Either it’s that or I’m far leftist I guess, because the guy on the left is what I’ve been feeling like since I saw that salute.
It’s amazing how US divisive culture is just swapping over to other countries. Now the radicals are trying to push that being in the middle is an issue. Imagine that: being able to not demonize everybody and everything that doesn’t belong to your tribe is now worth ridicule in the US.
And they’re SO aggressive, name calling, degrading language. It’s pretty disturbing how aggressively they’re pushing this. If you don’t agree with them that this might not be a questionable salute you’re garage and probably a nazi.
What county are you posting from buddy?
Complete bullshit. This whole, “no he was thanking and giving his heart to the crowd” excuse is such bullshit. There are so many ways to make that gesture.
The amount of hoops people will jump through to cover it up is mind-blowing. When it looks like a salute, when a country says it’s a salute, and when Nazis recognize it as a salute, yes, it’s a fucking salute.
What exactly is the “context” for doing a full-on nazi salute? Other than to show everyone that you’re a nazi?
He said the magic words “my heart to you” clearly clarifies that his salute was meant to be that, duh /s
You mean well before what he actually said during the sieg heils
“It is thanks to you, that the future of civilization is assured.”
=
Elon Musk inner thoughts: I should Nazi salute. Do it. Do it you pussy. Think of the news it’ll generate. Think of all the votes, oh god I’ll make all the democrats cry that I’m a nazi when I’m not even a nazi! Fuck, lets do it!
nazi salute
Oh god that was awkward as fuck. Okay, let’s do it twice, then make sure they know I’m serious and it wasn’t just some weird fucked up tic I do.
SIEG HEILS even harder
MMHPPHPHPHHHHHHHH SUCK IT AOC.
Who did he send his heart out to? Oh no. Oh nononono
Someone should take his heart out. (in minecraft)
Heat of the moment, not everyone you don’t like is a Nazi
At least those are the excuses I’ve seen
I don’t like Elon. I think he’s not very smart, and I want him far from the government. I suspect he’s cozying up to Trump to get funding for SpaceX, and electric vehicle subsidies, and he’ll probably continue his underhanded battle against any kind of good public transit.
If you watch it as a video, he says “my heart goes out to you”, puts his hand on his heart, then does a throwing motion, that ends with his hand up, and out to the side. Then he turns to a different part of the crowd, and does the same motion again.
It’s not an accident, it’s an awkward gesture, because he’s an awkward person. A Nazi salute has the arm held up, and directly forward from the shoulder for some time. His arm is out to the side, and only there for a moment. Unfortunately, there are probably neonazis too stupid to know the differences.
Treating everything as Nazi symbolism means that more and more people won’t hear alarm bells when you say there’s Nazi imagery, so the media pushing hoaxes like this is bad for public discourse as a whole.
Heres context. At the time I didnt put together that he really meant the national kind.
It’s right out of Trump’s playbook. You do something outrageous and evil, with just a smidgen of deniability… it gets them attention. That’s what they crave, to lead the news cycle, to be hated by the left but maintain enough deniability that the center and right will still be on your side. This is Trump 101.
That is the fascist playbook. Testing the water to see what you can get away with now while normalising new levels of evil.
Because it’s not a nazi salute. You guys are acting like Nazis
It’s disturbing how aggressive you all are
There are gifs of side by side comparison with literally Hitler doing the exact same movement. There side by side gifs with neo-nazis doing the exact same movement. You have Germans saying “Yeah, that was totally a nazi salute”. You have historians saying it was a nazi salute.
But okay, let’s say it wasn’t a Nazi salute. There’s mainstream sentiment clearly indicating that people thought it was a Nazi salute and he definitely is aware of that sentiment. Why hasn’t he said “it wasn’t a nazi salute. I never intended to make it seem like it was.”? Any sane person would instantly try to distance themselves from being perceived as a Nazi because nobody, besides a dumbass nazi, would want to be associated with nazis.
It’s literally, a nazi salute. And I don’t use the word literally often.
The only thing disturbing aside from the salute is people like you defending it
A women hitting a neo nazi, is a nazi salute?
Hey there, everyone. I’m the center. Go check my history, you’ll be disgusted if you’re far left.
Yeah… this was not okay. We know what this is in the “center”. Fuck Elon Musk.
Yeah, I see John Cleese’s Advantages of Extremism skit is still as relevant as ever…
Relevant because it showcases liberals’ political illiteracy?
Not throwing any shade at Cleese though, he’s one of the few conservatives who was genuinely talented at comedy.
I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
Code beige
If I don’t survive, tell my wife hello.
I hate that this is a meme.
A lot of people defending Elon but I still haven’t seen Elon defend Elon. Concerning.
He reportedly did a tweet mocking people for calling him Hitler (which I saw in elsewhere since I’m not a user of his site). Incredibly, of all people, the ADL also chirped out the same “it was an accident” line as the media.
ADL? What’s that? Aryan Defense League?
Apartheid Defense League
The Anti-Defamation League is an influential NGO that’s supposed to fight antisemitism. Probably because Trump has repeatedly shown a fondness for Netanyahu, they’re apparently throwing Jewish people under the bus to sweep this under the rug.
The association of German National Jews supported Hitler. Turns out it was a mistake.
More like AIPAC Defense League
I think he made some tweets about it
What did he say? I only saw him reply to a tweet saying that accusing everyone of being Nazi is getting tired, but I didn’t see that he actually commented on the salute.
Yeah i don’t think be ever explained what that gesture was supposed to be, he only retweeted posts and memes that were in his defense
Edit: i just watched the full clip for the first time, i didn’t know he says “my heart goes out to you” after so i guess that’s his alibi
