I don’t have up to date knowledge about this American stuff and what is happening but I’d like my gov to deport and send somewhere far away certain criminals. Why not send all convicted rapists and pedophiles to some desert. I think it should be nationality agnostic thing
The way this works is they make you feel so afraid of criminals that you want someone cruel in power to protect you from them.
Problem is they need to keep you afraid and keep on being cruel to maintain power. So they will constantly be adding groups of people to the list. The eventual outcome is you may be added to the list and sent to a gulag. But maybe if you’re lucky you won’t and you merely live in fear that your government will execute it’s cruelty on you if you ever speak out.
Living in a system dominated by fear and cruelty isn’t how I want to live. Why do you want to live that way?
75% of the people sent to CECOT from the US have no criminal record and might be completely innocent. It could be you, someone you know, or someone you might be able to scrounge up empathy for.
I’m fine with criminals being held in a prison in my own country and still having human rights no matter what crime they committed because I haven’t been made to be afraid of criminals. They’re the criminals that did horrific things to people, I don’t feel the need to do horrific things to criminals (which would make me the same as them) because I’m afraid.
I’m going to give you the benefit of doubt here and assume you just don’t know what’s going on, but an innocent man was sent to El Salvador without due process.
Do you agree this is the right thing to do? Because THAT is the subject being discussed.
Yes and they used to have that in the U.S. as well, but surprise surprise! If you put an authoritarian in power, who delights in being cruel and punishing people, you tend to lose some of those precious rights.
Well, I didn’t vote for anyone in the U.S. since I don’t live there.
But my point is, non-authoritarians wouldn’t even suggest sending their own citizens to foreign prisons/camps. It’s cruel and unnecessary and it doesn’t solve the root of any issues. It’s just offloading your problems onto someone else.
Non authoritarians could absolutely do it if they pitched it during election campaign. There is nothing undemocratic about it if majority votes for it.
The problem with the prison system here in the U.S. is that in a majority of states the counties’ budget relies on income from maxed out prisons. It’s a for-profit system, but there are very few private prisons compared to public prisons. The private prisons are even MORE incentivized to max out their population.
I don’t like the idea of non-reform prisons because they don’t even give someone a chance to try to recognize what they did was wrong and be able to change themselves in a meaningful way. Not to say that it happens in “reform” prisons here, but it’s at least a chance.
The U.S. wouldn’t have such a huge prison population if it wasn’t essentially for-profit and if the “War on Drugs” didn’t happen, among other things.
But the issue right now isn’t even what you’re talking about. The U.S. is grabbing “illegal immigrants” off the street regardless of immigration status now and sending them to a prison in El Salvador. They are trying to declare all of these people “dead” in the Social Security “Death Master File” which essentially locks these people out of any bank accounts, credit, jobs, etc so they self-deport before being disappeared.
Once they have all “illegal” immigrants out of the country, then they will focus on what Elon Musk calls “parasites”: people on disability or any kind of government assistance because these people (including myself) are seen as a drain on the federal government and since Trump can’t stop the funding to these agencies he’s going through the back door and looking for “fraud” but recognize that “mistakes will be made” thus causing all kinds of problems for legal U.S. citizens.
Then when he’s done with them, he’ll move on to people who don’t identify with the gender they were born as. Technically he’s already making their lives hell by doing things like requiring all government documents to show the gender a person was born as, not what they identify as, regardless if any transitions were made or not. For those who have already transitioned they are kinda of in limbo now because their documentation states something that they essentially aren’t.
Even if I agreed with the idea of non-reform prisons, there have been zero trials held to prove they were actually criminals. We aren’t sending convicted rapists to the desert, we’re sending people to a foreign prison, based on nothing but allegations.
I just wanted to make sure you understood that 'Murica can’t be used as an example of your ideals, because it sorta sounded like you were trying to say you were in favor of what’s going on.
Rehabilitation based prisons are more effective than punitive prisons anyways, so it becomes very difficult to argue that inhumane prisons are good for anything. I’m a victim, and don’t believe my rapist should be tortured. If we had such a system, I would probably be even less inclined to report, because I don’t think anybody deserves this pain, not even the people who perpetuate it.
I know it sounds like this, I think it is great to get more replies and have some interesting discussion. I like to hear what you say
If I said only the current stance on things in community that would be super boring and lead to nowhere and now I hear your interesting point of view
Well I think if it was me I would kill but I don’t know of course. I feel it would be the last straw to actually do actual murder driven by pure emotions. I am not sure if it would bring respite.
I understand your point of view but I think most of us aren’t strong enough to think the way you do. I don’t think I would ever know peace again without seeing blood of the animal that did it in such case. I am just a human, not some kind of perfect being but I admire you.
