I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙
and it’s another reason why i love it here 💞
It’s interesting from an outside ally pov to watch this community bend itself into a pretzel and practice some of the most inane mental gymnastics I’ve ever seen to accommodate individuals who demand unreasonable accomodations.
This is like listening to Christians explain how they know that they know that they know that they know, that their God is real and has dominion over all.
For myself I choose not to interact with those individuals as I find them utterly exhausting to interact with.
Neopronouns may indeed have their place, but so far I have found every single individual claiming one to be someone that I am thankful to never have any interaction with.
inane mental gymnastics
demand unreasonable accomodations
“”“Unreasonable accomodations,”“” here meaning, using people’s preferred pronouns.
How tf do you see yourself as an ally?
This is a very simple concept that you will need to get used to: Obey the rules of the website you are posting to or commenring on, or don’t post/comment on that website. If you do not agree with the rules, you can ignore the website. If you cannot grok this, then I am afraid there is very little hope for you.
My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
You’re allowed to make mistakes and find it difficult. You’re not allowed to decide that you’re not even going to try. If you are at that point, your options are to get it right, or to not engage with the person in question.
yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao
that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear
Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\
Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag’s pronouns or anyone else’s. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.
You literally didn’t though? You locked someone else’s post, but not PugJesus’ post. You also regurgitated the same stupid line about “dragon fucker isn’t a gender” that literally has nothing to do with drag’s pronouns. Way to try and curry favour like you care when you clearly, in fact, do not.
This is a bad faith comment tbh. I locked the second post on this topic soon after I was messaged about it. It didn’t seem as heated as the other post I previously locked which is why I’d left it unlocked originally. Perhaps it took a while for that lock to be federated to the blajah instance?
And for the record, that’s not what I said, you are (inaccurately) paraphrasing. I do think that drag is a irredeemable troll, but I have always used drag’s pronouns to the best of my ability. Just because drag might be trans doesn’t excuse drag’s behaviour towards other users. We adopt a “fuck around and find out” rule towards trolls and drag fucked around one time too many.
I don’t have any opinion on the validity or otherwise of neo-pronouns, I’m not interested in litigating the topic because the discussion always turns toxic - I simply reminded our members to respect pronouns even if they don’t agree with or understand them.
If my actions seem like “currying favour” to you, then I can only say that you seem to be determined to take offense.
“paraphrasing”
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i’m just trying to take offence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag’s pronouns shouldn’t factor into that.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus’ post, which you hadn’t locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
“paraphrasing”
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i’m just trying to take offence. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
The CW differentiates between “misgendering” as usually understood by mainstream folks (i.e., calling a trans-man a woman or vice versa) and the more inclusive concept of “misgendering” (maybe I used the wrong term here??) Ada posted about which includes imaginary identities and pronouns, such as fantasy creatures etc. I think the first meaning is widely accepted (at least among social progressives) but the second is perhaps not, which is why I made the distinction. If you can suggest a more appropriate wording for the CW that will be understood by most folks then I’ll be happy to consider revising the wording. I also reminded our users to respect pronouns no matter what they are, even if they don’t understand or agree with them.
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag’s pronouns shouldn’t factor into that.
FYI, I’m not in fact a mod of that community. I only stepped in because I got a lot of reports about this topic and thought it was going off the rails. And generally I prefer to leave user comments intact in that community rather than removing them, since I think it’s useful to keep a record of the discussion for future reference. Thus the CW approach on this occasion.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus’ post, which you hadn’t locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
The actual chain of events was 1. receiving a bunch of reports about one post (the first one I locked); 2. coming across this post and expressing solidarity with Ada; 3. receiving a message about the second post; and 4. locking that post too. PugJesus was in fact active in both posts and there was a lot of topic overlap.
