ITT: people skipping over the 39 days bit. Time and place. Let’s save the Republic then we work on everything else.
tbf people have been saying this as far back as Clinton’s term.
There was even discussion of Biden only running for one term before he was elected, yet lots of people here refused to believe anyone who wanted a new candidate was actually a republican in disguise.
Still, no point voting for a non existent grassroots third party. Green party more or less exists for people who don’t want to vote, not a valid anti corporate solution, despite having a decent group of members.
BUT THIS TIME ITS REAL PROMISE!
Assuming bad faith over everyone who disagrees with you is a first step to fanaticism and vulnerability to external opinion.
Weaponizing tribe mentality to reach your goals is very bad long-term, and makes yourself susceptible to the same trap.
Lemmy, unfortunately, is very prone to that. Remember that time people called here for Biden to step down and were downvoted into oblivion? Where were they when he actually stepped down and everyone started cheering for Harris all of a sudden?
There are valid reasons to NOT vote for the Democratic party in these elections, even if you clearly don’t side with the Republicans.
The one valid reason not to vote Dem/Repub this cycle has been to not support genocide, which ultimately supports genocide except the voter can dissociate their vote from the outcome. Other than that, I haven’t seen any other valid arguments to vote 3rd party, particularly when looking at what those candidates would do if they won. Holding the presidency with all of Congress against you means you can’t get anything done, so it’s a waste of 4 years.
The argument of bad faith you’ve made sounds awfully like the beginning of a slippery slope argument.
One important and vocalized point is to hold Democrats accountable for their actions. This isn’t limited to genocide.
Because as things stand, Dems can get away with anything as long as they are marginally less terrible than Republicans. And as the goalposts move every time, situation gets worse and worse.
Voting third party might force Democrats to actually implement changes they propose in order to attract more third party voters to ultimately win the election.
In general I agree that voting can be used to hold candidates accountable for their policies. In this case, I still don’t see how holding the less terrible of the two accountable isn’t tantamount to helping the worse. No one knows why you voted 3rd party, just that you did. If the outcome is that Repubs win, the simplest answer is that most people prefer hard right policies, which is opposite the goals of most 3rd parties (except perhaps libertarianism).
Less terrible of the two is something I think most people would follow unless indoctrinated to think the more viable option is worse. Having constant conversations about holding democrats accountable with nary a peep about how Repubs are worse leans into this viewpoint. At best it’s bad optics. At worst it’s intentional to secure a far right win.
You can always be vocal about why you didn’t vote Democrat. Voting does not mean you are restricted from saying who you voted for, protesting their decisions, and organizing.
“Less terrible of the two” is a path to gradually degrade the rights and quality of life for everyone.
If Dems are not forced to change, we won’t see much improvement. For as long as they’re not pressured by anything but literal fascism, they’re better off serving their sponsors than their own electorate.
A fairly small percentage of Democratic voters vocally saying “fuck you” is enough to force Dems to either change and finally deliver on their promises or lose. Let’s hope they’ll be able to do the former.
TIL people still think this ignorant crap actually makes sense.
Please elaborate
So what I meant was that I had learned “today” (yesterday) that people still say dumb shit that makes no sense when pressed against reality, regardless of the fact that there been enough proof for them to know it’s incorrect.
The underlying point that was made was that while knowing everything you said was wrong, and saying it anyway, illustrates the bad-faith in your message.
Do you seriously think that some grassroots movement of Stein/West supporters somehow have things right and correct while everyone else is just too stupid to understand? Come on man. Have you not noticed that NEITHER of them give two shits about anything three years out of every four?
In fact, NO Green Party candidate does a fucking thing between elections to bring this change they program you to demand.
But everyone else is wrong, right?
Haha this, libs are so cruel and violent that they can’t possible imagine someone taking a principled stance on genocide.
These were the same libs decrying the “violence” of broken windows and looting during the George Floyd riots.
Assuming bad faith over anyone who disagrees with you
libs are so cruel and violent
This is what leftist lemmy actually is. Voices of reason being underscored by the very same bad faith assumptions from a “morally superior” position.
All so you can feel better about the fact that people with your moral standing have zero power here while the rest of us actually try to keep this country from going tits up.
Do you honestly think the people you label as libs want genocide?