Maybe one day I will be as strong as you but currently I am merely a flawed human
Besides I can’t even explain it but I have a feeling that it would have to happen. as if some threads woven. I could not want it, I could hate to do it, be disgusted with doing it but I would still have to. It just would HAVE TO happen if you understand me.
I would truly hate to do it but I would have no choice because that’s what has to happen if another certain thing happens. Such is fate like threads woven and connected. It’s not even revenge or seeking peace. It’s just that if A then B MUST happen and I don’t even have a choice. It just HAS TO be done
I am not sure why some people seem to have more choice and ability on this and others don’t but I believe I am in the latter as I already experienced this sort of inevitable causality and I hated everything in it and yet I know that I would have to bend to it again as if I was only a pawn
Some of us are strong enough to break the cycle of violence. Great people, we should have more of them. You are much better person than me but I am afraid you may be in the minority.
I myself have problems staying sane and out of jail without even such events as being raped and I bet there’s a lot of similar people especially in America.
Killing another person is a terrible thing to do, horrific and messy and all kinds of revolting but it would have to be done if the event that precluded it would occur so to say. I just hope that rape isn’t included in the threads of my story because I am not someone who could ever enjoy or derive satisfaction from murder and it would be truly grim thing to plan and get it going
Let’s now return to the sunny and pleasant present day. There is no point in mulling over such things
because torturing people is evil and pointless.
apparently your problem is sexual offenses, which is odd because i’d much rather be raped then murdered or tortured….
at any rate:
how many innocent people are convicted wrongly?
(answer: a lot, but an unknowable amount… false confession is a big thing too).
how many people accused of rape would allow themselves to be arrested without fighting to the death?
(answer: none of them).
how many rapists would just go ahead and murder their victim, since the consequences of murder and rape are the same, and might as well eliminate the witness?
(all of them, now you’ve increased murder and decreased rape convictions).
how many of these people you want to torture to death in some foreign desert are just pure evil and beyond and rehabilitation or redemption?
(most of them are not pure psychopaths, but were raised in violent environments… everyone has potential to grow and change, even a rapist or pedophile… there are many such stories of people finding morality, having remorse, and spending the rest of their lives trying to improve the world).
what about recidivism? don’t all of these violent people keep reoffending?
(an incredibly complex problem, but prisons tend to not rehabilitate and just end up criminal college, making people worse, and loss of job opportunities on the outside makes crime more likely than before they went in…).
many many many societies have tried killing criminals, cutting off hands, branding them, etc… it doesn’t reduce crime or eliminate a crime gene, it makes criminals much much worse….
if i’m going to get my hands cut off for stealing bread but i’ll starve to death if i don’t get it, i will still steal it and kill anyone that tries to catch me….
tl;dr if you treat humans like animals, you will make them act more like animals….
and even discounting aaaalll of that, why is it better to ship them to another country to imprison them? we have prisons here….
the one and ONLY reason to do that is to deny them their human rights, constitutional rights, and ability to appeal….
To be honest I am not so sure that rape is better than murder or torture. Not sure if I wouldn’t actually kill myself afterwards and believe me I am very mentally resistant person
Quick death isn’t the most horrible thing under the sun, pain is pain rape or torture but rape leaves holes in the soul that will never heal. It destroys you as a person.
On the outside you may still appear to walk, talk and eat but inside everything is dead, merely a shell remains. It is a death of sorts but without respite of nothingness
Somehow I doubt the desert will put up a good defense to this invasion to be honest. I don’t know might be wrong, maybe the dromedaries will do napalm strikes to avenge the ruffled dunes
I guess so, it doesn’t matter what race would be the majority of destination inhabitants as long as it is hard to come back. Just send them away to the moon if that sounds better for ya
Or to mars
Not a novel idea I guess. That’s how modern Australia came to be
I don’t have up to date knowledge about this American stuff and what is happening but I’d like my gov to deport and send somewhere far away certain criminals. Why not send all convicted rapists and pedophiles to some desert. I think it should be nationality agnostic thing
The way this works is they make you feel so afraid of criminals that you want someone cruel in power to protect you from them.
Problem is they need to keep you afraid and keep on being cruel to maintain power. So they will constantly be adding groups of people to the list. The eventual outcome is you may be added to the list and sent to a gulag. But maybe if you’re lucky you won’t and you merely live in fear that your government will execute it’s cruelty on you if you ever speak out.
Living in a system dominated by fear and cruelty isn’t how I want to live. Why do you want to live that way?
I don’t know what you are talking about. There is no cruelty or fear. We just send the rapists and pedos in space or elsewhere. Somewhere far away
Is that causing you to tremble
The person sent was not charged with any crimes.
