I started at $1,400 in 2011. That went up to $3,200 by 2023 for the cheapest place in a worse part of town.
I had to move to an entirely different city. Fuck San Diego. Shitty ass city.
My last apartment was 1500 a month and I made a huge jump to buy a house with a 2500 a month mortgage. Seems crazy at first, but in 5 years that same shitty “luxury” apartment is going to cost at least 2800 a month.
Is it greedy landlords? Or is there a bigger issue at play, and landlords are the scapegoat? I imagine not all landlords are greedy, but if market price is $1,600, why wouldn’t the landlord charge $1,600?
but if market price is $1,600, why wouldn’t the landlord charge $1,600?
Because they’re not greedy. Since they all do, they’re all greedy. No exceptions.
There’s a concept of supply and demand. There should be more supply.
It’s definitely landlords. See: Rent seeking behavior.
Ok, but it’s not just landlords. It’s an entire infrastructure built on allowing this kind of thing to happen.
Are you not in America? We have whole software systems illegally manipulating the rental market prices.
This is a great example of one of those “bigger issues” I was talking about.
Even if it is a bigger issue, the landlords still hold blame for the situation. Can’t escape that
I shouldn’t have phrased it as an either or. Landlords are definitely partly to blame. Especially the ones making millions and lobbying congressmen to keep things shitty for the less wealthy.
But it’s a much bigger issue than just blaming a group of faceless people.
Because after construction costs have already been paid off everything that exceeds maintenance costs is pure profit for landlords.
Wanting to increase profis beyond the inflation rate to cover their own costs of living is greed.
You’re just saying “capitalism is greed”. Which is fine, and not wrong, but it Isn’t all that insightful and does nothing to solve any actual problems.
Fact is, supply and demand is driving these costs, not greedy landlords. If somebody wasn’t paying that rent, they wouldn’t be charging that much.
We need to prioritize building low income/affordable homes. Flood the market with supply and the price will go down.
supply and demand is driving these costs
In an abstract economy 101 sense that is true.
In a more concrete real world sense, the price is set by the landlord. Neither the supply nor the demand curve force the landlord to increase rent.We need to prioritize building low income/affordable homes. Flood the market with supply and the price will go down.
That too is somewhat true. In a profit oriented market however the lower bound of the price of rent is dictated by the building costs, the time it takes to recuperate these costs and the expected profit margin.
Assuming building costs are more or less fixed in the short term, flooding the market and reducing the price you can charge will reduce potential profits. Thus private investors are incentivized to build only so much that it does not significantly lower prices.So, the “we” that could lower prices by building more would have to be the state or some public entity that is less profit focused, not private landlords.
In an abstract economy 101 sense that is true.
In a more concrete real world sense, the price is set by the landlord. Neither the supply nor the demand curve force the landlord to increase rent.The price is set by the landlord based on what people are willing to pay. What people are willing to pay is based on what is available in the market.
This is all just supply and demand. If a landlord has an empty home for rent, and there are no other homes for rent nearby, they can charge whatever anybody is willing to pay. If there are 3 empty homes right nearby, they will need to price it in line with the others.
So, the “we” that could lower prices by building more would have to be the state or some public entity that is less profit focused, not private landlords.
Or the local/state governments need to create zones for lower/middle income homes or apartments. Or in some way they need to encourage developers to build these homes.
Capitalism alone gives us the current situation. Having a government that can counterbalance this will make it work.
The price is set by the landlord based on what people are willing to pay.
What people are willing to pay sets the upper limit of what he can charge. He is not forced to set the price at this upper limit. No amount of demand forces him to increase the price beyond cost + enough profit to live off.
Or the local/state governments need to create zones for lower/middle income homes or apartments. Or in some way they need to encourage developers to build these homes.
I’m not sure how zoning in the US works. How exactly does this reduce construction costs or increase return on investment without high rents? What incentive does this give profit oriented investors to invest in affordable housing instead of other investment options?
He is not forced to set the price at this upper limit.