I’m sorry I didn’t act sooner, but it’s xmas and I have other IRL stuff going on. I’m also sorry you folks at blajah have received so much abuse simply for trying to be an inclusive and safe space for trans people. I do my best to be supportive of trans folks and of your instance, but I totally acknowledge I’m not an expert on the topic and may have worded things poorly. If you want to attack me for that, then go ahead I guess, but on a personal note, I am a 50yo gay man who has also faced discrimination and abuse in my life, so please have some consideration for my feelings too, because being (imo) unfairly accused of being transphobic is hurtful. Thanks.
Misgendering is misgendering, fullstop, no distinction to be made. They aren’t “imaginary identities” they are just identities. It’s sad to see transphobia being spouted by an instance admin of what I formerly considered a safe instance to be apart of.
By considering invalidating neopronouns to not be “misgendering” you are essentially invalidating those identities, and certainly doing so by calling them “imaginary”.
Additionally, perpetuating transphobia at all is disgusting. There shouldn’t be a cw, it should be removed, and the user should be banned. The modlog has logs if seeing the context is needed.
It’s sad to see transphobia being perpetuated on this instance (dbzer0), by an admin nonetheless. Guess it’s time to switch instances.
thank you for replying to their message as well, i really didn’t have the spoons too. you’re more than welcome here at blahaj 💜
Thank you! It’s been eye opening to see just how many of them there are active on lemmy :/
I want to share the above person’s comment regarding drag while locking that post:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/15649022
As well, the post that user locked was not the main post, that was left unlocked for at least another 12 hours. There were two.
I didn’t want to report this as I didn’t want to face repercussion from moderators/admin on that instance.
thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.
imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:
the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
You disgust me.Damn, it’s really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I’m not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it’s no where near the first time I’ve seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I’ve seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don’t agree that using “gender” in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that’s not really for me to decide.
Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I’ve blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It’s not really fun anymore.
it’s raw, and it’s real, and i’m SO glad you typed it out because it’s eloquating some shit that’s been bouncing around my head all nebulous and untouchable like.
and yeah pugjesus is a punk ass. mf has more than triple dipped on being an asshole in just the past 24 hours. anyone who isn’t already in that particular brand of echo chamber would be best off keeping as far away as possible, those kinda toxins are bad for the spirit :/
I definitely didn’t handle myself well in response to this either, so please give yourself some grace. The amount of cis people who were trying to assert that disrespecting drag’s identity was the right thing to do was huge and wildly disappointing. It’s hard to call any of them allies. I’ve been blocking a bunch as well.
To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.
/s
I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.
i really oughta block that whole comm. there’s something to be said for the value of dissenting opinions, but until they raise a point that isn’t “weird pronouns bad” there’s not a lot there for anyone outside the echo chamber.
i’m starting to think even trying to argue the logic is just an exercise in validating their bullshit when your comments all get dogpiled.
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
You sound like you’ve got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It’s not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you’re not actively being a dickhead you probably don’t have too much to worry about on that front.
is there a definitive list of pronouns?
No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told
This is a good strategy :)
once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts
This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @[email protected] wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
is there a definitive list of pronouns
Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It’s just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They’re essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what’s considered women’s work (cooking) and men’s work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You’re right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You’re unfortunately entirely correct that it’s a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that’s its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don’t use it online, the they effectively don’t get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It’s out of desperation to be validated in some way. It’s a bummer, but I get it. I’m lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don’t use my name online. But I’m absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.
Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.
You probably don’t know this, but hatred of narcissism is historically related to conservative social philosophy. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
I’ve had to deal with a lot of narcissistic people in my life, I really don’t like narcissists.
There’s a big difference between pride and narcissism. Though they can easily go hand I’m hand.
As far as I’m aware, the difference is that the word “narcissism” is historically associated with asexuals and the mentally ill, while the word “pride” has no overt political connotations.
A while ago I wrote an open letter to people who were abused by parents with NPD and who blame the disorder. I don’t know if that’s you, but if it is, here’s what I wrote: https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/your-parent-with-npd-chose-to-abuse-you-f7ac23e0427a
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the “one joke” conservatives have (“hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter”).
