Year of the Linux Desktop Fediverse!
Side note, DAE find calling them “normies” kinda icky? It’s like straight outta 4chan
Even worse; they flood the internet with „china actually kinda based“ posts. Orientalism is back and nothing changed
In art history, literature and cultural studies, Orientalism is the imitation or depiction of aspects of the Eastern world (or “Orient”) by writers, designers, and artists from the Western world. Orientalist painting, particularly of the Middle East,[1] was one of the many specialties of 19th-century academic art, and Western literature was influenced by a similar interest in Oriental themes.
Critical studies
Edward Said
In his book Orientalism (1978), cultural critic Edward Said redefines the term Orientalism to describe a pervasive Western tradition—academic and artistic—of prejudiced outsider-interpretations of the Eastern world, which was shaped by the cultural attitudes of European imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries.[20] The thesis of Orientalism develops Antonio Gramsci’s theory of cultural hegemony, and Michel Foucault’s theorisation of discourse (the knowledge-power relation) to criticise the scholarly tradition of Oriental studies. Said criticised contemporary scholars who perpetuated the tradition of outsider-interpretation of Arabo-Islamic cultures, especially Bernard Lewis and Fouad Ajami.[21][22] Furthermore, Said said that “The idea of representation is a theatrical one: the Orient is the stage on which the whole East is confined”,[23] and that the subject of learned Orientalists “is not so much the East itself as the East made known, and therefore less fearsome, to the Western reading public”.[24]
In the academy, the book Orientalism (1978) became a foundational text of post-colonial cultural studies.[22] The analyses in Said’s works are of Orientalism in European literature, especially French literature, and do not analyse visual art and Orientalist painting. In that vein, the art historian Linda Nochlin applied Said’s methods of critical analysis to art, “with uneven results”.[25] Other scholars see Orientalist paintings as depicting a myth and a fantasy that did not often correlate with reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism
Yeah i dont think that people saying “China is kinda based” are trying to appropriate chinese culture from the perspective of a culturally and racially superior western hegemonial empire. Quite to the contrary actually.
Culturally and racially superior?
The self impression of the imperial empires at the time. The kind of thinking that justified genocides, slavery and robbery with “but we bring them culture”
In terms of ethics and culture i would say most places in the world to have been far better developed than European imperialists.
I swear some people think Westerners expressing any interest in anything Asian at all ever, or thinking an Asian country does something better than their own, is orientalism.
What is the one on the left anyway?
Fedivserse logo, thats lemmy, mastodon, sharkey, mbin and all the other decentralised social medias.
While I like the logo, I also realize that the logo also evokes blind hatred from people. Unfortunately, you only have to mention the color scheme, which for many is like a declaration of war. Sick world
It’s just colors, if colors evoke blind hatred in someone, I likely wouldn’t want them around me anyways. It looks to me like an interlinked web of different nodes. Which seems to be a pretty accurate representation of the hosting and federations.
Well, blind, stupid hatred from e.g. anti-woke, MAGA or the growing right-wingers all over the West. Just need to have as many colors as a rainbow and there is the connection to LGBTQA+ with said blind hatred. Now of course you can say you don’t want these people around you. But unfortunately there are more of them and they are taking over the leadership of the countries in the West.
If someone is so fragile that the colors of a logo tangentially related to a service make them believe the service is woke, then I really don’t care about getting them to adopt it. It’s also something like a pentagram. I don’t care if this scares evangelicals. Both of these are such insane stretches that it would be foolish to accommodate them.
Is the sky woke? There’s a rainbow in it.
I like rainbows. I don’t know what all woke is because it feels like it’s everything republicans/MAGA/right-wing/anti-democratic/etc. use to defame something and direct hate towards it anyway. But as I said, it’s just a feeling… I don’t know what it’s really about.
it feels like it’s everything republicans/MAGA/right-wing/anti-democratic/etc. use to defame something and direct hate towards it anyway.
That’s exactly what it is.
