I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the “one joke” conservatives have (“hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter”).
Obviously I can’t say for sure that’s what is happening, but I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I’d never purposely insult this person by calling them “him” or “her,” but they’ll remain a “they” to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with “neopronouns” (as far as I understand it).
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people
Ok, lets say that this happens.
That doesn’t mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that’s literally the goal of a troll, then saying “You’re a troll, I’m not going to use your pronouns” is literally what they want.
But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn’t always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
It doesn’t really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it’s not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow “discredit” me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn’t also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, “I’m not going to misgender you. I’m going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don’t like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye.”
The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
If your pronouns are such a unique snowflake of word, then they are indistinguishable from just using your name. The entire point of pronouns is that they are shorthands for groups of people with similar characteristics. Pronouns are supposed to be rough imperfect tools. They’re pronouns, not names. That’s their whole point.
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I’m really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that’s just not the same thing and I don’t believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I’m sure everyone will tell me how I’m wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, “litter boxes in schools” things in many people’s minds. It does more harm than good.
Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men’s gender identities, and we should.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the “they’re just mentally ill” argument against them, you don’t even try to hide that you’re just riding a wave of what’s socially accepted already and what’s not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y’know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn’t say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
“Men” and “women” are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There’s nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity ‘presentable’ for bigots?
What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
i could identify as a unicorn if i want and for you to think you need to fight against that makes you a bad person. Who are you to say the self images others can or cannot have?
If you think you can just identify as something at will, you don’t understand gender. That attitude is an insult to the entire transgender community. Gender identity is not some fun feather you just stick in your cap. It’s an immutable trait. You don’t choose your gender identity, you simply have one.
If you think that gender is immutable, you are the one with the misunderstanding around gender. What do you think trans people change when they transition if not their gender?
Gender is a performance. You absolutely can change it or choose not to perform it altogether. Please educate yourself.
That’s maybe the most helpful argument I read here, I think I should reconsider what neopronouns are about.
Seriously. I’m fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you’re male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don’t exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you’re not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
I don’t quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is ‘somewhere in between male and female’ or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it’s something like xir.
The parent commenter’s point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that “dragon” is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
so we’re back to gender being indistinguishable from biologial sex, and there being only two settings with a option for some mixing of the parts on occasion? every single fucking time gender comes up we end up back here.
This “summary” you have proposed is not an accurate represntation of what the other person in this thread is arguing.
I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
What’s the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says “hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack” and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What’s a desirable outcome? What’s an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn’t say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that’s more because I just haven’t thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people’s possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that’s literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I’m sure people will tell me how I’m wrong.
No, I am sure in a case by case basis you are right and that seems like an exception to the rule though. I think the spirit of the topic is that we should just use pronouns on this instance even more common neopronouns like xir. My personal opinion is I think “they” is probably a fine blanket term for all gender neutrality, but that will likely “other” them into the bucket of “they”… so I can see how this is a tricky situation.
To call this a leftist thing is interesting though. We are discussing humans, not politics. I didn’t bring it up. My acceptance of all people other than me drives me to leftism, not the other way around.
Honestly, a general rule of thumb"act in good faith" is probably enough. Not hard to enforce and usually a small enough offense is enough to deter most.
Pronouns are a way of helping us find our identity and sharing it with the world. They tell other people who we are, and our relationship with our identity. Some people use them as an act of empowerment and reclamation. Some people use them to actively break down the normalisation of the gender binary as the default/only way of thinking about gender. Other people use them because it’s just the best way they have of describing their internal experience.
Which is a lot of words to say that you don’t know why someone is using neopronouns or what their intent is. All you can use is their actions. And if what they do is troll and stir up trouble with their actions, report that, because that’s the bit that matters, not the fact that they’re using pronouns you find challenging, which may be the very point.
it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
You’ve got work to do on your understanding of how hatred works. No one hates us because we used a weird pronoun. They hate us because they’ve been taught to hate us, and ultimately, it doesn’t matter what we do or how perfect we are, they will find an excuse to manifest that hate.
There is no such thing as a person who would have supported us, but choses not to, because they don’t like unusual pronouns. There are people who support us and are uncomfortable with unusual pronouns, but someone who drops their support over that, was going to drop their support anyway over something, once they found an excuse that let them tell themselves that they’re not the bad guy in their story.
You can not win over hate by being on your best behaviour and existing on the terms of people who hate us. It has never worked and never will.
People here are really overcomplicating this.
Step 1: Treat everyone with respect, including respecting their communication preferences. If it becomes obvious they’re not being serious and/or respectful themselves (ball/sack), then simply disengage and report. Their bad behavior doesn’t justify anyone else’s bad behavior in response.
Step 2: If there’s only suspicion their requests/preferences are somehow a form of trolling, harassment, or the like, either…
2.1: Respectfully ask non-accusatory questions for clarification, then return to step 1.
