You walk to the fucking grocery store. I know it sounds wild but we have legs so we can use it.
That doesn’t work if the grocery store is too far to walk or for larger grocery hauls (which often go hand in hand - the further away, the fewer trips you’ll want to make). I’ve been told that some places just genuinely don’t have a grocer within 20min walking distance, because some construction planning apparently prefers huge zones of housing without any kind of commercial usage allowed - no baker, no grocer, no hairstylist, no doctor - making it effectively impossible to have any of those amenities in range.
Obviously, that is a planning issue and ought to be fixed. You’ll have to contend with NIMBYs, but you’d have to do that with any changes anyway. Alternatively or additionally, you could install a usable network of bus lines and trams (though they shouldn’t be run for profit, so it’ll be a tough sell too).
There is also the issue of accessibility, but I think that would be trivial to solve as a side effect: If the streets are less crowded with cars, it’s easier to offer special accommodation for people with limited mobility or anxiety issues.
Bikes are faster than walking and you can attach a trailer. I know a lot of people do that in denmark. Suddenly your cargo capacity is larger than a lot of cars, of course not for weight. As for people with mobility issues, where i live they have a dedicated branch of the public transit for them. On train you can go with wheelchair and if you need extra help in the city they can send you someone with minibuss to help you. Same if youre not in a wheelchair but limited because of your age. Of course these arent cheap to solve but putting out the la fires that were caused by global warming that was in part caused by cars isnt cheap either.
Bikes are faster than walking
…but put me at a higher risk of hurting myself because I’m bloody clumsy (impaired balance and coordination). Joke aside, good point.
As for people with mobility issues, where i live they have a dedicated branch of the public transit for them. On train you can go with wheelchair and if you need extra help in the city they can send you someone with minibuss to help you. Same if youre not in a wheelchair but limited because of your age.
That is awesome!
Of course these arent cheap to solve
In the short term, no, it’s probably an expensive project. But in the long term, even aside from environmental impact, I think it would save money.
Just not for the car manufacturers… Those poor, poor billionaires will need to find a different income I guess.
WE ONCE HAD STREETCARS LOOK WHAT THEY TOOK FROM US
The Ford Motor Company decided that streetcars weren’t a proper mean of transportation, both for the US people and for the Ford Motor Company shareholders.
Still my favourite form of transport
the virgin bus route weeps and gnashes at the feet of CHAD STREETCAR
These “take a train” crowd think that everyone in every city and every town has a subway system or even a functional bus system. It’s like the bicycle people who insist that I don’t need a car, I can just strap my kids to my back in winter and drop them off at school before cycling to work and stopping for errands and groceries on the way home! So easy! /s
If I didn’t NEED a car I wouldn’t drive one, and that applies to most people. But for some reason everyone on here is a 20something city kid with easy access to public transit
“These ‘take a train’ crowd” tend to be also the ones saying “build more trains, light rail, and tram lines, also bike lanes” but who are prevented from making progress at every turn by oil and motor lobbyists. They are very aware of the limitations but generally encourage it because it’s a good thing to do.
Lemme strap my wife and kids to my back while I cycle them all to their destinations then head off to work 50km away in the dead of winter!
Bicycle people have no brain, they think everyone lives in California or some shit
Elon’s commenter: “Trains!”
Elon defender: “But what about groceries?”
The comment you replied to: “Bikes!”
You, for some unknowable reason: “But what if I need to travel 50km to work, see bike people have no brain”
You take a train for that, obviously! You just take bike for anything shorter than 2 - 5km, maybe E-bike if you need/want it, Bus and Metro lines should get you anywhere in your city. And before you ask, if all stations are too far to walk, you bike there. If all of these don’t work for you, then you can drive a car on clear roads, because everyone who doesn’t need to drive doesn’t.
“But there are no good bicycle paths/Light rail lines/public transit stations where I live!” Yes, what I said is unrealistic to do in most cities. But we can work towards it, and that starts by getting the people that can use bikes on bike paths, and the people that can take the train on train lines.
50 km commute is wild anywhere, sorry to hear that
This is the most offensive and derogatory form of ableism. I’m reporting this and I’m tagging you as “Person who hates the disabled” and I am not going to spend even a moment thinking about how mass transit or pedestrian pathways might benefit an individual with mobility issues.
See your comment brings up the big issue I have with the bicycle crowd. I literally cannot ride a bike due to disability , so ride transit right? If my city had a good and reliable transit system i fucking would! But it doesn’t, and it never fucking will. So yes I will give up the car and take transit every day, when pigs fly and my city has a good transit system.
