• FryHyde@lemmy.zip
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    5 months ago

    TIL some people have an inner voice. What is for you folks, like imaginary sounds?

    • dezmd@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      My inner voice is my voice as I hear it, and is more obviously there when I’m contemplative or reflective on ideas and concepts, but it doesn’t seem to actively dictate or narrate most of my actions as I go through the day, except perhaps in anxiety or adrenaline peaking situations. It does seem more likely to flip to the forefront when there’s an ‘emergency’ sort of moment to help stay calm and rational where others may panic. I do have some ‘imagery’ thoughts but only when I’m on more of an autopilot with an activity.

      Interestingly, I can have very vivid and detailed dreams filled with unique imagery and events that can seem very real and my inner voice kicks on sometimes during dreams, and I recognize it as a dream. I have at times been able to influence the direction of a dream that my subconscious usually seems to be running. These dreams can be expansive, I’m talking deep backstory, knowing things and languages I do not know, knowing details about history or science or math that I do not know, and having a strange hyper awareness of existence around me that I do not have when awake. The only really ‘scary’ dreams I’ve had since I was a kid are ones where I can’t find my kids, or where my dad is still alive and shows back up at home like he was just living somewhere else for a while (and it’s not so much scary as just hyper-confusing and stressful). The dad dreams are also some of the best dreams to have that inner voice of awareness happen.

    • jupiter_jazz@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 months ago

      An asshole mostly, but that’s another issue. Helps you think through problems because you think about it before doing it. When I read fiction I try to imagine other voices. I read a lot when I was younger.

    • Gaspar@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 months ago

      Do you remember the last time you were talking to someone for more than a couple minutes? Maybe they were explaining something to you, or telling you a story. You might try to remember what they said later - you can’t hear it, but your brain kind of recreates the sensation of having been spoken to even though your ears aren’t receiving those sounds.

      That’s what having an inner voice is like (to me, anyway) - it’s remembering a conversation that you never actually had.

    • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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      5 months ago

      It’s just a voice inside your head that says what you’re thinking. Like when I’m typing this out it says the words as I type them or as I think ahead as to what to type.

        • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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          5 months ago

          There are times that it is quiet. If I’m thinking about music or something visual then my inner voice isn’t saying much. If I’m watching tv or listening to something it’s quiet, unless I think of something I have to do, like “fuck I’ve gotta send that email”. It’s generally pretty quiet if I’m doing something like drawing, but I may make little comments to myself in my head like “oh I need some more stuff over here” or something like that. If I meditate, I can keep it mostly quiet.

        • MataVatnik@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Yeah it’s constantly saying shit, a lot of the time its negative and I can’t get it to shut the fuck up.

          • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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            5 months ago

            Mines pretty positive. I tell myself how awesome I am a lot when I accomplish something. But I am pretty full of myself. Usually when it’s being snarky it’s about annoying situations or people.

  • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    5 months ago

    i still don’t understand what the fuck an internal monologue is supposed to be.

    I’ve heard it’s the thing that makes you do things, i’ve heard it’s a thing that just exists.

    I don’t know what it is, what it does, or what it seems to be for, and i don’t even know whether i have one.

    Science is a bitch sometimes.

    • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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      5 months ago

      for me it’s literally just my own voice (and i can mimic other voices) and i sort of hear it overlaid on everything else, sorta like what happens when you hold a hand in front of only one eye, you see both things at once.

      The only real difference from my physical voice is that there’s none of that delay and friction from having to physically speak, so it’s harder to prevent my inner monologue from saying stuff which is extremely annoying since i’m autistic and thus have echolalia, meaning i just reflexively repeat things i hear…

      The idea that other people have some sort of independent inner voice, or even several ones, is rather terrifying to me.

      • Revonult@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Mine doesn’t sound like anything but I can change the cadence or accent. Like it doesn’t make the “noise” as hearing. Like it bypasses those “channels”.

    • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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      5 months ago

      I think if you’d have one, you’d know. There’s zero confusion on my part whether it’s there. It’s definitely there talking to me any time I’m thinking of words.

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        i think the problem that i have, is that i have one, but only for certain activities, i don’t seem to have one for thought/verbal tasks. But when im working on something i’m designing i often have one present most of the time.

    • Olhonestjim@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      It’s my own voice in my head. Its difficult to determine on what level I control it. It doesn’t “make” me do things, but it’s not like I decide what it says before it speaks. I often wonder if it’s the other half of my brain. I speak differently in person than I do inside my head, or type, for that matter.

      Regardless whether it’s a kind of supplemental personality inside my head, one thing I’m convinced of is that many people mistake their internal monologue for the Voice of God.