It’s no different than any other product you could buy in a store. Supply and demand ultimately determines the price. Charging what it is worth is no more greedy than any other aspect of capitalism. And as I said originally, maybe there are bigger issues than just “greedy landlords” that are causing the prices to go up so much, in this case unchecked capitalism.
Zoning is just one example. Part of the problem is that someone that just bought a million dollar home doesn’t want multi family homes built across the street. That will decrease the value of their house. Zoning plays into this. There’s plenty more state/local governments can do, but are not doing.
It’s interesting that when talking about the people building homes, you totally get the profit driven mentality. Why should we expect investors to build homes that would give them less profit? Exactly, and why would you expect landlords to charge less than what the home is worth? Why would Nike charge $50 for those shoes when they can charge $200 and still sell out immediately?
There’s lots to consider and saying “greedy landlords” is the problem just ignores the entire reality.
To be clear, I am making one statement in this discussion and that is that the price is being set higher than it needs to be.
By stating that int he discussion about Landlord greed, it can be inferred that I equate this with greed.It’s no different than any other product you could buy in a store.
Saying that other businesses operate similarly does not refute my point. As you yourself pointed out, at best your argument is that all “capitalism is greed”.
It’s interesting that when talking about the people building homes, you totally get the profit driven mentality.
I never pretended not to “get” it. I’m just claiming that it’s greedy.
The way I see it there are two ways to counter my argument:
Either show that landlords have no choice and must demand the prices they do.
Or argue that wanting more than you need (usually to the detriment of others) is not greed. In that case I would be very interested where greed actually starts.
No, not all landlords are greedy but the ones who’s decisions have a large impact on the housing market are. The elderly widow who is renting out her basement to a young professional isn’t being greedy. The CEO who said this quarter he’ll return 25 million in stock buy backs instead of the regular 15 million are the greedy motherfuckers
whose
You got 2 downvotes for saying it’s not all landlords. I think that was what I was getting at.
It’s easy to point your finger and blame an imaginary person for your problems. But it’s often much more complicated than that.
There’s an infrastructure built around benefiting people with wealth that, in turn, harms people without wealth.
Why should we have a market for housing at all? Not everything needs to be a market
Also add in: education, health care, and prisons.
It’s appalling the things people are able to make money off of and still sleep well at night.
You can’t get there buying cars and phones you can’t afford either.
As you type this, people in poverty who had their state-sponsored cheap telephones so they could get callbacks for work and take care of their families, are getting notified that the program has been canceled and they have to now somehow pay for their own phones on top of every other fee and expense that increases when you’re poor.
It’s also kind of hard to not pay for your car when you live in it. Speaking from experience.
That’s truly terrible but I don’t know what that has to do with money management, which is the only point I’m trying to make. I agree on the rest of all of this.
I don’t know what that has to do with money management,
That’s because I don’t think you actually understand the conversation. We’re talking about the difficulty of poverty, you’re thinking “money management” and that REEKS of someone who’s never actually been poor. You do not get it. You should be ASKING QUESTIONS and not dispensing life-advice about money to people who have been through actual hardships you clown.
The phone that you use every day, that is required to function in daily society, and is the NUMBER ONE priority when you’re homeless, aside from maybe obtaining legal documentation?
That cell phone?
OMG, would people get off the friggin cell phone thing already. People buy all kinds of things they can’t afford. Money management would help with that. That was my only point. But if we HAVE to talk cell phones then fine. High end phones are over $1k. I just bought one for $200. To a person with little money, yeah cell phones too.
The highest priced iPhone, all max specs, is $1600.
If you get a new one every year, and trade in the previous year’s, you’ll probably get around $600 trade in value. So we’re talking $1000/year for the highest priced phone.
On a monthly basis, we’re talking $83/month. That’s like a rounding error on rent, utilities, and food, much less transportation and health care.
And, more realistically, people are buying $800 phones once every 2 years, maybe seeing something like a $600 net expense spread over 24 months, for $25/month.