Sometimes
A lot of people are going to rednote as a show of protest:
- these people have had their data mined since they were babies, they’ve been taught by the market since birth that their data isn’t something they should value
- then they’re told that it’s bad that these other people can access their data, with no explanation as to why it’s any different
- while at the same time being told that it’s totally fine for the folks who are already mining your data to sell it to the people who shouldn’t have your data
So they’re basically saying “you’re lying, and your explanation contradicts your previous behavior, so I’m gonna do the exact opposite of what you want”
Again because they don’t actually care about their dataYou’re expecting Zoomers and Gen Alpha irreversibly addicted to short-form video content, which has resulted in an attention span that doesn’t extend past 30 seconds, to READ?
My kids use a plethora of short-form video apps, and they also read novels, in addition to hobbies like cooking, knitting, crocheting, mechanical work, etc.
Maybe it’s just your kids.
You know what, I shouldn’t comment before I eat breakfast. You’re fine, I hope you have a very nice day.
Thanks for encouraging your kids to have diverse interests and hobbies instead of letting a glowing screen raise them. I don’t have children but if I did I would hope to achieve the same for them.
There are plenty of kids who aren’t interested at all in the activities yours are.
Maybe your kids are the exception.
(Not all of us, please. I’m 18 - and I love to read - and that’s how I’m even a media and middleware loving nerdy programmer, and that’s how I’m here!!! I’m not even from a developed nation…)
(…I’ve been recommended by YouTube, videos of gen-alpha peeps talking about and using GNU-Linux OSs passionately, even!)
No, not all of you! Or any other group, for that matter. Although I could certainly be wrong, I don’t think the comment is a blanket statement regarding the whole of the two generations, but rather just the portion of the demographic specifically mentioned, which certainly does exist.
Many people older than those two specific generations don’t fit into the “younger generations dumb!” trope that gets highlighted by another commonly referenced subset, so I’d suggest not using that group as a measurement for all older generations. I hope that makes sense.
Ignorant people have a tendency to be loud to compensate for their ignorance, and shouldn’t be used to define those with more nuance.
Ok boomer
Your comment is another proof that Lemmy/Fediverse is lacking young people
More or less is proving my point no?
I find this mentality disgusting. “Young people bad!”
Is the cute little monster thing eating powdered sugar with his whole face?
Is this old? Is this what old feels like?
Yeah, people not recognizing Elmo is a special kind of pain.
Surprise! Not everyone has watched Sesame Street! Either because it wasn’t their thing or it wasn’t in their region! So please just stop assuming.
Unfortunately, Fediverse apps still have a lot of UX issues compared to their mainstream alternatives. Those will need to be smoothed over for mainstream adoption to take root.
They’re attractive to the tech inclined who are comfortable working around what, to them, is minor clunkiness. Mainstream users have shorter attention spans and are more likely to move on when there’s friction.
Far as the meme is concerned, the only Fediverse equivalent is Loops which is still in closed beta.
Except Voyager app (or webapp) that shits ready for the masses
Feels 100% like the Apollo app for redit, plus blocked features of Apollo are free in voyager
Agreed, the Voyager app for lemmy is the GOAT.
I don’t know, though. I’m someone who gave up on Linux Mint because I just couldn’t get it to work properly. I wouldn’t say I’m tech inclined. I used a button phone until 2022. I only got a smartphone because my sim stopped working with my Nokia. The only issue I had with Lemmy was the sign up (it was during the reddit exodus so the sign ups weren’t going through, but I’m glad cos I nearly joined ml).
Mastodon was easy as heck to join. I got a friend to sign up, no issues, and he has no idea what the fediverse even is.
UX issues
Easiest way to sum up Facebook
Not with their onboarding.
(Also, familiarity is a kind of UX lubricant, all on its own)
we love our chinese/american overlords!