Noooo you aren’t allowed to say that!
One of the mouth breathing imbeciles who will determine our future based on a confluence of distraction, idiocy, and geography might read it and think they too have a choice!
Or worse yet enough people might get the idea that their vote is more than just something to throw away. If even 1% of the country grows that way each cycle corporate profits might be threatened at some point!
Believe the people who sobbed their hideous wretched guts out that we had to support Biden! They’re never wrong On PuRpOsE!
You sound like you get bullied a lot and you don’t really understand why everyone is ok with it
You sound like someone with no communication skills or earnest opinions.
Bye Felicia.
It’s actually spelled Felisha. You should always watch the credits of great works of art.
In American English, the phrase “Bye, Felicia” or “Bye, Felisha” is an informal phrase intended as a dismissive send-off, wherein a person or idea is rendered so unimportant his or her name is reduced to “Felicia.”
Go Team Harris!
Third parties are obviously the way any intelligent person may choose to vote. This video explains why they are currently not viable in America. Ranked choice voting has to come before third parties. It’s not a moral thing, it’s voting math.
Gonna vote third party as soon as the Democrats and Republicans implement ranked choice voting
seriously though is there any way to get to ranked choice voting other than a violent revolution?
Strikes, boycotts, or anything that hurts their donors’ wallets. There actually is some political will for it too, just not enough for individual politicians to push through. They need to be able to point to external unrest.
Yes. We’re already starting to use it in some places!
A couple states have started using it. Just needs enough willpower.
This requires organizing. Even the revolution requires organizing, so I think you’d get more traction with rank choice voting vs a revolution.
It some places it is taking place. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
Where are all the Russian plants, oops I mean true progressives, at to tell us we’re just not leftist or progressive enough and Jill is totally definitely only ever trying to improve things for the country, ignoring her meeting with Putin and aides, and also Kamala is literally no different than Trump! Universalmonk, verdantbanana….i need you to straighten OP out! /s
Jill is too mainstream, I’ve voting for Rachele Fruit of the Socialist Workers Party!
Oh you’ve changed the candidate you’re backing, huh? You are a very serious voter with real principles and values, Mr. Monk.
Vermin Supreme for Every Elected Position 2024. The one true choice.
A mandatory tooth brushing law is the most un-American bullshit I can think of.
Not the hero we deserved, but the hero we needed. Nothing less than a knight, shining…
I was gonna try and write a comment 1upping you because I didn’t think Rachele Fruit was a real person, but then I decided to look her up just to double-check. Nope! She’s actually a real person.
She’s the next President of the United States
Hail to the Fruit
Discouraging 3rd party voting hurts democrats more than anyone. Studies show that 3rd party presidential candidates largely bring out people that would not have voted otherwise and largely benefit the democratic party down-ballot.
Don’t tell your apolitical friend about how they shouldn’t vote for Cornel. Don’t tell your friend about how voting for a 3rd party is pointless. Don’t tell your friend to vote for your person. Tell them to vote.
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Its more accurate to say the worth of a vote can approach but never be zero. Maybe people struggle with the fact that in a presidential race, their vote is one amongst tens or hundreds of millions.
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On the other hand, I believe we all have a duty to make fun of Russian propagandists
I like it. Tell them to vote, then encourage them to vote for Harris (especially if you’re in a swing state).
You can try that, but they should be separate conversations. Have one conversation about how voting generally is good. Then have another conversation about candidates. Trying to roll it all in one will still discourage those types of voters for the partisan appearance.
I like this approach, just encourage people to vote. I don’t care who or what you vote for, but take 30 minutes and read up on a few issues and then go participate every single time in all the elections.
Yeah, I’m gonna continue with my lesser evil voting like I do every election. The Democrats pinky promise that they will put forth good policy in the next election cycle.
Until they win and throw it out on day one like they have checks notes every other time.
“It’s gonna different be this time, bro. I promise, bro. We just need to win the House and the Senate. And then Kamala Harris can only make any significant changes in her second term otherwise people won’t vote for her 2028. You just have to be patient, bro.”
“She just sided with corporations AGAIN.”
“4D chess bro”
If they spent that energy campaigning for election reform instead of harassing Lemmy users I’d find it more convincing.
And vote in every local election. So change can happen. I doubt they even do that.
