One side has real Nazis
And the other side seeks to compromise with them.
OK, we fucking know, so? We should let the Nazi’s win because the Democrats are spineless capitalists?
The point is that we can’t count on neo-liberals to do the right thing, they’re complicit in all this. So the Dems as a whole aren’t a party we can rely on until we primary them out.
Oh damn you right we should’ve voted for the magical third party that definitely would’ve won
I probably don’t agree with @[email protected] but he said primary them, not vote third party.
If by common logic voting is power, we need to organize and vote people into office that better represent us. Not just resign ourselves to this fate. I just don’t understand this desire to not put up any fight at all. It seems counter intuitive to survival.
I just don’t understand this desire to not put up any fight at all. It seems counter intuitive to survival.
Bitter and deep spite and resentment. Disgust. Self destructive stubborn catharsis in ruining people who you hate even if it destroys you as well.
Just as the campists who actively live in “amerikkka” as I do for US citizen non-voters now.
I’ve voted in primaries for better candidates for the Dems since I could vote, for more progressive people so we have good representation. As much as I hate establishment Dems I’m not going to stop trying if for it. I’m disenfranchised by them more often than not and that makes me angry to want to do something, not be spiteful.
Yeah, but you can’t primary the Dems thoroughly enough before 26 or 28.
So the only VIABLE option in the near term to STOP FASCISM is voting Dem.
But I’m sure a bunch of fools will still do the 3rd party thing come 28.
Normally I’d be fine with them voting 3rd party in midterms, but in case anyone hasn’t noticed, things are getting pretty dark here. This is not the time to fuck around with a 3rd party, even for midterms.
Vote 3rd party in local/state elections AFTER Americans stop getting executed in the street by masked federal goons. And don’t vote 3rd party for president until a 3rd party can actually win the presidency.
Normally I’d be fine with them voting 3rd party
Wake up babe, it’s the most important election f our lifetime again.
Democratic apologists have literally been saying this for 26 years. Your strategy of Vote Blue No Matter Who is what brought you to this point.
You want to just have the problems go away without any struggle. And it’s not gonna happen.
I was mostly responding to the first part but yeah, definitely primary the fuckers out.
No third party candidate could have lost as bad as Kamala did. Presidency and both Houses.
Objectively wrong because there were third party candidates already on the ballot! How could you say they would’ve won when they already were running and lost?! “Oh they would’ve won if they were there” They were there! [These are they!](Third-party and independent candidates for the 2024 United States presidential election - Wikipedia https://share.google/xcOuOQvNZvwLprps9)
I didn’t say they would’ve won, stop moving goal posts.
I said they couldn’t have lost more than Kamala did. Because it was a binary thing on three counts?
Did she win the Presidency? No.
Did she keep the Senate? No.
Did she win the House? No.
No matter what you think of Claudia De La Cruz or Jill Stein, it’s just a simple fact neither one of them could have given a worse outcome than that one. And given the resources Kamala had, that’s particularly pathetic.
So are you saying that the third party candidates would’ve won given her resources and backing?
ALL third party candidates in the last 50 years have always lost everything. Also, Kamala wasn’t running for house or senate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(U.S._politics)#Electoral_results
She was running for Presidency. And lost. Badly. As her party lost both houses.
Pick any third party, they won just as much as Kamala did - and didn’t spend a billion and a half to do so.
What, so you and I are as successful at federal elections as any third party?
I mean - okay. But some idiots gave them $200 Million for that. We did it for free, apparently.
I’m saying they’re an unworkable idea at almost any price.
“Oh damn, we should continue to just suffer in this system and not demand better about it because can’t change it!” - That’s what you sound like right now.
I’m in favor of changing the system but I’m not going to let the idea of a better system delude me into thinking that we’re in that improved system already. We absolutely should change the system, but when you look at the system we had at the time of the election, who else were people going to vote for if they didn’t want trump to win? We didn’t have ranked choice, we didn’t even get a primary for the Democrats.
