laughs in STV
Thats crazy how every government only has two parties
damn and every government got that?
Mainly UK and its derivatives… (USA, Canada, Australia 😄)
The American system of elections is old and it is apparent the Founding Fathers had no Idea as to how the game theory of elections would play out. Worse, they even picked a system of government that was more prone to a two party system than the United Kingdom due to the direct election of the Executive and the inbuilt separation of the Executive and Legislative branches.
Israel, as genocidal as it is, has a system which encourages minor parties to get elected. There are 16 parties elected to the Knesset out of 120 total seats. However, Israel has a unicameral legislature, there are no individual districts or constituencies, and the legislature selects the head of government.
Every government that this meme is relevant to, yeah
oh but not every government. meaning its possible to have a government without first past the post.
Yes and there’s many places where it exists
Some states here in the USA. Electoral reform is possible at the state level!
…yes? Duh?
Thats what im sayin but everyone here will tell me its impossible
it’s possible, hope this helps
Its crazy how both parties are heavily invested in killing Palestinians.
Also crazy how Democrats take no credit for persecuting BLM, despite the fact that Obama’s FBI was neck deep in that shit for two years before he left office.
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If your point is that the American system is fucked, we all know. We’ve known for decades. We’re trying to fix it, but progress is basically nonexistent, because every politician who is currently elected benefits from our fucked system. Trying to get to a parliamentary system, like most developed real democracies, is almost entirely out of reach. Just getting ranked choice voting is like pulling teeth, and we’ll have to create a brand new party to have politicians free from corporate interests.
I will have to fight all my life to enact positive change in this country, all because a bunch of rich white assholes who came to power long before I was born have stolen my future from me. Don’t belittle us, mourn for us and never, ever repeat our mistakes.
We’re trying to fix it
every politician who is currently elected benefits from our fucked system.
Wild how electing politicians that benefit from the system hasnt fixed the system yet.
Please refrain from speaking on topics that you have no understsnding of
Mean-spirited comment. Downvoted… 🙄
It’s also a legitimate request to be fair. I don’t really have time to explain the entire political situation of the US and why it’s not viable to change it through individual voting to this person, but they clearly don’t understand enough about it if they’re making silly remarks like this.
Fuck me this comment section is toxic
He needs a little lever that’s not attached to anything too.
Pakistan got the CIA coup treatment under BIden’s term, so this meme is already wrong.
Guys, I don’t know what’s going on in the world and their wars. I just want a president who isn’t abhorently evil. Do we have to revolutionize to find that 3rd option orrr?
I assume your “abhorently evil” comment is based off support of the genocide in Palestine (which is a completely reasonable thing to describe as abhorently evil, I’m just being clear about my premise).
In which case, sorry, bad news, you can’t have that. Your options this time round are genocide supporter or genocide supporter. Somewhere down the line, years from now, the US electoral system may have been sufficiently reformed to make third parties viable. But this year that’s not going to happen.
So that decision is completely out of your hands. But here’s what you do get to decide; you can have an outright fascist, leading a party of outright fascists who have openly publicised their plans to turn your country into a fascist theocracy. Or you can have the guys who strengthened workers rights and went after major companies for union busting, hit Microsoft for $20 billion in back taxes, had the FBI raid a major landlord for illegal price hikes, brought antitrust lawsuits against Amazon and several other large tech firms, and secured billions in aid for Ukraine in their fight for their freedom. And that is literally just a tiny sampling of the good things that Biden’s government has done.
I don’t even see how that’s a choice. One of these two options is clearly and manifestly better than the other, no matter how disgusting it feels. A vote for Biden is not an endorsement of his position on Gaza. It is a tactical choice, nothing more. And if nothing else, its a tactical choice that will prevent the fascists from filling even more seats on the supreme court.
It sucks, but those are the only options. Sometimes life just be like that.
Your argument is made every four years. The someday you talk about never seems to arrive. Which means the reasoning is missing something important.