Fediverse fanboys when they realise that their obscure and socially complex software isn’t know by many people specially outside of the tech bubble, and that it’s not the same experiences that they will get with their known platforms:
The obscurity and social complexity is the whole reason I’m here haha. My hope is that even if/when fedi apps become the standard, we’ll still have ways to curate ourselves into small corners as that’s just way nicer.
known platforms
I seriously doubt that people ‘knew’ about some random app that isn’t even translated all the way.
If the app was elevated as a point of protest, then people only knew about it because it went viral recently.
Lemmy was also briefly elevated during the Reddit exodus.
Best thing that happened recently. Wonderful wonderful chaos, when the best plans of authoritarian politicians go awry. And I mean both Chinese and American politicians.
I don’t see how this is authoritarian, Bytedance’s bad intentions are clear. They could make money from selling the app, keep making money from it in a stock sale but yet they’d rather have 0 dollars than relinquish control of their brainrot engine. It’s clear that the CCP values it more as a cultural weapon than as a product.
Why sell it, when they can just give trump a paycheck under the table to keep it going?
I swear on the graves of my ancestors, they script this shit to keep everyone guessing at what the real explanation is. Everyone finds a way to fit it into their own understanding of how the world works. Same thing with the ceasefire agreement. Democrats understand it one way, Republicans understand it another way, outsiders understand it a third (or fourth or fifth), more skeptical way.
A forced sale guarantees ByteDance gets a fire sale price. If there’s any way forward that allows them to sell not-under-duress, there’s a chance for far more upside.
That works even for pure economics game theory, aside from wanting to continue in what they built on principle/commitment/interest in the project.
Would Zuck give up Facebook for the right price? Would he give it up for a highly discounted price of a rush sale?
Yes he would if the option is making 0 dollars. Which is the option Bytedance faces, losing one of their biggest most profitable markets when they could get a big bag or do a stock sale and continue to profit from its growth.
Also I’d like to remind you, the US is not the only country looking to ban TikTok, other western countries are eyeing it as well.
For me their malicious intentions are transparent. Hell this bill passed with full bipartisan support after congress saw the intel acquired by the alphabet agencies proving as much. When was the last that happened?
But that’s clearly not the only option. They assumed the public backlash would be in their favor and it was. Now they get to keep on making money, which is the best outcome for them.
I agree. Although the method of resolution could vary widely, depending on the party in power, if the US masses keep jumping from foreign platform to foreign platform.
I recently listened to Paul Frazee talk about Bluesky on the Software Engineering Radio podcast and it struck me that one thing they got right was looking at social media like a search engine looks at the web, instead of like a centralized platform(Facebook) and instead of like a federated network of platforms(fediverse).
If your feed is understood to be just the search results you see, then users can understand that their algorithm is something they need to work on in the same vein that they change their search parameters on Google or Bing or other search engines.
you don’t have access to the algorithm though.
No, but you have access to the protocol so you write your own algorithm.
Then it is your algorithm, using the common protocol, that goes out and retrieves search results for your feed.
Likewise, 3rd party corporations can write their own algorithms on the protocol and everyone can choose which algorithms fill their personal feed with search results - turning them on or off on a whim, at a personalized level.
Perfect meme to describe what’s happening. Yes, fedi has some UX issues and is not very beginner friendly.
But also, people have gotten so used to being spoonfed content from an algorithm that tells them what they want to see that they can’t handle the prospect of “build your own algorithm”
Corpo-curated-content is a hard drug and most people don’t realize that they have an addiction.
Tiktok exposes me to all kinds of viewpoints I’d never have even thought to search for.
Lemmy is a circle jerk by comparison.When you say “build your own algorithm” what you really mean is “decide who is allowed in my echo chamber, and what is the sort order of the content from those people”. You can do that on Tiktok too, it’s called the “following” feed, smh.
You deserve an award for telling the truth
I’d love to see the list of communities followed by each of the people who downvoted me. I have some pretty strong suspicions about what they’d look like.
The advantages most of us see in the Fediverse (lack of corporate control, low algorithm interference) are seen by most normal users as either of little importance, or actively detrimental. The Fediverse requires you engage with it to cultivate a feed that gives you what you’re interested in. But the people fleeing to Rednote want a strong algorithm that feeds them what they want, and they don’t mind influence games being played by the algorithm in exchange for this convenience.