Blaming the Democrats for not winning is taking away the blame and attention away from the people everyone should be mad at, the Republicans. Dems fucked up, but that’s not holding Republicans accountable for what they are doing right now.
We should demand that it be better, but shooting ourselves in the foot while doing it is only going to give us a shot foot
We’re already shooting ourselves in the foot. The Dems, even when they had a trifecta in 2008, were still dropping the ball. They don’t elect effective people, just people who keep ensuring payments go up and not down.
Bullshit.
Very shortsighted indeed.
Blaming the Democrats for what the Republicans are doing is like blaming the guy who opened the door for the serial killer to get into the house. Yeah, you shouldn’t have done that, yeah, you fucked up, yeah, you knew what would happen, but that’s not the same level of bad as the actual serial killer stabbing people. It’s even shifting blame away from the serial killer and holding the killer less accountable.
They could have won, people like you harassing others is part of the reason they didn’t. Go ahead and keep acting like the smartest guy in the room, you just look like a petulant child trying to force others to agree with you.
Nope
So the Dems as a whole aren’t a party we can rely on until we primary them out.
Not happening before 26 or 28.
So your solution?
And please don’t say 3rd party. It’s obvious to anyone that pays attention that no 3rd party is viable and won’t be for a long, long time, if ever. No 3rd party has made themselves a household name. No 3rd party even has a SINGLE member in Congress. In the 2024 election the most popular 3rd party candidate only got 0.5% of the total votes cast.
Not happening.
So…
There’s some primaries left for 2026 to vote in, work from there. The neo-liberal dems are bad but they’re not worm brained at least. Just hope they don’t put fucking Newsom up for 2028 otherwise it’ll be same as it ever was with him.
Its going to happen. So, get your 3rd party together, or climb the DNC because y’all now have . . . . Less than three years to become political leaders.
That’s a shit fucking point. A better point: fascists won and they did not need to.
Neo-liberals are not fascists. They’re greedy, nihilistic, empty husks. But they are not frothing at the mouth for killing gay’s and gassing brown people. Neo-liberals can actually be relied upon to be capitalistic and not give a shit about nationalism or “traditional values” and are generally easier to fight because they don’t operate a cult (or at least not like the fascists do).
Some non-voter’s justification of “they’re both the same” is pants on head regarded.
Are you wearily representing yourself in Bart or mocking people like Bart?
The first one.
See, I need to know then how serious that perspective is because for me, blurring the lines between ideologies (even bad ones) is largely just an emotional manipulation tactic.
You call a neo-liberal a fascist and they’ll get really upset. You call a fascist a liberal of any kind… they’ll also get really upset. So if that’s the goal that makes sense. But then leftists will say it to other leftists like its actually true, particularly campists, auth-left, and marxist-leninists will do this and this just seems dumb to me. They are different threats and should be treated differently.
This is the single dumbest meme I’ve ever seen in my life and you should be ashamed because I cannot be ashamed enough for the both of us that you posted this.
Dial 911 and ask the operator to help you get back in school.
Must be your first day on the Internet.
Less both sides are bad and more the democrats are so fucking convinced that being just to the left of republicans and so fucking unwilling to do anything to fight against them that legitimately it would have just been better to just have Trump win in 2020 so that he would still have no plan for what to do with the power.
If Gavin Newsome is the democratic candidate in 2028 I will not vote for him. All that him winning would do is let the republicans win in 2032 and actually just end democracy. If they can’t cancel the 2028 elections then there is no way they would be able to build up the support needed to cancel them by the next election, and at least that would give us one more chance to get someone who might do something.
I read on the interwebs somewhere that in some US states or counties you can vote for proportional representation. If you don’t want to vote for the 2 big parties, at least go vote for that. It’s how the democracy in European countries works. First-past-the-post like what the US has is an awful democratic ‘solution’.
There are actually three sides and only two of them are bad.
apathetic people are the most stable supporter group of any evil side
Yeah, keep voting for either side of the purple party duopoly. That’ll start working soon, for super super sure.
