Currently downvotes are enabled on a trial basis, this was done by me to see if they can be enabled to prevent spam from rising to the top of communities, along with the fact that is another form of interaction/feedback.
However I’ve gotten some pushback for this and so I’d like to see the general consensus of this decision. Please put any comments/concerns in this thread, and please vote here: https://forms.gle/zqDxemJCiTAXJi5i9
the results of this poll and the comments will determine if we keep or remove downvotes again
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Enabled downvotes and place immediately got more argumentative and a bit more toxic. No, not want.
I too, as a person who has no feelings for men, have clicked posts for gay porn by accident. I too have come across posts which I did not prefer, even if they were concerning women. I, too, have seen some things which in general I do not like. In these cases—
I simply became more careful and started taking a look at the community name first. Secondly I started looking for communities whivh fit what I like better. Niche ones without exposure. A good sign. For the last, there are a number of ways for me to deal with it, like simply moving on. Blocking where maliciousness exists. Finding other communities. Et cetera.
Downvotes have some advantages over blocking. They:
- Indicate trends of spam (as @[email protected] pointed out).
- Allows minimizing exposure to unwanted content from a given account without blocking out exposure to all that account’s content. (Accounts may post a mix of content I do and don’t like. Blocking throws out the baby with the bathwater.)
- Help disambiguate the popularity of content vs. reach of content. (Relatively few upvotes compared to other posts could be due to community obscurity, or posting at a poor time of day. It doesn’t indicate whether the community likes the post, or how you should adjust your posting habits to increase appeal. Counting downvotes helps you understand how many total people viewed a post, and the percentage of those who appreciated it.)
- Are lower friction. (They take fewer clicks.)
No downvotes. People use it as a “this isn’t my fetish” button and everything even slightly niche gets sent to oblivion. Especially bad for gonewild posts where people’s self image gets involved.
Also using a Google doc for this poll seems like a bad idea since people who aren’t from this instance can vote
You are using “some people misuse a thing” as a rationale to get rid of the thing.
If someone posts fetish x on a vanilla community, they should get downvoted. If they post that same thing in a community about fetish x, then the community can simply be blocked by those so inclined.
If they post that same thing in a community about fetish x, then the community can simply be blocked by those so inclined.
The problem is the majority of people don’t actually do that. They just downvote it to oblivion. That’s a significant part of why they were turned off in the first place.
Believing that fetishes should be separated in their own corners and downvoted otherwise is an excellent reason to not have downvotes - or to just not post content in this instance anymore
Separating things into their own corner is literally the point of subs.
Unless a community explicitly has a rule excluding content, and the uploads are valid there, downvoting something just because you’re not into it just seems like entitlement to me. Its the same “reasoning” people use to get gay content outside of Rule34 or other general boards, because they find it “icky” (of course none of these people complain about lesbian content)
Having to enumerate every single rule on a sub would be horrific and more importantly preference can’t be written into rules. What a community likes and doesnt like is based on the voting system, thats the fundamental point of Lemmy and reddit.
Thinking you can post whatever you want and expect all the exposure without regards to a communities tastes just because it doesnt explicitly violate rules is entitlement.
Seems like the divide is between people who actually contribute to this instance and post content, versus those who don’t and want to decide what get seen or not. Question, when we are gone, are you going to start posting? Will you create and moderate communities? Or are you going to keep sitting and expecting poster to cater to your tastes?
Its pretty rich to sit on your ass, makes demands and still call others entitled.
I posted when this instance first started and there was nearly nothing. So yeah I would and did. I didnt complain about the down votes and wasnt demanding up votes either.
I’m entitled to nothing, posts or votes. You are entitled to nothing as well.
If they post that same thing in a community about fetish x, then the community can simply be blocked by those so inclined.
Yes, they could. But that’s not what’s going to happen.
This is the important part:
Especially bad for gonewild posts where people’s self image gets involved.
We don’t need a “go away, you’re ugly” button. That’s what blocking is for.
Hm… what if downvoting was weighted only 1/10th as much as upvoting? So a few downvotes here and there from people doing it wrong wouldn’t amount to anything in others’ view, but if a post is heavily downvoted due to being in the wrong community or low effort, that’s visible?
Maybe? I dunno. Turning off downvotes seems like a pretty simple solution. Trying to come up with complex ways to make it hurt just the right amount doesn’t seem like it’ll work in all cases.