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        huh, that’s weird, mine i have full control over. It’s thoughts are quite literally my thoughts. And my thoughts are it’s thoughts as well.

        maybe i’ve developed an artificial internal monologue?

        • Olhonestjim@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Oh, it’s certainly my thoughts. I’m just saying I don’t decide what to think before I think, you know? And I think in that voice, so I really can’t identify anything prior. It’s just me in here, but it’s a funny way to think about consciousness.

    • lazylion_ca@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      Its like being on the phone with yourself. Everything you read is spoken to you. When you see an accident about to hsppen, you hear ‘That guy is about to eat it.’ When you see an attractive person you hear ‘Niiiiccceee!’.

    • rocketpoweredredneck@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      for me, sometimes my internal monologue is like a very lazy audio book narrator who only reads the dialogue, and sometimes not even that. other times its like i have the whole cast of a radio drama in there, in the middle of the apex of the plot.

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        if that’s how it’s defined than i think i have some sort of weird hybrid of it. I have an internal monologue for certain things, like if im working on a project and need a design for it, that’ll cause me problems. But if i’m just sitting down and thinking about something, i’m usually talking it out. For example i’ve been into sociology a bit recently, and i’ve found myself talking out loud about things very frequently.

        weird.

          • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            5 months ago

            kind of? I sort of follow along with what i’m typing but it’s less of a written dialogue thing, and more of a phonetic rendition of it, if that makes sense.

            It follows the pace of my brain absorbing the words, as well as writing them out, which can make reading a chore sometimes. When i’m reading a book, i’m often absorbed enough to be able to engage with it pretty tightly, and i can usually follow along a lot better, with a stronger inner monologue, it’s weird.

            Like typing this post out right now inside of my head sounds more like trying to speak the words per syllable as you write them down on a piece of paper, as opposed to reciting them, if that makes any sense.

          • lazylion_ca@lemmy.ca
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            5 months ago

            Yes. It’s like being on the phone with someone whois reading everything out loud to you.

    • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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      5 months ago

      If it’s a different person than you, then you have a different issue ;-).

    • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      Eh, it isn’t all the time for most people, and it isn’t hard to shut down for most people either.

      The key is that it isn’t a separate entity, it’s just your own mind using words to ideate. Like, you can see the sky and just enjoy the blue, or you can think about the blue in words, if you have that inner voice. People without that voice still have a way of processing and thinking, it just isn’t in words, it’s more abstract.

      The few people I’ve met that don’t think in words do seem to have difficulty in expressing the experience to others though.

      • tburkhol@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        As someone with an inner voice, I can’t even imagine how I’d think about abstract concepts without words. Like, how does “I love freedom” or “I wish all people could be free” happen without words? Maybe this is a learning disability of mine, and explains why interpretive dance doesn’t make any sense to me.

        • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
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          5 months ago

          It’s like an instinct. You get the meaning behind the words without the words needing to be there.

        • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I didn’t think this “not using inner voice” thing applied to me, but the way I read the article maybe it does. If the inner voice is truly a voice using grammatical spoken language it sounds crazy limiting.

          As someone with an inner voice, I can’t even imagine how I’d think about abstract concepts without words. Like, how does “I love freedom” or “I wish all people could be free” happen without words?

          None of this is in words when I’m thinking about it. I’m putting words here to describe the concepts , thoughts and feelings, of each step but none of it is words when I’m thinking it.

          Freedom

          • limitless choice
          • peace and comfort
          • patriotism (to the extreme, ironic terms freedom being used as a method of control)
          • anti-freedom = slavery or being controlled
          • personal experience with making free choices
          • historical learning about situations where they didn’t have freedom
          • personal luck in being born in a (mostly) free country
          • imagining being born and living in a place without freedom
          • fictional examples of lack of freedom, like sci-fi dystopia
          • empathy about those that don’t have the same things I do
          • sense of justice about equality
          • memory of muscles used to make my mouth and larynx say the word “freedom” FREEEEEE — DUUMMM

          All of the above only takes a second or two of actual elapsed time.

          Words that come out:

          “I love freedom. I wish all people could be free”.

        • HubertManne@kbin.social
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          5 months ago

          Yeah I can’t imagine functioning without an inner voice. Mines constant. I can’t really make any decisions without internal debate and I have to sorta constantly keep track of things I need to this. after work im going to do x this weekend I need to get y and z done. W needs to get done before the end of the month.

          • Today@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I still think of all the things i need to do, it just sorta comes in chunks, not words or auditory.

          • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Mines constant. I can’t really make any decisions without internal debate and I have to sorta constantly keep track of things I need to this.

            A new perspective from this article on the topic I haven’t heard before is that what you’re describing may not be the “inner voice” being referred to.

            after work im going to do x this weekend I need to get y and z done. W needs to get done before the end of the month.

            I’m going to assume your native language is English (forgive me, replace with your own native language). When you’re having this internal debate, are your points and counterpoints in actual English language with a sentence structure noun+verb+adjective? This is what I’m reading in the article they say “inner voice” is.

            • “I really need to do laundry this weekend or I won’t have any clean socks on Monday”
            • “I’m going to play football with my friends. I’m excited to work on my kicking form again.”
            • “Have I paid the electric bill? What day does that arrive? How much money do I have in my account?”

            Or instead is it abstract concepts stacked on top and next to each other for comparison?

            • concept of obligation
            • playing out a scenario of the future where you wake up on Monday, open your sock drawer and find it empty
            • forecasting a sense of satisfaction from the completed task
            • calculation of consequences of not doing the task (again)
            • a slight self imposed discomfort to motivate you to complete the things to become comfortable again

            According to my read of the article, the first would be the “inner voice”, the second would NOT be. I have the second, not the first. How about you?

            • HubertManne@kbin.social
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              5 months ago

              no its totally words and sentences. I can’t honestly don’t know what my thoughts are outside of that except for visualizing things and like subconsicous things like hunches. Not sure if its related but im one of those people who if I say something its also whats going through my head and actually if im alone enough I just start verbalizing the internal dialogue. Like when I walk the dog I will talk with her. hmmm weather said no rain but those clouds look like they could rain so maybe I should have brought my rain hat but oh well we should finish up soon enough I don’t think we will go far on this one want to be able to get home quick if I need to…

              • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                no its totally words and sentences.

                That’s amazing to me! It would be so much extra effort for me to put things in words to think on them first. The only time I do that is when I’m testing how it will sound to someone else. Even then, I’ll build the sentences, and then simulate a person hearing them in concept with what I know of the audience to see how they would receive it, and what concepts they draw from what I say. Then I adjust the words as needed to get the thoughts across to the audience.

                I can’t honestly don’t know what my thoughts are outside of that except for visualizing things and like subconsicous things like hunches.

                The best metaphor I can think to describe it is assembling a jigsaw puzzle. You don’t need to describe the shape of the piece to be able to find a matching piece it fits into. The shape, size, edge, color, and pattern all inform you of where it will fit. That’s kind of a hunch. This conceptual thinking works similarly. There are “attachment points” to each concept that link them together with other mental abstracted concepts. There are places that don’t fit which let you know the pieces are unrelated.

                • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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                  5 months ago

                  For me it’s not that I can’t think without words, it’s just that the words are very useful tools for organizing my thoughts. I’ve been doing it all my life though so it doesn’t really require more effort than thinking in concepts. It’s like breathing, it happens automatically but I can stop or control it if I want to. When I stop my inner voice I would describe my thoughts as sort of fuzzy and ephemeral. I would easily forget them or have difficulty expressing them without first putting them into words.

        • snooggums@midwest.social
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          5 months ago

          Interpretive dance is about expressing feelings without words. Mimes convey a ton of meaning without words. Both use motion and body language in ways that not everyone is familiar with, kind of like speaking a language. Other things people do physically, like shaking hands, bowing, and hand gestures have regional meanings like verbal language does.

          Non-verbal communication can be hard, but then again speaking different verbal languages is a barrier too.

      • livus@kbin.social
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        5 months ago

        I don’t think cognitive processing without words is necessarily more abstract.

        Arguably if you’re processing concepts such as relative geographical location or how to cook a steak, spatial processing is at far less of a remove than converting it all over to words/symbols.

    • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      It’s not “some voice” talking “to you”, it really just feels like your thoughts are words, if they’re “word adjacent thoughts”.
      Like, thinking about how to phrase that first part, it felt like I was reciting the words I was thinking of typing, not like someone else was saying them to me.

  • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    It has its uses, helpful for remembering a short sequence of numbers for instance, or practicing a specific dialogue line that is going to be important, like for a job interview or something where you want a solid and confident delivery. But generally speaking I prefer it quiet, makes it infinitely easier to pay attention to my surroundings.

    Meditation is basically the practice of learning how to turn it off at will. Can take awhile, it doesn’t always seem to like being quiet. It also turns off other times though, like when you’re suddenly startled for instance.

      • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Yeah it confused me for so long

        Instructor: “what I want you to do is stop thinking”

        Me, internally: okay, done

        Instructor: “I know that may be the hardest thing to ask, but I want you to quiet your mind”

        Me, internally: yep, already did it

        Instructor: “once you learn how to stop the constant parade of thoughts in your head and just listen to the world around you, you will find great peace”

        Me, internally: I do that all the time what

            • Today@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              I don’t have words in my head but i still have thoughts that keep me awake. I’ve been practicing turning off my thoughts to sleep better. I focus hard on relaxing each body part for 3 breaths starting with a foot.

  • Gigan@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I wonder what causes this? Genetics, random, maybe issues during speech development as a child?

    • Sabre363@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      Probably a combination of environment (nurture) and simple evolution. The brain is a complex computer that handles a metric-fuck-ton of information. Some minor variation in how that information is processed or accessed is bound to develope, especially when the sample size is in the billions.

    • snooggums@midwest.social
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      5 months ago

      I don’t think issues is a great word for something that doesn’t have an obvious negative outcome.

      I have an inner monologue that is something like an auditory version of my thoughts. Reminds me of a movie narrator explaining what people arre thinking, but not a verbal exchange like the article describes. It is absolutely zero help in remembering things because it switches to my current thoughts, and doesn’t just run in the background. It doesn’t seem to be a negative at all, and it is hearing hearing what I’m thinking but not rrally hearing because it doesn’t sound like anyone in particular.

      On the visual side, I can’t picture something I haven’t seen before and only have brief flashes of what I have seen before. Can’t picture anything in my mind except the vaguest of stereotypical ideas, like a tropical island is a tiny island with a palm tree or a lagoon. Maybe the rough outline of a mountain peak. Can’t draw anything like that from imagination, but can do a pretty solid sketch of something that I have a visual reference for. Also not really an issue, since most things don’t require picturing them without seeing them, but it did derail my interest in art and I can’t do any of the meditation exercises that involve picturing myself somewhere.

      I assume any of these kinds of differences can be caused by a combination of genetics and environment since genes are expressed differently based on experience and environments can also impact people in ways that don’t involve genes.

  • Today@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I recently learned that some people do hear a voice in their head. Some see pictures too.

    • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      So, if you study a map of a building, noticing that it has a kitchen at a certain place, then in go inside the building (without the map), and someone says “go to the kitchen,” how do you know where the kitchen is? How do you imagine the paths, rooms, hallways to follow?

      If I told you “a pink and brown dog,” you can’t “see” that dog in your mind at all?

      • cynar@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Not op, but I have a very weak ability to visualise. The data is more abstracted. A map is a set of spacial connections that define an area. My brain has learnt to pull that from a map. What I can’t do is recall the map to figure out additional information. If my brain didn’t think it was relevant when I looked at it, the information is likely gone.

        There are definitely pros and cons to it. I’m not limited to what I could visualise, when thinking. This lets me dig deeper into more complex ideas and patterns. It also makes other tasks a lot harder. I struggle a lot with faces and appearances.

        As for the dogs, I have an abstracted “model” in my mind. The size and breed of the dogs is undefined. There are 2 dog entities in my mind. 1 brown, which is quite generic, the other has pink attached to it, that cross links it with poodles etc.

        I can personally push it to a visualisation, but it takes significant mental effort, and the results are unstable.

        • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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          5 months ago

          I’m not the OP either but my brain seems to work the same way that yours and theirs do. I’d say you did a good job of describing how it works for people like us.

          One difference though is that you don’t seem to have the visual recall that I do. I don’t have a “photographic” memory but I could probably recall the hypothetical map as a visual object and examine it for additional information that I didn’t notice the first time.

          I can personally push it to a visualisation, but it takes significant mental effort, and the results are unstable.

          You may actually be better at this than I am. Describing my results as “unstable” would charitable. I also don’t get dog breeds, just amorphous and blurry blobs with rorsarch like colors slapped on them.

          • cynar@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I also don’t get dog breeds, just amorphous and blurry blobs with rorsarch like colors slapped on them.

            That’s akin to what I get. The core structure is there, but it’s almost a sense of what should be there. It’s akin to seeing things out of the corner of your eye, while overtired. Your brain tells you what it is, and you accept it, it doesn’t necessarily match what you are actually ‘seeing’.

            I ‘know’ how dogs move, I ‘know’ their body structure. I can force that down to a single image, but it wants to be so much more. All the senses of ‘dogness’ compressed into a single entity.

          • cynar@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            It’s spacially based. It makes more sense in 3D. It’s just as compatible with echolocation as visual data. (The soundscape of a room tells you a LOT about your surroundings). I believe it’s based within my visual system, just stripped of the superfluous visualisations. Interestingly, I can actually map mathematics into the same structures.