Hey champ.
What’s your solution?
Voting 3rd party isn’t a solution because no 3rd party has done the work to become a nationally viable party. Not even remotely close.
So. Your solution, champ?
[One possible avenue…]
Step 1:
Not falling for that [circular-reasoned] self fulfilling prophecy.
XD
Ooh I know this one: workers seize the means of production and smash the state! And then . . uh, like, some cool dudes fix it way better than it was? Or something. I dunno tbh.
I do know these people will never have an actual plan or an actual leader.
Oh wow. You want a leader?
Can’t get there from here.
No plan, sounds good to me.
How about more people in the system realise that they too, even their bosses, and everybody, are better off with the technologies that can emancipate everybody get released, rather than suppressed as they are now. End this lost century or two.
More than just whistleblowers.
Once the genie’s out of the bottle, they cannot put it back in.
…
I recall patent office whistle blower Tom Valone, at energy conferences sometime between 2000 and 2005 iirc, stating something like, that, “by the year 2000 there have already been over 3000 free energy device patents secreted”. How much headroom do we have without the crooks holding us down, without us being hog-tied to their polluting and inferior technology metered for rents? … Y’know they can print gold, right?
Word of the day: Agnotology.
It’s a big industry. One so few know anything about. By recursive design.
PS, Bucky was right:
“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” – Buckminster Fuller
Can’t get there from here.
Well that’s a shame
Just commenting to get it past 88 comments. Crisis averted.
What I like about this is how it shows communication breaking down, not just disagreement. That feels very real.
Remember, criticizing this comic will get you sued for defamation.
I got banned from lemmy ml memes community for saying exactly this.
Removed by mod
First, I vote. But here is a take… I have heard countless people say that if you support the nazi’s in anyway, you are a nazi. Ok, so the entire US government serves the purpose of enriching the wealthy, empowering other governments to commit genocide, countless war crimes (well before trump), keeping people poor, ensuring healthcare is always expensive, and enabling car rental companies to not have the car you reserved and be penalty free, while if you don’t show, you pay them. So by voting you are participating in that government, which means you are responsible for all that.
Seems like a neat trick they came up with when they started having votes. You think you have a say, but really it’s just an illusion.You think you have a say, but really it’s just an illusion.
So you’re saying that regardless of which party I vote for the results are identical?
Cuz that’s really fucking stupid and untrue.
Pretty sure I didn’t say that. Both parties ensure you work for the rich. They just do it differently. So not identical. Think of it like a choice of two roads. One southwest, and one southeast. They go to different places, but they both go south. So overall, it’s going to get warmer.
Oh, and asking a question that poses your incorrect interpretation, then calling it stupid… is really saying your interpretation is stupid. What’s the problem with just asking a clarifying question and skipping the insult? This isn’t reddit.
That’s not a take so much as it is a bunch of disjointed, almost-sensical thoughts thrown into a paragraph together.
It’s called a list. We are talking about an organization with a trillion $ budget. They do lots of disjointed things. And I threw a little humor in. I am such a terrible person, I know.
Nazis liked making lists, too.
The most famous list maker worked against the nazis
Santa?
It’s called a list.
A list of words does not a coherent thought make.
All of this… it could have been stopped. We don’t have to love (or even like) the Democrats, but it was such an important election, and everybody was screaming to vote against fascism. Well, a lot of people couldn’t be bothered, and it’s here now. Hope our country survives this administration…
Hope our country survives this administration…
I often do hope it survives but then realize I don’t even really know why. Its still a country dominated by people willing to throw people under the bus for personal gain, nationalism/racism, and their hatred of LGBT. And among the non-voters, you have proudly ignorant morons, & people pearl clutching over their personal virtue, & people hoping for the slight chance of a violent revolution where their ideology comes out on top of all the corpses in their delusional imagination.
Like, why should I care? Why do I care? It makes no fucking sense.
