I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
It’s funny that if you change Russia for Israel and Ukraine for Palestine suddenly the “pro-war” group become “anti-war”.
Only funny if you think it’s “a pro war” stance and not “Anti-civillians-getting-slaughtered-by-an-oppressive-outsized-imperialist-neighbor”.
Isn’t it the same Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine?
Remember that the original Canadian intent of the UN Peacekeepers was that they would forcibly create and enforce peace.
It was the USSR and the USA that objected to the concept.
A Canadian was also the principal author of the UN declaration on human rights, and another was the reason NATO is a political as well as military alliance. We just keep winning!
Ireland has peacekeepers between Israel and Lebanon right now. They wouldn’t be there if “create peace” was one of the missions.
Peace must exist, however briefly, and then the peacekeepers place themselves in harm’s way to keep the peace.
Extend the mission to militarily “create peace” and suddenly you are just NATO/USA. How can either side trust a peace that was enforced upon them and not call it a defeat, whose borders are disputed for eternity? Every nationalist who wants to stir sentiment can just say “look what the British/Americans/UN imposed on us”. Outside forces drawing borders is pretty much the cause of 90% of warfare, civil and otherwise, for the last 80 years.
Similarly if most countries have a mutual defence pact, no one country will be able to invade another without being at war with literally the whole world.
I’m afraid that mutual defense isn’t as iron clad as you think. If Article 5 of NATO ever gets triggered you’ll get a masterclass on weaseling out of obligations. It’s ironic because Ukraine may already be receiving the kind of support a full NATO member is entitled to.
It only works if you actually commit to it.
But imagine the implications if a country did not commit to it (bar an obvious one like Hungary or Turkey). They’ll likely get sanctioned, probably will have trouble entering any useful alliances for the next decade or so because no one trusts them anymore.
If one didn’t, sure. But what happens when NATO as a whole doesn’t defend Poland? What’s Poland going to do? Or even just Trump’s US?
The trick is that (Eastern) Europe is filled with NATO troops and material from all countries. You would need an extremely nasty retreat of these troops if you do not support (say) Poland. Also at the moment (officially) the US has stationed nuclear weapons in 6 European countries, and there are very likely more also in the form of submarines that are not known to the public. Retreating means leaving those weapons in Russian hands. Then again, maybe Trump does not care about that.
Article 5 was triggered by 9/11 and is the reason everyone followed America into Afghanistan
Unfortunately with Trump the US will try to weasel their way out. Europe knows too well what happens.
This does seem likely with Trump… but he’s also in bed with the military-industrial complex, which never misses a chance to get contracts.
I wonder how these people would feel if there were individuals that would argue for thieves to break into their homes and take it over.
“I don’t want anything of mine stolen! they broke in!”
“But sir, why don’t you want people to have a place to live in? Make peace with it!”
It’s more like you fight your roommate and his friends come over to bully you. You get some weapon once in a while through the window. Still you are on your own vs 10. Also from outside they instruct you to use your young children to fight.
Don’t forget… They broke into your house, took over your living room, killed 2 of your family members in there and said “Let’s make an election”. Surprisingly, they won the election in your living room, because dead people can’t vote and they were allowed to vote, too.
Just „take your land“?
Looks to me also like „destroy your culture“ and „torture, maim, rape and kill your friends and family“.
Well, they did say “Destroy you and take your land”.
Though I agree that “destroy” is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence.
Haha. That’s great.
If Russia stops fighting there would be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there would be no Ukraine.
At this stage, since they have fought so well, I’d guess there would just be a much smaller, much weaker Ukraine.
We will likely see this happen now Trump is president. He is too egotistical to not take revenge on them for not playing along with his quid pro quo back in 2019.
The Ukrainian flags in republican yards never meant a thing… They sold Ukraine out at the polls.
Literally repeating US State Dept. talking points.
This guy floating up to the sky when US State Department says that gravity is real
… and the WMD’s will be found any day now in Iraq General Powell.
I don’t think you understood the joke. Do you know the saying about a broken clock?
Do you do anything besides shitpost and deliberately misinterpret people?
Kicking the dogs passes the time.
And? The saying was popular before Blinken’s speech btw.
