I know I know… “obligate carnivore”
Dear Christ. Every thread on this turns into a shit show. Locking.
Why wouldn’t you fight against animal cruelty?
ITT: People still unironically arguing that feeding a cat a diet that is biologically incapable of meeting a cats dietary needs is a good idea.
smh.
feeding a cat a diet that is biologically incapable of meeting a cat’s dietary needs
We’ve been putting supplemental taurine in cat kibble for decades.
There’s a world of difference between supplementing taurine and engineering a synthetic meat-free diet for a cat, requiring continuous blood and urine testing which, if done incorrectly or not monitored correctly, will 100% fuck up and probably kill your cat.
There’s a world of difference between supplementing taurine and engineering a synthetic meat-free diet for a cat
What do you think the supplemental taurine is intended to accomplish?
This just reminds me of people who lost their fucking minds when they found out a big chunk of McD’s hamburgers were soy protein. This is a cost-cutting measure as often as it is any ethical consideration. Your cat may be far closer to vegan than you even realize.
If I met a human who needs constant blood and urine tests, I’d assume said person is ill.
First of all, taurine is not the only thing you need to supplement. Second of all, you can’t just sprinkle some taurine over the kibble and call it a fucking day. This is serious shit. It needs to be calculated, tested, monitored by a God damn licensed veterinarian with literally continuous blood and urine testing. I had a diabetic cat for 21 years. Keeping her glucose stable throughout the day was deceptively challenging, and that’s one of the easiest long term care conditions for a cat.
You people are going to kill your cats. Fucking shame on you.
You people are going to kill your cats.
My cats lived to the ripe old age of 16, before they passed. Somehow, the vet never seemed to find all these maladies during their annual checkups.
But hey, maybe the random haters on the internet know more than a couple of trained professionals.
Just because there is supplemental taurine in cat kibble doesn’t mean that’s the only thing they need from their diet. Just get a different pet jfc
Taurine is usually singled or because it is the only nutrient required to meet the AACFO cat food guidelines that can not be readily sourced directly from plants.
How many live mice do you feed your cat?
You’d hate a snake lol.
Also my cat ruthlessly murders any creature unfortunate enough to stumble into her den simply for the pleasure of doing so. She doesn’t eat them, usually, but she isn’t exactly gentle regardless of whether or not she consumes her quarry. I think I may end up her next victim should I attempt to completely change her very nature against her will.
That’s practically all my cats eat! I only put cat food out in the winter or if they start to look slim. All summer they eat mice and sparrows and get fat. (Note that sparrows are a terrible invasive pest and removing them has a positive impact on the local ecosystem)
They are barn cats though and that’s their job so it’s a little different from the pet cat situation.
It’s a little known fact, but if you killed an animal yourself, its meat is vegan.
I don’t feed her any, but she willingly hunts for them.
I just find it wild that vegans can simultaneously come to the conclusion that all forms of animal farming is unethical but still accept that keeping pets is ethical. My wife grew up on a milk goat farm, every single goat had a name (and they had hundreds of goats), and the goats generally lived lives as good as the average pet. They’d run around and play, get attention from the people who lived and worked there, and every once in a while escape the pens just to prove that they can (they’d literally be standing around the yard waiting for their escapades to be discovered)
Even if the concern is “some farms are unethical and I’m not able to validate where my food comes from to make sure its a farm that isn’t abusive to its animals” there’s ways around that, like buying from your local coop (in the case of meats, buying from a local butcher) or buying direct from the farm. Usually when you’re that close to the farm its really easy to trace your products back to a specific farm, or even make a deal with the butcher/coop to only buy products from a specific farm
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What does adopting vs. buying from a breeder have to do with this person’s point?
The argument is that breeding more animals for the enjoyment of humans is bad, but the existing animals should be given as good of a life as we can. Since rescuing does not directly support the breeders, some vegans are OK with rescuing to give these animals a better life. Some vegans use similar logic to thrift wool sweaters for yarn, when they would not support buying new wool.
