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Look at this point I know more women with unrealistic relationship expectations than men.
The world has changed a ton in the past twenty years. There’s been a lot of discussion about toxicity in regards to male gender roles, and fundamentals changes to what’s acceptable for a man to expect in a relationship.
There hasn’t really been that discussion in women. While many women have perfectly fair expectations, there are a lot of women who will expect a man to completely reject gendered expectations of them, while having a ton of expectations of a man. It’s almost a joke among my single male friends that the more vocal someone is about being a feminist, the more likely they’ll expect you to pay for the date.
There’s also a subculture of women behaving in ways that would be considered objectively toxic a decade ago, but have been normalized due to the whole oppressor/oppressed culture war narrative. I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around. I’ve seen women push their husband into an “ethically polyamaorous” relationship that always is extremely one sided. I’ve also seen a lot of women with an “I can do better” mentality that nobody in a relationship would have to put up with.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything. I’m just saying I think we need to have the same conversation around how women behave that we had in regards to how men behave.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything.
You obviously aren’t, but it speaks volumes all on its own that you felt there was a need to state that, only bolstering your other points about this one-sidedness.
Idk I basically stopped talking about this in mixed gender company in real life. My guy friends get it, my SO gets it, and a few close female friends get it. However most women I meet would treat a statement like this as an attack on them, even if they themselves aren’t engaging in this type of behavior.
That literally what being a liberal male is like.
I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
What a colossally callous and heartless thing to say.
Being cheated on is a horrendous betrayal. “Bitter” is the least on the list of absolutely justified emotions to feel in response to that.
No my SO is a wonderful woman who is a feminist in the sense that she does not enjoy any form of gender roles. That was extremely common when we first started dating. We are both pretty happy in our relationship.
My frustration comes from watching a lot of my guy friends struggle. Just because I’m not the one being cucked doesn’t mean I appreciate seeing it in my social circles or appreciate seeing that behavior being defended.
Again, there’s a lot of dialogue about how women need to stick up for other women. The idea that men have to be in it for themselves is ridiculous.
That being said, I would have every right to be bitter if my SO pressured me into an open relationship, and my friend group watched because a small amount of women were very supportive of the idea and nobody wanted to confront them. That’s an extremely fucked up position to put anyone in.
As long as the woman is clear about it then your guy friends chasing that which cannot be caught is on them. Love is not a transaction and even if it was women have every right not to do business with people they don’t want to do business with.
In your example if your SO wanted an open relationship and you didn’t then that is when you say “if this is a deal breaker for both of us then we had a good run but I’m sorry.” It sucks, sure, but if you turn around and tell her that she can’t do what feels right to her then all you’re doing is using the relationship to pressure her into monogamy. It doesn’t fucking matter how popular or rare an idea is because you and your SO are individuals and have your own, individual needs. I mean christ, in your example you’re mad because a minority of women are supportive of her choice and that somehow makes it wrong? Do you hear yourself?
Again, my SO has never shown interest in “ethnical non monogamy”. She was actually a lot quicker to pass judgment on the subject when it first entered the public zeitgeist. I came to my conclusions about ethnical non monogamy after meeting people who practiced that IRL and watching their relationships implode. My SO would make it clear that she doesn’t approve of that lifestyle and didn’t want to make any moves to form direct friendships with them as opposed to simply being in the same social circle.
Are you in a relationship?
You offerer a hypothetical, I continued it.
I was in one, it was open, and while the openess was never really explored it was not at all a component in the ending of said relationship. In fact, I enjoyed that we could trust each other and have conversations with nuance about the topic.
The lady I’m crushin’ on right now has had to move away for going back to school so we’re keeping it friends until she comes back in the summer and even then it’ll need to be casual since she’s gotta go back after. In this case I’m not concerned with what is her business and she’s not concerned with what is my business, we just like each other and that’s that.
Regardless, I don’t need to be actively in a relationship to call out your nonsense and you’re dodging the question. C’mon, bud, do better.
