What’s up with the casual Islamophobia recently?
Let’s not make this into reddit.
Not all criticism is Islamophobia.
Lmao this is criticism?
Yea it’s fuckin dumb to murder people over cartoon drawings.
It isn’t as dumb as it is bigoted to imply that muslims are murderous extremists.
Maybe, but that’s not what’s happening here.
Pop quiz: name a group of people who could be considered the ‘fanbase’ of the prophet named Muhammad.
The mistake you’re making here is the only person saying ALL Muslims are like this in this thread is you. That would be a bigoted statement but only you are saying that.
I assure you that I take pleasure in offending religious fruitcakes of all sorts.
Offensive: “christians believe that an imaginary flying bearded man in the sky speaks to them”
Bigoted: “Muslims are barbaric murderers that will kill you for showing a picture of their prophet”
You see the difference there?
Can you expand on this point? It’s not immediately clear what difference you are trying to highlight.
One is mocking the belief of a group by portraying it as ridiculous, the other is a bigoted portrayal of a group as homicidal on the basis of their belief.
The meme isn’t offensive toward ‘religious fruitcakes’ (the use of this word is kinda ironic but unrelated), it’s actively bigoted and Islamophobic. Socsa was presumably defending the meme by saying they enjoy offending all religions and not just islam, and I was pointing out that the post wasn’t simply offensive, it was bigoted.
I’m really, honestly trying to understand your perspective to the point of being weird and following you around in a comment section, but you’re still coming across to me as just saying “it’s never ok to criticize bad Islamic practices, it’s automatically bigotry.”
Let’s flip this on its head, maybe that will help. I assume you find the practice of brutally murdering people for the act of drawing a picture of a fictional character to be bad. How would you phrase a legitimate criticism of the practice without being bigoted?
Nah, bigoted would be saying “these people are inferior humans because they have stupid beliefs.” Or perhaps the act of infantilizing people for use as an ideological cudgel.
What I am saying is that they are very normal, run of the mill humans, and that having stupid beliefs is pretty typical of the human condition, writ large.
But christians are barbaric murderers who will kill you for not converting to Christianity. I am not sure which of us is more confused.
- Only one of those groups is subject to violent marginalization in the western world on the basis of their belief
- It is possible to be bigoted/prejudiced against multiple groups of people at the same time
I am quite sure it’s you who is confused.
Not really seeing a ton of violence against Muslims or Christians where I am tbh.
Phobia is an irrational fear. Being afraid of extremists who want to brutally murder you for drawing a cartoon is perfectly rational.
I am honestly shocked at the level of bigotry in this meme and this comment.
Comparing Islam to a fanbase that will ‘literally murder you for showing a picture’ is so obviously Islamophobic I don’t know how else to say it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
Read up dipshit, they specifically murdered people because they were offended by cartoons of their prophet. The murderers themselves cited their religion as motivation. Go on, explain to me how that wasn’t really what they’re upset about, I’ll wait.
It is the attribution of that extremism to being a part of ‘muhammad’s fanbase’ that is islamaphobic, not pointing to an example of the extremism itself.
A member of a group committing murder and citing that group’s beliefs isn’t a justification for casually implying that members of that group are murderous, even if it’s true is the most limited sense of the word.
Especially when that group is itself subject to extreme violence and genocide on the basis of their membership.
This is a poor semantic argument. It actually originates with right-wing rhetoric around “homophobia”.
The argument also hinges on there being only one meaning to a word. Kinda like how Trump is confused about how you can be Asian and Black.
Well, because Exodus 20:4-6, the Second Commandment, says:
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Belief It or Not just did an episode about it, too.
What’s interesting is both how lax Christians and Jews are about it, and how severe the wording actually is. By some interpretation, any visual depiction of nearly anything is an idol. Certainly a big statue of Jesus or a fresco of God should both qualify, and yet…
Punish third and fourth generations for the sins of their ancestors. Sure whatever.
Showing love to a thousand who love and keep commandments. Sure fine.
But what happens if my grandparents loved and kept commandments, but my parents didn’t? Does the punishment supersede the love? Or do me and my kids get fucked, but my grandkids are back in the good graces?
Just sayin.
The guy is jealous. You got the warning so watch out and behave.
There was a whole schism in the Byzantine Empire during the late 700s over whether religious iconography constituted graven images. This enveloped all the Abrahamic Religions and periodically reasserted itself for nearly a millennium, both in the academic sphere and in riots lead by hot-headed zealots of various sects.