75% of the people sent to CECOT from the US have no criminal record and might be completely innocent. It could be you, someone you know, or someone you might be able to scrounge up empathy for.
I’m not the one living in fear, you are.
I’m fine with criminals being held in a prison in my own country and still having human rights no matter what crime they committed because I haven’t been made to be afraid of criminals. They’re the criminals that did horrific things to people, I don’t feel the need to do horrific things to criminals (which would make me the same as them) because I’m afraid.
I vote we send you first.
I didn’t commit any serious offences. We only should send precise group of offenders
So said by everyone unjustly imprisoned. Without due process, how would we know if that’s true? May what you wish upon others happen to you first.
And this man that was sent to El Salvador. What “precise group of offenders” did he belong to again?
That’s why you should send prisoners
Again, what did he do? Why should he be a prisoner?
Who? I don’t even know who are you talking about.
I am saying that we should send prisoners that are convicted for some offences far away
I’m going to give you the benefit of doubt here and assume you just don’t know what’s going on, but an innocent man was sent to El Salvador without due process.
Do you agree this is the right thing to do? Because THAT is the subject being discussed.
That isn’t the subject that I discuss here
And when a government gets to decide who goes and who doesn’t without due process….
What then?
They can’t do that here, you have generally some rights before convicted
You haven’t been paying attention lately, have you?
As I said not really. What I am talking about is semi related
It’s a general trend lately around the world to send immigrant prisoners away but I argue about making it nationality agnostic
Why should we only send away immigrant offenders when we can send all offenders somewhere?
This way we can avoid racism accusations
Yes and they used to have that in the U.S. as well, but surprise surprise! If you put an authoritarian in power, who delights in being cruel and punishing people, you tend to lose some of those precious rights.
Then maybe you shouldn’t vote on such candidate. It’s hard to protect every single law from being twisted when you elect some kind of
Well, I didn’t vote for anyone in the U.S. since I don’t live there.
But my point is, non-authoritarians wouldn’t even suggest sending their own citizens to foreign prisons/camps. It’s cruel and unnecessary and it doesn’t solve the root of any issues. It’s just offloading your problems onto someone else.
Non authoritarians could absolutely do it if they pitched it during election campaign. There is nothing undemocratic about it if majority votes for it.
Some kind of?
Hard to pick a fitting word. I think it is a category on its own
The problem with the prison system here in the U.S. is that in a majority of states the counties’ budget relies on income from maxed out prisons. It’s a for-profit system, but there are very few private prisons compared to public prisons. The private prisons are even MORE incentivized to max out their population.
I don’t like the idea of non-reform prisons because they don’t even give someone a chance to try to recognize what they did was wrong and be able to change themselves in a meaningful way. Not to say that it happens in “reform” prisons here, but it’s at least a chance.
The U.S. wouldn’t have such a huge prison population if it wasn’t essentially for-profit and if the “War on Drugs” didn’t happen, among other things.
But the issue right now isn’t even what you’re talking about. The U.S. is grabbing “illegal immigrants” off the street regardless of immigration status now and sending them to a prison in El Salvador. They are trying to declare all of these people “dead” in the Social Security “Death Master File” which essentially locks these people out of any bank accounts, credit, jobs, etc so they self-deport before being disappeared.
Once they have all “illegal” immigrants out of the country, then they will focus on what Elon Musk calls “parasites”: people on disability or any kind of government assistance because these people (including myself) are seen as a drain on the federal government and since Trump can’t stop the funding to these agencies he’s going through the back door and looking for “fraud” but recognize that “mistakes will be made” thus causing all kinds of problems for legal U.S. citizens.
Then when he’s done with them, he’ll move on to people who don’t identify with the gender they were born as. Technically he’s already making their lives hell by doing things like requiring all government documents to show the gender a person was born as, not what they identify as, regardless if any transitions were made or not. For those who have already transitioned they are kinda of in limbo now because their documentation states something that they essentially aren’t.
You don’t seem to have up to date knowledge, period.
Even if I agreed with the idea of non-reform prisons, there have been zero trials held to prove they were actually criminals. We aren’t sending convicted rapists to the desert, we’re sending people to a foreign prison, based on nothing but allegations.
Yeah I heard something about amurica, I was just saying unrelated to what is going on I think it isn’t the worst idea what I presented
It doesn’t surprise me that American execution of this idea is tabarded
I just wanted to make sure you understood that 'Murica can’t be used as an example of your ideals, because it sorta sounded like you were trying to say you were in favor of what’s going on.
Rehabilitation based prisons are more effective than punitive prisons anyways, so it becomes very difficult to argue that inhumane prisons are good for anything. I’m a victim, and don’t believe my rapist should be tortured. If we had such a system, I would probably be even less inclined to report, because I don’t think anybody deserves this pain, not even the people who perpetuate it.