A lot of words to say that you’re not in a committed relationship.
This is basic relationship stuff. Also if you’re in a longer term relationship, bailing for the sole purpose of fucking around is beyond shitty. manipulating your partner so you can fuck around while still having their emotional support is even worse.
All of this is very well understood when a man is shitty to a women. Yet when the reverse is true there’s a million different excuses that pour out of the woodwork.
I’ve never seen a successful open relationship. It always ends poorly, it always comes out that the man felt pressured, and it always comes out that part of the reason they let themselves suffer for this long is because everyone else acted like this was normal. The only time I’ve ever “met” someone in a successful open relationship is online, where there’s absolutely no context.
And yet I’ve seen plenty of successful ones. Not everyone’s needs and desires align and you’re just going to have to get ovee that. You’re also whining about being pressured while actively trying to imply that people who want an open relationship should shut up and stick with monogamy. We call that “being a hypocrit”.
But I doubt you give a shit.
A lot of words to say that you’re not in a committed relationship.
Lol this is toxic masculinity, do some research.
Flip the roles here
“Someone got cheated on and is bitter about it”
Makes it more clear how much of a prick you’re being
Most of the dudes I know who aren’t currently married just don’t expect to have a relationship at all at this point in their lives (mostly middle age IT guys). The consensus is online dating isn’t worth it to even bother with and it’s hard AF to meet anyone in the real world so they focus on their hobbies and socialize with their bros instead. There’s no animosity towards women and there are a few women that come out with us when we go to the bar but nobody is pursuing romance.
My friends have better luck, but it’s a constant grind. Also, as far as I can tell, a guy’s chance of getting into a relationship is basically a thin proxy for how attractive he is. Meanwhile for women the chances seem to be proxy for a combination of genuine kindness and realistic expectations. Any women with remotely realistic expectations is off the market in six weeks flat.
I mean, as a woman in my 30s, same. I’m not worried about it or anything, like if I meet someone that’s great, but why stress over it? Dating is supposed to be fun. If you’re stressing out, take a break. There’s no rush. I say that knowing I only have so much time left to have kids, but again, stressing over it doesn’t help
It sounds like we’re on the same page.
Author is painting men as needing forgiveness as if we’re just crossing lines like it’s our nature.
Shhh it’s not sexism be quiet.
I’m pretty sure it is, and no.
That’s patriarchy baby. Same genesis as “boys will be boys” or basically that males can’t control themselves, so society needs adapt to their fickle moods
Isn’t that also the basis of the panic defense, that a man loses control of his body in response to being “tricked” into the gay or whatever shit they say.
That’s the gay panic defense. We have to specify because the police also commonly use a panic defense. Like when they shoot into a crowd and claim someone charged them. (Yes they did that, the NYPD, no they haven’t released body cam footage yet, no nobody else is supporting their story)
That’s true, damn, there really shouldn’t be any panic defense at all. Someone who “loses control of their body” still committed a crime, and while in certain cases recognition and rehabilitation can help, them “losing control” or “panicking” is not an excuse for something they still did. If being drunk isn’t an excuse panic shouldn’t be one either.
Same basic logic as the cases where someone ties their victim to a bed, fetches some accelerant, douses them and sets them on fire in self defense.
Perhaps I should play the part assigned to me.
Noooo don’t do that, you’re so pretty lol
I what? Who are you?
I am but a man.
How do you know I’m pretty?
Call it a hunch
If you feel pretty and you act pretty then you are pretty
Good lord the discourse here is about as well as the man or bear discussions.
Something I notice is how everytime someone makes these kinds of criticisms, the counterarguments turn into a pit of semantics and extropolations. As if the original post was a massive research thesis rather than just women venting frustration over the entitlement and danger they’re subjected to daily.
You gotta look past the specific wording to see the overarching societal themes, emotions, and issues. It’s like those magic eye pictures.