I can’t find an earlier source. And it’s not accurate:
Boris Johnson Pressured Zelenskyy to Ditch Peace Talks With Russia: Ukrainian Paper
In the weeks ahead of Johnson’s April 9 visit, high-level diplomatic talks held in Belarus and Turkey had failed to yield a diplomatic breakthrough, though reports in mid-March indicated that Russian and Ukrainian delegations “made significant progress” toward a 15-point peace deal that would involve Ukraine renouncing its NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Moscow’s troops.
Well said.
That includes only battlefield context. Truth is Russia will at the very best economically and politically fall into a 3rd world country level the moment it loses the war. More probably dissolve into smaller states = there would be no Russia as we know it today anymore.
Good. After what they’ve done, they don’t deserve to exist as a nation anymore.
Yeah. Let US the saint be world’s boss. Never killed a fly anyway.
You forgot the person standing to the other side saying, “But what about that time when America…!?”
I know it’s not relevant but it’s funny (and sad) how you can replace the two flags with Israel and Palestine and it still works.
And its not MAGAts and tankies backing it but, neolibs and centrist conservatives.
Only switch the Ukraine guy with a palastinian child.
I’m really curious how or why it works. Do they hate US so much that anyone against the US seems a hero to them, despite being off the same kind but pretending to be a communist/socialist?
There is rarely, if ever, support for Putin. What is more typical is a recognition the USSR was a better entity than both what it replaced and what replaced it. So there is usually the connection that the US is the reason Russia is the way it is, which is usually lauded as ‘USA bad’.
So even though America was the global superpower after the fall of the USSR: Putin, (or at least someone like him), was wanted in power. ‘Keep rootin for Putin’ wasn’t just a pundit book 20 years ago.
All in all when the goal is eradicating communism at all costs, you wind up with war mongering right wingers in their stead: and that’s the perspective every communist I have interacted with has come from.
A surprising portion of people in the northern hemisphere think that a person having lots of money is literally exactly the same thing as a person having lots of blessings from [deity]. They see that Russia is run by oligarchs, and that since those oligarchs command lots of currency, they are inherently chosen by [diety] to always be correct.
Who thinks that? Are we talking about the old Pharaoh’s of Egypt?
I’d say these two probably think something along those lines…
Okay… so this makes me wonder where the artwork came from before they put words over it. That donkey is jacked and has a very bright smile for a farm animal. Do you think the person who did the artwork had no idea what they were going to write over it, or just that they’ve got some closeted desires they haven’t figured out how to discuss openly yet?
Maybe it’s a Divine Donkey lol
I’m guessing it’s clip art.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
I notice this to be most prevalent amongst the Russian Orthodox people I know as well as Evangelical Christians, but it’s not limited to those.
I am curious about this as well. At least in some cases, it seems to be due to “alternate facts”, e.g., https://lemmy.ca/comment/13198294
Damn, that’s alternate as fuck 🤢
Are they saying that the U.S. was preparing Ukraine for war in 2014… Which Russia had started moving their forces in 2013 and started the invasion in February of 2014. It’s like how people try to say “well Russia wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine if Trump had still been president”… When Russia mobilized their troops and equipment and marched them there for the invasion while Trump was still President.
That was an… interesting read 😅
That’s exactly the reason (even if they don’t 100% admit it) for the communist parties in my country.
Im not sure about other anti-war people but I can speak for myself. Like how Assad was clearly evil so is Russia, their actions are absolutely inexcusable. However, I think it is a valid question to ask how much good does foreign intervention do? It didnt do much good in Syria or Iraq and I dont think its doing much good in Ukraine. At this point Ukraine is another US proxy, who exactly does that help?
Seems to me like foreign intervention just did a whole lot in Syria. Just not on Russia’s part.
Well, except Ukraine is a unified and largely homogeneous nation with no threat of extremism and factionalism if they either win or at least keep their sovereignty intact after the war. The Middle East and Afghanistan have completely different culture, history, dynamics and variables unlike Ukraine, which is why supporting rebels there proved more troublesome and complicated.
The Ukrainian government has banned political opposition, enaged in censorship, and even banned a religion. In addition they’re an extremely corrupt government, they’re so corrupt that under any normal circumstances they wouldn’t be allowed in the EU or NATO.
And just like that, they come out of the woodwork!