Where’s that universalmonk blyat?
I broke the script the other day when they said they were ok with a trump second term. That they weren’t afraid of trump. I highlighted the conservative judicial appointments impact the working class and minority groups and they simply couldn’t address it.
I don’t have to explain anything to you.
🗣️🧠
You can’t call any of them by name, unlike Beetlejuice. You have to post something positive, even mildly so, about the Harris/Walz campaign. Then all the little rats come scurrying over to tell you how you’re a genocide stan and any real American should be voting for Cornoliverill Stein de la Fruit, and it’s definitely not because daddy Putin said so.
Bidding on Jill Stein’s bath water
Sorry, guys. I’m voting for the only candidate that can end global warming.
Black hole sun, won’t you come
And wash away the rain
Giant Meteor / Butt Stuff ‘24!
This time we’ll get it in the end!
BOHICA.
Do you have a newsletter I can sign up for?
This is the 3rd party I’ve been waiting for.
Please don’t play with my emotions
Why are the centrists so antagonist this week ?
Bad faith actors are out here trying to channel energy into a psuedo-democracy instead of participating in bottom up politics.
If you care about stopping fascism, join a socialist org. Donald Trump isn’t some anomaly, he is a result of systemic economic forces that bring imperialist violence back to our shores as global resistance makes our imperial influence overseas wane. Democrats (the people who control the democratic party, not like, voters) do not want to bring an end to the system that creates this phenomenon, they directly profit from it.
You can’t base your politics on opposing fascism by voting for a party that supports the conditions that are creating fascism. I dont care who you vote for, go hog wild, but join a socialist org if you care about stopping fascism in the long term.
A trolley barrels towards a bunch of construction workers stuck on the tracks.
- If you pull the first lever it will divert and only kill one person.
- If you don’t pull the first lever it will kill 100 people, including that one person from before - he’s standing before the track change.
- But, and now this is key, there is a second lever to the right of the first that says “Display lever only, does nothing.” It does nothing.   What do you do?
Get on the tracks with them. We die together.
You pull the first lever. I dunno why nobody is answering.
The trolley problem does not have a correct answer, and a very popular way of thinking is that “if I do not engage the lever, whatever happens next is not my responsibility. If I divert, I will have killed that one person.”
I’m not American, not here to tell anyone who to vote for
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I couldn’t possibly pull either lever, that would put blood on my hands! Instead I spend all day on Lemmy urging everyone to pull the display lever. This is different from me touching any levers directly, because reasons.
Why should I accept the assumption that a trump presidency means 100 times more people killed, whether involving American weapons or not?
You don’t have to. It’s a tongue-in-cheek scenario. I’m not actually comparing real numbers of people who would die. The killing of construction workers in this thought experiment just embodies any negative outcomes, not necessarily just the amount of people who will die, and you can internalize whatever ratio you want to it. Or don’t, idc.
I said throw shit onto the track to try and stop the trolley once.
The philosophy majors did not like me pointing out it was ridiculous to imagine the problem existing in a void with an absolute limit on possible courses of action.
They liked it even less when I reminded them that the problem was invented to make fun of them by a philosopher who was arguing that both courses of action were ridiculous conclusions to reach given the broader context of a trolley crash not existing in a vacuum.
Thought experiments in the void is how we got the declaration that feathers and lead weights were affected by different rates of gravity.
Cool, so if you dont vote for Harris, you’re wasting your vote.
I also think philosophy is mostly dumb. But there is a vacuum here, shitty democracy or fascism. You can throw shit on the tracks, that just means one less vote against fascism
I was talking about the philosophy problem itself not the FPTP vote. As you could probably guess from the context of me dunking on the philosophy majors so much.
I’m being completely serious here: if you have trouble understanding the concept of a hypothetical situation, you might be on the spectrum.
Dude wants to de-rail the trolley. Hes so worried about the people on the tracks he forgot about the people on the trolley, and he’s the one saying the trolley problem can’t exist in a vacuum. Well motherfucker, why have an empty autonomous trolley?
The philosophy majors did not like me pointing out it was ridiculous to imagine the problem existing in a void with an absolute limit on possible courses of action.
