I’ve had people telling me that I have “blood on [my] hands” because I’m voting for Harris. It’s insane. These people have no fucking concept.
If Harris wins, it will be by razor-thin margin. If she loses, trump wins. If trump wins, the genocide will get cranked up to 11. So voting 3rd party means even MORE “blood on my hands” than a Harris vote.
At least with Harris, there’s a CHANCE she can be reasoned with and stop the bloodshed.
These “Harris = genocide” people are liars, just trying to get trump elected - to sabotage this country.
Even if that 1 to 10 scale was in magnitudes (10^n), 11 would still be an understatement for what Donald Dump would encourage Israel and Russia to do.
There is a world where abstaining could be a reasonable approach. That world probably disappeared before I was born.
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It’s all the fault of the Democrats. If they had run Bernie he would have been voted in and we wouldn’t be here.
The fact that Bernie endorses Harris is meaningless, because he’s not a real Socialist.
Things I’ve heard today on Lemm.ee
To be fair, Bernie would have won in 2016, and I do blame Clinton for Trump winning in the first place.
Didn’t stop me from voting for Harris though in an actually important election. Just glad it’s not Hillary i’m having to hold my nose over.
Biden got more votes in primaries than all the other candidates combined. That’s kind of how popularity works.
People on the internet like to pretend that US has more progressives than it has, but all the statistics show that even the most popular progressive candidate can’t get enough support to win primaries, so chances of him winning the general election were even more slim.
Unless that will change, best we can hope for is a competent centrist.I’ve heard the “progressives” going on and on since high school. According to them the entire nation is a powder keg primed to blow up into glorious revolution any day now. Any day now…
I mean, they might be right but not for the reason they think and definitely not by the people we hope. “It could happen here” and all that
Ahaha, you had me terrified for a sec there.
B-but Bernie is an independent and not in any party. Therefore the democrats can’t really run him.
Who on .ee are you seeing comments like this from?
I’ve never seen a fellow .ee like this. Curious to hear what communities it’s on
I haven’t done the math. Assuming full support, is there a 3rd party candidate on the ballot in enough states to actually win?
No. Because even if they carried 100% of the vote in a state, the delegates can and most likely would just cast their votes for one of the major parties.
Do you mean the electors? Delegates are part of the nomination process, not the general election. The electors for a party are chosen by that party, then the voters cast votes for the electors. It’s unlikely that electors pledged to third parties would be faithless, as they probably deeply identify with the party ideals.
Stein and Oliver both do, though that’s certainly not going to make a difference in their actual chances
Nope. The Green party’s got their candidate on the most states’ polls, and they only managed to get 38 states. Granted, it’s still mathematically possible, considering the threshold is 270 votes, and the states that have Stein on the ballot comprise 440 votes… but still. Would be incredibly, almost impossibly difficult.
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If it’s “probably impossible” then can you explain why Alaska and Maine have already been successful implementing electoral reform? Why are several states working towards getting rid of First Past The Post voting right now?
It’s not impossible. This reform is possible at the state level. We don’t need an act of God from congress to make this happen. It’s already happening, and it can happen in your state to!
The last time a 3rd party candidate had an actual shot (and it was a looooong shot at best) was in 1992 when Ross Perot ran. He split the R vote badly enough that it handed the election to Clinton.
So long as we’re using first past the post a 3rd party candidate has a vanishingly small chance of doing anything other than helping elect the opposition.
Yes, I was there and that’s not what I was asking.
Admittedly, watching PR play out across the rest of the world kinda scares me. Israel is paralyzed into a destructive war because the ruling party is in a coalition with a few crazy extremists who will bring down the government (and thus expose Netenyahu to criminal trial) if their increasingly wild demands aren’t met. Germany’s having a clusterfuck of a time etc.
While there would be different parties, imagine the horribleness of a PR system right now in America. You could easily see a scenario where RFK acts as kingmaker and gets to demand whatever from trump or Harris. Given that trump would sell his children (maybe sub Melania for Ivanka) for the presidency, who knows what insanity would ensue? And there would be no real mechanism between the election and the next one to reign them in.
