Women still have to bear children, and pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body, which often results in several fewer years in the workforce, on average.
Unless that changes — or we start paying mothers with less experience more money — there will always be a gap.
Your links, especially the WEF link, support the correlation, but explicitly describe a confounding variable as being household work (especially childcare). And that’s consistent with the observation that the motherhood penalty has a different magnitude for different countries and different industries. All that suggests that a combination of household division of labor, parental leave policies (either employer policies or government regulations), and workplace accommodations generally can make a big difference.
None of this is inevitable or immutable. We can learn from the countries and the industries where the motherhood penalty is lower, or doesn’t last as long.
Wow. That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve read. You have contributed nothing to the discussion, and made us all measurably stupider in the process. Well done.
His primary argument was all about lifetime earning potential. That is not what salary refers to. So, his argument doesn’t actually apply to the allegation. Therefore, it is specious.
I can’t see where his argument was about lifetime earning potential. Seems to be just simply women with children make less money, which seems reasonable.
I also don’t see anywhere he even implied that salary and lifetime earning potential were the same thing. And salary would be reflected in lifetime earning potential.
What is your position? I’m not even certain what the point of your disagreement is.
It varies greatly depending on where you live. In rural, conservative areas women tend to make a lot less. On the other hand, some northeast and west coast cities have higher average salaries for women than men.
There are very strong lingering effects which mean women, on average, are paid less.
It’s especially hard on women in various countries where they’re now expected to both have a successful career and be the primary child caregiver. Which is as ridiculous as it sounds.
However, one example of advocacy from a cafe in my city of Melbourne Australia a number of years ago really rubbed me the wrong way: when a cafe decided to charge like 25% more to men (inverse of 80%). I was a close to minimum wage worker at the time (in Australia, before the cost of living skyrocket, so I wasn’t starving), and it annoyed me because if I went in, I would be asked to pay more because I was a man, never mind the fact I would likely be earning far less than many women going in there.
The wage gap is 100% real, and things should definitely be done to make all genders pay more equitable. But hell, the class divide is orders of magnitude worse, and we ought not forget it.
Sounds like it’s similar to here. I would have thought we narrowed the gap by now but apparently not. The child caregiver trends are definitely behind along with a host of other gender norms.
Lol that pricing scheme sounds great, easily a sketch comedy premise from Portlandia, BackBerner, SNL, etc
This. It’s a wilfully deceptive statistical misinterpretation implying that a woman working alongside a man in the same job is magically making 20-something percent less. If businesses could get away with saving 20-30% on their biggest ongoing expense (payroll) for employees in one half of the population, they would only ever hire people from that half.
When controlled for field, role, seniority, region, etc., the disparity is within a margin of error.
How come women are more likely to become Walmart workers than doctors compared to men? Here are some contributing factors:
Girls are taught to see doctors as men
Girls receive less pressure to excel in science
Girls are taught to be more squeamish while boys are permitted to make messes
Maintaining a professional career is harder without maternity leave
Employers may view the prospect of having to pay maternity leave as a business risk
Women may avoid academia due to a fear of not being taken seriously
Girls are discouraged from occupying positions of authority
Women may fear not being taken seriously by patients
Girls are often told not to worry about their careers and to focus on marriage instead
Sexism: A 2019 review notes that previous research has found that girls play outside less than boys. Some studies have found that caregivers treat girls differently from boys when it comes to managing risk, encouraging boys to deal with problems by themselves more often. This may mean girls feel less confident playing outside without supervision. Caregivers can also restrict girls from playing outside due to fears of assault.
The first national survey of play in preschool-aged children in Britain has found that from the age of two-years-old, girls are playing outside in nature less than boys.
Children need to play in the mud and get messy. It’s good for them. But girls are being discouraged from playing outside. And being able, psychologically, to deal with mess is an important life skill needed for lots of jobs. Including being a doctor. It’s better to learn these skills earlier rather than later.
It looks like the figure is similar in the US: plateaued at 83% a few years ago, currently at 82.
Incidentally, I’m not used to seeing “West-“ specified and was curious enough to read up. Didn’t realize there were still major social differences in the East. Thank you!
I seem to recall that was the figure like 15 years ago. Has it not improved in all this time?
Women still have to bear children, and pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body, which often results in several fewer years in the workforce, on average.
Unless that changes — or we start paying mothers with less experience more money — there will always be a gap.
I didn’t realize every woman you’ve ever met in your life became a mother.
Statistics are gonna blow your mind!
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
Your links, especially the WEF link, support the correlation, but explicitly describe a confounding variable as being household work (especially childcare). And that’s consistent with the observation that the motherhood penalty has a different magnitude for different countries and different industries. All that suggests that a combination of household division of labor, parental leave policies (either employer policies or government regulations), and workplace accommodations generally can make a big difference.
None of this is inevitable or immutable. We can learn from the countries and the industries where the motherhood penalty is lower, or doesn’t last as long.
Wow. That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve read. You have contributed nothing to the discussion, and made us all measurably stupider in the process. Well done.
Great work. With strong arguments like that you’re sure to discredit fascism and advance feminism!
“the arrival of children has a large and persistent impact on the gender earnings gap, reducing female earnings by 55 per cent, on average, in the 5 years following parenthood. We further show, using personal income tax data collected by the Australian Tax Office (ATO), that this gap improves only slightly but remains high in the 10 years following the arrival of children.”
https://www.weforum.org/stories/2022/05/reduce-motherhood-penalty-gender-pay-gap/
https://theconversation.com/the-motherhood-pay-gap-why-womens-earnings-decline-after-having-children-220207
Your entire argument is specious. Nobody but you made any reference to lifetime earnings. Also, you have admitted, quite directly, to being a fascist.