I would argue that your pet didn’t consent to being
imprisonedrescued and should be free. Kidnapping, false imprisonment, and forced sterilization are antithetical to vegan ideology.Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I’ve never though of the concept of “adopt don’t shop” being a “vegan friendly” option for pet ownership, I’ve just always thought it was an obvious choice, but I get the connection now.
Honestly at that point I think it’s lower effort to just go vegan. You’re already avoiding meat in every situation where you can’t investigate the supply chain, so no meat at restaurants, fast food, other friend’s houses, etc. I guess if you really crave the taste of meat or something or if you live on a farm already I could see a case for it. For me, the case of going to the grocery and making a meal at home was always the easiest case to have a vegan diet (and avoiding all the extra prep and cleanup from preparing meat were nice perks), the parts that were actual hurdles were the convenience of fast food and not wanting to assert myself in group meals.
Personally, I figure that the tiny sliver of meat that’s produced ethically can go to the tiny sliver of people with weird dietary restrictions, and to cats, I guess. We still need to see a massive reduction in meat consumption if we want to address the abuse that’s rampant in the vast majority of meat production.
There are many different vegans with many different viewpoints. I am not vegan, but I come pretty close - I do still consume a limited amount of dairy, but otherwise I don’t buy animal products. This is for the reasons you say - I don’t want to support factory farming. I also have a limited amount of time in my life for investigating everything I eat, however - I don’t honestly have the stamina to check every egg-containing product to see if it used battery eggs or not. I really don’t have the time to check if the “free range” eggs I’m buying are really free range or if they have sneaked around the regulations and it’s battery farming in disguise. It’s just easier not to buy any eggs.
I will accept eggs from people I know who keep chickens - no problem from me there. I think that humans having relationships with domestic animals is fine, generally we both benefit - the animals because they are protected from predators, they get fed, etc, and us because we gets eggs.
Some vegans would not agree with me. Some vegans don’t believe humans should keep any animals, including pets. I don’t believe there’s an issue with keeping some pets though. Domesticated animals wouldn’t even exist without us… Like it or not their “natural” habitat is living with humans. You couldn’t release all the dogs and expect that to be better for us or them.
She grew up on on a milk goat farm but never learned that goats don’t give milk from the goodness of their heart?
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I hadn’t seen this angle, awesome. There really is some pretty great hypocrisy here.
Unashamed omnivore, fisher, and hunter here. Working on our play farm so we can source all of our meat ethically in the future. Taking active steps to prevent the suffering of animals we consume. Don’t have an ethical or moral problem with killing animals to eat them. Prefer to do it myself so that I know that I have done my best to minimize the suffering of the critters I kill.
I’ve been told I’m a raper and abuser.
fite me
I think your mentality is great. I’ve heard people say, “Sure I’ll eat a burger, but what kind of psychopath wants to kill an animal themselves?”
I don’t know, what kind of a psychopath pays an industry to do it for them so they don’t have to feel bad about it? Look, I get it, I don’t hunt. But I respect the people who respectfully end the animal’s life themselves. Only they can really understand the cost. We just throw away some old chicken we forgot to cook while passing judgment on who we paid to get it for us and how they did it.
Exactly.
I enjoy hunting but I don’t glory in the killing. There is always a part of me that is sad when I kill. Even killing a rat or butchering a fish gives me a twinge. I don’t feel bad when I kill a mosquito, but do feel bad when I kill a black widow.
If I raise an animal to eat it, it will be properly cared for and have a good life and as painless a passing as I can make it.
When I take a picture of something I killed, I make sure blood or injuries are not visible. That is disrespectful to that life I took.
I recently killed a groundhog because it was being a varmint and digging up the foundation of my garage and chicken coop.
I tried to clean it so we could eat it, but must have hit the glands. The smell of the carcass was almost chemical it was so strong. They’re supposed to be good, but I’d never had to kill one. Harder to skin than a squirrel and they have super tough hide.
I had to toss it and it bothered me. Even though it was being a varmint: to me it is ethical to kill a varmint and not eat it. However, you should make use of that life if you can.
I killed a coon once as a kid and had to eat it after it was smoked. Not good. Never killed an animal again that I wasn’t going to eat except for varmints.