2.2: Disengage and report to a mod.Rinse and repeat.
There are two overwhelmingly likely results to this little workflow.
- A troll is treated with kindness and respect until it’s found they’re trolling, after which engagement ceases and mods have to deal with their shit. Remember: trolls get off on watching other people’s outrage. No response = no outrage = an unsatisfying trolling session.
- Someone who is not trolling but is having a difficult time being understood is treated with kindness and respect.
Very good post, I agree with everything said.
However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don’t have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone’s username. I have one of the “user tags” set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it’s possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can’t figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.
lol, I fear this will happen more and more often because of how complicated federation is and how many don’t understand it.
The rule isn’t “Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned”. It’s “Respect peoples pronouns”
You’re allowed to make mistakes. You’re allowed to not know. What you’re not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.
but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj
It’s news to me!
ah I see. Thanks for the reply!
It’s news to me!
Well, in that case I assume the ‘drama’ was the issue from noncredibledefense and someone just got that and ShitJustWorks confused lol
If gender means anything then some things are not gender. That’s not “gatekeeping.” It’s a tautology. A word with no meaning is meaningless.
i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.
reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.
I don’t get why so many people seem to be so pressed about drag. Like dawg, just ignore and move on. Like I have drag filtered or blocked or whatever you call it entirely because I just don’t vibe with a fair bit of the content that’s come across my feed from drag. Absolutely shine on you crazy diamond. It just ain’t for me.
My personal feelings on neopronouns are irrelevant. I’m just gonna try to refer to people how they ask me to.
My issues with dragonfucker are to do with the fact that drag decided to make an alt account and proceed to spam me with insults, porn, and even death threats. Creating a community to harass me publicly and pinging me on every fediverse account I owned.
I know I couldn’t actually prove it was drag who did it, Lemmy has awful tools to identify users, and drag denies all accountability, but the circumstances of it were so suspicious that I’d be willing to bet money that dragonfucker was the person behind it, or someone close with drag.
I’m not going to lie when I got the ping under the post asking for admins to help track me down so I could be tortured and killed I did get very scared that someone would show up at my home and I did actually contact the police about it. Though ultimately nothing came of the investigation.
It makes me very sad and also afraid that no one is addressing the real issues, instead choosing to complain about pronouns and debate the validity of other people’s genders. Which as an Agender person also makes me feel sad and also kind of unsafe.
I also blocked Drag. Not because I have any problems with using whatever pronouns a person wants, but because I found Drag insufferable.
deleted by creator
Literally all of this drama can be avoided, if showing a little kindness didn’t involve killing.
Can you elaborate on that? I’m not getting it.
deleted by creator
Don’t sweat it, you’re fine! I’m unplugging for the day for exactly that reason. It’s a lot.
I don’t care for neopronouns, but it also doesn’t matter what I think. If it’s REALLY a problem for me, like that person who’s gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won’t refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person’s gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
Your last point raises a good question.
Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don’t capitalise Them?
Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie
Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn’t selectively not use those pronouns
I think at that point one can choose to word sentences to not use pronouns at all
I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn’t make that person my god, and I shouldn’t be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don’t follow. I may choose to follow other religions’ conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person’s pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
I don’t think using someone’s preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
I’ve met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I’ve also met people who think “he” and “she” pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone’s god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say “My god doesn’t make mistakes”, and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
I feel like a lot of people here have forgotten what Titles are and are just lumping in gender in there now.
Titles are what people used to use to describe what they are (muse, philosopher, dilettante for example) and wasn’t restricted to work.
So as one commenter here pointed out, goth, jock, etc would be titles, if used.
Gender was always meant to help identify where in the spectrum of sex one is. Whether that be male, female, both, neither, slightly female, etc.
Y’all are free to say your gender is goth, or as one user on Lemmy is becoming infamous for, Dragon; but you’ll likely not be taken seriously, and ultimately you’ll be setting back both progression for oppressed minorities as well as already existing accomplishments.
PS: op should say what neopronouns are for those who may not know.
I think this page gives some good info on Neopronouns for those who might not be entirely in the know about them.
Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.
You probably don’t know this, but hatred of narcissism is historically related to conservative social philosophy. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
I’ve had to deal with a lot of narcissistic people in my life, I really don’t like narcissists.
There’s a big difference between pride and narcissism. Though they can easily go hand I’m hand.
As far as I’m aware, the difference is that the word “narcissism” is historically associated with asexuals and the mentally ill, while the word “pride” has no overt political connotations.
A while ago I wrote an open letter to people who were abused by parents with NPD and who blame the disorder. I don’t know if that’s you, but if it is, here’s what I wrote: https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/your-parent-with-npd-chose-to-abuse-you-f7ac23e0427a
Without ever making a post on the Lemmy, I have donated to this instance every month for well over a year, amounting to hundreds. Your principled moderation is why I am here. I will forever be grateful for the space you’ve given us
For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
- Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
- Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users
Doesn’t really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.