I think the choice is really: Does America deserve the lesser evil?
This guy gets it. I don’t see how this is so difficult to understand. Not voting is essentially skewing the vote towards the diaper-wearing Nazi-Clown you once already had for a president. Vote for the least evil party, it’s all you can do.
Then you all should have voted for someone better in the 2020 primaries.
But what if I am a bad faith actor that only pushes the “no moral choice” position because I want to ensure that the fascists take power? Better yet, what if my Russian paycheck demands it. Then what do I do?
Are you forgetting about all the registered Democrats who voted uncommitted in the 2024 primaries? Not everybody who hates Biden is a Russian troll bud.
We can have it for the low price of demanding it. Tell the Democrats you won’t vote for Biden if he doesn’t stop supporting the Israeli genocide.
You realize why the Ashley Biden rape showers with grandpa suddenly became nearly mainstream news and will suddenly go away if Biden does what he’s told?
If that’s how it is then we’ve already lost. People who would make up stories like that would rather take the mask off and destroy democracy then let us get in their way.
Oh, I didn’t say it was made up. That diary seems to be real.
Do we have to revolutionize to find that 3rd option
Pretty much. It’s against the interest of both parties to have more options because both are near-guaranteed to lose power if there were more options.
I’m certain ballots with good options are unavailable absent a revolution, but if we tried under present conditions we’d likely only get worse governance and maybe destabilize the global balance of power catastrophically.
Thank you! We may eventually have to but revolutions do not have certain outcomes and we face a second problem that in general will require a mechanism for global cooperation which is hard to do when the state with the military, cultural, and economic influence the US currently has plunges into chaos
I used to wonder if there was any line that people wouldn’t cross with lesser-evilism, but now that I’ve seen all these takes just openly being like, “Yes, we’re doing genocide, and if you break ranks over that, not only are you a bad person, but your behavior is only possibly explainable by you being a foreign agent or a conservative in disguise,” and honestly it’s pretty validating to know that yes, I was right all along that accepting that line of reasoning would lead to complete insanity with no limit on how extreme it could get. Like I’ve never voted for a major party because of that sort of thing but even I never expected the discourse to reach this level, and now that I’ve seen it play out I’m very glad I decided to distance myself from it. This is what zero principles does to a mfer.
It’s really hard to see. Hearing that it doesn’t matter that Biden supports Israel’s genocide in Palestine because Trump would too is a bad take. It mattered to the thousands of people that have died. It matters to their families. It matters to their friends. So many of Biden’s bad policies are just unforced errors. He doesn’t have to be an unappealing candidate. He chooses to be an unappealing candidate. If he loses to Trump, that will be why. It’ll be 2016 all over again. The genocide in Palestine is Biden’s equivalent of just not setting foot in Michigan. And they’ll blame voters, primarily independents and leftists (they already are), just like Hillary did, but ever think about what they could have done differently or better.
Hey look, Americans handwaving their genocide
Oh look, a fascist who likes to pretend they aren’t.
Which pro-Palestinian groups do you listen to? What are the Palestinians saying that really strikes a chord with you?
You’ve posted like 30 comments here.
31
Just wondering why you’re so invested in telling people not to vote for biden.
I’m invested in telling Americans to listen to Palestinians.
I enjoy the self insert character of Zach in panel 4.
WEINNERSMITHHHHHHH
Well, in context of philosophy being taught in class you would then change the prompt to a harder question. You would also debate whether the person who makes the decision is in fact responsible and how that dynamic changes when the prompt changes.
So maybe you have to choose between 2 men only half as happy or handsome or one fully formed magical man with magic hands.
Magical hands always
What if the train magically transforms regular men into new men? What if they were opposed to the transformation before it happened?
Conversely, what about if it magically creates men causing potential overpopulation? What if the men it created morally oppose the tram, but more than half the local population feel like it is necessary to run no matter what?