I didn’t think there was anything scarier than a trump presidency until thinking that one through. Uggggh.
And the lesson the Republican Party learned from that was to support the Greens—or any vaguely left party—hard.
It’s a 2 party system. Any 3rd party added takes away from either side, which can often swing elections. The opposing party will even sometimes support 3rd parties just to increase their chances of winning.
If you want 3 parties, change the system; or else you are just helping the person you want the least get elected.
I’m not even convinced it’s even real leftists posting this stuff. It often seems like astroturfing. Not only would fake leftists possibly sway undecided voters, but they also tarnish any positivity the left deserves. Win-win for the right.
Dealt with someone ostensibly from the UK advocating for not voting and after being pressed repeatedly finally worked their way down to “I’m not voting because I can’t”.
Actual foreign election interference, and the UK has some notable Russian ties. Wouldn’t be surprised if that rube has ties to Russia or is actually on a ruble payroll
Russian
Comrads he’s on to us. Let’s shove caviar in our butthole for stealth!
Ha, I know exactly who you’re referring to!
I’m a real leftist who is not voting this US election
...
I’m not an American citizen.
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Hang around them long enough. They will slip. They inevitably use right wing colloquialisms.
I’d like to think you’re right.
But I have heard borderline stuff like this in real life from people whom I know are solid progressives. (Admittedly, these are folks on my soccer team who are almost 2 decades younger than me. I can’t imagine what ending their teens during a pandemic was like so I kind of expect their politics to be wildly different.)
Astroturfing exist to poison the minds of on lookers. If useful idiots didn’t adopt the warped logic they wouldn’t astroturf.
It blows my mind that people are dumb enough for it to work but in an era of razor tight electoral margins, even a few idiots can matter.
“Borderline” is entirely different. Voting for Harris while being salty about it is a perfectly reasonable thing real progressives should do, and it’s exactly the opposite of what these astroturf third-party propagandists are calling for even if the (alleged) sentiment is adjacent. That “border” is a knife edge and the difference between a genuine progressive and a[n effectively] pro-Trump useful idiot comes down to which side of it they fall off.
This shows how absolutely broken the American voting/party system is though.
That’s absolutely true and very well put. Doing the right thing and being happy about it are two very different beasts.
Thank you!
Konnichiwa.
I understand you are very concerned about people voting 3rd party. Considering our broken First Past The Post voting system, I get it.
Did you know that alternative voting systems could alleviate all your worries about people who wish to vote outside the two party system? People could be free to vote how they wish, safe in the knowledge that their vote would still count against the Republicans.
How we vote us controlled at the state level, which means we can pass this much needed reform without federal intervention. Actually, some states have already passed legislation doing away with First-past-the-post voting, and even more are in the process of passing it! Exciting times no?
So, in conclusion, I hope you stop by my ask lemmy Post to discuss your post election commitment to replace FPTP voting in your state.
If achieved, you wouldn’t have to worry about 3rd parties anymore and your fellow citizens would be involved and contributing to the poltical process.
If you’re not in a swing state, and Harris is going to win your state easily, it’s fine to vote for a third party. If there’s even a slim chance she is going to lose your state, you can’t justify it. Harm reduction, guys.
harm reduction has a specific meaning. voting is not harm reduction.
There he is
There is no such thing as “not a swing state” in this election. Take it from me, a Georgian: in 2020, my state wasn’t a swing state until all of a sudden it was. If people here took your advice, the Democrats would’ve lost the Senate that year.
I’m in Washington. The Dems are not losing Washington. You’re in Georgia. The Dems stand a good chance of losing Georgia. That’s the difference.
I think people forget what it’s like to not live in a swing state. I haven’t seen an ad for a presidential candidate all year.
No. Your vote still counts. Don’t throw it away on a third party “just because.”.
Vote third party in your local elections, where they actually can do something. Get them into the system. Do not waste it on a zero chance presidential election.