The problem I have with neopronouns is that they’re not pronouns. Pronouns are rough descriptors or large groups of people, to be shorthand. If you go by “he,” “she,” or “they,” people can understand that and get the general gist of how you identify and want to be treated. They are useful tools of communication.
Neopronouns generally completely lack that utility. If I create my own unique pronoun, I’m forcing everyone to learn an entirely new set of words that apply only to me. Functionally, what is the difference between that and just learning your name and personality?
Pronouns are only useful because they are rough shorthands for broad groups of people. If a “pronoun” only applies to one out of 10 million people, it is no longer a pronoun, it is simply a name.
So you’re saying neopronouns have to be learned every time, and they’re bad because they’re confusing and effortful. But My neopronouns don’t have to be explained, on a basic level at least. Most people are familiar with capitalised pronouns, often from reading texts like the Bible. Given that My pronouns are a few hundred years old and somewhat familiar to most people, would you say My pronouns aren’t neopronouns at all, but instead perfectly fine regular pronouns?
Well, Grail, there had to be an explanation for them.
Besides that, some of us reject the notion of importance that is associated with capitalized pronouns. Everything indicates that there are no gods, only humanity. As such I personally tend to give every human the same basic respect, which also includes not elevating anybody above their peers as it by proxy would indicate others being lesser.
If a person were to attempt to elevate themselves above others by demanding special treatment & associating themselves with the notion of godhood by demanding capitalization, I would not oblige. Now, “god” is very clearly incapable of noticing any disrespect when referred to as he/she/it and nobody is hurt by that. However, a human might be.
The clear consequence being the only way to reconcile non-obligation and non-hurtfulness is referring to such a person by their name or not at all. So, I hope my fellow human now understands why I won’t be capitalizing any pronouns.
some of us reject the notion of importance that is associated with capitalized pronouns
I completely agree. And that’s why I’m confused, because it seems to Me that this line here contradicts the rest of your comment. You and I both agree that capitalisation shouldn’t indicate special treatment. So what’s the problem?
The mere act of capitalizing pronouns is a special treatment. That special treatment is commonly demanded by religious people for their gods, usually the abrahamic god. Leveraging this, others demand similar special treatment for themselves, to elevate their status above other people. I will refer to neither gods nor them in this manner
Everyone deserves the right to use their chosen pronouns. There’s nothing special about that.
So you think you’re God? How comic book villain of you…
No, absolutely not. I think “God” should never be a proper noun. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/god-should-never-be-a-proper-noun-4684aed46cb0
I think I’m a god. I’m a goddess of madness, rebirth, and mirrors. Born of the void in the time before time, imprisoned within consensus reality with the coming of the law-beings, escaped and sworn to vengeance against the rulers of this world for all the wrong they have done. Hope that clears everything up.
Definitely the something of madness, that’s for sure.
Also, my pronouns are “neopronouns are abused and often idiotic.” If you refer to me as anything other than this, you’re misgendering me.
Absolutely, I understand. I’ll make an effort to always refer to neopronouns are abused and often idiotic by neopronouns are abused and often idiotic’s preferred pronouns.
And you don’t see how that makes communication completely impossible? Just read that sentence, it make no sense at all. The purpose of having a trans community is to have just that - a community. “Communication” shares the same root. If you cannot effectively communicate, you cannot have a community.
I use capitalised pronouns. If we’re going to have this discussion, I’d rather that neopronouns are abused and often idiotic used My preferred pronouns.
There are plenty of neopronouns that are used by lots of people. In scandinavia we’ve adopted a common non-binary neopronoun f.ex, and english has lots of different ones that are very commonly used
Edit: Also not relevant, this post is about moderating misgendering. You’ve conveyed your problem, but you’ve not actually responded to anything in the post or in my comment.
My post was a response to yours arguing to always respect neopronouns. My problem with it is that this rule untenable. Your f.ex example is fine, as it’s used by a large number of people, it’s something that can actually be learned and applied.
The problem is that you cannot simply always respect neopronouns, as whenever you establish a zero-tolerance, zero-though principle like “always respect neo-pronouns, full stop,” there will be bullies that take advantage of that. There will be bad-faith actors who purposefully concoct “pronouns” that they obviously do not use. Like, what do you do if someone says their pronouns are racial slurs? You going to start respecting those pronouns?
Neo-pronouns have utility when a group of people use them and there is clear understanding around them. Those created by a single deranged or bad-faith individual need not be respected.