I want the Nazis to lose because it should be apparent. But you’re on the money, this country at its core and history has had issues long before this. The Dems were pretty radical anti-LGBT before they became a significant force in politics. They were content to just ignore them at best.
And those people are still insisting that we don’t blame them for the consequences of their decisions.
Of course, and I don’t fault them the impulse. No one likes being told they fucked up, which was why so many of us were so vocal before the election. I don’t even want to assign blame, instead to just help them to understand that (if our democracy can withstand this), we genuinely need them…
Like you, I was a consequentialist before the election. I’m struggling to stay that way and now I might be a virtue ethicist who hates all US citizens who were not consequentialist before November 5th 2024 because I think they’re just shit fucking people not worth saving.
Part of me wants to be wrong. I want to be convinced. And yet I’m always going to be deeply fucking resentful if I find myself helping these people ever again. I shouldn’t have to lift a fucking finger. Doing so literally psychologically hurts.
The roughly third who are completely on board with the fourth reich even when it decimates their family business or even entire town are lost. They’ll have their epiphany about how bad a particular policy is, but somehow it’s either OK in light of all the ‘good’ that Donvict is doing or the fault of some underling.
The non voting third will just keep doing nothing. So long as the bread* and circuses keep rolling in, they won’t notice anything until full on collapse.
Even if some sort of magic happens and a sweep of the house and senate were to happen, replete with all of them executed as traitors or jailed for life… we’ve addressed none of the root problems of a completely bought and sold political system that none of us are a part of.
I just think that the blame should be squarely on the people who actively voted for the fascism.
But what if we can find a way to scream at people that agree with us on 80-90% of issues instead? That seems more productive than focusing on the actual Nazis!
There were more non-voters than there were voters for Orangina
I’m going to keep holding them accountable too!
Not lifting a finger against fascism is actively voting for fascism. Yes, the choices were all bad, but one was obviously much, much worse and they made a choice. Nobody gets a pass for gross negligence simply because irresponsible decisions were lower-effort than others.
“don’t blame me, I voted for 90% Hitler!”
So is Harris the “90% Hitler” in this case? Because, yeah no.
Because, yes.
We can jump into Gaza, or just start with . . . https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/kamala-harris-tough-migration-pitch-border-points-shifting-national-mo-rcna172850
Though it doesn’t really matter, since your centrist neoliberal ate shit and lost anyways. Is there a German word maybe for when you sell your soul and still wind up broke?
It’s in part because Biden ran on opposing fascism, got elected, and then did nothing to oppose fascism. He sold himself as a dragonslayer, but once he got in, he didn’t want to upset the pro-dragon crowd.
So, yeah, when his protege ran the exact same campaign, it didn’t instill a lot of confidence.
He slow walked us to this, Trump should have been jailed, convicted, and in the dirt by now. But no, the neo-liberals didn’t want to upset the MAGAts or something. His speech about needing both Democrats and Republicans made me SICK.
As much as that’s true this was all necessary. Biden wouldn’t have gotten anything passed that would fix our current situation. The MAGAts controlled the house.
Look at all the progressive candidates that are already winning elections. After this if there isn’t a supermajority in both house and senate than the country was lost long ago.
That is a really stupid reason to let a fascist win though. Like, why should I respect or align myself with such a stupid group of people?
What’s stupider? Trying to kick Lucy’s football again or walking away?
What would the Democrats be doing differently if they were actual fascist collaborators? I can’t think of anything. The Democrats make up excuses for why they can’t intervene, then they blame the voters. Voting D hasn’t solved the fascist problem for 50+ years. Democrats have overseen some of the most brutal genocides and mass murder campaigns against non-Europeans. They have total continuity in funding and protecting the military-industrial-media-complex. They have total continuity in ensuring there are no consequences for the most egregious violations of human rights, civil rights, and human decency.