Obviously I can’t say for sure that’s what is happening, but I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I’d never purposely insult this person by calling them “him” or “her,” but they’ll remain a “they” to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with “neopronouns” (as far as I understand it).
It doesn’t really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it’s not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow “discredit” me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn’t also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, “I’m not going to misgender you. I’m going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don’t like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye.”
The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
If your pronouns are such a unique snowflake of word, then they are indistinguishable from just using your name. The entire point of pronouns is that they are shorthands for groups of people with similar characteristics. Pronouns are supposed to be rough imperfect tools. They’re pronouns, not names. That’s their whole point.
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I’m really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that’s just not the same thing and I don’t believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I’m sure everyone will tell me how I’m wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, “litter boxes in schools” things in many people’s minds. It does more harm than good.
i could identify as a unicorn if i want and for you to think you need to fight against that makes you a bad person. Who are you to say the self images others can or cannot have?
If you think you can just identify as something at will, you don’t understand gender. That attitude is an insult to the entire transgender community. Gender identity is not some fun feather you just stick in your cap. It’s an immutable trait. You don’t choose your gender identity, you simply have one.
If you think that gender is immutable, you are the one with the misunderstanding around gender. What do you think trans people change when they transition if not their gender?
Gender is a performance. You absolutely can change it or choose not to perform it altogether. Please educate yourself.
That’s maybe the most helpful argument I read here, I think I should reconsider what neopronouns are about.
Seriously. I’m fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you’re male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don’t exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you’re not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
so we’re back to gender being indistinguishable from biologial sex, and there being only two settings with a option for some mixing of the parts on occasion? every single fucking time gender comes up we end up back here.
This “summary” you have proposed is not an accurate represntation of what the other person in this thread is arguing.
I don’t quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is ‘somewhere in between male and female’ or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it’s something like xir.
The parent commenter’s point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that “dragon” is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the “they’re just mentally ill” argument against them, you don’t even try to hide that you’re just riding a wave of what’s socially accepted already and what’s not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y’know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn’t say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
“Men” and “women” are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There’s nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity ‘presentable’ for bigots?
Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men’s gender identities, and we should.
What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people
Ok, lets say that this happens.
That doesn’t mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that’s literally the goal of a troll, then saying “You’re a troll, I’m not going to use your pronouns” is literally what they want.
But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn’t always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
What’s the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says “hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack” and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What’s a desirable outcome? What’s an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn’t say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that’s more because I just haven’t thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people’s possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that’s literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I’m sure people will tell me how I’m wrong.
Pronouns are a way of helping us find our identity and sharing it with the world. They tell other people who we are, and our relationship with our identity. Some people use them as an act of empowerment and reclamation. Some people use them to actively break down the normalisation of the gender binary as the default/only way of thinking about gender. Other people use them because it’s just the best way they have of describing their internal experience.
Which is a lot of words to say that you don’t know why someone is using neopronouns or what their intent is. All you can use is their actions. And if what they do is troll and stir up trouble with their actions, report that, because that’s the bit that matters, not the fact that they’re using pronouns you find challenging, which may be the very point.
it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
You’ve got work to do on your understanding of how hatred works. No one hates us because we used a weird pronoun. They hate us because they’ve been taught to hate us, and ultimately, it doesn’t matter what we do or how perfect we are, they will find an excuse to manifest that hate.
There is no such thing as a person who would have supported us, but choses not to, because they don’t like unusual pronouns. There are people who support us and are uncomfortable with unusual pronouns, but someone who drops their support over that, was going to drop their support anyway over something, once they found an excuse that let them tell themselves that they’re not the bad guy in their story.
You can not win over hate by being on your best behaviour and existing on the terms of people who hate us. It has never worked and never will.