Voting for the Dems, a centrist party, in a non swing state, IS throwing your vote away. It will not make a difference and you’re not expressing who you really support. The point of voting is (in order) to (1) reduce the terrible shit that’s happening in our country and (2) to express your political preferences. If you’re in a swing state you cannot do (1) by voting, and if you vote for the Dems you cannot do (2), assuming you’re not a shitty centrist.
got invited to a 2016 watch party my a political junky friend. room full of people talking about how awesome it was that hillary would just win so they got to pick their dream 3rd party and make a statement with their vote. i didn’t even stay to watch my state get called. they were crushed by the realization that so many people were in fact exactly who they’d said they are. couldnt watch them experiance that, couldn’t find any sympathy to offer them.
Those people didn’t even look at a poll (which were actually fairly accurate that year)? They didn’t even check to see if Hillary was within ten points of losing their state (a greater margin of error than any modern polling miss)? That’s on them. That’s not what I’m advocating here.
they did though? this wasnt a room full of people still amped up becauee they’d just learned about the spanish civil war, or that anarchism isnt random acts of chaos. the party i attended was a room full of people who understood the electoral college well enough to make their own bingo style drinking game from it. we all got printed game sheets when we arrived. people who’d not voted for nader because they knew the price of that. everybody though the corpo democrats would show up. they thought a lot of republicans would vote for the overqualified lady who didnt smile enough inside that private voting booth when none of their friends could see. they all thought we were done with the klan until they watched an actual klansman winning. the fucking klansman is right there running again, we already watch how this thing goes.
If it’s meaningless, it’s meaningless either way.
The important fact here is that strongholds can, in fact, fall. Especially when people stop guarding it because it never fell.
No.
As a Californian I’d have agreed with you except I think even a vote here signals something we need: the dire need to get rid of the electrical college. If Harris wins the national popular vote 60-40, it’s even more obvious how busted it is. She wins Senate and House? You might see change. At least, as likely as a 60-40 win, lol.
That said, let’s be honest, Green hasn’t deserved a vote in decades. I really wish they’d try smaller races they could win and build momentum.
an active genocider running with the policy of continuing it getting 60% of popular vote will be the most shameful thing in our history.
Even in your hypothetical, Trump getting ~40% of the popular vote in that scenario is more shameful.
The mindset of the US “left” is that americans life worth more than foreigners. It’s totally different than the US “right” who think only white matters. /s
Sending an electoral college message is a decent argument. I’m not persuaded about the house and senate argument though. In my case, I may not vote for Harris, because as somebody from Washington, she’s not gonna lose Washington. But I’m voting for a bunch of downballot Dems because they’re better progressives on a bunch of issues that Harris is not a good on. If it were even within fifteen points in Washington I’d vote for her, but I don’t want to vote for genocide if I don’t have to.
It helps I don’t see it as a pro-genecide vote, I guess. It sucks you can’t that pride in casting a vote for someone who seems like a genuinely good candidate on many other issues. Not that the situation in Gaza isn’t genecide, but that it’s probably not as easy as people think to wane ourselves off Israeli support. After all, Harris is clearly very calculated and rational in her stances and it’s clearly better calculus to disavow Israel unless there’s something we don’t know. I trust her to try and make the choice that leads to less death.
If I had to guess, Iran probably scares those in the know and Israel is being used as a counter measure. Recent escalation suggests as much. After Iraq, we don’t exactly have a lot of support in the region and after Trump tanked our deals with Iran, they probably have nukes by now or are damn near close. But that’s just a guess.
Of course, I’m not trying to sway you, an inconsequential voter. Just, it seems unfair to assume anyone supporting Harris is somehow pro-genecide. Hell, my number one issue is education and that’s not even on the board!
Tiiiired of the same loser rhetoric of voting for the lesser evil of two consistently deteriorating parties.
Dummies, where will it end? Put these corporate cock suckers on notice. Do not legitimize their rule with your lips.
End the duopoloticial tyranny. Used to be whig party vs democratic party. Used to.