I mean, a software could easily do it they just don’t.
Personally, I think there’s room in the Fediverse for an app with a “strong algorithm” provided it’s completely open ofc.
My biggest issue with algorithms isn’t the fact they exist, but that they’re proprietary black boxes so no one truly knows how it’s being manipulated
We should be able to select different fully open source algorithms from a drop down menu, and load custom ones from fediversealgorithmmenuwithdescriptions dot org, including “no algorithm”.
I assume that’s like a billion hours of work, but, goals.
When you sort your feed by hot vs top vs new, that’s already what you’re doing kinda.
But the platform has to have the data to support the algorithm, so you can’t just “load in” whatever algorithm you want. Besides, that sounds like a security nightmare for the platform lol
I mean, with the fediscovery project, people can make centralised applications from fediverse data (people who opt in) this makes indexing and other stuff that works better centralised possible.
If I understand correctly, that only works with data publicly available (or at least available to 3rd party instances). But there are going to be metrics that fediverse platforms simply don’t make public or even track.
for example: i dont imagine that peertube (or even loops) makes public who viewed which videos, when, for how long. and it’d be a huge privacy issue if they did. Even tracking things like who-liked-what are the kinds of things that a 3rd party probably shouldn’t be able to just check.
without these kinds of insights, it’d be hard to make a good recommendation algorithm, because you can’t really tell how an individual is interacting with content.
A client could be made on one, that tracks those things, and then suggests videos from that.
I don’t think it could.
The client doesn’t have access to all the videos, it’ll have to query the (distributed???) platform to find matching videos.
And the platform is gonna need to serve up some kind of metadata for the client to track (are hashtags enough???)
And the platform is gonna need to be keeping stats on the videos for the client to match against
And what would that query even look like? A gargantuan weighted map of hashtags? I can’t imagine hashtags alone would be enough.
“No algorithm” would load nothing at all. Everything is an “algorithm,” including listing all posts in chronological order.
Wanting “no algorithm” is like wanting food with “no chemicals” in it and not realizing that carbs, fats, proteins, etc. are “chemicals.”
Only eating noble gases.
Noble gases are chemicals too, damn it!
The only thing that isn’t “chemicals” is literally just vacuum.
Only a dehydrogen monoxide addict will say shit like that!
But when someone says they want no chemicals in their food, you know exactly what they mean. This is just being a bit pedantic, I think.
Exactly. Every time I see someone post that “akshully, chronological order is also an algorithm” (which I see a lot), it makes me think of the old “what you are calling Linux is akshully GNU/Linux” thing. Please people, let that go.
Because you know perfectly well that when we talk about “algorithms” we’re specifically referring to corporate social media manipulative algorithms designed to increase engagement, NOT a simple sort of posts by date or number of upvotes. mkay?
It’s a “domain expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ as a technical term from their domain of expertise” vs “non-expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ with the meaning popularised by the Media in the last couple of years”.
Both are right.
But when a non-expert uses the term, its quite clear what they mean by it.
Did someone call for me???
Fwiw Tiktok apparently just open sourced their algorithm a week or so ago.
I wonder if loops will provide it as an option
Do you have a link? I can’t find it.
I was mistaken, it was not opensourced - there was a whitepaper on a recommendation system from tiktok’s parent company bytedance, and everyone just assumed it was the tiktok recommendation algorithm when it was published.
Remember when Musk took over Twitter and “open sourced” the algorithm, although it was impossible to reconstruct anything from what was given, and contained clear signs of being edited and incriminating details suggesting content categorization and prioritization?
What I really want to see is Facebook’s algorithm, because it seems to just produce a neverending stream of alt-right bullshit.
