But Russia officially belongs to Mongolia
And a part to Sweden.
I thought Russia belonged to Ukraine and China belonged to Mongolia.
POV: you wrote anything anywhere and you don’t have hexabear/lemmygrad/lemmyml blocked.
Isn’t people ‘belonging’ someone else a definition of slavery?
It is
Uh…Russia, China and North Korea are all fascist dictatorships. Tankies wouldn’t be nearly as annoying if they had a fucking clue what they were taking about.
Know the most annoying part?
All these LGBTQ+ tankies from Hexbear would literally be killed in those countries for supporting LGBTQ+. And the cops will say that they deserve it.
Well, not in Russia. In Russia they would be killed in trenches for Putin’s yachts. Or if they oppose Pu, then for opposing Pu.
If you’re going to complain about people knowing what they’re talking about, you should at least use the right words to describe things.
You can call Russia, China and North Korea dictatorships, but each of those three are just literally not fascist. Fascism arises from different circumstances and acts differently, even if there are surface similarities to notice, and those differences are important to understand if we want to analyze them and prevent them happening here. Russia, in particular, is important to understand when looking at the USA’s current neoliberal nightmare.
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
far-right
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
authoritarian
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
utranationalist
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
dictatorial leader
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
central autocracy
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
militarism
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
forcible suppression of opposition
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
belief in a natural social hierarchy
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race,
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
Sorry…what is it about these fascist dictatorships that you think isn’t fascist dictatorship?
1) Ideologies are frameworks which guide actions, not a list of symptoms.
Ideologies are formed by material conditions in history, not just a group of ideas put together. That’s why neoliberalism and fascism are also distinct, despite all the surface-level similarities we can see around the world.
Fascism wasn’t just invented by someone saying ‘why doesn’t one person have all the power and get rid of minorities’. Fascism grew out of the conditions of the 1910s in Europe during a wave of socialist and communist uprisings which threatened the bourgeois, quelled by returning soldiers from WWI. That’s why it’s militaristic and ultranationalist, that’s why it’s anti-communist and anti-liberal.
- This list ignores other core traits, including those listed in the very next sentence after that quote, such as anti-communism anti-liberalism and anti-democratic ideas, class collaborationist, traditionalism w/ selective modernism, primary support base among the petit bourgeois, denouncement of ‘[haute] bourgeois capitalism’ despite often working alongside the haute booj to subdue the lower class.
Fascism is born out of anti-communist sentiment in the petit-bourgeoisie (lower owning class), while two of those countries are ruled by communist parties. Russia is a haute-bourgeoisie capitalist state, not class collaborationist or petit-bourgious. China and North Korea openly dominate the haute booj rather than vice versa. Contrast these all against fascist states.
- Saying ‘Check’ for cases which clearly don’t check:
-
The CPC (‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’) and WPK (Juche) are not far-right. They’re both generally considered far-left, and certainly not far-right (FWIW, ‘left’ and ‘right’ are a poor model for understanding politics).
-
Ultranationalism is not ‘lots of nationalism’, it’s when a country “asserts or maintains detrimental hegemony, supremacy, or other forms of control over other nations (usually through violent coercion) to pursue its specific interests.” North Korea clearly doesn’t have control over other nations.
-
China does not believe in militaristism.
-
What natural social hierarchy do these states believe in?
-
Russia is individualist, not collectivist.
-
What regimentation is there?
Some of those other points are debatable (such as congress party structures with a president being dictatorships, where fascists explicitly denounce that as liberalism), but these are some which are just blatant.
Imagine being pedantic and wrong.
I’m being pedantic because lives are at stake, and recognizing different ideologies is how you learn to combat them.
But if you want to treat it like a joke, go ahead. I couldn’t imagine being you.
I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize fascism as an ideology, but as a political strategy.
I wonder if it’s useful to characterize fascism as a political strategy, as it seems this might ignore the historical conditions which form it and guide it (e.g. returning military, petit-booj resistance to the labor movement to preserve their class interests) and therefore inform us of how other classes will generally act as the labor movement grows.
How would you describe fascism as a political strategy? Does this mean, for example, using scapegoats (like racial minorities and queer folk) as a threat to rally for dictatorial powers?
ignore the historical conditions
I absolutely detest this phrase and have a low opinion of anyone who uses it. The entire point of definitions and extrapolations thereof is to be able to make simple models that we can use to understand something. The idea that we always need to keep history in mind is idiotic; there are times when it is an important consideration, and times when it’s unnecessary. Simply stating that something ignores certain historical context is not, by itself, a knock-down argument.