Varmints are animals out of balance. Rats and roaches are almost always varmints. Spiders rarely are. Overpopulated deer are often varmints. A groundhog out in the woods is just a critter, a groundhog digging out my foundation is a varmint. Cats are varmints when they are feral and killing wild birds, especially ground nesting birds.
Critters are animals in balance or domesticated.
Varmints are also almost always a species of least concern.
The environment would be in a much better place if people were more connected to their food.
You’re still killing animals mainly for fun, which is not ethical no matter how you turn it. Humans generally do not need to eat meat, as they’re omnivores. Keeping animals uses up large amounts of land and produces unnecessary greenhouse gases. With the amount of people and cattle being held on this planet, something has got to change in our behaviour in order to get things more balanced and keep a healthy planet for future generations. You try to keep old habits intact, which are not sustainable in the current world. Perhaps you don’t want to know about this take on things, but I’m presenting them anyway, hopefully it will have an influence on your future thinking.
You have your religion. Your religion says it’s not ethical to kill animals. I don’t believe in your religion.
Yup, omnivore. I’ve got the canines and binocular vision as well as the molars and gut to prove it. I like meat and vegetables. Your religion says it’s bad to eat meat. I don’t care about your strongly held beliefs: I think they’re a bunch of hooey.
I have no ethical or moral problem with killing as I do it. It’s not wrong to kill animals and eat them.
Hunting is pretty much built in to being human. It’s about the closest thing to religion I have left. Squirrel hunting is my favorite type of quarry. I get to sneak miles through the woods and explore.
Other than a few vegans that actually do a lot of camping and hiking, I’m far more connected to nature, my place in it, and the effects of climate change than most vegans ever will be. My family and I moved 700 miles this summer. Climate change and the future of my children and maybe grandchildren was a big factor that drove the move.
Again, you have strongly held religious beliefs that I think are bullshit. I also really dislike the sneering judgement I see so much of coming from your religion and people. It’s just like fundamentalist Christians in tone, stridency, superiority, and sanctimony. You’re not any better than me. You just believe some crap that I don’t. Again, just like the fundamentalist Christianity I grew up in. You know those televangelists that beg for money? That’s a mirror of the people you believe in. The people protesting outside abortion clinics? That’s your people with a different set of beliefs.
As far as climate change and greenhouse gases go, yup. Major problem. I’m actually reducing my impact, but, unless we tackle the industrial sources, an individual’s impact is a drop in the ocean at the scales that we’re talking about. Also, meat taken by hunting is about as low impact as it gets. Especially venison.
You can moral relativism your way out of the ethical problem if you want, but believing killing animals is wrong is not a religious position any more than believing murder, or rape, or theft is wrong. It’s cool that for you the opposite is a religion, but it seems like you have just found a convenient way to hand-wave away arguments against your position as “someone else’s beliefs” which can’t possibly have any bearing on your own.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything - you’re right that, among all of those who eat meat, you’re extremely low impact. Absolutely do whatever you want. But I’d consider the fact that in this thread you are claiming vegans are the religious ones while writing short essays on your own self described “religion” of hunting animals. The only one preaching here is you, man.
what kind of psychopath wants to kill an animal themselves?
The mental health issues among abattoir workers is way above the national average. It takes a toll.
I don’t know, what kind of a psychopath pays an industry to do it for them
Out of sight, out of mind. We have professional wet workers for a reason. If everyone had to do this shit themselves, much of it wouldn’t get done. Hell, I still stay up at night thinking about my elderly dog being put to sleep in front of me at the vet’s. If I’d had to push that syringe down myself, I’d have probably sawed my own hand off by now, purely out of shame.
Perhaps this is the perspective people need.
I bet your carbon footprint is still shit. You got plans to go solar to offset that?
Carbon footprint compared to what? Never tried to figure it. Kind of a dick way to ask, however.
Nebulous plans to do solar at some point.
Individual carbon footprint is miniscule next to industry. Also, our vehicles are old and I keep them running in proper order. Carbon footprint from a new vehicle/machine far outweighs keeping something old going as far as I know.
Worked at one place that dumped tons of plastic waste a week. Tried to get them to recycle and they wouldn’t do it, at a few pennies more a ton.
