Honestly, I had forgotten about Kamala when arguing that Biden was the best bet. My argument always lay in, “Needs to be familiar because Trump has this uncanny ability to swamp somebody without a track record”, and I completely forgot Kamala fit that exactly in the same way Biden did - By being a VP
SO glad I was wrong, too - It was a lot of me groaning, “Oh god Biden is our best bet dear fuck no…”
You’re still completely missing the point.
It could have been Tim Walz and no one knew his name before Biden dropped.
The “name recognition” is just bullshit.
99.99% of what neoliberals say they dont even believe, they just say whatever gets them what they want
They wanted Biden, so they just spewed diarrhea onto keyboards throwing everything at the wall hoping something will stick.
But they knew all along that Biden was the worst option, they were just willing to risk trump again than anything a smidge to the left more than Bidens 82 year ass.
Please learn the lesson this time, they’ve been doing it for decades, and show no signs of stopping
The most conservative wings of a political party almost never are on the same side of the rest of the party. Please, for the love of God stop fucking falling for it.
This is garbage discourse towards someone who literally said they are adjusting their perspective.
Thanks, your post history is blatantly what I’m talking about
Good for you, print it out or something.
No need to be so toxic to those you’re speaking to, it fails your point and ruins whatever platform you argue from.
I’m not saying IM of some high position, mind you.
I didn’t even mention neoliberals smugness…
But I don’t need anymore examples, and I know y’all love the last word. So feel free to reply to any of my comments you see. You’ll always get the last word now
I wasn’t on board with Kamala until she picked Walz as her running mate. I was honestly going to vote for Vermin Supreme until then.
Imagine if all the undecideds went to Vermin Supreme and he actually won… better than Trump of course, but wow
I think I let myself be misled about the urgency of having a candidate ready and the time for campaigning. Meanwhile, other countries gear up their elections in less than a month.
Many of us misled ourselves about the “obligation” or “strategic advantage” of there always having to be a two-term attempt. The fact that Joe chose Kamala as VP, and decided to retire after one term, speaks VOLUMES about why I trusted and trust him as president and as a fellow human, and how it pissed me off to hear people saying that both parties are the same.
Anyway… Joe Biden’s legacy will now most certainly be a positive one. As I knew it would be.
Yeah. He’s never going to be remembered as positively as Obama, Obama was a cultural phenomenon and remains one of the best orators alive, but he will likely be remembered as a man who genuinely held beliefs and cared about his country enough to grow and change with the times. Biden was the president we didn’t necessarily want but aren’t mad to have had anyways.
It was that plus the “if Biden drops out it will be a whole ordeal establishing a new candidate.” It wasn’t. It was quick, painless, and even the VP choosing was relatively quick and made people happy.
Yep, I was one of those people, but I’m happy that I was wrong about it.
I’m happy to be in the “i told you so” crowd, and I’m surprised that I predicted it would be kamala just being crowned president elect after biden drops after the speech.
What I never imagined was how much support Kamala would get. I thought a change like this, while it would have been better, would be controversial. While I’m upset with some things, like the wishy-washy “hope” platform and the promised things having a poor track record of being achieved by the dems, I’d much rather prefer this to biden, even with her terrible views on genocide and LGBTQ rights (especially trans rights)
Granted, this hope narrative is working wonders for a lot of democrats, and I even felt a little bit of it in my jaded, cold, black anarchist heart. Just the change of candidate alone feels similar to the times when I’d go home after spending a month eating the horrid cafeteria food in college to have a home-cooked meal. But i’m worried that after that brief weekend of good shit, it will go back to the same old bullshit once she’s in office
Yeah I’m deeply worried she’s going to throw queer and especially trans people under the bus, especially since she’s already compromising on things I don’t want her to compromise on, but she’s not worse than the alternative and I think she understands that single issue voters on lgbt issues can’t be pulled from the republicans but can be lost by the democrats.
Even though I am more on the militant side with LGBTQ+ rights, I’m still pretty worried about what’s to come. I don’t expect the government to help me, and I’m building connections of solidarity and support that will keep myself and others safe, regardless of what happens.
But I’m scared of what’s going to happen to trans kids cursed to grow up in a state like Florida or Oklahoma. Left to rot by a party that’s abandoned them once they’ve voted. I’m worried that queers aren’t realizing that we can’t expect reciprocal support from the Dems, especially at the federal level, and they’re not using their energy to build support networks instead of spending time and energy campaigning for them.