Holy shit you did it! You beat philosophy! ^^^/s
If reminding a bunch of people that trolleys are typically built in places with a lot of stuff that can be thrown on the track is all it takes to “beat” philosophy, then maybe the philosophers didn’t have anything to say worth listening to in the first place.
Especially when they’re trying to ask questions to determine a moral course of action, why does anyone have to die when some property damage would do the trick just as well?
That’s why the question was devised in the first place, to illustrate how ridiculous the two schools of thought represented by either decision were when taken to their logical conclusion.
The original correct answer was to do something more productive than just standing around with your thumb up your ass debating utilitarianism vs not taking a direct action to kill someone.
The point of a thought experiment isn’t to creatively invent your way out of answering. It’s to give you a lens to examine your beliefs. The trolley problem can be a train problem or a giant falling safe problem or a two-bombs-with-a-button-to-switch-detonators problem. The specifics aren’t there for you to fantasise they’re there to give context to one of the most entry-level problems in ethics.
You didn’t impress your philosophy buddies by refusing to engage with a hypothetical. You made them groan and then they laughed about you when you left the room.
If such a faulty experiment is the basis of our ethics it’s little wonder why the world has become such a cynical and nihilistic place.
Suggesting an alternative isn’t refusing to engage with the hypothetical, it’s engaging in the hypothetical in a way that someone who thinks they’re so smart for studying philosophy should really fucking know how to entertain.
And again, the whole question was devised to point out that both answers are horrifying, morally bankrupt, and a logical conclusion of a faulty school of ethics, so insisting the question is “basic ethical philosophy” is just damning the entire foundation even more.
You’re not making a case that I should feel embarrassed about a snafu in philosophical thinking, you’re making a case that the real trolley problem is whether I should have gone back and shot the philosophy majors you think were snickering behind my back before they could do any actual damage by indoctrinating someone with actual deciding power into their effective death cult school of ethics where never thinking twice about “someone dies anyways” outcomes is perfectly reasonable.
Your “foundational ethics question” is equally as ridiculous as asking if I’d cheat on my SO if it would cure their cancer and also they wouldn’t forgive me for it. That’s not how anything ever works and insisting there’s some deep meaning in it is a farce, and the author of the question itself intended for it to be a farce, and trying to defend it as anything but a farce just makes you a farce
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says philosophers should exercise more intellect
gets called anti-intellectual
There’s weapon’s grade something in this discussion but if it’s anti-intellectualism I ain’t the one bringing it son.
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The quote was a hyperbolic answer to someone sarcastically suggesting I was trying to act smarter than everyone else because the question is an infamous example of self styled philosophers simultaneously over and under thinking questions.
Overly obsessing the meaning they’ve read into what was originally posed as satire, and yet underthinking the details and implications of the scenarios they’re describing.
We are expected to take the question as if we were there in person and yet they are not expected to adhere to a setting in which we could be there in person.
It’s very “rules for thee…” and the fact that self proclaimed philosophers go so out of the way to insist on this supposed deep and foundational question really shoots the credibility of the profession to pieces if such a faulty question is actually as important to the lot as the people trying to insist I’m some uneducated ape for pointing out that “someone will die anyways” scenarios are inherently suspect.
I said throw shit onto the track to try and stop the trolley once.
So you think the right thing to do is something that everyone knows wouldn’t make the slightest improvement to the situation?
https://www.ncesc.com/geographic-pedia/what-can-stop-a-train/
Trolleys aren’t trains
Fair enough… It would have been better stated as a train problem than a trolley problem. But I personally wouldn’t ding the philosophy majors too hard for that.
Anything not bolted down, benches, trash cans, hell if it’s small enough you could try throwing stuff at it directly to tip it off the track
Is doing my Jason Russell impression an option?
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Nothing gets better permanently under Democrats. Nothing gets better under Republicans. You sir or ma’am, are a moron, and a traitor to the Republic. You’ve chosen the side of traitors. You’re either a shill, or a willing idiot. Your kind have a new world to face. One without your comfortable lies instead of inconvenient truths. Now your kind along with everyone else your kind has doomed, has to face harsh realities. Enjoy the apocalypse. Should be a show.
Did you know that one hundred percent of democrats die?
Chuck Schumer will live forever.
Him and Mitch the turtle, bickering at each other during the heat death of the universe.
TANKIE DETECTED
Oh now you’re saying there’s going to be an apocalypse? Lol.