Muslims simply ended up on the iconoclast side of the fence once the dust settled. If you study art history of the region, you get some truly incredibly geometric patterns emerging throughout the Muslim world, well into the 20th century, because of this stricture against iconography. There’s some speculations iconoclasm inspired efforts to produce these shapes and patterns, resulting in a heavy religious patronage of Islamic mathematics in much the same way the Renaissance Era in Europe contributed to the modernization of art and sculpture.
But the idea that Islam is somehow unique in the views on artistic reproduction of the human form is really more an artifact of history than of the religion itself. Absent certain twists of fate, we’d be angrily denouncing Muslims for making big bronze statues of their religious figures, which 600 years of Protestant iconoclasty informs us is only something a bunch of evil religious psychos would ever do.
Yeah this always struck my as bonkers. I personally like how South Park did it - with a full-body censor car. Even then the religious fanatics got salty about it.
You could literally be talking about anyone lmao
Unless logic were to exist
Really? Besides Muhammad, name 1 other well known person who showing a benign picture of him causes a real risk of getting killed by his fans?
name 1 other well known person who showing a benign picture of him causes a real risk of getting killed by his fans?
I’ve gotta say, I know quite a few Muslims and I can’t think of one who would so much as take a swing at me for running around in a big t-shirt with Muhammad’s face on it. Meanwhile, I can think of a few people who would take a swing at me if I was wearing, say, Osama Bin Laden.
Muhammad is SCP-096 confirmed.
How DARE you speak that name with even the slightest link to derision! I mean, erm, Jar Jar Binks.
Dream? Or attractive female VTuber personae that are actually played by men?
Huh?
Dream is [was?] a very popular Minecraft YouTuber/streamer, particularly among youths. He had been known for having not revealing his face, and when he finally did, some parasocial megafans did not see the deified person they had hoped for and instead just saw a regular looking dude. Many non-fans also took advantage of this disparity and mocked his looks. There are [were?] probably some self-described Dream fanatics who would assume any real life picture of him is an affront to their parasocial deity.
The same parasocial elements could be assumed for lonely viewers of VTubers, if they are shown that the “man behind the curtain,” so to speak, does not line up with the fictional character that they are presented.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen quite a number of vtuber face reveals, every singe one is shockingly sexy
At this point its a bit of a meme in the community that all vtubers are automatically hot
Who cares though. Why do we put so much more power in the hands of people who are only more physically attractive?
The fans of some streamer are not going to kill you.
Noooooo you forgot the (PBUH) when you mentioned Muhammad (PBUH), now I will have to kill you :( look what you made me do
Don’t worry, i was actually taking about Muhammad Ali
You shall be spared this time Mashallah
Well I don’t know if you heard but there’s this orange deranged guy.
Showing a benign picture of him won’t get you killed.
Does this narrow it down better? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
I need explainxkcd.com, but for memes.
KnowYourMeme.com is the closest i could think of. Maybe combined with urbandictionary.com
Je suis Charlie.
There have been several violent incidents in reaction to published depictions of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, which is strictly forbidden by some interpretations of the Sahih al-Bukhari, one of the major Sunni Islamic texts.
I’m assuming that’s what’s being alluded to here.
But like, that’s stupid they don’t expect us to eat halal why do they expect us not to depict their prophet?
Because Religion = Logic - Religion
Basically they managed to convince a lot of people that drawing Mohammad is hate speech, while obviously such depictions do exist (especially those that also conflate having an Arabic decent with Islamism), it’s just certain fundamentalists won the free marketplace of ideas through bullying and terrorism.
Despite all the legitimate critiques, it was a mistake to succumb, now Christian fundamentalists are trying the same, see the overreaction to the Olympics.
now Christian fundamentalists are trying the same, see the overreaction to the Olympics.
I’m OotL on the Shitlympics intentionally, what are the big babies crying about now?
People want to claim the drag performance was making fun of “The Last Supper” and the Gojira concert was “satanic”.
People want to claim the drag performance was making fun of “The Last Supper”
By their own statements, that was their actual intention though.
No it wasn’t. It was an homage to a French painting of Greek gods having a bacchanal.
Drag queens in the opening ceremony
It’s not every muslim. Only the bigoted/loudest ones. Just like not every christian intimidates you to accept Jesus as your savior.
To be fair, their respective prophets seem to have differing tastes for violence. At least, it’s a long way from paradise lies in the shade of swords (Hadith 2818) to those who live by the sword die by the sword (Matthew 28:52).
In practice, all religious texts are selectively applied or creatively interpreted to support a people’s current need or preference, be it war or peace. Most Muslims now interpret jihad as an internal struggle with the self, for example. But to the extent that the words themselves can make peace more or less difficult, there’s a gap between those two Abrahamic religions.
Oh, yes I do remember that incident, but I never would have connected it with Yoda etc. Thanks.