Had to scroll waaay too far to find something sane.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was. Posts like this bring it right out. I can’t believe how many upvotes some of these red-pill-ass comments have. It’s really discouraging to see and often makes me too nervous to speak up on women’s issues here on Lemmy, lest I be absolutely brigaded.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was
Surprised if true
I agree there is sexism, but were you on Reddit for those first few years? This place is a Disney movie compared to how Reddit used to be.
I actually mentioned that in a comment above. Reddit used to be just as bad, if not worse indeed, but that doesn’t excuse Lemmy by any means. I do hope that it’s a good indicator that Lemmy will get better with time, though.
Half the comments here are shitting on men.
Goodness gracious, it’s almost like you’re commenting on the thread almost a day later and maybe the comments are a bit different now, as opposed to earlier.
Just saying what I am saying not my fault posts take forever for anything new to come up to my feed.
No, but deciding to comment is a choice you made, not something out of your control like something appearing in your feed.
The difference is that shitting on men is acceptable. At worst it’s venting a bit. And collectively attacking men is fine.
Not like saying something negative about a woman, in which case you have to be very absolutely clear that you are only talking about that one woman in that one scenario and that it is in no way representative of any other scenario or woman, and even then you’ll be accused of misogyny.
But then this notion that it’s OK to talk shit about men but women are either positive or victims at worst shows in a lot of feminist lingo.
For example, what do you call it when a company markets a version of a product specifically to women and charges a higher price in doing so and women buy it? The pink tax. What do you call it when a company markets a version of a product specifically to men and charges a higher price in doing so and men buy it? Male fragility.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
Absolute mood.
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
It’s a lot like Reddit was back in the old days in that way :/
It’s insane. They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape when women don’t immediately trust them to go into dark alleys with them and when a woman just says explicitly, off the top, what she wants and it doesn’t line up with their desires they go feral telling her unreasonable she’s being.
They talk such big shit about being generalized and then in turn refuse to accept a woman’s individual choices and preferences. They don’t even stop to understand that women cannot read minds to know who’s safe or not, and frankly just in that they kinda show exactly why they might be having trouble.
—
“I’d just like some basic emotional maturity.”
“Ok so this one time a woman was mean to me so real quick I’m gunna weaponize that and tell you that it gives me permission to be a big fucking baby.”
They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape
Yet you’re the one whining 🤔
“No you”
Just stop.
I thought the funniest part about the man vs bear stuff was women saying how they’d pick the bear because “at least it was honest about wanting to kill me” lmao
There is a fine line between valid criticism of gender roles & sexism.
An example of the former would be, “Men are dangerous for women”. Of course not all men are dangerous, but it describes the experience of many women & how they have to navigate the world, to not be assaulted.
This one describes the dynamic of a relationship between individuals & assigns a thought pattern to one of those individuals, based on their gender.
Maybe I missed some nuances here & I would be glad to be enlightened, but this looks like plain sexism.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women. It’s not just housework but forgiveness for all kinds of things that are taken much more seriously when the woman does something “wrong”. It takes a lot of serious introspection and effort to break out of that programming so it’s not a surprise that the majority of men don’t, or only do so partially. The default state is that this stuff is sort of “invisible” because it seems so normal to how things are. So no, this is a factual description of a “standard” behaviour for men that only some are able to avoid. If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles then this is a natural consequence of that for anyone who hasn’t deeply and actively questioned them.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles
The problem is that all too often those harmful gender roles are only called out as being harmful to women, not to men, but they are. The solution to the gender roles issue is not digging trenches between genders.
Long documents and researched history.
They say with no support.
This is a chat thread on a meme post, not an academic paper. “Gender roles exist” does not need a citation.
Women expect things from men: “women power!”
Men expect things from women: MISOGYNY !
Expectations of women of men: basic human decency, don’t rape
Expectations of men of women: be completely subservient in every way
atro_city: “these are the same picture”
Hmmm.
I’d phrase it differently. Unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex [^1] exist by both sexes, but that there outcomes for women when the stereotypes of men hold true are often more dangerous. One is saying it isn’t sexist; the other is saying that there’s a vast difference in risk. This becomes one of those tautological arguments where women can’t be sexist because sexism is redefined to mean “it can only be sexist if it’s men doing it.”