Pointing out Ukrainian censorship makes me a tankie? Or the fact that they’re an objectively corrupt government? Do you even know who you’re supporting or are you just supporting the popular thing™?
Usual Kremlin drivel. Somehow being a corrupt country makes it excusable to be invaded.
Ukraine is at war, any country at war would have censorship. The Allies in World War 2 also enforced censorship but are you going to say they deserve to fight the Nazis? Russia also has censorship even before the war, and now arrests anti-war Russians.
Why is it that those who bring up Ukraine’s “corruption and censorship”, never mentions Russia’s own corruption and censorship? As if being corrupt warrants being invaded. You are doing exactly what this meme pokes fun at: victim blaming. Accuse the enemy of which you are guilty of, am I right?
Ukraine did not “ban” a religion, they banned the Moscow-affiliated Russian Eastern Orthodox church for being openly pro-Putin. Ukrainians and Russians share the same religion: Eastern Orthodox. But the religion is more decentralised and many groups have their own country jurisdictions. Ever since the fall of Byzantine, the Eastern Orthodox set up shop in Russia and in surrounding areas. And ever since then the Russian Eastern Orthodox had been kissing ass of whoever is in charge in Kremlin. As someone mentioned, a priest on the Russian side even blessed nuclear weapons.
If you are not a tankie, you are certainly being manipulated to become a useful idiot. Always view things with a critical eye.
Every country does this. It is up to you to prove that this censorship is wrong. From what I have read banning a religious cult and pseudo Russian political parties is what any sane country would do.
Accusations of corruption can be leveled at every country. A lot of Ukraine’s corruption can be traced to Russian gangsters. Russia, just like Ukraine is incredibly corrupt only they have not tried to reform like Ukraine has.
The corruption is also woven into economics. For instance doctors are paid bribes because they don’t make very much money. Citizens of the Ukraine often feel it is their duty to engage in this because they want to pay doctors what they are worth.
This was a good read about Ukraine’s corruption and paints a very different picture about the corruption. It is really a cultural thing left over from the Soviet Union.
They banned a religion?
Oh, you mean they banned these guys?
I can’t imagine why!
For the same reason these guys now ban anyone in their ranks who talks about Christians being peaceful 😅
They banned the Russian Orthodox sect of Christianity.
The same one that blesses Russia’s nuclear weapons.
I’d ban such a dangerous cult too.
Yeah, I am inclined not to call that a ban on
a religionif it’s just a specific part of a religionI’d say it’s debatable if it’s the same religion as Christianity when they’re blessing nukes, but regardless, I was just explaining what they were probably talking about when they were saying that Ukraine banned a religion.
Yeah, I understand that, and regarding blessing nukes, they really went full Warhammer on it
Syria and Iraq didn’t ask for our help, Ukraine does. I think that’s also one of the reasons.
You can add Libya to the list. Slave trade has been booming there since Gaddafi was forcibly ousted.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
Speaking of money, that’s a whole lot of cookies they wanted me to accept at that website.
I kind of tapped out on paying attention to this conflict, I’m already losing enough sleep over the genocide in Gaza.
With the conflict in Gaza, my opinion is that a ceasefire would be best, followed by an abolition of the apartheid state by means similar to how the one in SA was abolished (forced by global divestment like that enforced by 1986 US anti-apartheid act, etc). On a moral level, this solution feels unsatisfying. So much land has been stolen from the Palestinians, and part of me wants them to fight and win it all back, so advocating for a peaceful resolution hurts. But I also know that realistically, continuing to pursue armed conflict will only result in more Palestinian deaths, and more loss of territory, so I reluctantly join protests in favor of a ceasefire.
I realize that the conflicts are different. Russia is much more powerful than Israel, the Palestinian ethnic cleansing has been going on for decades, etc. So I don’t know what to feel about the Ukraine conflict. The pro-peace POV I’ve already heard. Ceasefire, concede Crimea to Russia, Ukraine becomes non-NATO zone, and the killing stops. For the pro-war people in the Ukraine conflict, what are you hoping for, and what facts make you feel this hope is realistic?