Mass incarceration is a bi-partisan consensus. Prison slavery is a bi-partisan consensus. Black ghettos are a bi-partisan consensus. Solitary confinement is a bi-partisan consensus. Solitary confinement for toddlers is a bi-partisan consensus. Starving children and elderly around the world is a bi-partisan consensus. Spying on all US citizens through warrantless surveillance dragnets of all communications is a bi-partisan consensus. Militarizing local police is a bi-partisan consensus. Undermining labor unions is a bi-partisan consensus. Maintaining legacy apartheid structures in funding elementary and secondary education is a bi-partisan consensus.
At what point do we conclude that the Democrats couldn’t be worse if they were actively supporting fascism? At what point do we say that their limited and milquetoast rhetoric against a few bad things, and only some times, and only some of them, is not a sufficient reason to believe they are on our side?
Like, why should I respect or align myself with such a stupid group of people?
Which is exactly the question they were asking. You want someone to blame, it’s the DNC.
You don’t have to align with someone you vote for in a FPTP system.
And no, your suggestion is based on a false dichotomy. I blame the DNC AND the non-voters. I can despise both and do.
So you have no care of causal relationships whatsoever so long as you get to spew your hate at everyone.
On lemmy? No. I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to scream into the void.
IRL, I have to hold in my thoughts usually unless I want to endanger my well being in multiple ways because pissing almost everyone you know off is a fast way to end up a homeless pariah.
Just because I’m not sure you understood, causal was not a typo. I did not mean casual.
And no, your suggestion is based on a false dichotomy. I blame the DNC AND the non-voters. I can despise both and do.
Exactly. Fucking tired of this “blame the dnc, not the voters” bullshit. I blame both.
I’m starting to find it odd that these people seem to be unable to grasp this.
If your only options are the fascist or the guy who promised to bring the fascist to justice but actually didn’t even try, then your problem isn’t getting solved by voting in that election.
Who said I thought voting would solve the problem? You aren’t engaging with my core issue: non-voters were content to let Trump win. Are they worth my time and effort morally? Why?
I already know the DNC doesn’t align with me perfectly, as a mutualist I’m against private property. But they’re not fascists. I mostly just hate the DNC because of their weakness and ineptitude even more so than the liberal ideology.
That said, at least with the DNC, there is something I can get out of them politically with theoretically much less effort compared to the masses of non-voting 2024 morons who engaging with would be akin to trying to herd cats.
Hell, at this point: I don’t even care anymore. I kind of hate the non-voters enough that I’m now fueled by spite for them. I don’t care who wins elections anymore because I just can’t fucking give a shit. Its obviously out of my hands and the non-voters are getting what they deserve.
I only feel sorry for the people who are faultless, like the millions starving to death because Trump’s admin illegally shut down USAID, or the ICE round ups of innocent immigrants where they’re probably being human trafficked, raped, and murdered.
Maybe if you stopped viewing every single election as “this one has to solve everything”
It’s not “this one has to solve everything” so much as “this one needs to even demonstrate an attempt at the promises given.”
In 2008 Obama ran on codifying Roe v. Wade, but once he was in office? “It’s not the time.” The DNC has been lying to progressives since before I could vote.
The DNC is a bunch of completely corrupt people who were okay with Trump winning in 2016 and 2024 due to their own stupid antics fucking with elections and ignoring the will of the voters.
But again, the other side is literal Nazis. It’s not completely weird to think that the DNC should have gotten away with their BS.
Scratch a neo-liberal a nazi bleeds. The fact ANY Dem has voted for any Trump nominee is a disgrace. They’ve lost the argument they’re the paid opposition with me entirely. I don’t subscribe to their BS talking about the actual left now because they marginalize us when we’re winning or they’re in charge, the whip us as the blame for losing.
I can’t help but feel like it’s also in part because a good amount of folks are just… as delicately as I can put it… the kind of people that pick up a fork to eat a bowl of soup.
The rationale I have heard from tons and tons of voters just makes absolutely no god damn sense at all. There’s of course mass manipulation and all that but goodness gracious, the complete lack of critical thinking skills is astounding.
They aren’t stupid, they are selfish and ego driven, and they base success/goodness on the number in their bank account.