Industrial practices are the major driver of carbon. Fix that first, individual contributions are a drop in the bucket.
So, like, go fuck yourself or have nice day. Whichever.
Ohhhh shiiiit here we go again with the mods
Yah, I was pretty insulting. Removed for lack of civility. I enjoy venting my rage at holier-than-thou vegans. They hate the religious and fanatic comparison. I’ve dealt with a lot of religious bullshit in my life, so someone judging me by their religious standards tends to put me in a vengeful mood.
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Yeah, it does, buddy. I just don’t ascribe to your religion. Buddy.
When I kill something, I try and make it as quick as possible. Buddy. Like turning off a light switch. Buddy.
Critters should always be killed as painlessly and stress free as possible. They should be given as happy as practicable a life beforehand as well. Buddy.
Varmints have looser ethics and it’s okay to use more harsh methods to kill them such as poison and trapping. Buddy.
I wouldn’t expect you to understand any of this, buddy, becaus you live a fairytale world that is black and white. You view the world through a fanatical religious lense, buddy.
Okay, buddy, ol pal? I don’t ascribe to your religion and am not bound by it.
Much like a Southern Baptist, you can and your friends can go fuck yourselves in your religious echo chamber.
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No I think you do lol
I’ve been told I’m a raper and abuser.
Factory farming is absolutely industrial scale rape and abuse. The more traditional hunter-gatherer mode of existence is at least approaching “natural” levels of cruelty, but it also takes immense volumes of vacant real estate.
It’s cool that you’ve found a way to do a little traditional animal husbandry, rather than procuring meat from the holocaust mills run by some soulless corporate horror show. But its not what I’d call economical. At least, not for anyone who commutes downtown from an apartment block.
I think there’s a kind of ethical middle-ground for folks who can keep a deep freeze full of meat from a cow that gets butchered every couple of months. Then you’re at least mitigating the enormous waste in industrial agriculture and you can talk about animals living a relatively dignified life in a pasture rather than walled up in a cattle concentration camp. But that would mean no pink slime on demand, which violates man’s constitutional right to eat burger.
Fellow unashamed omnivore. The vegans have the moral high ground. I hope one day to become one. No need to shame or be ashamed of eating meat though. Changes to society take a while, shaming and blaming rarely improve the situation. It often makes things worse.
Much better than sourcing animal products from the supermarker. Still worse than being vegan
They might be responsible for many less deaths than a vegan, though.
Some food for thought: https://www.carnivoreisvegan.com/carnivore-diet-is-vegan/
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You don’t think people would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?
Definitely, because the idea that humans can survive and thrive eating their biologically adequate diet from ruminants that graze on grassland instead of fueling deforestation and ridiculous carbon footprints to be fed an unnatural diet that requires supplements and insane anthropogenic change in the environment is… too stupid to even argue about.
Why don’t you at the very least try? I mean, it should be much easier than just giving me a canned response, right?
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You’re unfortunately deviating the argument to industrial agriculture used to (force-)feed animals, which is not what I was talking about. I literally said “graze on grassland” but you decided to respond to something else. But the fault is mine for trying. I’m not sure what I was thinking, this never leads to anything meaningful, just defensive bullshit.
If you want to educate yourself, feel free to investigate how grasslands work, how most of them cannot be used for anything else other than grazing (not arable), and maybe think about how ruminants actually lived and roamed the land before we started industrial/intensive agriculture and feedlots.
Interesting comment there at the end. English is not my first language and I’m just trying to use the words that best capture the meaning I’m trying to convey. But you do you, you must feel pretty good about yourself.
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Lol
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I don’t have any skin in the game as I am allergic to both cats and vegans.
However, I think this is kind of interesting because it is going to be one of the first major pieces of Lemmy Lore that a large amount of the userbase is aware of.
In a weird way it means we are forming the bonds of a real community, and even though this is clearly an antagonistic topic it is going to be a lasting piece of history that for better or worse defines our culture.
this and the three days without shitting post
This one never got traction but it was a personal favorite: https://lemm.ee/comment/1808516
This was in response to someone considering getting a donkey.