No, I am sure in a case by case basis you are right and that seems like an exception to the rule though. I think the spirit of the topic is that we should just use pronouns on this instance even more common neopronouns like xir. My personal opinion is I think “they” is probably a fine blanket term for all gender neutrality, but that will likely “other” them into the bucket of “they”… so I can see how this is a tricky situation.
To call this a leftist thing is interesting though. We are discussing humans, not politics. I didn’t bring it up. My acceptance of all people other than me drives me to leftism, not the other way around.
Honestly, a general rule of thumb"act in good faith" is probably enough. Not hard to enforce and usually a small enough offense is enough to deter most.
People here are really overcomplicating this.
Step 1: Treat everyone with respect, including respecting their communication preferences. If it becomes obvious they’re not being serious and/or respectful themselves (ball/sack), then simply disengage and report. Their bad behavior doesn’t justify anyone else’s bad behavior in response.
Step 2: If there’s only suspicion their requests/preferences are somehow a form of trolling, harassment, or the like, either…
2.1: Respectfully ask non-accusatory questions for clarification, then return to step 1.
2.2: Disengage and report to a mod.Rinse and repeat.
There are two overwhelmingly likely results to this little workflow.
- A troll is treated with kindness and respect until it’s found they’re trolling, after which engagement ceases and mods have to deal with their shit. Remember: trolls get off on watching other people’s outrage. No response = no outrage = an unsatisfying trolling session.
- Someone who is not trolling but is having a difficult time being understood is treated with kindness and respect.
Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.
If gender means anything then some things are not gender. That’s not “gatekeeping.” It’s a tautology. A word with no meaning is meaningless.
Is it possible to block an instance on Voyager?
Settings. Filters/ blocks. Add instance.
I respect all persons regardless of their genders, I really do, but if you ask me to use any pronoun aside from “he/she” or, if absolutely necessary, “they”, you can go home. Stop making your gender, that almost no one cares about, the center of attention. You can have respect, but you can’t demand I change my language for you.
In most settings I would be inclined to agree, but in specific settings, like the community this was originally posted in, acceptance and comfort is the point.
You may have seen this from World, but it was posted on blahaj.
In this particular instance, it seems less like you were approached on the street and told to speak differently, and more like some people were having a meeting and you walked in and told them to stop making a scene.
Excellent analogy at the end there.
Hm hadn’t thought of instances this particular way. Sure, if you’re part of a community that really wants to use all sorts of pronouns, go ahead. How you connect to society on a larger scale is a different issue… but that is kind of what federation is, though, right?
Your analogy is good, but I was more in the mindset of somebody at work demanding we all use neopronouns for them.
If xey really want a closed meeting, there’s an option to make a community local only.
I respect all people pronouns, but real quick here’s a list of people’s pronouns I don’t respect -op
I DON’T respect all peoples’ pronouns, but I respect the people - if they don’t want that kind of respect, so be it 🥲 it really is just about people asking me to change my language for them. I’ve done it many times, and I still hate it. It just feels wrong and bad. Because pronouns are not just like using a different name for someone after they have discovered a new identity for themselves, which I love and respect, it’s changing grammar. And grammar is hardwired into my brain. You don’t get to touch that. You can ask me to, and I will say “no” politely.
oops misread your comment.
sounds like you just don’t respect people unless it’s convenient for you.
(that’s not really respect)
careful hehe ‘op’ in the context would be understood by most to mean the OP of the post, aka Ada. i caught what you mean before i took any action but that probably explains a good chunk of the downvotes ur getting :)
Maybe reading the room isn’t your strong suit. This post is a position statement by an instance admin on its meta community, not a request for soapboxing from other instances’ users.
I get that now, but it just showed up in my feed on world, and I didn’t notice it was from blahaj. If threads get federated, how much must we consider their home instance as context for the conversation? As I said, I respect all genders and I think mainstream society is way too cruel to those outside the binary norm, but demanding neopronouns is just one step too far for me. I do think it’s better for me to stay out of this conversation on blahaj, though?