You can pretty much run this thought experiment forever, so far we’ve been going for 57 years.
Yes
The problem is that we have two choices, and we will never not have two choices unless we do something about it. I can both say that Joe Biden sucks and we should do better and also vote for him because the other option is worse. This discourse that makes it seem like any criticism of Biden is pro trump is how we will end up in a slightly less terrible place. Cool. Really looking forward to that.
Also like what the fuck…I guess we have to kill Palestinians no matter what.
There is a third fucking option and it’s not doing a genocide.
The problem is that we have two choices
The problem is that we don’t. If you’re not in a “swing” state, all the votes in the world for Joe Biden are meaningless. Win California by another million votes. Win it by another 10M. Have every single eligible voter in California turn up and vote for Joe Biden. He still loses the EC when the SCOTUS tells Arizona to stop counting ballots the minute Trump is in the lead.
Also like what the fuck…I guess we have to kill Palestinians no matter what.
We have to keep sending money to Israel because its the means by which we control the Suez Canal.
Except… the Houthis have control over the back end of the canal so long as they’re able to scare off shipping in the Gulf of Adan. So now we’re endorsing a genocide just for shits and giggles.
It’s almost like two organizations have totally monopolized US politics. It’s a billion dollar industry, and they’d both rather alternate losing to each other and keep their seat at the table than let anyone else play the game.
Its an enormously lucrative game, so who can blame them?
you blame us for going along with it and blame those who shame anyone who points out that we don’t have to go along with it.
Because of a shitty situation set up by countless past people and events completely out of your control you have to make a choice here. And in my mind, it’s not even a difficult choice. Yes, either option will support Israel, that’s a given, but there is no third option so it might as well not even be a factor in choosing a candidate.
If you want more parties and to remove first past the post then you need to elect the party who supports those stances. That is one of your two options. Real fucking simple.
No. I do not vote for strike blocking genocide supporting candidates. Real fucking simple.
You will elect a much worse one by not supporting a much better one.
That’s their goal.
There is a third fucking option and it’s not doing a genocide.
That’s only an option if you have a viable strategy for accomplishing it.
Step one: Stop rewarding genocide with votes. 🤷
I agree, now how do we go about making everyone else see it too?
Apparently we can’t in 2024. They didn’t hear us in 2016. They won’t hear us now in 2024. Maybe two Democrat juggernauts losing the presidential election to Trump of all people will convince them.
They’ll just blame the leftists they cant stop attacking then use it as an excuse to move further right yet again.
Which, of course, they don’t. It’s a vanity vote. They want to pretend they have actually done something without actually having to do anything of consequence.
It’s an expression of privilege.
If we’re interpreting their “third option” as a voting strategy and not convincing Biden to step in and stop the genocide, we can at least implement Approval Voting so that they can vote for all the “no genocide” candidates without having to worry that doing so could somehow backfire. Then, if they want or need to, they can cast a strategic vote to differentiate between different magnitudes of genocide.
we can at least implement Approval Voting
No, you can’t. You do not have the power to implement Approval Voting, and nobody who does have the power wants to do it. So it’s not gonna happen, at least not in the short term. Right now, anybody who wins has to win in an environment of First Past the Post. Nobody capable of doing that currently supports Approval Voting, so right now it is effectively not on the ballot.
This is what I mean about “hav[ing] a viable strategy.” Magically wishing Approval Voting into existence ain’t it.
Well the strategy is to work your way up from the local level because:
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It’s easier for people to make change at the local level, Fargo and St. Louis have already done it.
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Politicians tend to work their way up the ladder, and will be more open to using the system at higher levels if they already proved they can win under that system.
You have to remember that any real social change takes years, even decades of organized to realize. We didn’t go from Jim Crowe to the civil rights act in a fortnight, it took big organizations applying decades of pressure in multiple different ways.