Mohamed. For reference search it+ South Park
Is it Jimmy Saville?
No, it’s Rolf Harris.
Sure, but we can’t talk about that, it’d be “bigoted” so instead let’s just blame the Jews again
This type of comment is always hilarious to me. We’re talking about it right now. Nobody has been called bigoted. It’s fine.
Fuck off, all religions are fucking stupid and need to die. They have no place in human civilization anymore. It is time to move on.
Isreal is a religious ethnostate, in the same way most of the middle east is, in the same way large swaths of the bible belt try (and many times succeed) to be.
The only difference between these three is the amount of money and leeway they’re given to enact their stupid bullshit. Its time the adults in the room stopped putting up with it.
Have you considered public office? You’d have my vote
Linux users
LiNuX bAD
More like WiNdoWs bAd.
🤓
Windows is a huge piece of shit. I tried to deny it for a long time but I was wrong. And it’s only getting worse.
wINdOwS bAd 🤓
nOn-CoRpOrAtE OpTioNs BaD
Nobody made that point nerd.
nerd
Says the person on Lemmy who tries to start a fight about Linux people.
Who would Linux users murder if you showed a picture of… who exactly?
Linus Tolvards with a T-shirt saying “I love NVidia”
There once was a post on the Onion about a caricature of Christian, Judaist, Hindu and Buddhist gods having an orgy and no believers wishing death upon the author, but sighing and closing the tab instead.
There was one with mohammed included too in a french satirical paper, but it was sometimes in the -70 or -80. Much cooler times.
…didn’t that French newspaper then much later end up getting shot up?
I think it’s the same but I’m not sure. The shooting was like 40 years later though so not relevant to the mohammed orgy images.
It was shot up by people who were mad that the journal was regularly doing drawings like that.
Yes but that was 30-40 years later.
It’s not that specific drawing, it’s that they still make drawings like it regularly.
I dunno, that “other” group of fanatics isn’t in charge of the two largest nuclear arsenals in the world, so I’d dispute them being “far more dangerous.”
I wonder if the anonymous nature of memes could “shield” authors making images of Mohammad? How would you track them down? Would be even more difficult on federated instances/ActivityPub.
That’s actually a fair point but then loser butthurt extremists will probably just attack random targets (like they already have many times) because someone’s gotta pay for the offense caused.
Fair point. Like if you took an still from a movie, they’d attack the actors in it.
I’m really confused about the “No one can have my picture but almost every single one of my male believers is going to carry my name” situation.
Religions are kind of weird, aren’t they?
It’s a rule thing. Like not eating pork or shellfish, but less tangible and comprehensible than a dietary restriction.
Not depicting people with representative art is a thing that isn’t universally embraced in Islam or by every Muslim. But similarly there’s going to be some person out there who feels as strongly about it as they would if someone intentionally snuck pork into their food.
Well, really fundamentalist whackdoodle strains of Islam actually go so far as to claim that no pictorial depiction of any living thing is allowed. They just get really extra touchy about old Mr. M.
Jury’s out on how, exactly, that would stand up to things like television and photographs. But I’m not an imam and I don’t have the entirety of the hadiths in front of me so I don’t fuckin’ know. The whole thing is obviously wonky on its face.
the picture thing is to avoid idolatry, which was the main type of religion in the region at the time Islam was beginning. people were used to worship to (or via) visual depictions of gods, so a ban on visual representations of people was an effort to avoid people falling into old habits.
kind of the opposite approach of christians with pagans, where christians appropriated pagan symbols to make Christianity more appealing, media were concerned with differentiating themselves from other religions.
uttering names isn’t taboo in Islam like it is in Christianity. while some Christians avoid saying God, Jesus or the like, Muslims are encouraged to use god’s name frequently. however they’re not allowed to call people certain names reserved for god alone, but that isn’t the case for the prophet. so it’s considered sort of a tribute or a sign of respect to name people after the prophet.
interesting fact, Muhammed isn’t the prophet’s only name, so while this is the most common name in the world, the number of people named after the prophet is even higher, because it includes some other names, most common after Muhammed being Ahmed.
That right there is so annoying… Imagine a doctor’s waiting room, and a nurse asks Mr Mohammed to come in and 20 guys stand up.
Always has been. Religion is the single biggest reason to not believe in religion.
“Religion has given us hope in a world torn apart by religion.”
I’m really confused about the “No one can have my picture but almost every single one of my male believers is going to carry my name” situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm#
Just an artifact of history.
Fun fact: While pictures of Mohammed are a no-no for Sunnis (Arabic World), it’s a common thing for Shias (Iran mostly).
Even the Far Side got in on the act
Fucking Star Wars fans…
As a Star Wars fan, have an angry upvote