Phones are like the one thing that are cheaper in 2025 than in 1985.
Hell yeah, grind away for basic necessities. Bet you’re a dream to talk to at parties.
That argument is stupid, because usually people need a reason to save for. Now rent is so high that people can barely save, and houses are so expensive that even if they do and get a credit with their staggering student debt, they’ll never be able to afford it.
So what do people do? they just enjoy the small things, because they know they’ll never have the big ones.
It’s not stupid, you’ve just stupidly misinterpreted it.
I believe you’ve mistakenly interpreted it to mean that I disagree with the premise that people have been priced out of the things we’ve come to believe are the standard of living now. That’s not what I was objecting to.
My point is that money should ALWAYS be managed. If you have no money, then, well I guess it manages itself. But if you have very little money, you shouldn’t be buying s $60k car you can’t afford. You buy a $3k car you can. Saying, I can’t afford a house so I’m going to go into massive amounts of debt to buy a car to make up for it, is the REASON you need to manage money.
Your take only gets stupider the more you try to explain it.
My point is that money should ALWAYS be managed.
Is that what you think people are talking about in here? money management?
You are truly too dense for any of this. Fortunately for you, you probably have never been touched by actual hardship and I hope that continues for you. The rest of us have had to deal with the very worst our nation can throw at us.
Ok. Troll go ahead and keep believing what you want. You will always be right.
Troll
You don’t even know how words work huh?
A troll is someone who doesn’t believe what they say they’re just trying to make you mad.
I believe STRONGLY that you’re too dense/young for this conversation and I WHOLHEARTEDLY believe that you should back out of this topic and learn more about other humans and how civics works and a host of other broad topics so you can be a better person and not get your ass kicked someday for saying some offensive shit around people who have lived a lot more than you.
This isn’t trolling, it’s actual advice, you need to get your head on better. Nobody cares about your stupid “life philosophies” about money. Put that shit on a wooden carved sign hanging over the kitchen sink, but out here in the real world, it’s far more complicated and people face a lot more problems than your stupid phrases and 2-dimensional witticisms. Lose literally fucking everything to some medical bills then get back to me, let me know how fair the system is then.
There is no such thing as a $3k car, those days are gone. If it’s going to be something that is expected to start and drive every day without major repairs that are overdue, you need to spend closer to $10k.
I know this because I recently bought my sons some used cars. Used 2006 Volvo was $6k in about as good of condition it could be for the age and miles. Still needed a bunch of little things that quickly added up. New tires ($800), PCV breather system ($120 did myself), new ignition coils ($200, did myself), brakes ($80, did myself), etc. If I wasn’t doing my own work, it would have been 3x the cost.
I also bought a 2013, nearly identical car to the 06. It needs far less, put tires on it, still has an evaporative emissions leak causing a check engine light. Not going to fix that.
I buy $1k cars sometimes, but they usually don’t run. A $3k car will be usable if you know how to turn wrenches, have space to work, and own multiple other cars for when it breaks down.
$10k barely buys a reliable car in most markets these days.
There is no such thing as a $3k car,
Yes there is …
My 2009 honda fit cost me 5k 3 years ago and has needed no repairs at all… You can go lower pretty easily…
Used car markets are highly localized markets and depending on demand in the area can fluctuate wildly, just because you got a steal on a 14 year old car 3 years ago doesn’t mean other people aren’t struggling to find an affordable used car now.
The Ratio says it’s actually pretty stupid. The percentage of people who can’t afford a home purely because they bought a $60k car is going to be absolutely minuscule, but it’s a great dog whistle for trying to lay the blame at the feet of personal responsibility.
It’s a whole lot more than you think.
It’s a whole lot less than you think.
No, it’s not. It’s not measured in the decimals of percentages, so it’s significant.
No, your take is very stupid
you just avocado toast even harder. Now you not only over generalized people, and willfully ignore the cause of the problem.
You then turn items that are essential to life in society into irresponsible luxuries. If you can’t afford to rent there is no such thing as an affordable phone/car.