Your way of thinking relies on the belief that transit is adequate in most places, and it sure as hell is not
If my city had a good and reliable transit system
That is what is being argued for.
it never fucking will
Urban landscapes change regularly. US metropolises used to be significantly more mass transit friendly, and it took billions of dollars and millions of man hours to ruin them over the course of decades. You aren’t trapped in a historical moment forever, you’re riding the tide of history just like the rest of us.
Your way of thinking relies on the belief that transit is adequate in most places
My way of thinking relies on the belief that people being reflexively hostile to bicycles degrades future bicycle infrastructure development.
I’m seeing this happen in my home city of Houston, as the current mayor rips out a bunch of newly built bike lanes and bike-share racks because he’d rather the money go towards roadway expansion and policing. $10M/year transferred from bike development to resurfacing roadways of his friends and political allies, so he can tell me that people with mobility issues are best served by River Oaks getting a new coat of varnish.
My city installed bike lanes all over the place, the cyclists don’t use them. They just zip by you on the sidewalk as the bike lane sits empty
My neighborhood doesn’t have that problem. You’ll see regular big rides with dozens - even hundreds - of riders spilling down the protected lanes.
Nobody rides on the sidewalks if they can avoid it. Where do you live that the sidewalks are even maintained? Around here they’re a jagged mess.
Please, add /s. I almost believed you.
I do this with light rail. Takes 6 minutes with slow walking included. It’s pleasant.
Especially in the winter. I live in Norway, so if I use a car I wait for the engine to warm up before driving. (It’s better for the engine.) This and removal of ice and snow easily takes more than 6 minutes. I’m really glad I don’t have a car.
Most of the world is not like Norway and having a car is a necessity not a desire
I completely understand that owning a car can be necessary for someone, but since I’m lucky enough to have access to good public transit a car just doesn’t make any sense for me.
It’s MANY times as expensive, the car requires maintenance/repair and driving requires me to be focused and well rested.
Even with zero sleep, a headache, icy roads, a beer in my stomach and lots of stress, I can safely get where I need to go and I don’t even have to think about parking when I get there. I can even listen to music or a podcast on really low volume with closed eyes. I hope that more people get access to good public transit.
For a society in the long run public transit is also cheaper per passenger than cars. The difference in cost efficiency grows the more densely populated an area is. Statistically most people on Lemmy live in a more densely populated area than me, so you can probably demand this from your government. Y’all would end up saving money.
The fact people want to get in a car in order to get groceries is beyond me. I’m in Australia, where car brain is also very prevalent, but with many urban places good for walking and PT.
I live close to the shops, and go there multiple times a week because it’s literally right there. Driving and parking? Nah, I’m good.
American problems
I live in Houston. We have a grocery store in town that has a big apartment block over the top of it. A friend lives there and he jokes that he’s taking the elevator to the grocery store any time I complain about traffic or parking.
Unfortunately, living in a posh apartment that’s conveniently placed over a nice grocery store means the price of rent is astronomical. So he needs to work as a highly paid attorney in the oil industry to afford to live in a place where he doesn’t need to use a car to get groceries.
Well good on him at least for copping the first adopters price haha, hopefully you can put some stuff back where the city bulldozed to put carparks one day 😅 one apartment at time
The ironic (Or perhaps just interesting) thing is that apartments are supposed to be cheaper living because you don’t have a front or back yard.
It’s vaguely that here, if location is the same apartment is usually cheaper than a free standing house, but apartments are usually better located near public transport and amenities (the whole point), so there’s a slight premium for that.
The American description of apartments almost always coming along in the phrase “luxury condos” is perplexing (other than NYC, it seems)
In fairness, in Melbourne we also do not build many apartments. Far fewer than we should, mostly due to regulations and laws not being airtight around owners corporations, aka body corp, and conflicts of interest where the developer awards a building management contract before selling all the apartments… So people are a bit hesitant to sign up for that and apartment living is still a pretty foreign concept to most
The ironic (Or perhaps just interesting) thing is that apartments are supposed to be cheaper living because you don’t have a front or back yard.
They tend to be more expensive per sqft but smaller than a house you could buy. And there’s no mortgage, so you don’t need a big down payment to move in.
But apartment living in a private system means enriching a landlord first and foremost. That means whatever the actual cost of the space, you’re going to pay extra.
The American description of apartments almost always coming along in the phrase “luxury condos” is perplexing (other than NYC, it seems)
It’s just a marketing gimmick. The term doesn’t have any legal meaning, so everyone uses it to upsell their units.
Some of the dingest places I’ve lived have been billed as “luxury”.