Here’s a neat trick: if you don’t want to engage with someone, just block that person. It costs 0€ and the rest of us don’t have to endure a days-long quarrel.
That’s what I do. I’ve got absolutely nothing against probably most of the people I’ve blocked. Just at a certain point if I see the same account over and over posting stuff I don’t really vibe with I’ll block them and just let the ones that do enjoy that stuff have at it.
Side note: I especially love the ones that will like rage comment in places like YT/TikTok on “woke” stuff for example then cry that the algorithm keeps showing them more like it. Like… My Brother in Christ, you made the sandwich.
You know, I actually want to talk to people, especially from non-mainstream movements, they usually are pretty interesting. And I think gender is a spectrum, and I think it’s really brave to express that openly when you don’t find yourself in the binary. I just hate neopronouns. I think they were a wrong turn a movement took a while ago, and that they are a hindrance for connecting with society.
You know what’s even worse for connecting with society? Actively discrediting other peoples existence within the queer community.
This is the exact same bullshit as “LGB drop the T” except it’s one step down. Neopronoun users hurt the whole queer community as much as trans people in general: they don’t, they’re a part of it.
One of the smaller benefits of these sorts of announcements is that they bring out people that just aren’t worth knowing from other instances who all but shout “I’m a piece of shit idiot!! Block me!!”. And that really helps save time.
You cannot claim to respect someone if you can’t recognise the simple reality of their gender and it’s expression. Assuming people using neopronouns are making it the centre of attention is just you being transphobic and a dick, be better.
You can’t demand I change my language for you
You’re admitting that you prefer being transphobic over putting in the minimum amount of effort
No, if someone transitions and suddenly goes by the other binary gender’s pronouns, that’s fine, all the more power to them. I will happily use those pronouns.
But don’t try and introduce new pronouns into my grammar. Because grammar is hardwired and I’ve tried adding neopronouns to it, and it’s a pain.
Also, I think you can absolutely ask people to use neopronouns, but you have to accept if they decline. Especially if they love and respect you and just don’t want the fucking pain of changing their grammar. It’s NOT “minimum effort” to start using hen or xen or something like that. It’s a fucking pain for most people. And you’re alienating them. If you want to be ostracized and die on this weirdest of hills, go ahead.
I don’t wanna because “it’s a pain”. Yep, you’re not an ally, you’re just being transphobic because that’s easier for you.
Being an ally takes effort. We have to unlearn these things in order to make the world better, if the rest of us can do it then so can you. You have been programmed by a patriarchal society to resist change for a reason.
Very good post, I agree with everything said.
However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don’t have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone’s username. I have one of the “user tags” set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it’s possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can’t figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.
lol, I fear this will happen more and more often because of how complicated federation is and how many don’t understand it.
The rule isn’t “Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned”. It’s “Respect peoples pronouns”
You’re allowed to make mistakes. You’re allowed to not know. What you’re not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.
but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj
It’s news to me!
ah I see. Thanks for the reply!
It’s news to me!
Well, in that case I assume the ‘drama’ was the issue from noncredibledefense and someone just got that and ShitJustWorks confused lol
Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I’ve literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I’m including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it’s incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they’re getting a “they” from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain’t checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it’s the most universally genetic anyway :3
Personally I use they/them until I get corrected on it. It’s my default.
It being my default of course means that a lot of the time I’ll keep using it even after being corrected. That’s not from a position of intolerance though, it’s from a position of habit.
And also given the amount of people I engage with online I’m not going to remember every person I interact with, especially given how sparsely I actually respond to people and my response time to people.
Basically y’all are a field of ever changing faces I’ll likely never see again let alone IRL, I’m going to stick to they/them for 99% of our interactions.
what about, it? though a issue would be sexism as people could use it to call women objects.
Hold on, I’m she/they.