It will end when a democrat gets rid of first past the post. Here’s why:
You don’t end the duopoly by voting third party. You end it by organising between elections. But it’s so much easier to virtue signal now and then lay back on the couch for the next 3.5 years plus you get the smug sense of self-satisfaction!
Well we tried that by demanding proper primaries and putting non genocide candidates on the ballots. And we got called being Trump shills for that. We also got called Trump shills for saying Biden is clearly too old for office. If it wasnt for Harris to replace Biden, the race would already be over.
Deine bisherigen Posts haben nicht gerade den Eindruck erweckt, dass du in diesem Kontext von “wir” sprechen solltest - bist du in den USA wahlberechtigt?
I have raised my voice to push voting eligble people to do so. Unfortunately the US has so much power that non US citizens also need to form opinions and raise their voices, as little effect it has.
No one called anyone a Trump shill for supporting progressives in down-ballot elections. If you’re just talking about the start of the presidential election cycle, that’s too late.
Also the last democratic presidency has sucked a lot less corporate than previously.
What were you doing? Clearly you understand the faults of the voting system.
Let me rephrase that: why are you okay with people being underrepresented by the voting system?
What bothers me about the people taking the bit of time and effort to go vote for 3rd parties is that there’s really no point to it. Making sure your own vote doesn’t matter is insane to me when voting isn’t mandatory. They could’ve just done nothing and achieved the same outcome.
They only be a statistical footnote that almost nobody will notice.
Even if a notable number of people voted 3rd party, they’re still going to be treated the same as those who didn’t vote at all, because in a practical sense, thats what they are.
Why are you encouraging people not to vote?Edit: sorry I thought you were a different poster. I am not trying to spam you multiple times
Any time you vote for a candidate that loses, this is the case. And of your preferred candidate wins in a landslide, every extra vote they didn’t need might as well have been blank.
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Voting for one Party no matter what their policies are, is what makes your vote not matter. You signal blind loyality and no red lines. So the Party would be stupid to care about you.
They care about the ones willing to withhold their vote and money. That is how AIPAC helped shape both US parties into being pro genocide. Play both sides and punish the one that may “step out of line”
You saw how Dems panicked when there was the uncommited movement? Instead of seizing the moment and turn them into a non genocide party, people vigorously defended being pro genocide as the safer option. Just like people denied Bidens dementia until it was possible to deny. And switching from Biden was actually helping the Dems chances.
At the end the people who opposed pushing the Dems by making credible threats to their voting base, did not only accept genocide this way, they also helped Trump tremendously by preventing the Dems to switch to the majority platform of being against genocide.
The majoriy of Americans say they are against genocide. Some of them know that genocide has to be a red line. By preventing the Dems from becoming a non genocide party, it was prevented to unify the non far right side of the political spectrum to win in a landslide.
Brother, I’m voting against the party with the absolutely insane and oppressive declared policies. What are you talking about?
I’m happy for those people who have enough privilege to sit this election out; but to even try and imply that the two dominant parties are even similar is an insult when only one of them wants to fucking kill me.
There is plenty of black and arab people, who are at an immediate threat by Trump too. But if it becomes normal to murder them abroad it is also easier for it to become normal at home.
Trump and his followers are the ones fostering hate and resentment though. America needs a break from that jackass.
This is only true under a better voting system than first past the post. In first past the post, you’ve got a dumbass set of broken game rules where once two parties get big enough, they become the main and only characters, and all third parties can do is debuff one of them so the other one wins.
It’s such a reliable thing that the two parties often try to fund third parties the other party’s voters will like.
Obligate games blow ass.
shortsightedness is a stubborn affliction
I imagine that folks on both sides believe this comment is about the other one.
What other side? America is a one-party country with a republican cancer metastasizing.
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Good point. Same goes for fake news. Let’s address the fear and anger on both sides first, only then we can get some facts in.
Here are two candidates, and you vetter like one of them, because that’s all you get, otherwise we couldn’t call ourself a “democracy” anymore.
But Palestine hurr Durr
You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in? You can kiss Ukraine goodbye, and probably hong kong too. This is nothing.
2016-2020 was the beta test. If this goes into production we’re all fucked.