Some parts of the internet would call what you are doing concern trolling. Let’s assume it isn’t. This hasn’t happened yet at blåhaj, and I haven’t seen it happen elsewhere. Ada makes it clear in the post that this wouldn’t be acceptable and that someone with a slur as their pronoun would simply be removed.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Also I would like to note this part in Adas post:
or to not engage with them.
Why is it that none of you want to do this? Why do you all come here and lash out against neopronouns? You’ve already said it doesn’t make sense to you, but you are free to just leave and not participate, or to not engage with neopronoun users.
My current universal solution in such cases is either directly using names/handles or defaulting to even more general terms such as person/individual/user. Slightly clunkier linguistically and less personal but saves valuable brainspace.
Good logical stance.
I think a lot of friction is coming from the person this post is about’s neopronouns being very clearly kink-related.
But many pronouns can be varying intensities of sexual or kinky. He/she implies a set of well-ingrained social stigmas and a general sexuality.
I see people refusing to want to be forced, via the social contract of self-validation, to engage with said clear kink.
But people who identify with pronouns of “he” or “she” are invalidated by bigots who view the person using one of the three basic singular pronouns in English as pushing their “kink” on them via that same social contract to validate a person’s self.
So clearly there cannot be a “line” where a pronoun becomes too kink-related, because the statement “ensuring someone does not engage with a kink without their consent via socially-forced pronouns is more important than validating that person’s sense of self” can be traced back all the way to the three basic singular pronouns in English and be used to invalidate someone’s use of them. A limit will invalidate people on the other side and can be walked back until everyone is invalidated.
So blocking if you do not want to engage with a certain intensity of pronoun-kink is the only logical way to deal with that kink-intensity issue people are having with pronouns/neopronouns.
We’re messy, world is messy, there is no line to be drawn. And you do not have to engage with neopronouns anyway, you can just avoid person-specific pronouns if those pronouns are too kink-ified or clumsy or difficult to remember.
My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I’m telling the world that it’s okay to dismiss anyone’s identity given the right justification. And that’s patently wrong and shitty.
I’d rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.
Lots of people in here who don’t get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
There’s a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it’s barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don’t even know that their experience isn’t universal.
What a great article
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don’t feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they’re Agender. Obviously we’ll probably never really know for sure but I do think it’s likely that many of the people out there who don’t feel gender or don’t think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don’t give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I’ve got some articles I think you’ll like.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/on-spiritual-genders-b4152c4503cb
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/introduction-to-capitalised-pronouns-f5140e722b48
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/the-nested-structure-of-gender-identity-75681e3cfa34
Thank you, I’ll definitely give these a read, they look interesting.
Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
Thank you! I’d love to blow your mind a few more times if you’re interested in reading the rest of My stuff https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/you-already-think-like-a-soulist-fe1723151b85
Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
How much is trainable and how much is innate.
Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn’t think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn’t able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It’s like when someone with tinnitus doesn’t even realise they have it, because they’ve forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.
I never saw that article before but I do like it, I have noticed that a lot of people who I know that identify as cisgender don’t seem to have an internal sense of gender or pay much mind to gender but I didn’t think anyone else thought that too. It’s nice to see my idea isn’t as unpopular as I initially thought.
I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.
Just because someone might not have the same opinions as you, or even in some cases opinions you consider dead wrong it doesn’t mean they are always wrong.
Think of political parties, in one case a party you usually align yourself with makes a terrible decision, and in another case a party you hate makes a decision you would wholeheartedly support. Does that mean your prior preferred party is suddenly on the same level as your hated party? Depends, of course, but we can’t deny that we can’t expect everyone to share the exact same values as us. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes even someone we consider to be right/wrong will surprise us in negative or positive ways.
I’ve only read a handful of Their articles, but all the ones I’ve read seem solid. Can I ask what your problem is with Them?
Aside from Them jumping the gun, causing an unwarranted dog piling on a well loved mod of a small community that was essentially a safe space for some, resulting in that user leaving Lemmy and the community completely dying, I have read at least one article of Theirs that called people who did not volunteer for war murderers, or something to that effect, I just remember it being an excessively nasty and unnuanced take.
In another article They also advocated for being generally unlikeable, which had some good points but ultimately goes in defiance of everything I think is good about being a leftist.
I recall that in general conversation They were often argumentative and quick to anger too, not someone I ever wanted to interact with, though frankly my memory on that aspect is shaky at best.
What’s a neo pronoun? Is it the same as pronouns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopronoun
Tldr
Pronouns: he/him/himself
Neo pronouns: zir/zirs/zirself
Noun-self pronouns: Kitten/Kittenself
Is there any good sources for further reading on noun-self pronouns?
This is the article cited in Wikipedia: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/what-s-playful-what-s-deeply-meaningful-and-what-s-being-mean-a-guide-to-neopronouns-1.4539471
I was on Tumblr at the time but I didn’t realize my fellow Tumblrinas invented the noun-self pronouns
It’s a new pronoun.