The point of the post is that it’s not merely impulsive spending and you went, “nah, it is just that”
A $60k car and a $1600 cell phone are NOT essential for life and I didn’t just “nah, it is just that,” the argument. You’re just having reading comprehension problems.
Let’s drop to your level. Are you stupid enough to believe that people don’t buy things they can’t afford? If you only have even $10 to your name and you need food, you go to the most economical grocery store you can get to and maximize your purchases. You don’t walk into Starbucks and order a latte. The OP implied that because there is as larger economic problem at hand, money management isn’t an issue. They are ALWAYS both an issue.
And yes I understand that the problem is that people have to manage $10 now instead of $1000. It was not my intention to minimalize that.
You invent a scenario, and applied that to all people who struggle then? Context be dammed? Damn, sounds like a bad take.
The OP context is “older generations say that things are easy, when they had it easy. But here is an example that shows that things are not equal by a long shot.
Then you show up with a ‘if people would just stop eating avocado toast, they would have it just as easy’ ignoring the message in the OP and the systemic issues that not only make owning both your stated items a necessary component of life, but makes everything much more expensive.
A stupid take. Do struggling people own $1300 phones or expensive cars? Maybe there are some but not a lot. You fucking just dammed everyone struggling over just the possibility, inventing a character flaw on an entire class of people.
A very, very stupid take.
People who come into posts about struggles of poverty preaching “money management” are people who have never had to actually survive a day in their life and have always had an allowance or income they could depend on. I appreciate you mercilessly calling this user’s BS out.
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Nice strawman you got there, goes well with all the avocado toast I buy instead of using it for a mortgage payment.
Rent isn’t linked to inflation, it’s linked to your income. The income you are able to gain in the area goes partially to the real estate in that area.
You can’t compare it to easily imported goods from china. Who don’t work for an amount that you get paid.
Inflation occurs regardless and they are saying what today’s equivalent is for comparison because if they just said “$310” everyone would go “yeah but inflation blah blah.”
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
Guess what, having real estate in countries that had booming economies was a good investment. Having the exact same real estate quality in shithole economies would be a bad investment.
Go to Indonesia, buy a house for 20k euros.
Guess what lil bro, you’re gonna earn a lot less money 👍🏻
If there’s an economy that allows you to generate a higher net worth. MOVE THERE
Fucking hell, literal refugees can do it. But lazy Americans nah they just cry
Anyone whose response is “just move” is so profoundly blinded by the combination of a complete lack of imagination and unbelievable privilege as to not be worthy of further consideration in a discussion. Have a good one.
Idk broski, my passport is so strong I can be your neighbour tomorrow. But why would I live in a shithole like that
so brave
Idk what you answered this to 👀
Your nonsense was removed for a reason. Leave me alone
Someone who doesn’t know the difference between a passport and a visa 😒
Didn’t you hear? PASSPORT VERY STRONK
Basically where you’re from will make it easier to either travel or move. Belgian passports are pretty good. On top of that, being educated and having capital will make getting a residency quite easy.
Well then it’s good we kept the minimum wage at $7.25 which is why inflation never happened.
“In 2023, 1.1% of hourly paid workers in the USA earned the federal minimum wage or less.”
Come on broskis, you’re not paying me for economy lessons. I want you to entertain me properly
you’re not paying me for economy lessons.
And we’re still getting ripped off.
Profit incentive seems to be important. I have no problem giving misinformation if you people can’t figure things out.
There’s a great answer that you folks could use to look at this subject.
You should ask yourselves why the situation is what it is. How it relates to other areas in the world.
Do some research.
I’d do it, but you’d have to pay me and you don’t have any money 😬
Could I pay you to shut up instead? I think that’s a better use of my money.
Ok and assuming this person was probably in the 80’s where minimum wage was about half what it is now… that means the $310 should be $620… which it isn’t.
Just compare median income with median rent over the span of time in various places of the world. Make a study like that, or find one that did this. That’s useful information.