I grew up on farm & we had two donkeys, Honeybun & Buttercup. Buttercup was older & eventually passed away, leaving Honeybun solo amongst the chickens, cows & horses.
Honeybun became ornery as all get out, just mean as hell. He’d started to bite anything close enough to be bitten. These weren’t little nips for attention; he’d draw blood given chance.
It got bad enough my grandfather carried a potato soaked in hot sauce to deter the donkey from biting. Grandpa would try to shove the potato into the donkey’s mouth when Honeybun went in to bite.
I know some donkeys get along well with horses. Honeybun did not. He bit those horses, went after chickens that wandered into his area, & likely would’ve done the same to cows if we’d let him.
I don’t have any specific advice for you, but I do believe donkeys get lonely & need some measure of companionship.
That was a good read. Definitely worthy of a save. Thanks for sharing fellow Lemming!
That’s a great post, sad it didn’t get known
Don’t be naughty or you’ll get a spicy potato!
Jokes on you! I love my spicy potatos!
And the beans?
and jeans and the weird wizard spells
And the orb pondering! Although, that wasn’t as big as this
I was hear for the beans and the jeans, but what’s this about weird wizard spells?
it is going to be one of the first major pieces of Lemmy Lore
Yeah that’s what I wanted to comment as well. I love that Lemmy now starts to get it’s own inside jokes and stuff. Dunking on overzealous vegans is just the cherry on top lmao
I will never forget omega fart in r/leagueoflegends, truly magical moment.
Nice, uhhh…username ya got there…I think…
It’s all about consent.
This whole controversy has been a real boon to my blocklist.
People are so quick to call it animal cruelty. Did any of you ask a vet if it was harmful to the animal? I didnt coz I dont even have a cat but it seems some vegans did and were reassured that it is alright. I think that shows they care about their pet and want to ensure its health while possibly aligning it with their lifestyles, probably better than feeding them the cheapest crap they can find.
Im not saying its okay to just feed your pet veggies, but just because it doesnt seem ‘natural’ doesnt automatically mean it is bad. This is ‘being gay is unnatural’ all over again.
People are so quick to call it animal cruelty. Did any of you ask a vet if it was harmful to the animal?
I have a friend who’s a vet in a trendy community and has seen multiple instances of cats with health issues (some permanent) directly stemming from attempting a vegan diet so his blanket advise is “don’t even try it”
Ironically the cheapest crap contains vegan stuff like wheat or rice. And cats ( at least my cat ) doesnt get so well with such things.
My cat is also allergic to grains, and I don’t mind paying more for grain free food.
Wouldnt stop my last cat from chomping on baguettes smh
Cats , when left alone (as in feral), mostly eat meat naturally. There is documented behavior in animals that homosexuality occurs naturally in the wild. There is no correlation to your comparison.
You just said it, cats mostly eat meat naturally. Just like most couples contain 1 male and 1 female naturally. Just because one behaviour is natural does not mean all behaviour that deviates from that is unnatural.
How can vegans even justify having pets? It’s not okay to milk a cow but it is to keep a cat? Indoor cats are deprived of basically all of their normal cat activities. They can’t range or roam, they can’t socialize with other cats, they are denied their natural predator instincts. As much as I love my kitties, like keeping a predator as a pet is basically kind of a dick move. I don’t care how good you treat your slaves, they’re still slaves.
If vegans can keep cats, they can eat cheese if the cow is well cared for or eggs if the farmer isn’t a dick to the chickens.
I agree with a lot of your points, however, outdoor cats are really bad for local wildlife, so from a purely utilitarian standpoint there’s less animal suffering by keeping them inside. And they’re not slaves, we don’t force them into labor under penalty of death. You could argue for prisoners i suppose.
We fostered some feral kittens and I was worrying about the same stuff, restricting freedom and such, and then there was a big storm w hail and I went down to check on the kittens and they were cozy as hell.
There’s more to it than just deprivation. One of ours is the baby of a feral momma but our lil girl has never seen a hard day in her life, no outside, no shelters. And seeing how much personality she has just melts my heart.