This guy cracks me up
I would rather someome vote for a party other than Dem or Rep, than not vote at all.
TANKIE DETECTED
… Because I want people to vote? I did not expect that to be a hot take.
May have been misinterpreted as a flat “I would rather someone vote for a party other than Dem or Rep” without “than not vote at all” to contextualize it.
“Misinterpreted” is a funny way to spell “illiterate”.
Voting for a third party in our two party system is throwing your vote away. Based on polling, a vote for a third party is a vote for Trump.
Take whatever you have against Harris and balance it against what a second Trump administration will bring.
TLDR it’s Fascism. Voting for any third party is signing off on Fascism.
If you’re an accelerationist, your side is not going to win. What you want is terrible and you’re a terrible person.
Tankie is the nicest way I could describe you.
It’s actually far worse.
You’re a Fascist sympathizer.
Tankie
Fascist sympathizer
I wonder what amounts of crowd mentality and brain stew is required to make someone equate two radical opposites.
What’s your opinion on Putin and Ukraine?
…I wonder what’s the chances you and your ilk are a maga psyop to counteract the “weird” meme by painting dem voters as maniacs.
If you’re voting 3rd party you’re not a Dem voter. You’re a Tankie trying to suppress votes and spread Fascism.
“Anyone who doesn’t think exactly like me is a fascist.”
Do you not see how this is abrasive? Do you think you are swaying anyone to your side with this kind of discourse?
As I said, TANKIE DETECTED
So lets pretend for the moment that a green party candidate or another random 3rd party won.
Do you think that they’ll have a mandate?
What about their legislative agenda?
They’re a lame duck.
Without Congress to pass laws they are useless and they have no representation in Congress so that’s dead on arrival.
If you legitimately want a 3rd party choice, then you have to advocate for ranked choice voting. Run for your local school board, local legislature. Coalitions are built from the bottom up, not the top down.
Jill Stein can’t even bring herself to call Putin a war criminal. Makes me wonder who’s financing her campaign. I don’t care what her people said about it later, she is obviously compromised.
Cornell West? He probably needs to make alimony payments and thought hey I can use this to sell a book.
Look, Biden is far from perfect, and least Harris presents an option from a different path. Trump isn’t going to stop Israel. Did you see what Miriam Adelson made Trump promise to do for her support? Let Israel annex the West Bank.
The only thing that might stop that is voting for Harris. And if you don’t, then you’re co-signing genocide. But that’s your choice. Tankies always go for the end justifies the means route. I guess that that means finishing up the Palestinian genocide. Better to kill em quick than to let them suffer longer right? Why not give Ukraine to Putin too right?
Encouraging people to vote third party in a two party system is enabling Fascism as those votes should go to Harris. Trump is a fascist. If you are arguing in good faith, I can explain why. But I feel like you’re not, hence, Tankie.
Wild.
TANKIE CONFIRMED
Get out of your echo chamber and speak to real human beings sometime soon, please.
Coming from a Russian bot that’s rich.
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It’s Idiocracy all the way down, unfortunately.
Average lemmy world user. Yall call people tankies the same way maga calls people socialists.
Oh look, a TANKIE
db0 is an anarchist instance, do you even know what actual tankies do to anarchists or are you just repeating a buzzword you know nothing about?
If you’re anarchist, why are you worried about how people vote?
Not sure where I said anything about how people vote. Must be tough to keep track of who you call tankie when your definition for tankie is anyone you don’t agree with though, so I get it, honest mistake I suppose.
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As a terminally online pseudoanarchist I prefer calling them “red fascists” tyvm
This one was funny though.
Mathematically the same thing in almost every case.
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look i have had the choice for with or without lube for half a century now. Thing is saying I don’t want to get sodomized at all just results in the default of without lube. I hate it with lube but I really, really hate it without.
Well thats an awful perspective. Have you tried looking at things in a less black and white type of way? You haven’t literally been fucked without lube have you?
nope but destroying useful goverment infrastructure and moving the tax burden to regressive taxes taht hit me harder and deregulating things easy do that metaphorically.
I like the name of your lemmy instance a lot.
From the dude who runs it faq page:
Why ‘moist’?! wtf is wrong with you?
It's comically unmarketable