Still, I imagine they’re pretty happy about being wrong.
You realize they’re the same people who tried to start a national movement for Dems to vote R because Obama beat Hillary, right?
Like. Biden supporters did t just appear overnight. They’re the people who voted R till Bill Clinton in the 90s, and they’re very used to getting what they want, can’t accept when they dont and constantly project
There’s not.many of them, they just never shut up and are the ones currently running the DNC.
Nope, I had no idea. I’m not American. In fact, I don’t even know who you’re referring to as “R.”
But I thought about how I would feel if it was me and I through, yeah, I’d feel pretty silly but I’d also be happy about being wrong.
I just thought it would be fair to them to mention it.
It sounds bad though, whatever it is. That definitely came across.
They aren’t right, they’re projecting on us. A lot of us are here and thought it was a bad strategic decision before it happened but are happy it went as well as it did
Gee, thanks for viewing the downfall of our country like a soccer match and voicing your opinion on what we should do I guess.
I mean, there’s practically no way to avoid hearing about your elections, might as well make it slightly more bearable.
Surely you can link some of those comments on Lemmy?
I can’t find specific comments I’ve made in the past, but I know I made them. I admit I believed there was no way there could be such a rapid acceptance of Kamala as the candidate with how late in the election cycle we were.
My main priority then (as it is now) was just keeping Trump out of the white house, and I thought dropping the incumbent from the ticket after primaries were already done would jeopardize that. Happy to be wrong.
LMAO 🤡
So you don’t have any examples either?
For what purpose? Lots of folks in here happily admitting they were wrong in who the nominee would be. I was one of them. Though I never said anything negative about Harris.
I don’t feel like digging through my own comment history for examples, but I can assure you I made MANY such comments, and I was not alone in making them.
To be fair this was kind of a new phenomenon, and nobody knew what would happen if Biden dropped out like that. I’m sure you were hoping to avoid a power struggle that just didn’t materialize. Plus a lot of the suggestions were kind of out there and not well known, so I can see why it would make sense to stick with Biden.
Though I’m really glad you were wrong.
Yeah, honestly, I was dreading a whole avalanche of consequences that just… didn’t materialize. Even when I finally came around to Biden dropping out, I was certain that we were going to end up with a very brutal “DEMOCRATS IN DISARRAY” narrative from the media in addition to whatever ugliness emerged from figuring out who the candidate was without a new primary. And yet when it happened, it was almost… subdued. And the Trump campaign absolutely floundered on it.
Wasn’t hyped for Harris either, but Walz was a damn good VP pick, so I’m actually feeling almost positive. Almost. I mean, at the end of the day we shouldn’t be dealing with fighting this fascist shite in a fair and just world, but we deal with the hand we have, not the one we want.
I did as well, and am very happy to be wrong.
And it seems like Harris’ campaign saw those kinds of comments and chose to address them with energy and humor.
They’ve done a great job so far. Hoping they can keep this amazing momentum and prove me thoroughly wrong on election day.
I as well friend
Happy to be wrong!
I don’t think I made such comments but I sure as hell voted that way.
It’s good to be proven wrong when the outcome is this positive.
Hopefully you can take a second, if not a couple hours, to reflect on what you can learn about the experience. A lot of other people didn’t make the same mistake, for lack of a better word, and were communicating their ideas the whole time.
For example, I try to pay attention to which pundits or networks are wrong and then never fully trust them again, or at least treat them with a high amount of skepticism. In contrast, people that are right on big, important issues I try to pay more attention to
Edit: I think I should’ve said we, as I’m absolutely doing this myself
I personally didn’t think it was a great idea to attack him a la Bernie v Hilary, since we have to ultimately vote for him, which is where I think most of his defense comes from, but I also didn’t agree with denying reality and pretending we were going to win by just ignoring reality harder than the other side.
I mainly want to try and understand why I was hesitant at all and not fully onboard with the brave people that convinced enough people in power to force him to step down. It at least makes me wonder what else I’m believing that isn’t true
In contrast, people that are right on big, important issues I try to pay more attention to
Jon Stewart comes to mind
Exactly! I always remember that study on people’s understanding of current events based on the media they consume.