So blow it out your ass, idiot. Since everything coming from you is shit, anyways.
Could you help me understand where his argument is specious?
His primary argument was all about lifetime earning potential. That is not what salary refers to. So, his argument doesn’t actually apply to the allegation. Therefore, it is specious.
I can’t see where his argument was about lifetime earning potential. Seems to be just simply women with children make less money, which seems reasonable.
I also don’t see anywhere he even implied that salary and lifetime earning potential were the same thing. And salary would be reflected in lifetime earning potential.
What is your position? I’m not even certain what the point of your disagreement is.
I have come to the conclusion that their position is mental illness, because everything they’ve typed so far is non-sensical.
I don’t see the point of your rambling.
Salary does not equal lifetime earning.
It’s a blatant bait and switch.
However, I don’t give a fuck what you, or he, thinks…
It varies greatly depending on where you live. In rural, conservative areas women tend to make a lot less. On the other hand, some northeast and west coast cities have higher average salaries for women than men.
I think this may be because women are outpacing men in education in some areas, so it’s not based on gender necessarily but qualifications.
Yep, women are more likely to get a college degree.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/
Reverse Sexism >:O
Not sure where it’s higher outside of the field of sex work.
I believe certain job fields come much closer to being 1:1 as well, though I’ve only heard that anecdotally
There are very strong lingering effects which mean women, on average, are paid less.
It’s especially hard on women in various countries where they’re now expected to both have a successful career and be the primary child caregiver. Which is as ridiculous as it sounds.
However, one example of advocacy from a cafe in my city of Melbourne Australia a number of years ago really rubbed me the wrong way: when a cafe decided to charge like 25% more to men (inverse of 80%). I was a close to minimum wage worker at the time (in Australia, before the cost of living skyrocket, so I wasn’t starving), and it annoyed me because if I went in, I would be asked to pay more because I was a man, never mind the fact I would likely be earning far less than many women going in there.
The wage gap is 100% real, and things should definitely be done to make all genders pay more equitable. But hell, the class divide is orders of magnitude worse, and we ought not forget it.
Sounds like it’s similar to here. I would have thought we narrowed the gap by now but apparently not. The child caregiver trends are definitely behind along with a host of other gender norms.
Lol that pricing scheme sounds great, easily a sketch comedy premise from Portlandia, BackBerner, SNL, etc
To be fair, it was “optional” (but let’s be real, you wouldn’t want to be that guy). And done temporarily for publicity.
That stat wasn’t even real when it was published.
This. It’s a wilfully deceptive statistical misinterpretation implying that a woman working alongside a man in the same job is magically making 20-something percent less. If businesses could get away with saving 20-30% on their biggest ongoing expense (payroll) for employees in one half of the population, they would only ever hire people from that half.
When controlled for field, role, seniority, region, etc., the disparity is within a margin of error.
The data from that study didn’t even compare similar fields.
It compared a Walmart worker to a doctor lol.
It was a wild study.
How come women are more likely to become Walmart workers than doctors compared to men? Here are some contributing factors:
Girls are taught to see doctors as men
Girls receive less pressure to excel in science
Girls are taught to be more squeamish while boys are permitted to make messes
Maintaining a professional career is harder without maternity leave
Employers may view the prospect of having to pay maternity leave as a business risk
Women may avoid academia due to a fear of not being taken seriously
Girls are discouraged from occupying positions of authority
Women may fear not being taken seriously by patients
Girls are often told not to worry about their careers and to focus on marriage instead
You were clearly thinking of mechanical engineers, I get those confused all the time as well.
Seriously? What is this drivel. It’s not 1950 anymore.
Sorry. Drag forgot that sexism was abolished forever in 2016 when the United States elected a woman president
You are here providing a great example that sexism is still around.
Graduating medical classes have been majority female for 20 years now.
If anything, the user you responded to was demonstrating subconscious biases against female doctors lol
Way worse than that.
What? Lol
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/outdoor-play-children#why-it-matters
https://news.exeter.ac.uk/faculty-of-health-and-life-sciences/by-aged-two-girls-are-already-playing-outside-less-than-boys/
https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/03/why-women-clean-more-than-men-because-they-re-judged-for-the-mess.html
Children need to play in the mud and get messy. It’s good for them. But girls are being discouraged from playing outside. And being able, psychologically, to deal with mess is an important life skill needed for lots of jobs. Including being a doctor. It’s better to learn these skills earlier rather than later.
Did you notice in the part you quoted where it says ‘This may mean…’? This may mean your source isn’t that good.
Cool. Drag guesses that means they must have been majority male up until 21 years ago. That explains why most doctors were still male 15 years ago.
OK, chief.
In an ideal world it would be nice to be able to do that, but in our it’s just misleading.
In (West-) Germany it’s still 18%. Been more or less constant since 2006.
Source: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Labour-Market/Quality-Employment/Dimension1/1_5_GenderPayGap.html
It looks like the figure is similar in the US: plateaued at 83% a few years ago, currently at 82.
Incidentally, I’m not used to seeing “West-“ specified and was curious enough to read up. Didn’t realize there were still major social differences in the East. Thank you!