            I’m doing a piss poor job of explaining it. Language lacks the nuance to describe it well, and I lack the skill to bend it into shape.

            • MeThisGuy@feddit.nl
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              5 months ago

              next question: how many times would you have to walk a new space (like a house) to remember it?

      • iamdisillusioned@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        The map would be tough. If someone showed me the map and said, go to the kitchen, I would try remember, turn left then right then its around to the left. I would remember it in words, not visually.

        Brown and pink dog…in my mind I see a hazy face of a poodle with fluffy pink ears. I can’t see the full dog. I can’t walk around the image and explore it more. Its just a hazy partial visual that flashes in my mind for a moment.

      • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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        5 months ago

        I definitely have both. I can even visualize things with my eyes open. I switch back and forth between modes depending on the content I’m working on in my head.

        • PrimeMinisterKeyes@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          So kind of like Werner Herzog then, who once stated that he never, ever dreams. But he keeps having visions with his eyes wide open, in broad daylight, all the time. He describes them in his terrific book “Of Walking in Ice.”

          • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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            5 months ago

            His thing sounds different. I do dream (often prolifically), and when I visualize with my eyes open it tends to be something I’m trying to visualize such as a new paint color, furniture placement. I’m pretty good at it, my visions usually work out pretty well when taken to action. I’m imagining them more than really seeing them, but I’m able to do it well enough to accomplish the tasks I need to visualize.

        • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I can even visualize things with my eyes open.

          Are you able to build complex visualizations while maintaining eye contact with someone? Once the concept becomes complex enough, I have to break eye contact with them (usually staring at nothing above their heads) and unfocus my eyes. Once I do that, the sky’s the limit on how complex the mental visual can get and be abstracted, but something about staring at a face (reading realtime facial reactions?) consumes the part of my brain I need for the very complex visuals.

          • realitista@lemm.eeOP
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            5 months ago

            That sounds pretty similar to me. I have to really be focusing to do it, if I were looking at someone and trying to do it, there would be a lot of competing sensory information. I could do something but it would keep getting broken up by distraction. It definitely works best just in a nice quiet room.

        • Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          Same. I thought it was that way for everyone. I can have a full conversation in my head while visually building something in a 3D mental image.

      • Today@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        There’s a kitchen off the hallway just past the bathroom on the left. No magic path to follow. I hate those video games where you just wander around! I can’t see a dog - i don’t know what kind of dog, size/shape of its parts, what parts are brown, what parts are pink, … If you said poodle or German shepherd, and i focused hard i could get sort of a loose wire frame outline.

      • EmptySlime@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        5 months ago

        For me it’s even weirder than that. Those pictures exist in my mind and I can “feel” them there but the conscious part of me that’s supposed to see them can’t see shit. I can describe to you the things that are in them or even draw them out as they exist in my mind, but I can’t see them. The part of me that’s giving directions? It can “see” the map of the building and my position in it just fine like it’s staring straight at a live minimap, but the conscious part of me that should be able to visualize that stuff? Nothing. I close my eyes and try to visualize that dog and I see nothing but black. But I can feel the presence of the image that the part of me that does the mental conjuring of images is making.

        It’s like turning the monitor off on a computer. Everything is still running even though you can’t see it.

      • CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        So, if you study a map of a building, noticing that it has a kitchen at a certain place, then in go inside the building (without the map), and someone says “go to the kitchen,” how do you know where the kitchen is? How do you imagine the paths, rooms, hallways to follow?

        I know this isn’t true of everybody with alphantasia, but what I do in this situation is I get lost. I can’t visualize walking through the space while I study the map, and I can’t bring the map to mind when I’m actually there. Some people with aphantasia have no trouble finding their way around, so I think in my case it must be that I’m missing some innate sense of direction as well that visualization might have helped me to compensate for, if only I could.

        If I told you “a pink and brown dog,” you can’t “see” that dog in your mind at all?

        Correct. I’m not 100% on the aphantasia spectrum, so if I think about it then I might get the briefest flash of some dog, like an afterimage at best, and I can’t hold it in my mind, or manipulate it, or see any details or color. It’s not even really a complete outline or anything either that flashes for that quarter-second.

        When I read a book, I don’t know what the characters or places look like. But I have always been able to draw really well. So it’s really a mystery how this all works.

    • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      The mind of an artist perhaps? I can see vivid film grade depictions of whatever I want in any style I can imagine.

      Its quite frustrating when I know my hands could never produce what I see in my mind.