The current version of my technical definition of fascism is as such:
A political strategy that seeks to preserve, create, and entrench structures and relationships of power imbalance by means of promoting and facilitating mass, broad-spectrum chauvinism in ways that are likely to encourage widespread individual and systemic violence.
“Chauvinism” here-in refers to an irrational belief that one’s own identity makes them superior. This definition is inspired by and generalizes Umberto Eco’s model. I believe it also encapsulates what people are concerned about when talking about fascism; control and discrimination. If you have suggestions on how to adjust or change the definition, it would be helpful.
I don’t believe that fascism can be defined as an ideology, because fascists aren’t ideologically coherent. That is to say: different fascist movements are hardly ever compatible, and individual fascists within any particular movement aren’t usually consistent with their beliefs; fascists “believe” whatever is convenient at the time.
Edit: forgot to mention that we can factor in history by asking when these strategies tend to be used, how successful they tend to be, and observing if previous groups labeled as fascist used this class of strategy.
I don’t believe that fascism can be defined as an ideology, because fascists aren’t ideologically coherent.
It very clearly can’t be one coherent ideology, just like liberalism isn’t, just like communism isn’t. I’m definitely not trying to claim even those individual types (e.g. Italian Fascism, Nazism) are consistent, internally logical, or any of that. Rather, there are common themes, ideas and features which group them together and distinguish them from other ideologies. These groups form a model of relationships between values, ideas and behaviors.
The reason I bring historical circumstance into this is because this model acknowledges attributes like militarism and class collaboration as core components of fascism, with the implied question: why did militarism and class collaborationism take hold in some cases (where a fascist regime rose) and not in others (where it fizzles or is defeated)? Historical factors like World War I and the subsequent wave of communist uprisings are related to why fascist ideologies were developed and were supported by many ex-military and bourgeois. And that is why the conservative racist chauvinism in the neoliberal US and Europe is taking remarkably different shapes to the fascist movements of the 1920s, despite those similarities which guide your definition all being present.
An example of this is neo-Nazi movements like Patriot Front and their international equivalents, which do not receive the blessing of the owning class, which are floundering and failing worse than the British Union of Fascists. There are reasons why they can’t replicate the same political strategy and tactics as they did before, and some of those reasons are because we now have different environmental factors. They can’t recruit defeated ex-servicemen en masse, so they now primarily recruit vulnerable alienated nerdy teen boys. They can’t yet (and often don’t want to) earn the blessing of the bourgeoisie at scale because the populations have shifted in a more progressive direction. So then we see neo-Nazi ‘Siege’ tactics emerge, which are inspired by late-1800s Propaganda of the Deed anarchist tactics, and that is not going well for them either.
Then, we have White Nationalist and/or Christian Nationalists as politicians and billionaires. They often don’t want militarism or have military values. They probably don’t want class collaboration (because they’re winning in the class struggle). So like their goals, their tactics and strategies will overall differ to the fascist movements, despite the shared chauvanism.
If you have suggestions on how to adjust or change the definition, it would be helpful.
I worry that it is too broad, discarding what makes fascist movements unique. I believe the part about violence is ultimately redundant, as I assume systematic chauvinism itself makes individual violence and violent repression likely. The definition, in my view, is really just describing a strategy of using chauvinistic hierarchy, and I don’t understand why that is special enough to be called ‘fascism’, if anything that will just trivialize fascist movements and make the word itself banal, since for example xenophobic chauvinism is a strategy used by almost all governments worldwide, and which does lead to domestic violence.
And recently, every Venezuelan protest is a CIA plot to overthrow Maduro.
Meanwhile, most of the people speaking publicly who are protestors have demands that are very much within the left of political spectrum. They are just done with this corrupt asshole. Yeah, some are not that way, but for everyone right wing sentiment I find, I see like 3 that have all progressive demands.
But would you surrender your country to Russia or China just because your current leader is a corrupt asshole? Would you have voted for Biden instead of Trump?
The US could have run a social democrat in Venezuela and they’d have won. Instead they picked some ultra-right wing reactionary assholes to support. They picked people who supported the 2002 coup and are in favour of the crushing economic warfare against Venezuela.
Of course there is legitimate protest against Maduro. But he’s the only choice if you don’t want your country to be forever owned and irrevocably fucked by the US imperialist boot. They have oil. That’s all a regime propped up by the US would need to support, oil extraction. No schools, no universities, no roads, no hospitals, just oil extraction. It’s a fucking grim future if you understand the rules.
It is not an either/or thing. You can absolutely remove the man abusing the people and tell the US to kindly fuck off.