The “Would you rather a bear or…” question could be reused in a very uncomfortable way. You could swap men with a group of yoing, black, inner city men and rural white men for women. But instead of demonstrating that men are the issue and women the victims, suddenly it’d be black men who are the victims and rural white men the problem. And, yet, the fear and the risk of confirmation of stereotypes is the same - only in this case, believing those stereotypes makes people racist.
These sorts of tautologies - only whites can be racist, only men can be sexist - is sloppy, lazy, and dangerous, because it prevents introspection and always externalizes blame. I’m not saying that you are arguing a tautology, but that’s the essence of this thread: minimizing sexism against men in the basis that it can’t be sexism if rape isn’t involved. Which is exactly how this thread went, isn’t it?
Also: there should be a Godwin’s Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.
I’ll leave this here.
Across their lifetime, 1 in 3 women, around 736 million, are subjected to physical or sexual violence by an intimate partner or sexual violence from a non-partner – a number that has remained largely unchanged over the past decade.
In the US it’s 1 in 6 women (and 1 und 33 men).
https://rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
And last but bit least:
Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.
https://www.humboldt.edu/supporting-survivors/educational-resources/statistics
So no, jumping to rape is not a leap. The fear of sexual violence is part of beeing a women. I don’t know a single women that wasn’t in a situation that did or did almost resulted in sexual violence.
It’s not part of beeing a men. I have never in my life feared about sexual violence and I share that with the vast majority of men.
There is no way you’re actually dumb enough to think those are representative of what the expectation norms are for either sex.
So stop being disingenuous.
Yes, those are the only expectations all men and women have /s
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women.
I find the implication that there is not also a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men, quite amusing in its ignorance.
That is in absolutely no way implied by that statement; the existance of a truth does not imply the existance of it’s inverse.
yes but focusing on one side of the discussion ignoring its counterpart is a clear sign of bias, so despite being technically correct it’s unhelpful
What?? Keeping a discussion to one aspect of a topic is absolutely not an example of bias, it’s an example of contextual scope. It’s the only reason we can have a discussion about anything without having to include the full context it’s situated within (which would be the entire universe).
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men too. But if you seriously think this is the average expectation of men towards women, then you should go outside and touch some grass. Just because toxic gender stereotypes exist, does not mean you have to acknowledge every bullshit sexist stereotype as the truth.
Women know that it isn’t every man, you’re not being helpful here. Women tell us all the time that they don’t feel safe and can back it up with so many examples of people that come off as good right until they’re putting her body in separate garbage bags. For a less intense version of that they come around to trust people and even accidentally the man ends up defensive and trying to make excuses for poor behaviour(s).
They deal with this shit all the fucking time and you complaining like you’re the victim in a post about their struggles is exactly what they’re fucking talking about.
Yes, women deal with literal serial killers all the time. Touch grass and come back to reality. 🙄
I literally said it was an intense example. If that’s what you took from my comment then good fucking lord…
You’re being a shitty person right now, I hope one day you can gather the strength to acknowledge it and do better.
You’re being a shitty person right now, I hope one day you can gather the strength to acknowledge it and do better.
No, and I throw that right back at you. Because you’re just supporting terrible stereotypes that further aid in the great divide and ultimately just feed the incel community. It’s like me saying all women are cheaters because that’s basically my experience, but at least I can acknowledge that I’m just an easy target for female predators instead of shoving it onto the gender as a whole. When you say “all men blah blah blah” then it does not matter if you truly mean it or not, you’re still ending up attacking and insulting everyone who is not part of that shit. And what’s the next reaction to it? “Oh don’t be so sensitive / fragile!” - which basically comes back to just being a toxic masculinity comment about men having to be strong and take it without complaining.
Nobody said “all men”, you’re making shit up. I’d say talk to a woman but, uh, maybe leave them be they have enough problems without doing all the emotional labour of making you feel special.