You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in? You can kiss Ukraine goodbye, and probably hong kong too. This is nothing.
Tankies would love that, though.
You dumb fuck yanks should have done something about trump 4 years ago. But you needed him as a scapegoat to direct people’s gaze off your war crimes.
You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in?
It seems like such a basic concept; trump means more dead Palestinians. How can someone simultaneously claim to support Palestinians and advocate for more dead Palestinians?
Nobody is advocating for that. That is the most vile claim. We tried to get the Democrats to become a non genocide party. There was plenty of time before the election. Instead we got attacked with the same sentiment like now.
The people accepting that genocide is the acceptable baseline and opposing the push for a non genocide option are the omes advocating for it.
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Advocating against voting for Democrats, no matter what the particular language, is advocating for actions that will increase the chances of Trump getting elected, of Republicans having majorities and of Israel’s further escalation in Palestine, in addition to all the other bad things Republicans will do.
The time to move Democrats on the issues is not now. Those times were during the primaries (in which I voted uncommitted on the presidential level and for pro-palestinian candidates on other levels) and after the election through things like lobbying.
If there are particular third-party candidates who have any reasonable chance of winning rather than being a spoiler (I don’t know of any), it’s reasonable to advocate to their electorate that one vote for them instead of the Democratic candidate. However, if one supports Palestinians and opposes genocide, the best vote in the presidential election and in most national or state elections on November 5 is for the Democratic candidate. That’s not a “vote blue no matter who” opinion or an “all you need to do is vote for the Dems” opinion. It’s harm reduction in the short term so that we can ensure that there actually are medium and long terms for as many people as possible.
What primary?
I echo the sentiment (regarding Trump being a much, much worse outcome), but you can already “Kiss Hong Kong goodbye”. It’s part of China, they have cracked down, and the two systems has been reduced to like 1.5 systems ahead of schedule.
I am genuinely curious what you think either presidential candidate would do about this, considering they will continue to espouse the One China policy. Where they might differ is in their support of Taiwan, whose status is much more murky.
Hong Kong though? Pretty sure that ship sailed once the UN decided: no Empire no longer, and the 99 year lease came to an end.
Ope sorry I meant Taiwan
Lol, yeah this makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying 😅
What you guys are planning to genocide chinese people too?
Nah china already has that under control with their summer camps and organ harvesting
The concept that voting for a third-party candidate is somehow “helping” one of the major party candidates is based on the assumption that the third-party candidate’s voters would have otherwise voted for one of the major party candidates.
Jill Stein was endorsed by David Duke (KKK).
I’m sure it has to do with Duke being a really conservationist, nature loving guy who wants to support renewable energy.
And Stein investing in fossil fuels and tobacco must be because she wants to heroically rob the execs of their money.
“The second challenge to a third party is both statistical and tactical. Duverger presents the example of an election in which 100,000 moderate voters and 80,000 radical are to vote for candidates for a single seat or office. If two moderate parties ran candidates and one radical candidate ran (and every voter voted), the radical candidate would tend to win unless one of the moderate candidates gathered fewer than 20,000 votes.”
2016 had a historically high 3rd party voter turnout (6%):
2020 only had 2% 3rd party voter turnout. But no that can’t be the reason a soon wanna-be dictator will take over your country again soon (and proceeds to fuck up the world). Nah…just show it to genocide Kamala. Your voice matters. Vote for Jill Stein. She’s so cute, isn’t she?
If anything, lefties shouldn’t be a single issue voter at all. They should be picking someone who might move toward that direction and have the chance to win, not abstaining.
As the famous word goes: Evil triumph when good men do nothing. You can’t abstain or do protest vote and expect anything to change under Trump, that single issue you hold so important will get worst, or even impossible.
Well this “single issue” of land stealing, white supremacist subjugation of a people on their native land, ethnic cleansing and genocide, has only gotten worse with every election.
If we look at AIPAC they arent powerful because they influence who wins. They are powerful because they onfluence who looses.