I honestly don’t see how you can do that. The problem is that the opposition and the media is presumably propped up by the US. Under that type of siege (and it is a siege, the US is at war with Venezuela) you don’t have lots of choices. History has shown the results of US interventionism in many countries. So I do think it’s an either/or thing.
PS: Just look at Argentina how quickly the democratic and social progress of a country can be dismantled.
It is entirely possible, probable even at this point that Maduro just lost the confidence of his people.
Sure, it’s impossible to keep a democracy going with those sanctions. The US is allowing nobody to trade with them. Eventually they’ll surrender or collapse.
Nobody?
They export to China, Turkiye, Spain, and even the US. That hardly sounds like they’ve been blockaded.
And the Biden administration tried to roll back the sanctions we do have. But Maduro went back on the deal, specifically related to making sure the elections were free and fair.
At some point Maduro is the one fucking around. And obviously it’s possible to tell the US to leave you alone, plenty of countries have poor relations with the US and are doing fine.
Mobile bill goes up in any South American country, thanks CIA
It’s weird how this categorical thinking gets meta.
How does it work? How can country belong to country? Do citizens of one belong to citizens of another? Slavery in Europe in 21st century?
Someone clearly forgot to take meds.
“If you don’t support the rights of these imperialistic fascist regimes to do imperialistic and fascist things then you are an imperialist and a fascist.”
Yeah okay. Sure.
- USA belongs to Great Britain
- England and France belongs to the Roman empire
- Poland belongs to Prussia
England belongs to roman empire too.
Oh wait, does that mean US belongs to the roman empire all along?
Guys with moron labia stickers on their pavement princess trucks would love this until they had to wear roman clothing that they’d assume were dresses.
I’ve seen trucknutz, but not labia stickers
Sorry. This thing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe
ohh… I have definitely seen “come and take them” gun stickers between “Fuck Trudeau” and “Proud member of the freedom convoy” stickers
/c/DirtyRomanMemes about to implode
I’m sure there’s a famous song about it…
"They see me Roman’
“They hatin’”Austria belongs to Hungary or something idk history class isn’t great here
In the end, we’re all subjects of the Fourth Reich.
I’m pretty sure half the Middle East belongs to the Hittites and the other half belongs to Egypt.
How far back are we going? Babylon? Assyria? Who ran China in the 9th century BCE? We may need to resurrect Terror Birds and give the Americas back to them.
No countries are real. Everything belongs to everyone because our ancestors were there first.
This is actually a good one
Humans play pretend we own the Earth, then get angry at each other while carving it up a little finer and finer, usually with blood or threats of blood.
The reality is, Earth owns us. Always has. We are subject to it.
We’ve been very, very naughty subjects.
Earth is in the process of handling us for that.
If you disagree with any of this, knock yourself out, the Earth doesn’t care. All the corporate and governmental attempts at ignoring/bribing/negotiating with physics for decades as they forcefeed a willfully ignorant populace microplastics has been gallows hilarious though. Should have been a better species. 🤷♂️
(On the bright side, the capitalists, fascists, and greed apologists will all get what’s coming to them, and the cultures that did live in homeostasis with the Earth, who were largely killed in the name of profit and conquest, may have been exterminated, but they will not have to experience the shame of watching the world end by their own greedy hands.)
No.
Yes.
No.
Yes.
No.Imagine looking at millions of people living in the relatively prosperous democracy of South Korea and believing that all these people belong as chattel slaves of a monarch who starves his people and throws entire families into concentration camps to die if one member dares to speak out. Every regime supported here is a fascist dictator.
Your friend who is wrong 100% of the time.
Every lemmy.ml community is the wrong community to join.
TIL there are “'correct” .ml communities.
I’ve not had too much of a problem in the .ml communities. they have their opinions and discuss them.
it’s that hexbear half joke half serious mix of Marxists and fascists that like reallllly get off on removing comments that don’t suit their agenda. I understand not agreeing, but silencing dissenting opinions is the foundation of a lame internet community.
I’ve not had too much of a problem in the .ml communities.
I thought the same until recently. Then I called Maduro(Venezuelas dictator) a dictator and oop, banned.
Not every community wants to be a debate club.
I’ve been subbed to a bunch of their comms and not seen anything that was explicitly or could be construed as fascist.
Most English language online spaces have the western media narrative rigidly enforced. Some people prefer to not have to have a /c/worldnews debate exchange in places they hang out.
Well there sure as hell are “incorrect” ones, apparently.
[email protected] and other open source projects are decent
As always, [email protected] and [email protected] are here as alternatives