People that didn’t watch any news were more informed than people that watched fox/nbc on current events or international issues , whereas people that watched the daily show or npr were more informed. That and seeing people ridicule Michael Moore over and over despite him always being right (afaik) have been big eye-openers in terms of who to believe. It’s wild they keep putting people on TV that are regularly wrong.
Ok… had to go find it: What you know depends on what you watch. It’s from 2012 but still seems legit.
Dude, I already said I made a mistake. No need to take the chance to act like a fucking smug cunt.
My bad, I wasn’t trying to offend you! lol That was sincere
Admitting you made a mistake doesn’t have to be the last step. It can be the first! Asking questions can be step 2. Experimenting can be step 3. Idk…
Anyway, it was just a suggestion. You absolutely do not have to reflect on anything if you don’t feel comfortable or it’s too stressful or whatever
You’re acting like you had superior information about the system.
Biden had every detail lined up at the time these conversations were rolling.
He was the clear and away presumptive nominee.
If Biden was still in right now you’d be the one “reflecting” based on you’re advice, and that makes no sense to tell someone about something they can’t control.
I respectfully disagree. Y’all are clearly very defensive about this and that’s not going to result in a fruitful discussion, so carry on and don’t even think about reflecting on your sources
Listen. You clearly have the need to prove yourself. But you have to understand, I am not your dad. Call him and tell what a pretty little princess you have been. Just don’t bother me. You sound so sad it spoils my mood.
What in the projection?
I’ll also own that I was wrong on this subject
This just makes me want to play Balatro
That’s what they looked like at the time they were made too. Was so wildly disconnected from actual day-to-day opinions. Best argument at the time could have been “Biden won’t drop out and the DNC won’t do anything about that, so we should try to make the corpse look as appealing as possible.”
Basically accepting inauthenticity from the get go and acting like no one can tell, all the while criticizing anyone that asks them to defend their position
Around the time this article was posted, I largely agreed with AOC, even though I was very worried about Biden’s stubbornness leading to his loss in November despite his capability of being an excellent leader.
But the fact that the party was able to resist chaos, keep steady on a Biden-lite agenda through Harris means that the Dems have vastly outperformed my expectations in the last month.
I will let Lemmy decide if I need to hold myself to account for my comment pledging money to charity if a “spry and progressive” candidate succeeded him. Does Harris count as spry and progressive?
And Done! Lemmy has spoken!
Does Harris count as spry and progressive?
Surprisingly, yes!
I expected the Dems to support the same tired high road taking boring candidate so I wanted Biden to be kept around for brand recognition because that seemed to be the only thing the Dems would accept. I absolutely did not expect Kamala to come out guns blazing on memes, engaging the GOP on their level instead of taking the high road, and then picking the absolute best example of a human being possible as VP. I expected the Dems to discourage all of those things in favor of some stoic white guy safe choice.
I am extremely happy to have been wrong and it is great to see the Dems catch on that this kind of campaign will be successful.
I won’t pretend to know how it would have gone either way. Had it actually not happened in the timeline that it did happen, it could have easily been different. The momentum, the media narratives, the quickness with which the Democrats united behind Harris, all of these things caught most everyone by surprise. I could see any of those things being wildly different had Biden chose to step down much earlier. We don’t like to admit it, but irrational, unknowable elements like “vibe” and “timing” have always played a huge role in elections.
I didn’t know what to think about Biden dropping out but I’m glad it’s taken a turn for the best. It was a bold move and it paid off.
Bold, yeah… In the same way that jumping out of a moving vehicle headed towards a cliff is bold.
All the people who said I was helping the orange man by asking for a better candidate can tell me they’re sorry. Yeah right. They’re the same ones telling us to shut up about Gaza.
I had no confidence that the Democrats could coalesce around another candidate, in time for the convention.
I’m honestly flabbergasted
I don’t know if I ever talked to YOU about it, but I definitely said a few times that it was too risky to change candidates, even though Biden was polling terribly. I’m very happy to eat my hat now!
Yeah, in the same boat. I thought they needed to stick with him because of advantage incumbents have, and I didn’t think we had time to promote a new candidate. Very happy to be wrong about that! I don’t care about the change, I’m just happy to go with whoever has the best chance at winning
Yo I don’t think we spoke but I was someone saying Biden would be the nominee. I even said things like it’s unlikely or impossible there will be another D candidate.
I acknowledge I was wrong on that part. I also acknowledge as the season wore on Biden clearly displayed himself as not fit to run, and a replacement was a good idea.