“In 2023, 1.1% of hourly paid workers in the USA earned the federal minimum wage or less.”
Okay minimum wage+50¢, woopie. It’s someone’s first apartment. For rent. This is not median levels of income. This is first quartile at best. Median income shouldn’t even be renting.
But sure, they have data on quintiles, so let’s use upper limit of the first from 1985 (~10k) and 2022 (30k) is 3x so even at that, it should be $930. https://taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/household-income-quintiles
The data is on household incomes which is less ideal than individual income but whatever.
Ignoring if it’s the same apartment from the 80s to now that’s 40 years older, and I doubt it’s been kept up to date, so it should not be worth anywhere near as much, but you know, whatever.
Have to say it is very fun watching you dismantle their hand-wavy bullshit on their terms lol
That approach should be the standard, not talking bout minimum wages when it’s clearly just a symbolic euro. Your country doesn’t have a real minimum wage so you cannot use it in calculations.
👍
Aight, now you need to figure out why this is the case. Real estate went up in value. Why is that?
Your country has a lot of capital. Like 550k euros per adult. In a country of 230 million adults or such. It’s all residing at top 1 to 10% because they live in USA for its legislature.
If you change the legislature then they’d flee to other parts of the world. Such as Ireland.
I’d say go and learn French and move to France. They have the highest taxes in the world. Bonjour Duolingo, comment çava?
All CEOs are bastards or something
Avocado toast is a big fat waste of money and I don’t take anyone seriously who buys it then complains they need more.
“Have you tried simply having more money?”
Life’s really easy when you’re born rich and white.
If you’re born rich it doesn’t matter what color you are. The difference is probably being born middle class and white, that’s probably where you reap the most benefit from systemic racism. Being born poor, doesn’t matter, the cards are forever stacked against you.
I paid $750 for a 2br 30 years ago. I pay $850 for a 3br now. I used to live outside San Francisco, now I’m in Ohio.
Not living in Ohio is worth at least $1k a month, so that tracks.
Yeah places with really low rents, there’s always a reason. But sometimes it’s still an option.
Ha, I was just being snarky. I’ve never liked the few parts of Ohio I’ve been at, but I’m guessing there are some good places there.
Honestly there are some beautiful and amazing places in Ohio and some places you don’t even want to be on accident. I have a friend who is a civil engineer, his college was funded by Youngstown on the condition he worked there for five years after he graduated. A group of friends were going on a motorcycle trip to Maine and we met at his place for the first night. I was running out of gas as we got into Youngstown but the group wanted to go to a Shell for fuel so I coasted in on fumes. While we were filling our bikes seven people were screaming at each other and it broke out into a full-out brawl. I was worried about knives or guns coming out but we were done so we just burned the hell out of that place. I would bet you can still find a house in Youngstown for under $100k.
There’s a famous Agatha Christie quote where she mentions that when she was young, she never imagined she’d be rich enough to own an automobile or poor enough to not have servants in her house. At some point, the affordability of one shot way past the other.
In my lifetime, I’ve seen huge cost increases in housing, and huge cost decreases in most technological products. When I was a kid, the normal TV size was something like 20 inches, and cost more than a month’s rent for a typical apartment. In 1990, the average rent was $447, according to this. I found a Sears catalog from 1989 with a 25 inch TV selling for $549, and a 20 inch TV for $318. It would be hard to convince someone from 1990 that one day the cheapest, shittiest apartments in the poorest neighborhoods would rent for more than a 60-inch TV per month. Or that the typical ambulance ride costs something like a month’s salary of a factory worker.
That’s the real problem with old people’s sense of money. The human tendency is to assume that all products cost the same multiple of those products prices in their early adulthood, so the luxury products of their youth remain the luxury products of today. These old people are stuck in some kind of Agatha Christie style of cost comparison, without the self awareness, and thinking that someone who owns a cell phone should be able to afford to buy a single family detached house, or couldn’t possibly be bankrupted by a single Emergency Room visit.