You’re a defensive lil’ baby who clearly doesn’t want to even begin to try understanding what’s going on. This isn’t about you, man-child. Dealing with you on the daily must be fucking insufferable and sharing a gender/sex with you is an embarrassment.
Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
Entrenched gender roles is normal. This is expected human behaviour for 90% of the world. Equality is…just not how things work. It may be distasteful for you personally, but the rest of humanity doesn’t give a toss - Western civilisation is a thin smear of civility which only popped up in the past couple of hundred years, and what’s worked quite well for millennia is what’s still working pretty effectively for several billion people. The premise of disestavlishing gender roles and moving towards equality is really recent, and gender parity is a very western concept…
Moreover there is a risk to positing that there is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality, and that there is a regression or progression over time. We only have now, and now keeps changing. The events of the past 10 years have convinced me that the “good” parts of liberalism are unsustainable because people at their core are just…selfish. The only way to convince them to change something is if it is in their self interest. Regrettably, equality rarely aligns with self interest because it requires relinquishing something.
“Normal” is a fluid term. It changes based on what the majority thinks. At some point slavery was normal and a part of life. But we as a society decided that we should move away from oppressive systems that marginalize and discriminate.
So, while it’s true that in many cultures “entrenched gender roles” are considered normal, that doesn’t mean certain people aren’t suffering from it. In fact, it doesn’t require much debate to acknowledge that in a system where there’s a power imbalance (in other words, inequality), there will inevitably be an oppressed group, and therefore, suffering.
As long as you consider “reducing the amount of suffering” an “absolute good/right”, then abolishing entrenched gender roles is an absolute good. Promoting gender equality doesn’t mean that women are prohibited from going to the kitchen and men must be stay-at-home dads. It simply ensures that these roles are a matter of personal choice rather than societal imposition.
Moreover, gender equality is not solely a liberal value; it has been promoted in various ideologies, including socialist and communist systems. While the practical implementation has varied, these systems have often supported the idea of gender equality alongside broader social reforms.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality - the genders are either equal or they’re not. You’ve either achieved equality, or you haven’t. You either want equality, or you don’t.
And you clearly don’t.
Lie to yourself and make up as much pseudo scientific nonsense as you like, but it won’t change that you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity)
There is not. Equality is arbitrary. Equity is arbitrary. They are ideals / values that we each hold individually, and rank individually. Clearly, equality is an important value for you. Good. But your value of equality is shaped by you, not anyone else.
If you take your value set and say this should be the value set which everyone else has - you won’t change them. That’s my point. Equality is a value. It is ranked amongst other values. Do you value equality more than security? Financial independence? Safety? Control? Family? Social status? Faith? Children? Education? Career? Mastery of skill? Respect? Knowledge? Influence? Conservatism? Freedom? The environment?
For a given person you engage with, whether it be online, in person, in a relationship, over the phone, randomly in a street - their value set is intrinsic to them. Equality might not rank in their top five, or ten values. When you speak up on equality and say “you should”, people who don’t share your value set hear something different. What they hear is “You are wrong”. Speaking of which:
And you clearly don’t
you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong
sigh
That’s a shame. I’m sorry that you feel that way. Have to say it’s the first time I’ve been called a misogynist. I think if you met me you wouldn’t think that at all.
Your opinion of me doesn’t really matter - it doesn’t change anything. What did change things for me was reading The Mental Load by Emma. It crystallised what I already knew, and helped me to better understand the difference between contribution, effort and load.
Do you want to know why?
It’s not at all an uncommon story. Go to any women’s support group or site, and it’ll be a very consistent trend. A lot of people still have the old gender roles stuck in their heads, but they fail to acknowledge that some things have changed.
The big one is that women can now be financially independent. We’re only 2 generations away from women being able to open a bank in their name in the US. Before that, women didn’t have the financial freedom to live alone or divorce abusive/neglectful spouses.