The fact the most Americans sell their morals is a part of the culture and something that needs to change before things get better.
Yeah, like I went down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole because of all the fuckery around 9/11 but then left the Alex Jones part of it when it became clear he didn’t really gaf about changing anything, which meant he either didn’t believe it or was working with them instead of against them (leaning more towards him just making shit up, though I did still believe that things weren’t what they seemed with how society was run). The nail in the coffin for me was a very high production value video explaining what was going on that ended with a “but I have an answer, wait for the next video to find out!” And I’m thinking “wait, cliffhangers are engagement bait, not something you should say after talking about how the elites want to reduce the world population to like 100 million. He’s just in it for the money, also how the fuck is he producing such high production quality videos?”
It wasn’t aligned with either US politics “side” and subscribed to the “it’s all an act, they are all buddy buddy behind closed doors” point of view, but I came out of it around the end of the Bush era, was happy to see Obama win but disappointed in how his actual presidency went (he seemed to have the resolve of a wet noodle when it came to actually fighting for the right things.
It was baffling as fuck when the conspiracy theory crowd was aligned behind fucking Donald Trump, of all people. Seemed like the poster boy for the elites rather than a saviour. I didn’t watch a ton of the apprentice but none that I did see gave me any kind of positive impression of him. He just seemed like the asshole type of boss.
Pizzagate was also stupid as fuck (why the fuck would a pedophile ring for rich people operate out of the basement of a public building?). And gamergate was one of the lamest whiny things I’ve seen (though not sure how much of that came from the conspiracy side, it might have been going after a different audience).
Like I get how it feels going down that rabbit hole, things that were confusing can make more sense and there’s truth at the core of it, but you need to continue using critical thought or you just end up becoming someone’s tool. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend!
Maxim 29: The enemy of your enemy is your enemy’s enemy. No more. No less.
I feel this. My in-laws voted for Trump because Biden was going to outlaw Catholicism in the United States. Absolute lunatics.
Exactly. People are in here with rational arguments as if these people think rationally.
And this includes pro-Israel Democratic voters (and yes, there are a lot of them, and yes, a candidate would lose their vote if they made a strong stance on Israel).
Terminally online know-it-alls with no concept of how any of this shit actually works outside of the vacuum of their theory books, telling us we’re wrong because we told them to vote.
Jesus fucking Christ, the man is himself a practicing Catholic!
Propaganda works.
deleted by creator
Absolutely correct.
Though people still need to take responsibility for their vote (or non-vote). It was not impossible or even difficult to keep up with that shit in 2024, and anyone talking about the price of eggs on Nov 5 was a fucking moron.
We had some of the highest voter turnout in US history in the last several federal elections.
Turn out rates or total turnout?
Why does America deserve to survive, as a nation built on stolen land and slavery and maintained through imperialism and colonialism?
It’s important for perspective that we remember how thin the line is between winning and losing. A very minor shift in voter turnout is all it takes to flip the game. The good news for us in this is that we don’t need to take the last election as a sign that the entire world is lost - we have every opportunity to change things. You could say it shouldn’t be this close, and you wouldn’t be wrong, but that’s also a pretty pointless whinge. Nothing worth having has ever been won without a fight, so we shouldn’t gripe about having to face one ourselves.
If it was so important to defeat the republicans, why didnt the democrats replace First-past-the-post votingg in the states they controlled? What would you give to have multiple tries to beat trump instead of one? Would you give up democratic safe states? Because democrats didnt.
I don’t know, you’d have to ask one. I didn’t vote for Democrats, I voted against fascism. Wish others had bothered to as well…
ITT:
Gotta love it. Seeing all the tankies and garbled lefties stretching before the summer sprint into the Midterms battles.
What will it be this time? Can we still call them genocide lovers? (clearly) Will one of the candidates stand out for us to paint the rest with so that we can ensure the continued boot of republicanism in the US? No worries if not - we’ll make one! Once more into the derp, comrades!