And there’s no mortgage, so you don’t need a big down payment to move in.
I am not quite following you here. What do you mean there’s no mortgage? (Other than if you have the cash, and thus don’t need a loan)
What do you mean there’s no mortgage?
Most people don’t buy a home outright. They take out a long-term low-interest loan (mortgage literally means “pledge till death” although they typically only last 15-30 years) to pay back the house in installments. However, before you can take out this loan, banks will often demand a down payment equal to 20% of the total value of the property. With the high price of housing, this down payment can be substantial - a $500k house requires a $100k down payment.
Renters don’t need to make these large advanced payments in order to get access to a rental unit. You aren’t required to have $100k in the bank before you get your own place.
Ah, you did not mention the renter part haha, I was considering how much each costs to buy
Friends I have talk about ordering groceries so casually. I go onto these apps and see a 20% markup with delivery fees and I’m like what the fuck.
Ideally we could just fucking walk to a small grocery store instead of having to drive to one. Also would increase jobs with more foot traffic.
Most Americans lost one or both of their feet to the diabeetus
Don’t forget polio, due to anti-vaxxers, it’s making a comeback!
We pay extra to send our kids to a school where all Vax need to be up to date and it’s actually verified. Fucked up its come to this.
as a Dutchy, this confuses me greatly
Trains solve traffic issues
Elon brings shame to autists everywhere by not knowing about trains
Gregory does not have enough trains in his neighbourhood
Elon brings shame to autists everywhere by not knowing about trains
Elon’s not actually autistic. He’s just terminally online and regularly high off his gord. Once he sobers up, he does a masterful job of rooking WASPs out of their retirement accounts and state treasuries out of their tax monies by doing his best Music Man impression.
yeah, the Netherlands is so nice with that, you bike to a station for 10 minutes and then its a 2 hour train ride to go anywhere in the country
If you are not disabled in anyway and still need to take a transport bigger than a bicycle to buy basic groceries, the design of the city you live in is fundamentally broken.
As a disabled person, thanks for remembering us. I’ll see these “just hop on your bike and pedal over!” comments and it’s kinda saddening.
There are disabled people in the Netherlands too. And they can move around the city in micro cars, mobility scooters, electric wheelchairs, etc… with confidence, because bike lanes network allows them to go anywhere, with way more autonomy and safety than in any other country.
That sounds great, but I suspect The Netherlands wouldn’t welcome me with open arms. Until then, I’m stuck in 'Murica.
I suspect The Netherlands wouldn’t welcome me with open arms
Because you’re disabled? Or because you’ve got an unseasonal tan or low-income?
From my experience, the EU is enormously accepting and encouraging of rich white migrants, regardless of their mobility status.
honestly, that’s worth the try :D But of course, it’s easy to always show the exception and ask “why aren’t you all doing the same?”. Decades of car centric politics will not be fixed easily, not with techbros reinventing trains, not in today’s 'Murica. It’s a shame, though, because there was a great streetcars infrastructure a century ago… maybe that’s the one thing America should bring back to be great again
Taking a train to the grocery store only seems absurd to people who have never experienced a really efficient rail system.
You get what you pay for.
I used to take the train to the grocery store. It was called the red line in Chicago
In Tokyo I’d hop on the subway regularly to shop. Not a big deal at all.
The only thing that was different was that you don’t buy two weeks of groceries at once.
This was something that used to put me on the pro-car side; if it takes me multiple trips just to get all my groceries from my car into the house, lugging all of that on a bus or a bike would be a nightmare!
But then I saw content from people like Not Just Bikes, and saw how people in places with good public transit actually live, and it hit me like a ton of bricks that if shopping was more convenient, I wouldn’t need to buy a week’s worth of groceries in one trip. I could just swing by a corner store for what I need that night or the next morning, and one or two bags are easy to handle on a train or even a bicycle.
Introducing:the tramway!
Wait until they hear about the Bus. But probably is for the best they don’t, their head would explode at the thought
Bro, I can walk 1 mile to the grocery store and 1 mile back. That’s roughly an hour including shopping. I have a disability on my right foot so I’m slow moving.
I can walk 1/2 a mile to the bus stop and spend another 20-30 min to the store, so around 2 or more hours.
I can drive there in 5 minutes.
Cars are not the solution and are terrible for the environment but many people don’t have other options
Imagine if you lived somewhere that your disability would be considered and accommodated for, so you were given an electric mobility scooter or other, more sensible and less dangerous transport for those one mile situations…
Ok, but imagine this: you work a mile or two from your house, with bus stops every two blocks, and they come every 5 minutes. That walk to your house passes a grocery store, several bakeries, a small hardware store, and most other places you’d need to go day to day. On one side of this main Street is a park, on the other is a few blocks of homes and businesses before you get to a parking garage next to the highway - all the roads inside the community have low speed limits and little parking, so there’s not much traffic.