The other one kind of ties into the first one, freedom of choice. It’s not as big an expectation for women to marry, and people are finding that a lot of women would prefer to be alone and single than married. Where do you think all these memes of childless cat ladies come from? It didn’t start with JD Vance. He just amplified it.
“So stop getting so pissy about me assuming you’re a gangbanger, Jamal.”
Generalizations about my out-group 👍
Generalizations about my in-group 👎
It isn’t about what an individual’s in or out groups are, it’s about what they are in society at large, and the power imbalance between them.
The point being made is that you won’t solve the issue if you divide society between men and women, instead of normal people and sexist bigots. The point is not to replace existing harmful sexist stereotypes with your own sexist stereotypes, but to come together and listen to each other.
The same should be true in reverse. Couples should be trying to compassionately make each other better, no matter what gender they are. And kids lose their mind a bit when they realize their parents are humans with faults. I think that’s part of where teenage angst and rebellion comes from.
There’s no need to gender this unless we want to specifically talk about toxic culture.
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Bro I think I’ve heard my mom tell me she loves me like, 5 times in my entire life. My dad would tell me more regularly, after the divorce.
My wife tells me every day.
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Well my mother wasn’t forgiving so I guess I’m screwed.
My daughters are wayyyyy more forgiving then my wife.
Yeah, was about to say my mom would beat me with kitchen utensils until they broke for eating her crackers. My daughters just kind of hug me and say “it’s ok, dad”.
My wife is wayyyyy more forgiving than my mother lol.
You guys get forgiveness?
This is the kind of bullshit an alcoholic mom posts after she loses custody.
These people never met my mother
Fellow bro, same here.
I hope you’re doing fine.
Y’all are reading this as feminist? It’s literally an observation by some chicks on twitter, not some kind of feminist rhetoric.
Feminism is currently more preoccupied with dismantling the gender binary entirely, not reinforcing stereotypes like in this twitter post.
I’ve never had a wife, nor a daughter, so I can’t really say much about how forgiving they are. If this doesn’t match your lived experience, stop giving a fuck and move on.
Neither the image posted nor “dismantling the gender binary” are feminist. And while the latter seems a worthwhile cause that deserved its own name and slogans, the former is a piece of art which echos hateful stereotypes about men and thus causes some.very real revulsion from viewers outraged by those stereotypes.
What’s the feminized version of a circlejerk? Circlerub? Circlejill? Circlefling?
Gossiping.
Circleflick? Circletoss?
Conflickulation
I think jerk is a gender neutral term.
I think men in general have a wake-up moment when they realize no woman is going to love them the same way their mother did, that romantic love does not work the same way as familial love.
And the worst part is, if you find a woman whose love feels like your mother’s love, RUN.
I can’t speak for all men because I’ve only really known a few dozen of them well enough to judge. But I don’t remember me or any of my friends having or needing one of those moments.
The forgiveness thing is legit though. Our kids remember ALL the times we fucked up. Frustrated remarks that would roll off your spouses back are not forgotten by kids - because it hurts them more.
I hope not. My mother would beat me with whatever she could grab and once cut up all my socks because I pull them up too far.
Jokes on them I don’t even love myself
Husband’s bad
Men stupid
Sounds like the moms are to blame. Moms need to be less forgiving of their sons, to better prepare them for their future relationships.
Moms need to allow men to see their children, so children don’t grow up with only the softer half of the parenting they could receive.
a father can still give soft parenting, so I don’t agree with the second part
children shouldn’t always get soft and hard parenting, they’re not swords on an anvil, they’re people trying to learn the world
My mom is far too forgiving and it absolutely messed me up a little. But I’m also not a fucking dumbass on autopilot so I acknowledged shortcomings and fixed them. Their fathers also allowed that behaviour to happen, and it’s not even unlikely that they stopped the mothers “being so hard on them” if they stepped in in the way you’re asking for. The mothers had to put up with shit and have borderline to actuall PTSD and are too protecting themselves to go after the very behaviour they’re trying to avoid needing to deal with.
No, the moms are not to blame.