Algorithm control is what AT Proto offers that fediverse doesn’t
Well, its definetely possible on activitypub. Every “app” built on the atprotocol takes data from a relay’s firehose and then indexes it and does all the algorithm stuff. There is a project (https://www.fediscovery.org/) that will let people build centralised apps with fediverse data. Although, I could just make an algorithm that looks for keywords a user may be interested in, in the posts database and show it to them, it just wouldn’t have every post to its disposal.
Hey thanks for the correction - my mistake!
Funny enough, that’s also the reason that democracy is always in the brink of collapse.
Recommendation engines aren’t the biggest issue. People will figure out how to fins what they want, and be generally happy with that, if looking is easy enough.
The big issue is that “join the fediverse” is a really, really shitty and incomplete recommendation. It’s like “join the blogosphere!”
And “join Mastodon” or “join Lemmy” is bad, too. It’s like asking them to “join Joomla”.
You need to point people to the specific website they should join, and that website has to already have what they’re looking for. People aren’t interested in building something.
They just want to consume.
You know, if this rednote thing really takes off, I don’t think I can believe the whole “fediverse is too complicated” thing anymore. People are moving to an app that isn’t even fully in English. That’s WAY more complicated than picking a random instance out of a list (or more likely, just going to the one big one). I’m getting to where I think the vast majority of people just click on what’s advertised no matter how stupid it is, and without ads (not people spreading things by word of mouth, I mean actual “ooh, shiny” ads) mainstream uptake of the fediverse will never happen. Good luck outspending the big corps on that.
Might be for the best anyway. The type of people who respond to ads probably aren’t particularly fun to engage with.
Just made an account on Xiaohongshu and saw literally no Chinese during the process other than the logo. The first Chinese I saw were the titles of videos.
This was the first I saw. But by then, my account is already made and I can already see and enjoy content. I don’t think it’s as much of a barrier as you believe it is.
I recommend you to censor your name
Oh shit, thanks for the heads up! But this is not my real name. I got it as a captcha years ago and thought it was funny, so it’s just some random email address I have as a backup. I’ve still removed it for good measure.
They chose the app specifically because its chinese, they still have every other tiktok clone, like clapper (lol), snapchat spotlight, youtube shorts and instagram reels.
Whatever the reason, navigating that is still more complicated than navigating Lemmy or Mastodon
It’s mire simple because they have actual designers that design the app to users to use, so it’s not that much difficult to navigate, with all the icons and familiar patterns.
Yeah, it’s amazing the things you can do with UX when your platform takes in enough money that you can support a UI/UX team.
don’t ask where that money came from or why kthx(some oss projects outright decline help from actual designers by the way)
I agree, but thats why they chose it.
Don’t get too high and mighty, your doom scrolling like everyone else.
I mean, I’ve got definite FOMO, but I generally don’t feel the need to continuously search for new content. If the comms in my feed are quiet, that’s nearly a good thing.
I actually enjoy not having a strong algorithm here. This way I can spend as little as possible on my only social media app that I use.
It would be nice if the Fediverse (or some apps like Sync) had a strong algorithm that you can choose to activate if you like, once you install the app.
And could pick from different algorithms, one big barrier to entry for new users is the UX just sucks compared to platforms they’re used to.
Eg. Default lemmy Web UI is TERRIBLE
I kind of like the algorithm idea that Neptune (a potential Tiktok replacement) plans on having.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT2dbYBKj/
It plans on giving users different sliders, such as:
Following
Friends
Trending
Categories
etc.
https://www.tiktok.com/@theneptuneapp?_t=ZT-8tE7t6KDR5m&_r=1
Or maybe something like Fedialgo?
Or maybe perhaps something like Bluesky’s Algorithmic Custom Feeds, but adapted for Fediverse Social Media?:
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/tutorials/custom-feeds
I don’t think you can localize to a language. You localize to a region, you translate to a language. Localization goes beyond mere translation, they are different concepts.