If you qualify for handicap placards you can park on the street, a few parking passes can do the same, but are hard to get because they’re auctioned off. Most people leave their cars in the parking garage if they don’t need them, they might park near their building to unload large amounts of stuff, but after they take it back to the lot. People at the stores in the community don’t generally buy more than will fit in a personal cart or a backpack, because they’re so close and convenient
It’s actually way more convenient, because you don’t have parking lots everywhere. Instead stores, offices, and housing of all levels of affordability is all mixed together, so you just give priority to people who can’t walk far, and everyone else just has a couple staircases or a couple blocks further to go
And it’s not just a dream, I spent a summer living in a place that worked exactly like this
Your problem is with infrastructure
It should be designed for people who can’t drive
Generally those physically capable of driving are better off not driving than those who physically can’t drive
A mile on a bike should take about 5 minutes too.
People really need to commute for groceries? Like, I have the store 1 block away. Americans don’t know they can walk?
I live in the U.S. (for less than one more week now!) and currently, the closest place for me to buy groceries is five miles down a four lane highway. No sidewalks, obviously. You would be safe from cars walking on the median, less safe from poison ivy, ticks and lime disease since they don’t exactly care about keeping them well-mowed in the summer.
I can already see that things will be different in the place where we will be temporarily living in the UK (Blackburn).
The closest (and not my preferred because it’s kind of expensive) grocery store would be a 2 hr round trip walking distance from me
That’s just fucked up, I’m so sorry.
Food deserts are a thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
They impact millions of people.
Yeah, it’s fucked up.
TIL
I usually stop at a grocery store on my commute, but if I just need something real quick I just walk to one of the three grocery stores down the street, but loading up the car on the way home is just much easier
Most Americans leave too far away from any supermarket, even if there were roads that could take you there, either by walking or cycling.
I say it’s a business opportunity, why don’t Americans just open a small general store in their residential areas? Not everything need to come from a supermarket, here we have people that literally sell you vegetables in a rented garage.
Seems like the only acceptable usage of garages for you people are tech startups and maybe teenager bands lol.
I hope the answer is not “due to some obtuse regulation, residential areas can’t have business operating in any shape or form, unless is a tech startup or an ice cream truck”.
I want to also mention that smaller grocery stores used to exist but Walmart effectively outed them
https://www.reddit.com/r/business/comments/1bpbgia/how_bad_did_stores_like_walmart_kill_small/
I watched a video about the topic some time ago, it sheds some light upon the stuff
It’s not obtuse regulation, it’s explicitly by design. In most places in the US, you cannot operate a business in a residential area that serves the public. Businesses that do not do serve the public (like a tech startup or someone working from home) are fine. Ice cream trucks are also not allowed unless you have a proper business license / permit.
That laws sounds exactly like obtuse regulation to me. Why you cannot have a grocery store in your neighborhood? I really can’t think of a good reason. If there is a case for ice cream trucks, proper business license/permit and all that, it makes even less sense for other business types.
C’mon, you really need to commute to the supermarket to buy some bananas? That’s nonsense.
As an American that wishes for having stores just that close, the zoning laws are like that for a reason. That reason is to keep people dependent on cars. That is good for the fossil fuel industry.
I know it’s nonsense. A fair amount of people know it’s nonsense. But also a lot of people don’t know, because they can’t imagine a life without cars (or a life where you don’t need to drive to do every mundane task). They only know no car = no job, food, or socialization and they will fight hard to guard it.
C’mon, you really need to commute to the supermarket to buy some bananas?
In the US our culture has mostly adapted the grocery store routine to our car culture. The typical trip to the grocery store involves filling a large shopping cart with all the family’s food for the next week or two. People get in the car and drive a far distance to a big grocery store that sells everything. They buy more than they could ever carry, and they load it all into the car.
Also exacerbating this is how much we love shitty processed food. The big grocery stores have nice produce sections, but 80% of what’s in the store is shelf stable and in a box.
Zoning laws and NIMBYs
Well if they leave so far why don’t they return?
slow clap
This dude jokes but when I lived in Harlem I’d take the subway to Columbus circle Whole Foods as it was significantly easier than commuting to the east side on 125 to pathmark.
Light rail. All the time. Train isn’t only Amtrak.
Working from home is the only way to really beat traffic.
No congestion at all. Not even an overcrowded train.