It’s called fine-tuning, and if everyone gave up that easily, many domains would suffer, like medicine, architecture, manufacturing design etc. Don’t be afraid of something simply because the ideal fix is more complicated than 2+2.
by that same logic a use that sees content they don’t like on a community they do can block that user.
is there a problem with content being posted that doesn’t match communities right now? i haven’t noticed one. the biggest problem on this platform right now is lack of content. downvotes, or any tool for creating explicit negative social interaction or feedback can make a community more hostile and less inviting. right now i generally see almost no posts on any nsfw communities that should get downvotes that don’t just get taken care of by a moderator. right now we need to draw people in to posting content way way more than we need better tools to organize it.
the biggest problem on this platform right now is lack of content. downvotes, or any tool for creating explicit negative social interaction or feedback can make a community more hostile and less inviting.
Exactly this. We don’t have enough content to give users the tools to discourage posting.
I don’t see much reason to have them. Others have spoken of helping with spam. I haven’t noticed any spam on this instance.
You haven’t seen the new posters that suddenly show up, drop the same 2 pics in about 40 different places, then never post again?
Oh sure but I wouldn’t have considered that spam I guess.
I see a handful that have upvotes.
I don’t like downvotes. I post stuff here, if it gets downvoted it can fail and go below the level of visibility that garners it more votes. People will downvote for any reason that comes into their heads. It’s almost like random noise but it messes with my post’s path to its intended audience.
I don’t see what possible motivation I would have to keep posting when that is happening.
You aren’t entitled to exposure. Voting the good up and the less good down is the fundamental basis of sites like Lemmy and Reddit. As a content creator/poster it of course hurts when your stuff isnt enjoyed by the community, but its the decision of the users what gets big and what doesnt.
No, it’s you who aren’t entitled to content.
If I have to make an effort to do something it has to be rewarded. Else why do it?
You don’t wake up in the morning and whack yourself in the face with a teaspoon, do you? It wouldn’t happen because there would be no reward in it. Except for that one person in 100,000.
So without me, and people like me*, you ain’t up or downvoting anything because no on is posting.
*Unless you want to leave the posting to the bots…
Lol I’m sorry but you’re are entitled to nothing when posting. If people like it, great you get upvotes. No one is entitled to those votes though. If you were, then they’d be meaningless (or at least more meaningless haha)
Well I’m not going to post anything, so you’re not going to decide whether it gets exposure or not. So that’s that sorted.
Up to you.
We can’t afford to shit on the few posters we have.
Radovic is prolific - they post a tonne of content. If they are saying they don’t like the change, listen.
I am also being shat upon in the past few days by anonymous blanket-downvoter(s) and it’s not a pleasant feeling. Rather discouraging, too.
Posters need viewers and vise versa. One cannot function without the other. So no I reject your appeal to authority fallacy.
I don’t need viewers. I choose to share content with users that like it but if you think I won’t walk away from this instance over this and carry on with my life without looking back then you’re mistaken.
You don’t need viewers yet you’re up in arms about the -1 vote button coming back?
What you have to do to actually win this argument is to tell me why I should bother to post anything when people are downvoting it.
What would motivate me to service the needs of people that hate the majority of content?
I don’t care about winning against you or getting you to do anything, your opinions and actions after today are your own.
Suppressing down votes is something I disagree with, and I’m voicing those concerns.
I feel that downvotes serve an important purpose both in keeping out spam, but also in preserving the many-niches architecture common in porn. Without downvotes even more work will be put onto mods in order to make sure the content posted is relevant to the communities its being posted too. Take c/Hotwife which has recently had a few postings that have 0 to do with hotwifing. Allowing downvotes is an imperfect solution, but I think an important one.
What about people getting pissed over something (presumably, it’s hard to tell) and then going after people’s posts in other communities and rampage-downvoting everything?
This should be handled by (auto)mod tools, allowing good faith users to help filter non-fitting or low quality posts, and preventing bad actors from downvote fireworks.
There are possibilities to limit available downvotes either by throttling amount per time/community/instance/user, by demanding to have a certain “reputation” in the community/instance or by making downvote cost your own “reputation”.
None of the above is perfect, but IMO outright removing a right to disagree is against community interests.
Currently I can either leave a “harassment” comment: “wtf this is doing in this community”, make complain to a mod (if there is any active), or ignore the post. Neither help community grow stronger, I think.