That is why being pro genocide remains a staple of both parties policies. The only way to change that, is to punish the side that claims to not be pro genocide generally, so it has to become against genocide specifically.
And we had one year of trying to do that before the election, where people here and in othernplace vigorously defended being pro genocide, as challenging that before the election would be bad for the election.
We saw with Biden stepping down that challenging the dementia candidate was actually beneficial for the Democrats election chances, despite the same denial and backlash over pointing out Bidens failing mental capacities.
Now i am sure that these sentiments of immediately attacking people who wanted the Democrats to become a non genocide party when it was still possible to achieve that for the election, were stirred by AIPAC and other establishment actors, who would rather have Trump win than end genocide or get to meaningful progressive politics like proper healthcare and workers rights.
So women needlessly dying of miscarriages and trans people getting locked up in camps is fine so long as the democrats are punished.
Mass deportations with sketchy legal grounds are also fine because the democrats will totally learn their lesson this time.
Wake the hell up. You’re only punishing innocent americans. The democrats will be FINE if trump wins.
Can’t believe I missed you when I blocked all your little friends.
Why do people feel the need to publicly announce blocks?
Block me as well. Do not forget the blocking user ceremonial reply to my comment!
Okay, sure, but let’s say Trump win and you successfully punish Democrats, the results are…you also punished abortion right, people of colour, the lgbtq community, american with middle-eastern origin, worsening the immigrant deportation, and lastly, eliminating the chance of palestine-israel ceasefire and basically confirming the annexation of Gaza and West Bank. Isn’t that the thing you most concerned with? That doesn’t sounds like left-wing thinking to me at all.
I leave out a lot of thing, it’s really up to you to figure out what you will lose. I’m not even from US and another Trump term will undoubtedly affect the world in one way or another.
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Ho Chi Minh knew all about America’s long history of genocide and slavery.
When the time came to work with the American OSS to fight the Japanese he helped the Americans.
Any questions?
Yeah one question, what did America do to Vietnam after that?
What were the Japanese doing then?
Are you saying we should allow the genocide in Palestine to continue, and add suffering in America too?
Im saying using Vietnam as an example why working with the US is good is the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard.
Fine, give me a better example.
I’m not married to that analogy.
I could talk about the women and former slaves who worked for politicians who couldn’t promise them the vote.
Would that get the point across to you?
I think it was less, “the US is good” and more “one way or another someone is gonna fuck you over, sometimes the only choice you have is who”
Most of what you say is exactly correct. The thing is, you have drawn a little outline of a box around this one situation, and allowed its glow to obscure all else outside the line.
Make the box bigger. Let the other issues that still count and effect people be inside the box.
Trans people need you to vote Harris, because they’ll be in extermination camps under Trump. Women in Mississippi whose pregnancies are going to tragically go bad next year need you to save their lives by voting Harris, because Trump will put the final nail in the coffin on abortion. Plenty of people will go homeless under Trump who would have hung on with higher wages and monopoly busting under Harris.
Being a single issue voter is a luxury that assumes everything else is basically solid, so we can press the one issue extra hard and let the rest of the garden tend itself a bit.
We are in the exact opposite of that situation in the 2024 presidential election. Dont confuse the shittiness of the whole situation with relatively much much better choice of Harris over Trump.
Jay Shapiro explains this well in a video:
TL:DW?
In this video, I challenge the dismissive label of ‘single-issue voting’. I break down how a focus on an issue like genocide reveals deeper political and moral stakes, rejecting the idea that elections are merely a choice between the ‘lesser of two evils,’ and offering my reasoning—and hope—for refusing to play the game.
I feel bad for Americans and kids in general. More fascist radicalization pipelines pop up every single day. The money and effort spent must rival most countries GDPs. Just the media organizations alone…
Some days it can feel like standing at the foot of a mountain watching the entire mountain side crashing down.
Then I realize it’s just people. People we can step up to. And slap in the damn face.
I don’t need any mental gymnastics or long winded explanation. Both of the major party candidates have parts of their platform that are deal breakers for me. So, I will exercise my right to vote for someone that more aligns with my values.