In general I focused and continue to focus on those who say “stay home or vote 3rd party” as that is an issue in the face of project 2025 and other obvious trump stuff.
So my argument wasn’t “omg vote for grandpa Biden he’s the best” it was “let’s keep trump out of the Whitehouse, a Democratic candidate is the only option, and Biden is currently the likely nominee.”
Also, keep talking about Gaza, it’s important.
“We need a better candidate” is a different cry altogether.
I still feel they’re taking a huge risk and they could still fail miserably like every other time before, but we have no comparative data for a differential anyway.
I still worry they made the wrong choice but they did so the best way possible, and I hope it works out for them. I still have my fears but I sure hope they’re just that.
Feels a wee bit early for the “I told you so” stuff. She’s currently losing in the betting odds.
Edit: it’s good to be wrong
For one thing, it’s an even worse metric than polls. For another:
Interesting, I’ve heard the opposite in terms of betting odds v. traditional polling. Good to know it changed though as Trump was like +5 as recently as like 2 days ago. Thanks for posting.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/betting-odds/2024/president
2 days ago was probably before the DNC opened, ever day has seemingly been throwing that shit from Back to the Future 3 in the hypetrains engine.
I genuinely didn’t think someone else was positioned to take on the campaigning. I’m glad I was wrong.
Everyone is happy to be wrong. This isn’t the flex you think it is lol
It’s not a flex. It’s a statement about how much is still lacking.
Maybe you should read your comment again cuz it’s definitely not a “statement about how much is still lacking”.
What a time to be alive. As it seems now, I was entirely wrong, as was ‘conventional’ political wisdom. May I continue to be wrong. It’s a welcome failure, as far as I’m concerned.
exact same
Yep, I was wearing that clown makeup too. Dems have not impressed me much lately with being able to deliver a coherent and effective message, so I was fully prepared for a shitshow of disarray if/when Biden dropped out.
It was very surprising to me how effectively they were able to leave Trump stumbling just as he seemed to be on the upswing. The utter lack of disorder around it almost feels like Biden was planning to drop out of the race all along, just waiting for the right moment… but that’s probably giving him too much credit.
What clown makeup? Biden was the presumptive nominee. I wasn’t pro Biden, I was pro Democrat in the Whitehouse. Trump in prison.
I still am, though I acknowledge I was wrong about who the nominee was gonna be.
I personally underestimated the support Harris would get. I remember lots of progressives being unhappy with her back in 2020, due to her background as a prosecutor.
Between that and the obvious reasons Republicans would go after her, I figured it would be an uphill battle.
Very happy to have been wrong!
I’m with ya there.
Agreed. I really didn’t expect the quick rally. I’m even more impressed with citizens than Kamala’s campaign. It’s restorative.
May we continue righting more of PugJesus’ wrongs
Right there with you
I figured there was a 1% chance of Biden dropping out, but also thought that Kamala would be a better candidate than him, but was also skeptical that Kamala would be able to beat Trump.
So…basically wrong on the first, correct on the second… yet to be determined on the third.
I did not expect the Democrats to actually do anything that would actually help themselves, figuring that they are far too ossified and out of touch.
Currently the Trump and the Republicans seem to stun locked by the ‘they’re just weird’ angle… which is amazing to me in two ways:
One, that after basically 3 decades of spewing lies and hate and insults against their opponents in the form of coordinated talking points to respond to basically every political development, they cannot handle the mildest possible form of this being used against them.
Two, that the Democrats finally actually collectively did something ‘aggressive’ rhetorically. Years and years of ‘taking the high road’ and acting morally superior to their opponents… they finally actually did something (collectively) that makes them not seem like hoity toity cloistered intellectual snobs.
That, and
MikeTim Walz is actually surprisingly relatable and charismatic.*Tim Walz
Derp. Thanks.
Did you learn anything?
What’s to be learned? What is weak logic about the mainline, presumptive nominee, who is a sitting president, who one way or another was the only human being to beat trump in an election, would become the actual nominee and democratic candidate?
That is not a bad bet, or bad logic, if we are sitting in March or April.
For example, you could note that “only human being to beat Trump in an election” is a really small sample size. It’s equally true to note that so far, Hillary is the only Democrat to lose to Trump in an election. The performance post-switch would indicate Trump is not a uniquely dangerous and persuasive candidate, but that his opposition was uniquely weak so far.