It seems to me that most valid criticisms are better stated as a polite comment than a numb downvote.
To be fair, comparing to Reddit, Lemmy is still niche, let alone LemmyNSFW even nicher. However, without downvotes some communities lose track. Without growing bigger, I do not expect to see some niche NSFW communities here which are already niche on Reddit. With more posters Lemmy shall grow, does not matter if it’s slowly, but it should be steadily.
I think a lot of responses were correlating downvotes with censorship which is something I can agree with. I personally don’t want to see someone’s dick in gonewild but I know it’s for someone. Maybe we can have a tagging system that user can filter what they don’t want to see. But I don’t care if downvotes comes back or stays away because I’ll just block the accounts that shows things I don’t want to see.
Currently downvotes are enabled on a trial basis, this was done by me to see if they can be enabled to prevent spam
There’s a bunch of spam from a user called “BravoIsabella” that has positive upvotes, and a grumpy post from one of the AI communities saying “mystery downvoter show yourself”.
Oh and the “mystery downvoter” post got, as of this moment, a -11. In a new community with 5 subscribers. It basically means a gang of people are just going around and downvoting everything I post. It’s no longer about artistic differences or anything, it’s a vendetta.
And frankly, I am not here for this type of shit. I’ve put a lot of time and effort into creating art and sharing it, including creating new communities. But this gang of self-appointed anonymous vigilantes is really making me reconsider whether it’s all worthwhile.
Sorry about the whining. But since the admin asked how people feel about downvotes, that’s how I feel.
It’s shitty. I appreciate your posts. Here’s hoping OP turns off downvotes and we can go back to the way we were.
Thanks!
Yeah, I posted this. Somebody or a number of somebodies are mass now downvoting nearly everything I post. Presumably, they have some beef but they should have stated it openly and we could have discussed it. Instead they are just blanket-bombing me.
Frankly, it’s the sort of thing one expects on reddit. But this is supposed to be a better sort of place?
I was for disabling down votes the last goaround wrt this topic, and I’m of the same opinion.
LemmyNSFW hasn’t grown much more in the past year and this will just drive away more posters (of which there aren’t much left) imho
I personally believe downvotes can be of use, but that would require a much, much larger userbase than what Lemmy - as a whole, and also LemmyNSFW - has. Maybe the biggest stances could afford to have downvotes (though from what I’m aware, plenty of them don’t) but in NSFW I could easily see a few people with bad intentions deciding what gets or doesn’t get seen in smaller communities.
The average activity in non-niche communities of NSFW is also much smaller than their Reddit counterparts, plus the fact that - from my experience - there’s quite a few mods missing, inactive for several months to +1 year, and I’m not sure what one would do in case of brigading.
Unfortunately you can’t really stimulate people to comment, which really would’ve been a boon to uploaders
when it comes to harassment or brigaiding please report it to me and I’ll take care of it, if mods for a community are inactive
Disable down votes. Its nothing more than a Tool for Trolls.
I really don’t think anything has fundamentally changed with the community or platform since the decision to remove downvotes in the first place. I just don’t think the population of Lemmy as a whole is large enough or mature enough to use them in a responsible manner and it will continue to be used as a “this isn’t my fetish” button rather than any indication of quality or community relevance just like before.
I agree that the spam problem has gotten worse over time, but I really don’t see downvotes doing very much to fix that. Most of it is from content sellers. They only need one post to do well to get their visibility and they almost always get at least that much so they still end up rewarded for the behavior in the end.
Agreed with this. Lemmy is too low volume to need them.
Every downvote on pro-downvote comments should count as a vote for re-enabling. Clearly they’re okay with downvotes, at least when it suits them haha
If 10 people downvote 10 pro-downvote comments, your algorithm would count that as 100 votes against downvotes. Didn’t think that one through, did ya?
Shoot you found the flaw in my system.
I changed my mind. I was pro downvote but I just looked at the new community list, saw one I liked, and then saw that a lot of the posts that fit the theme just fine have been downvoted for no reason. The mod is clearly upset about it also.
So yeah, please turn downvotes back off.
Removed by mod
I can see a lot of pros and cons, and I don’t think we can know what is best without a longer-term trial. There’ll be some trolling and harassment that comes with it, which is really bad, but also it allows user filtering of spam and junk posts, which is good. Hopefully there’s less of the former and more of the latter.
How do you know that there was no reason behind the downvotes?
True. I mean no discernable reason.
Yes