The thing is sort of similar to the Gaza conflict. Who guarantees a ceasefire, who takes up arms to defend that ceasefire if necessary? Precisely there lies the difference. Russia is nuclear power and has veto power in the security counsel of the UN. Amy nation that were to guarantee Ukraine would inevitably get into a major conflict with Russia - a major military power. And because only Western nations are interested in guaranteeing Ukraine, if Russia were to violate the ceasefire - it would be immediately involve NATO and you’d have WW3. Now here’s a point that is similar to the Gaza conflict. Russia has a track-record of violating all contracts and agreements they signed. There’s the memorandum that forced Ukraine to return the nukes they had after the dissolution of the USSR- in return of sovereignty of Russia. There’s a signed allowance of Russia for Ukraine to join NATO and the EU from the early 2000s. And more than I can recall from memory.
While it would technically be possible to force Israel to do what the US/EU wants, by many means. It would be difficult to force groups such as Hamas, Hisbollah, the Houthis to do anything without Iran backing and enforcing such a deal. Something I highly doubt to happen, without Iran losing all backing by other countries. No one can force Russia to do anything besides possibly China, which they won’t. The US/NATO could as well, but that would mean direct military engagement, something everyone is desperate to avoid - because no one knows how sane Russian leadership would act in retaliation.
Frankly though I believe that all attempts to pacify the world right now are not in the interest of neither the parties in the Gaza conflict as well as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea. They are clearly showing over and over again with their hybrid warfare that any and all attempts at a peaceful solution would necessitate a believable threat of the US to actually dismantle the entire Russian military.
EDIT: lot of downvotes, no replies.
Lol your comment is currently 4 hours old, and you have a reply that’s 3 hours old. Maybe try waiting more than an hour this isn’t reddit. It might take longer to get a reply, but it probably won’t just be a stupid meme.
I don’t understand how other communists can defend Russia at this point. It feels to me like most of them forget that Russia is no longer a communist country.
They’re capitalists. Putin is often using christo-fascist tactics. He’s also pushing for Russian imperialism in very capitalistic ways. Also, Russia was 100 percent the agitators here.
Just because it challenges US worldwide hegemony doesn’t automatically make it good, boys.
Removed by mod
Seriously. Those dumb Iraqis who fought back deserved to die.
Tankies might as well be called CINOs — communists in name only. Their defining feature is reverence towards authoritarian leaders. They revere Putin and Xi as “strong” leaders and completely ignore how little their regimes have in common with the socialist workers paradise Marx envisioned.
My favorite is when they argue that China has billionaires and private property and a stock market because Marx said you have to go through capitalism to get to communism. Which… doesn’t somehow also apply to the West?
Gee I wonder who you could be referring to mmmmhhh gee I really wonder.
Tankies?
Sorry I dropped the /s somewhere
What makes you say they don’t think it applies to the West? I don’t follow your logic there.
Because if you tell them China is just as capitalist as the West, they tell you it absolutely isn’t and is a communist country.
Ok but China is absolutely not as capitalist as the west, and that’s an insane thing to say.
I’d buy that line if China wasn’t integrating those large businesses (albeit slowly) into the public sector, something the west is not doing, but rather moving to deregulate more and more (Thanks Trump! /s)
And yet it’s still not a communist country. I get that you want it to be a communist country, but it isn’t.
You won’t see me argue that China is communist, it’s socialist as it stands now with the stated goal of becoming communist
I’ll stick with “Cosplay Commies”.
I especially despise how Putin and Xi were seen as ‘strong’ leaders, but when shit hit the fan in the last 5 years, they just hid away from repercussions
Do you know what you’ve done!? You’ve summoned him! He’s like Beetlejuice, say three Marxist terms and he appears. Combie will be here soon.
Wait, why are tankies siding with magas? I’ve been intentionally away for a minute, what did I miss?
Did something major happen in the last three days? Or is this the usual redirection of hate after we’ve found something to rally around?
Maga-Communism is a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Hinkle
Removed by mod
What an insulting interpretation that yet again ignores Russian responsibility for this war. It was ONLY their decision.
Removed by mod
What do you mean?
If you keep feeding the troll we’ll end up with troll shit all over the lawn.
Your description of the tankie position doesn’t explain why they call for Ukraine to surrender like Russia isn’t the aggressor. Leftists in general do realize it’s a proxy war like you said, but we call for the invader to stop invading. Because, you know… The victim of an invasion surrendering doesnt usually lead to good outcomes for the victim.
Fash and red fash are basically the same thing loyal to different empires.