I know it sounds like this, I think it is great to get more replies and have some interesting discussion. I like to hear what you say
If I said only the current stance on things in community that would be super boring and lead to nowhere and now I hear your interesting point of view
Well I think if it was me I would kill but I don’t know of course. I feel it would be the last straw to actually do actual murder driven by pure emotions. I am not sure if it would bring respite.
I understand your point of view but I think most of us aren’t strong enough to think the way you do. I don’t think I would ever know peace again without seeing blood of the animal that did it in such case. I am just a human, not some kind of perfect being but I admire you.
Maybe one day I will be as strong as you but currently I am merely a flawed human
Besides I can’t even explain it but I have a feeling that it would have to happen. as if some threads woven. I could not want it, I could hate to do it, be disgusted with doing it but I would still have to. It just would HAVE TO happen if you understand me.
I would truly hate to do it but I would have no choice because that’s what has to happen if another certain thing happens. Such is fate like threads woven and connected. It’s not even revenge or seeking peace. It’s just that if A then B MUST happen and I don’t even have a choice. It just HAS TO be done
I am not sure why some people seem to have more choice and ability on this and others don’t but I believe I am in the latter as I already experienced this sort of inevitable causality and I hated everything in it and yet I know that I would have to bend to it again as if I was only a pawn
Some of us are strong enough to break the cycle of violence. Great people, we should have more of them. You are much better person than me but I am afraid you may be in the minority.
I myself have problems staying sane and out of jail without even such events as being raped and I bet there’s a lot of similar people especially in America.
Killing another person is a terrible thing to do, horrific and messy and all kinds of revolting but it would have to be done if the event that precluded it would occur so to say. I just hope that rape isn’t included in the threads of my story because I am not someone who could ever enjoy or derive satisfaction from murder and it would be truly grim thing to plan and get it going
Let’s now return to the sunny and pleasant present day. There is no point in mulling over such things
because torturing people is evil and pointless.
apparently your problem is sexual offenses, which is odd because i’d much rather be raped then murdered or tortured….
at any rate:
how many innocent people are convicted wrongly?
(answer: a lot, but an unknowable amount… false confession is a big thing too).
how many people accused of rape would allow themselves to be arrested without fighting to the death?
(answer: none of them).
how many rapists would just go ahead and murder their victim, since the consequences of murder and rape are the same, and might as well eliminate the witness?
(all of them, now you’ve increased murder and decreased rape convictions).
how many of these people you want to torture to death in some foreign desert are just pure evil and beyond and rehabilitation or redemption?
(most of them are not pure psychopaths, but were raised in violent environments… everyone has potential to grow and change, even a rapist or pedophile… there are many such stories of people finding morality, having remorse, and spending the rest of their lives trying to improve the world).
what about recidivism? don’t all of these violent people keep reoffending?
(an incredibly complex problem, but prisons tend to not rehabilitate and just end up criminal college, making people worse, and loss of job opportunities on the outside makes crime more likely than before they went in…).
many many many societies have tried killing criminals, cutting off hands, branding them, etc… it doesn’t reduce crime or eliminate a crime gene, it makes criminals much much worse….
if i’m going to get my hands cut off for stealing bread but i’ll starve to death if i don’t get it, i will still steal it and kill anyone that tries to catch me….
tl;dr if you treat humans like animals, you will make them act more like animals….
and even discounting aaaalll of that, why is it better to ship them to another country to imprison them? we have prisons here….
the one and ONLY reason to do that is to deny them their human rights, constitutional rights, and ability to appeal….
To be honest I am not so sure that rape is better than murder or torture. Not sure if I wouldn’t actually kill myself afterwards and believe me I am very mentally resistant person
Quick death isn’t the most horrible thing under the sun, pain is pain rape or torture but rape leaves holes in the soul that will never heal. It destroys you as a person.
On the outside you may still appear to walk, talk and eat but inside everything is dead, merely a shell remains. It is a death of sorts but without respite of nothingness
If it’s not your desert, that’s called an invasion
If it is your desert, you just sent people you’ve made your nation responsible for the care of into an area that makes it difficult to care for them.
Somehow I doubt the desert will put up a good defense to this invasion to be honest. I don’t know might be wrong, maybe the dromedaries will do napalm strikes to avenge the ruffled dunes
So just to be clear the racist thing you have in mind is shipping prisoners to northern Africa or western Australia?
I guess so, it doesn’t matter what race would be the majority of destination inhabitants as long as it is hard to come back. Just send them away to the moon if that sounds better for ya
Or to mars
Not a novel idea I guess. That’s how modern Australia came to be