We call both localization, because what you’re doing is branching out controls, formats, and such to a locale, which is not necessarily a location or a region. You could have en-us, en-ca, en-us, en-uk, en-au, en-sp, or you just have en to translate it to English and call it a day
Not to tech bros, they were to hungover from their sketchy frat bro ragers full of men hoping to get lucky and commit sexual assault to pay attention in that one humanities class they took freshman year.
Language studies are an obsolete profession to them, the future they have built is bullshit all the way down, there is nothing left to study other than the language of utter incompetency and proud willful ignorance steeped in chauvinism which they eminate like a 2005 vintage Abercrombie & Fitch mall store eminated vapors of shitty cologne.
Not that I disagree with the sentiment but in most software systems localization does not just mean translation either. Localization as a practice includes date, time, and number formats, preferred units of measure, language and dialect, and sometimes a few other things. I’m not saying localization or translation are done well, or that the Big Tech companies give any shits about it at all, but its not as though computer professionals are all entirely ignorant of these distinctions.
I mean I take your point but again you are just describing the technical details of localization. The little fiddly bits that can be automated and neatly dealt with by a computer or person with an accountant’s mindset for making sure little things plug neatly and cleanly into other little things. Any concept of “localization” that does not include careful consideration of the vast territory of nuance that surrounds the much easier technical details seems useless to me in the context of solving any actual real world problem.
When it comes to the actual hard parts about localization I am fairly certain almost every computer professional I have ever met or talked to does not understand them. The more successful a computer person is in their career the more they tend to think everything in the world functions like computers and thus they don’t need to try to understand alternate systems or phenomena that don’t adhere to their narrow tool belt of critical thinking strategies that can’t handle even a homeopathic amount of ambiguity or subjective nuance.
These types of people spend all day thinking in programs and then go home and play factorio and they think they are the smartest people in the entire universe, and they are idiots. Very very skilled idiots.
Very very skilled idiots.
On that–and as a highly skilled idiot myself–we fully agree!
The adage “social problems don’t have purely technological solutions” is something I’ve known for years yet must continuously remind myself of and reintegrate it for new issues.
It’s a shame the old vision of computer specialists integrated into empowered teams building bespoke solutions never really came to pass. Not enough profit in that model, when mass market slop is so lucrative.
It’s a bit akward to respond to that, since I did a Master’s in CompSci, lol. At least I can distance myself from that massive burn a little by saying that I was the akward virgin type and didn’t like the machine learning courses I had to take.
Language studies seem fascinating to me, I always found the stuff my sister was doing in her studies pretty interesting. A friend of hers was even trying to become an interpreter, that sounds so difficult.
I like the fediverse because there’s no algorithm feeding me crap.
But from all the memes I’ve seen about people’s “Chinese spy” perfecting their feed. I guess normal people love the algorithm
I guess normal people love the algorithm
The TikTok algorithm was/is (guess it’s back up, but not going back after the Trump messaging) really good about picking smaller niche videos. I had never really thought to get into spinning my own wool until I saw people working with dog hair brushes to card. Lots of recycled/punk/broke bitch crafts, which is a good way to glue me to the phone.
I think algorithms can be good, there just isn’t much incentive to make them good. TikTok has really good discovery features, but it also wants to show you Family Guy clips next to video game footage so that you’ll shut your mind off and buy something.
That is definitely the appeal. My friends who use apps with algorithms like tik tok tell me that is the reason they use the apps. I can’t blame them. Those algorithms showed me loads of obscure musical artists that are still my favorite today (and that is a good thing for indies/small businesses who don’t have much money for ad spaces). There is a lot of good reasons for algorithms like that, the problem is the data necessary to make them work and what other stuff they do with it.
I don’t think algorithms are inherently bad, honestly I think the lack of an algorithm holds the fediverse back. On lemmy, sorting by popular creates an okish feed, enough to familiarize yourself with different comms, but on mastodon and the like, it can feel empty. While algorithms are associated with corporatism, an opt in adapted to fediverse sensibilities algorithm, could make some fedi apps more accessible.
Guess they’re China’s problem now.
Not until they move there
I assure you, people can be a problem from afar.