Now can we discuss this FASCINATING topic??? Do we think the one ring would hold multiple ring value? Would Sonic turn invisible or just absorb it? How does the ring affect sonic if it is absorbed? What happens if he collects 100 One Rings? I have so many questions.
(adorable little Timmy voice) “He would turn into Sonic dot E X E and kill us all!!”
Battle Network intensifies
Holy crap! A
Megamanreference???Yeah… Pretty much my whole childhood Special Interest.
People remember the existence of the battle network megaman games, not just the platformers!?
Is the One Ring even categorically different from power rings?
What about would happen if the rings forged for man, dwarves, and elves (19 in all) were collected by Sonic along with the One Ring? Sonic could be like… a super ring wraith.
Then we put the Chaos Emeralds in the mix, and things get extra spicy.
It really depends on which sonic we are talking about, SEGA Genius Sonic, Sonic Adventures Sonic, one of the western animation Sonics, Anime Sonic, Live Action Sonic? If it’s Archie Comics Sonic then the power scale goes right out the window.
live action Sonic
or
blahaj.zone is better about it, but much of Lemmy even just defaults to “he”
This is the only reasonable way to handle this situation. I’m all about making sure people are comfortable, but making-up words and then getting offended when people don’t use them properly is bonkers. I truly don’t mean to offend anyone, but this is getting out of hand.
That’s a fair problem, Lemmy and the mobile apps need a feature where you can see peoples pronouns beside their names. Voyager doesn’t even let me see anything besides someones username and instance, even on the profile page so I can’t even look for their pronouns even if I wanted
They absolutely do not, lol. This is a problem for less than 1% of society. The incredibly overwhelming majority of people do not care at all about theirs or others pronouns. In fact, the majority probably still haven’t even pieced together what you guys are even talking about when the topic comes up.
This is a problem for less than 1% of society.
Yes, and? So if a minority is small enough then it’s okay to be an asshole to them?
And there’s 8 billion people on earth, 1% of that is still 80 million people that somehow don’t deserve respect?
The incredibly overwhelming majority of people do not care at all about theirs or others pronouns
Try calling a grown-ass man a ‘she’ and see how quickly he starts caring.
I’m a grown man, I couldn’t care less. I’m also bi, don’t care if you said I was something else because you’re a stranger on the Internet. And, I know you want to be a victim here, but not putting pronouns in apps isn’t “being an asshole to them”. It’s not wasting time and resources for an incredibly niche issue almost no one is concerned with. I’m not here to tell you I’m an attack helicopter and I’m not here to say your pronouns are invalid, but I am definitely going to stand by the fact that most people don’t think about this or care and it’s in no way necessary to add them to any apps.
Bisexual and transphobic, what a goddamn shame.
As far as I’m aware more than 99% of people have pronouns and most of them would prefer not being called by the wrong ones
Which is why “they” and “them” and “you” exist. If this WAS a big concern for the majority then you would already have pronouns in all the apps instead of not a single one. The fact it’s not there is the proof you need that most people don’t think about this until it’s brought up by you guys.
You might be a cis agender person considering how you talk about gender. Fascinating stuff imo.
Ah yes the great liberator of gender, putting labels on people. You’re such a cretin.
I know suddenly being told your experience isn’t universal might be scary. But cis people do in fact care about their pronouns. If you don’t, well, I’m sorry to say it, but you are part of what you perceive as less than 1%. Which btw, is most likely a lot more than 1%
The latest numbers coming out of the US say 5% of young adults identify as trans. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
It’s way over 1%, and it’s gonna get even higher.
Thank you for that link. I might have learned something new about myself.
Happy to be of service!
You could use Voyager’s user tagging feature to tag people with their pronouns
No they don’t. Don’t pollute my screen space with garbage.
We got names for that. It is hard adjusting to nonbinary people in a language that does not support nongendered pronouns but names and nicknames are sociacialy accepted and carry the same respect as a correct pronoun.