If you want to be a part of the solution, join an organization dedicated to improving things. It doesn’t have to be the one I linked, but Election Science is the one working on approval voting. Local elections are such that one highly motivated person can build and run the organization to flip their local election laws, it could be you, but it won’t happen overnight.
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Yes, we need to change the way we vote before voting for POTUS can really move away from a binary choice.
Great. That is a state issue, so pay attention to your state government, vote for state representatives that support better voting methods, and contact your state representatives to push for reform.
That doesn’t change this trolley problem.
As someone else pointed out, those in power are unlikely to change the voting system to reduce their own power. However, you really start at the local level with referendums, and work your way up. First, it’s easier to force change at the local level and second, politicians working their way up will be less hostile to changing to approval if they’ve already shown they can win under that system.
That bottom track should a circle or cliff to demonstrate it goes nowhere.
The tracks to the correct path can be built by passing state level electoral reform.
Abolishing the First Past the Post electoral system would allow voters to support third-party candidates without fearing they’ll spoil the election. This reform would invigorate competition in elections, leading to better-quality candidates for all voters. Moreover, it’s likely to boost voter turnout and civic engagement.
At the state level, electoral reform is feasible; Alaska and Maine have already enacted such changes, demonstrating its viability.
Despite this, some Republicans are staunchly defending First Past the Post voting, as seen in Florida’s recent ban on Ranked Choice voting. Fortunately, there are numerous of other alternatives available, ensuring that electoral reform can still progress despite such obstacles.
So, why do some blue states want to continueusing FPTP voting? Why continue using a voting system favored by Republicans? In states controlled by Democrats, there’s no Republican opposition hindering electoral reform efforts.
It’s apparent that Democrats acknowledge the flaws of FPTP voting, evident in discussions on social media where many Democrats caution against voting third party. It’s perplexing to recognize these flaws yet fail to take action to address them. Merely lecturing on the shortcomings of FPTP voting without pursuing solutions is insufficient.
Here are some videos on the topic if you’d like to know more:
First Past The Post voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Other electoral systems to choose from:
Alternative vote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
Ranked Choice voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z2fRPRkWvY
Range Voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3GFG0sXIig
Single Transferable Vote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI
STAR voting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-mOeUXAkV0
Mixed Member Proportional representation
You’re factually correct, and I support your long term goal, but it’s not something we can achieve by November.
I swear I hear this regardless of how close we are to the next presidential election. Can we maybe focus on some of the other races on the ballot? I would love if we could get a Congress that was actually able to make good things happen, instead of trying very hard to do nothing so bad things don’t happen.
Sorry, media is now handled at the national level so covering local and state races outside of ones that get clicks isn’t profitable
Oh, good! Is it also owned by large corporations who have interests that cause them to favor certain stories because it impacts their bottom line and the editorial desk does not have strong independence from the business side of things because of a monoculture of publishers? Surely, this will bring us a wide variety of political candidates and not an endless parade of arch-capitalists and fascists who give kickbacks to corporations!
Congress might also have been able to get more done if there was a filibuster-proof majority for more than several months in the last several decades.
I do vote for the most progressive person available in the primaries tho.
The fact that we even need a filibuster proof majority to get anything done is yet another glaring example of how fucked we are.
So, why do some blue states want to continueusing FPTP voting? Why continue using a voting system favored by Republicans? In states controlled by Democrats, there’s no Republican opposition hindering electoral reform efforts.
FPTP favors whichever party is currently in power in a two party system. Solid blue states don’t want to switch because it makes their hold on power less secure. Same reason as Republicans in red states.
Electoral systems is a pretty nerdy topic (despite how important it is for who gets power), so it is not an issue the typical voter cares for. Therefore there is not enough political capital for such large reforms to be taken on by politicians.
Based on the about of Lemmy comments advocating for it, it seems like the typical voter is pretty passionate about ranked choice voting.
Based on a super niche subset of chronically online youth - this applies to everyone. 🤪
Oh fuck this shit, rage-baiting motherfucker.