Not a good comparison. To produce milk regularly cows must give birth. These calves are often sold to be slaughtered as veal. Likewise situation for eggs. To produce hens farmers typically wait until the chicks hatch and throw the unwanted male chicks in a grinder.
Are these vegans forcing cats vegetarian diets in the room with us?
No, they’re in c/vegan
thank god, I don’t want to be anywhere near them
Closed-minded people are smart to keep to themselves.
They are tho
So y’all are feeding your cats a natural diet of small game?
Which animal in cat food would they ever eat in real life? Which cat is going to go find synthetic taurine to eat? What about the herd of cats that exclusively eats the diseased and rotted meat that isnt fit for humans?
If you are looking for someone to blame for vegan cat food then look at the quality of commercial cat food.
Which animal in cat food would they ever eat in real life?
Most of the cat foods I’ve looked at are primarily poultry which cats famously eat a ton of. Sure your average feral cat might not be taking down turkeys, but I honestly don’t find it at all hard to believe that it happens from time to time that a feral cat is eating some turkey, whether its roadkill or catching a young turklet itself
Cats in the wild won’t hunt anything too large, but they do like chunky animals that have as much meat as they can hunt. Rabbits are one of the biggest animals they hunt. In areas that have rabbits, its usually their main source of food. Any small game that size or smaller is a target though, including birds.
Duck, Turkey, cow, pig, deer, and bison all are not on the table for a cat to hunt. Cats will only scavenge if they are starving and otherwise will prefer to hunt for their food.
Your vague belief that it might be possible a cat stumbles upon a bison that just has died of natural causes does not make standard cat food natural or inline with the cats personal choices.
ITT: people with big hurt feewiingssss
its okay babies, you eating meat doesnt hurt anyone! Youve never done everything wrong! Its no worse than how most of us innately benefit from imperialism, we’re so far removed! Phew!
lol, we’re all always so quick to start crying about hoe annoying and rude veeeegans are. We could all consume less animal products. Its ultimately not an issue of personal responsibility, its systemic and engrained in our society.
getting all pissy because someones telling you the truth and it makes you uncomfortable is embarrassing, I’ve been there. I still eat meat more regularly than I’d like to. I dont need to justify it, I think its bad that I do, I’m doing my best over here.
Obligate carnivore! I dont give my cats water! Only meeeeeat, rahhhh I’m a big man-or-similar!
inB4, hurt feeling downvotes 😳
You ok dude? Kinda seems like you’re just screaming into the wind here.
It’s an average Lemmy.ml user
you should do a standup comedy routine because that’s hilarious
we’re all always so quick to start crying about hoe annoying and rude veeeegans are
And this post is a great example of just why people do that.
Did I miss something recent?
Some people say you can feed your cat vegan food like you can with dogs. Others say you cant.
Dogs also suffer without taurine or while on high carb diets, and dogs also cannot digest many fruits and vegetables: grapes cause kidney failure for example.
Nothing even slightly interesting or worth your time
Yeah c/Vegan had mods removed by a Lemmy.world admin because of controversial posts and opinions on a vegan diet for cats.
The removal was justified because that constituted animal cruelty, but it was reversed because scientific evidence was provided for the possibility of a vegan cat diet.
The vegan community I think said they were going to move to hexbear or some shit, lol.
Gotcha, ty
Yeah c/Vegan had mods removed by a Lemmy.world admin because of controversial posts and opinions on a vegan diet for cats.
Lol, after years of reddit and other big websites I forgot that admins can also get involved in dramas on their platforms. Reminds me of the internet 15+ years ago.
Hexbear manages to have the vegan discourse without banning everybody involved. I’ve heard this proves they’re fascist or something idfk.
Idk about traditional bans but my comments absolutely cannot be seen on their instance.
Also, refusing to moderate isn’t a flex.
The vegan community I think said they were going to move to hexbear or some shit
Ooh, yes, please, that would be great!
I think it’s a no win scenario for everyone but the CCP when people join Hexbear.
Any recommendations for leftist instances that aren’t just Chinese propaganda circle jerks?
infosec.pub is pretty tolerant…
The reason I came to World was because I saw too much of it on Today. Probably too difficult to filter them out on small scale operations like fediverse instances.