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Please stop blaming “old people”.
I’m not “blaming” anyone. I’m pointing out the mechanism that causes a portion of old people to be out of touch on these things. They rely on their own experiences to draw inferences that don’t actually apply to others.
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“Blame” means to attribute for some negative result. There’s no assigning fault here, just an observation, and an explanation behind that observation.
If I said “Bob is a fucking idiot,” that’s not blaming Bob for anything.
So yeah, I stand by my explanation behind the observation in OP’s screenshot: that people tend to draw on past experiences even when those experiences are no longer as relevant, or are even actively misleading. And that the phenomenon I describe (that not all prices inflate at the same rate or preserve the same ratios to each other) exacerbates the problem.
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The topic of the original posted screenshot is about inter-generational financial advice. I’m pointing out the need for intellectual humility when talking to a younger generation, by identifying a specific cognitive bias that tends to trip people up. And because this particular bias forms through experience, it tends to apply more to people with longer experience (that is, people who are older).
I thought my original comment wasn’t judgmental, and didn’t even purport to claim that all (or most) old people actually fall victim to the bias, to where they’re acting upon that bias. I’m just pointing out that it’s something to look out for, and to keep in mind, if you’re ever in the position to be giving younger generations financial advice.
Coming in here and trying to defend old people against an imagined attack is, frankly, off topic and not particularly helpful.
It is absolutely OK to assign accurate blame and this basic misunderstanding absolutely afflicts people who aren’t rich. The kind of person who bought their house when it’s cheap and thinks the $2000 they pay in property taxes per year are murderous whilst ignoring the fact that folks around them are paying $2000 a month in rent.
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I totally agree with you that this is true, but I think it’s more a problem with reactionary thinking than anything else. The way I see it, the type of thinking that leads to reactionary comments is individualistic solutions to social and economic problems because you’re not allowed to question affordability.
People of all ages pull this shit. I can’t count how many times some millennial on reddit made unwanted suggestions for a poor person’s budgeting or grocery purchases. It is obviously difficult for older folks to understand things they’re not experiencing, but I don’t think that’s the primary issue.
Ask any traitor lunatic under 40 what to do about high prices, they’ll tell you exactly.
I definitely see this a lot. Any time someone complains about the unaffordability of life you get a swarm of people prying into their personal details desperately trying to figure out how that person’s situation is their own fault.
Exactly. I never want to hear from someone making >$300,000 that I should be eating lentils all week.
The average Trump supporter basically does think you can self finance your way out of this: Electricity and a/c isn’t a necessity for living and people lived without that stuff 100 years ago. Internet isn’t a necessity and neither is having a cell phone. Owning a vehicle isn’t a necessity, simply walk or add 3+ hours a day you don’t have to your commute waiting on public transportation. The average person is always fighting weight gain, so cut food costs with controlled
starvationrationing. Deodorant, toilet paper and hygiene isn’t a necessity either. Needless to say no one deserves to be happy and you should be spending no money on video games, eating out, or anything fun. But spend money on dating and having kids because our society definitely deserves you give them more workers. Also, privacy isn’t a necessity too so if you aren’t sharing a studio apartment with 4 other people you have nothing to complain about. If this is an issue than you should have chosen to get lucky and be rich, maybe pray about it too because God knows best.This is unironically my boomer evangelical mother’s opinion.
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So someone is renting it out. It’s all supply and demand?? I don’t think landlord just leave their apartment empty unless someone comes with 1600 bucks rents.
In Denver here, it’s hard to find apartment and 2 bed 2 bath close to boulder is 2500 bucks minimum. But people still want to stay close to boulder rather than living on cheaper town.
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Saving money on food to buy a guillotine is personal finance.
Trade and barter with your fellow proletariat and create the tools.
Have tools, need wood.
Have wood, need hands. Sounds like we have a start!
Now kiss. Get your hands on their wood.
We have scrapyards and bulk pickup. Reuse materials and save some dough
Maybe there is a financing plan in installments. Klarna or something…