Idk, I asked someone else in this thread that and they had a great answer. They mentioned how the way we predict elections has changed since 2016 (or something) and I thought that was super interesting and worth reflecting on. If I answered your question right now it might be something simple like age or someone with a better understanding of history might mention how the current level of wealth inequality compares to previous moments in history
That said, I’m not sure why this similar comment was seen as more offensive. This is literally something I try to do myself when someone I trust is wrong about something. I might not cancel em or whatever but I’ll try to understand what went wrong or maybe just stop listening to them about certain topics they’re consistently wrong on
Wealth inequality has fuck all to do with a reader’s assessment of election candidacy, especially when the primary source (the candidate) is emphatic about their intent to run.
By all available signal, Biden fully intended to run until after the debate, where the cracks formed, other candidates were discussed, and Harris stepped up.
To suggest otherwise could only be arrived at by wish, or reliance on a more distant, less direct source, which is a worse bet.
Idk, even Nancy Pelosi didn’t accept Biden’s words. So, it’s wild, to me, that an informed citizen would simply accept things the way they’re told they are. Maybe this isn’t about “sources” and more about pundits and narrative-makers/builders - the ones that decide who is “electable”. Not everyone accepted the narrative that Biden wouldn’t step down. Some even had the narrative that he must step down and apparently they were “right” - for lack of a better word (sorry for any poor communication)
That said, you’ve clearly made up your mind and you don’t really seem interested in entertaining this idea, so we really don’t have to keep going
That conventional political wisdom is getting less applicable with every year since the hell-date of 2016?
Yeah, unprecedented event after unprecedented event. Still you could’ve been vindicated if anything mildly unfortunate had happened before the DNC. Like if Harris picked a different VP, if Vance was actually in any way adept, etc. And hey, knock on wood, but you could still be right in the end – we probably shouldn’t count our chickens before they hatch.
Good on you though for being a good sport about your previous comments. I was on the “drop out” side (not that Biden would drop out, but I thought pretty much anyone else would have a better chance), but at the end of the day I kinda think we’re all talking out of our asses to a certain degree, because political science isn’t actually a science at all.
It’s a wild time for sure. If I knew senators were going to quote 4chan when discussing policies… Man what a time.
That’s actually really great! 1000 kudos to you
Why do you think political wisdom wasn’t applicable in 2016 and hasn’t been since?
I think that’s is really one of the most important things we need to try and understand and I don’t think it’s mainly due to the Internet being a factor.
My guess is it’s moreso due to the influence of money on political campaigns, the influence of mega-corporations on the job market, and all the offshoring of jobs in the last few decades. The terrible state of our education system really doesn’t help either
Why do you think political wisdom wasn’t applicable in 2016 and hasn’t been since?
I think that’s is really one of the most important things we need to try and understand and I don’t think it’s mainly due to the Internet being a factor.
The internet, globalism, the collapse of Rhine Capitalism in favor of neoliberalism and reactions against it, the lack of a clear ideological ‘enemy’ to face… it could be any number of things. All I know for sure is that we’re living in ‘interesting times’, and it’ll likely continue to be ‘interesting’ for a while before any new ‘conventional’ wisdom can be made.
Not a failure. These are strange times
100%
It was so obvious that Biden dropping out would be beneficial and so many of you had your head up your ass about it. Same people that call anyone who brings up the genocide in Palestine Tankies. Gross people.
.ml…sus
Don’t count your chickens before they are hatched. The election isn’t over. This nations racism, sexism, and sheer stupidity might be too much to overcome.
And just because she wins doesn’t mean it goes away either.
And just because she wins doesn’t mean she wins either.
There are election deniers all over the country in important places and they’re going to act up after the election refusing to certify their election results. SCOTUS could end up rubber stamping a Trump win in a scenario where it’s up to them to solve a legal dispute…
Go fuck yourself. You act like you knew this was gunna be the case all along. Most of us were fighting the “let’s just have a vote at the DNC” people. And that’s not how it went.
We didn’t want chaos. Choas is far from what we got.
Get off your high horse there, mate.
You act like you knew this was gunna be the case all along.
Since 2016, actually.
In fact, the only thing that surprised me was that Biden actually dropped out. Never would have thought Pelosi would have been able to convince him.
Go fuck yourself.
Right back at ya, bub~