    • livus@kbin.social
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      5 months ago

      For the longest time I assumed it was just a literary device, not an actual thing anyone really does.

      • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        So, if I tell you “I’ll give you $10,000 for you to spend in 24 hours. Spend 20 seconds to think about it,” what goes through your head? Don’t you hear anything like “shit, that’s a lot of money?! Where to start, where to start…”?

        Don’t you “have words” in your head to form thoughts?

        • thirteene@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Not op, but I’m curious if anyone will help me understand my own reality. I immediately close my eyes to make the experience authentic.

          “I have to spend 10 grand in 24 hours” as a imaginary verbal statement. (internal monologue?). Then I “lookup” spending money memories and create an object in my head without any attributes. I can tell it has emotional attachment from the memories, best described as a label. (I determine to go online shopping without much thought).

          “most likely buy raw materials like gold”. [Pause]. But what’s unique about this situation that I can take advantage of? 24 hours [trail off]. Bonds would be easy and just postpone payment. Is laundering an option? Why is this person giving away 10k? What damage can it do?"

          As the passenger, it feels like large derivitive stuff is silent. The inner dialogue is mostly probing. But here is a significant amount of silence betweens questions. I don’t have a visual canvas.

          Are others answering these questions? Frequently, I have a silent mind but pondering takes probing.

          • livus@kbin.social
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            5 months ago

            It sort of sounds like yoi do it as a way of externalizing the questions, like it’s a different part of your brain or your brain wants to make it clear to you that the question process is different from the answer process.

            To me a question feels like knowing there’s something behind my occipital bone and sensing it moving forward towards my eyes. So it’s not verbalised but it’s definitely a separate feeling.

          • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Interesting! In my case, if I remember all of a sudden that I have to do laundry tomorrow, but there’s a conflict, then I’ll “speak” in my mind, with my own voice, saying “oh shit, tomorrow I have Bob’s party and I haven’t done laundry yet - all my clothes are dirty!!” Well, maybe with not that many words. Maybe more like “Oh shit, I forgot! How do I solve this…?”

        • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
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          5 months ago

          No words here at all. I generally don’t use words for thinking unless I’m trying to think of a sentence or something like that.

          • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I wish we could swap brains for five minutes. But what is “thinking” for you? Can you picture things in your mind? Moving objects? Suppose that you’re looking for a spoon and open your silverware drawer, and it’s unexpectedly filled with cotton candy. And you live alone! What goes through your head?! Because the first thing that goes through my head is surprise, followed by the phrase “what the fuck?!?!?!?!”

            • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
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              5 months ago

              I also can’t picture anything in my mind either. It’s like a different language that is based on feelings instead of words. You know when you move next to a fire and you feel hot? You don’t need any words to feel hot, right? It’s kinda like that. I would open the drawer and feel a “this isn’t right” feeling.

        • livus@kbin.social
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          5 months ago

          @laughterlaughter

          Don’t hear anything like “shit, that’s a lot of money?! Where to start, where to start…”

          No and it’s amazing to me that you’d even be able to think of it in 20 seconds with all that chatter in your brain.

          As I was reading your comment I could sort of hear parts of that, because it’s you “speaking” to me, but as soon as I saw it the $10,000 imediately became a sort of conceptual bundle located in front of me, the 24h was like a moving spatial cycle thing and my brain was plotting possibilities based on how far I would have to travel (the ones falling inside the cycle are the do-able ones) and locating a whole lot of stuff branching out from my computer with short action times.

          Also my brain had immediately reached to the right hand middle distance which is where it “keeps” investment advice. It had a quick dart to the far away centre-left and I had a flash/photorealistic image of home furnishings out there but rejected instantly as the tangled sense of moving parts between me and it meant the process toward them is complex and would take up too much of the 20 second processing time to even see if they would fit in the 24h cycle.

          • livus@kbin.social
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            5 months ago

            @southsamurai did the above comment make sense?

            It’s hard because we have to translate it to get it across -for me it feels a bit like being asked how do you know where your arms are relative to your body.

            • MeThisGuy@feddit.nl
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              5 months ago

              about the arms. spacial awareness… and a surprising number of ppl don’t have that

          • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Fantastic! Thank you for answering, and I have a similar process going on in my brain as well - but it’s combined with “me talking” as well. For example, if I become aware of that “right hand side” investment section you described, I’d probably say’ “ooh investing, maybe?”

            • livus@kbin.social
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              5 months ago

              Thanks, that makes sense! But I don’t understand how that could fit in temporally? Like, wouldn’t you have already got halfway through the possible investment overview while you were still talking? Or is it more that you’re doing both at once?

              • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Correct, at once. Like a teacher who is writing on something on the whiteboard while speaking.

                Or that scene in Minority Report in which Tom Cruise is going through videos/scenes/etc with his hands while saying things loud to himself.

          • laughterlaughter@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            We don’t disagree with this one, but I don’t see how this is relevant. I wish I could ask a baby this question, but they can’t answer, can they? So I’m asking OP instead.

            • calabast@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              Ah sorry, I think I misread your previous comment as if you were saying you had to have words to think, maybe implying other people were not correct when they said they didn’t have words? And I was trying to say it was possible, but I see you weren’t actually trying to argue that now, so nvm!

              I also don’t think I’m a words person. Sometimes I’ll talk out loud to myself while I’m doing something, and I definitely CAN think my thoughts as words in my head, but yeah usually I just do stuff without it. I mean to some degree everyone does things without brain words, right? If you’re getting ready for bed, so you think “now I need to stand up, now I move my left foot, now my right, now I move my right arm to pick up the toothbrush”. Like, you have to take some actions without narrating them, right? We’re just like that, but more so 😄

        • Knitwear@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          It’s like I “know” all the options (pros and cons and obstacles and things to think about) all at once, any time I have is then spent on the emotional consequences of them. But more time doesn’t usually mean discovering more options.

          • CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works
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            5 months ago

            So like… how do you think through ideas? Philosophize? You don’t bounce ideas around in your head and deeply weigh multiple options? It’s just… empty?

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Personally, when I’m working through a problem, I’ll usually force it into words (either out loud or to myself), but that’s a conscious action rather than a subconscious response. I choose to speak those things, and it’s me (not an amorphous voice) who speaks them.

              But often after forcing the thoughts into words I’ll hit upon an interesting thread, and my mind will leap ahead faster than spoken language can catch up. It’s only when I hit a roadblock that I slow things down into language-speed.

              • CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works
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                5 months ago

                I mean that’s the same as anyone. When people talk about their inner voice, the voice is still them. They’re in control of what it says. It can get a little out of hand sometimes (like getting a song stuck in your head) but ultimately it’s you doing it.

                Same with being able to “leap ahead” faster than the spoken word. Like, if someone gets a knife pulled on them they don’t have to think “I will run now”, they simply run. The internal monologue is an addition, not a replacement, if that makes sense.

    • Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz
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      5 months ago

      Only 1-3% of people lack the ability to visualize images in their head.

      Somewhat related, I recently realized I can’t really remember the taste of food at all. I can remember the texture of the food, and whether I liked it or not, but not how it actually tastes. For example, I know I like chocolate but I have no desire to eat it most of the time because I can’t remember anything about the taste except for the texture. But once I start eating chocolate and have the taste lingering in my mouth, I find myself craving more of it until the taste fades and I forget what it tasted like again.

      • Today@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        When I first learned that other people see and hear, I started asking around. From My polling, about 30% of people either don’t hear or don’t see. I’ve only found a handful of people who don’t do either. I read some articles that say you can train the visual.

      • Today@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Oh man! That is a perfect example! I have not able to understand the voice or the picture… Like you actually hear a voice or you see an image??.. But I totally understand the taste - almost like the shadow of a taste in your mouth for something that sounds good. I guess that’s why what people say, “what do you have a taste for”?)

    • TexasDrunk@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I have some very loud voices in my head. One is intentional, like when I read or write things out I hear my own voice in my head. At least one of them just talks shit to me all the time. It’s not like schizophrenia “I hear voices”, it’s just a thought that I’m not actively having. When my depression gets bad it’s gets really loud so I drown it out with music and books.

      I can’t see pictures in my head.

      On another note, I’m pretty sure religious nutjobs really hear their own inner monologue and think it’s a god talking to them. That’s why their god always agrees with them.

  • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Honestly I’d kind of like that in some ways. Language is actually pretty limiting, so not being stuck with it for thinking would make some thoughts easier to convey to yourself.

    • bstix@feddit.dk
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      5 months ago

      I don’t think it’s limited like that. While I usually think in sentences, it also happens that I get ideas that I either can’t express in words or it happens so fast that I don’t bother trying to think it through in sentences.

      Try to think of a house and notice how you don’t need to describe it in any detail to instantly visualise how you think a house looks.

      It’ll be interesting to hear what they find in the ongoing research, but it’s already clear that the brain is not just a large language model.

  • danekrae@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    “Weirdos. I don’t have an inner voice”, most people thought, using their inner voice.

  • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I’m one of the 5-10%. I always sucked at verbal memory tasks. Didn’t know some people have an real, interpretable internal monologue until a few years ago. I thought thinking nonverbally was the default. I even specifically remember watching shows and movies where you listen to a character’s internal internal monologue and thinking “this is dumb, that’s not how thinking works”. Turns out it is, and I’m just in the minority! Now I make an effort to manually start an internal monologue when I’m doing anything that requires a lot of verbal processing, like listening to instructions at work. It helps, but I can still tell that I have a deficit compared to most people when it comes to those things.

    • Elextra@literature.cafe
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      5 months ago

      TIL. I’m one of the 5-10% as well!! I have not noticed a deficit in verbal memory… I’m more interested reading the comments and learning today that people have inner voices?!?

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Basically if I know you well I hear your voice in my head argue for a pov I know you hold. If you are say a safety-first kinda guy I will hear you lecture me when I am not being safe. I got a committee arguing all the time and I admit it sometimes becomes hard to remember if I mentioned X to my mental version of someone or the real someone.

        Yes I am aware that the voices I hear are not real. It is just the way my brain is presenting information to itself. Like writing down notes in different colored inks. It is all the same letters and words but with an added change.

      • lagomorphlecture@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Yes! You’ve seen TV shows where people are thinking words in their heads or whatever…based on reality!

        • Today@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I think of cartoons - some people have word bubbles for ideas - some of us just have a lightbulb.

    • lagomorphlecture@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      “It helps, but I can still tell that I have a deficit compared to most people when it comes to those things.”

      I was totally gonna ask you about this until I got to the end! It seems like thinking without any kind of internal monologue would be incredibly abstract which might be good for some things but it would probably suck ass for trying to remember or understand extremely detailed instructions and things like that! I’m so curious what it’s like to think the way you do and I wish I could flip a switch for a little bit to experience it because it’s kind of hard to really imagine what I would be like.

      • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        It’s strange because while we can use words to describe our thought processes, understanding how someone else thinks isn’t really possible since we only have one frame of reference (our own minds) and words can only go so far in describing cognition. We can only observe differences in task performance and speculate as to the underlying causes on a cognitive level, maybe make some correlations here and there in the process. So weird!

    • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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      5 months ago

      Your anecdote seems to support that it’s a learned behavior/skill, which tracks for me. I have a very active internal dialogue that’s difficult to turn off. I say dialogue instead of monologue because I often make up “other voices” that bounce ideas off each other, and this generally happens without my conscious effort. I think I developed this because as I was growing up I was encouraged to pray regularly, and I was very fanatically religious as a kid so I did so as often as I could. I prayed silently so often in fact that my thoughts were basically a constant one-sided monologue directed to god. Whenever I would daydream or let my imagination wander I would imagine god responding, and eventually the constant monologue became a dialogue. I would work out problems or make decisions by having conversations with an imaginary god. When I stopped believing in god the second voice never went away, I just started recognizing it as my own.

      • mrcleanup@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        I am trying to wrap my head around this. So if you are just walking down the street alone, watching cars go by, not reading, there a voice? What would it even be saying?

        • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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          5 months ago

          Yes, multiple voices, probably debating what I’m going to cook for dinner later. At this point I might be going a bit too far anthropomorphizing the voices, it’s not like actual separate personalities, they’re all me. It’s more like perspective taking. I’m engaging in a conversation with myself and the different voices will take different stances. For example I might have a “lazy voice” that just wants to eat leftovers and a “craving voice” that wants to cook tacos. I decide what to do by having the voices hash it out.

          As I’m describing this it all sounds very intentional and like I’m playing pretend, but it really is just automatic.

      • lagomorphlecture@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        There’s actually a theory that back in ye olden times when inner monologues first started, people thought it was God talking to them because it was a new phenomenon and that didn’t have any way to understand that it was some kind of evolution of consciousness, not a god.

          • Zetaphor@zemmy.cc
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            5 months ago

            I mean the NVIDIA stock price speaks for itself, I think Jensen is onto something

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Ha! Good one.

              On a serious note here are the issues

              • He can’t explain how the event impacted the rest of the world. Only a fraction of the human race was there. How does he explain China for example?
              • We already know that meta-cognition isn’t limited to humans. A rat that knows where food is vs ones that do not engage in different behaviors.
              • He can’t explain the almost superhuman reflex speeds some people have in modern times under his model.

              I do agree some of it rings true. Just very hard to pin down what exactly.

      • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Okay, now I have to know if religious individuals are more likely to have an inner voice. That just makes sense!!!

        • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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          5 months ago

          Perhaps! I also think internal monologues can develop just from learning to read and write silently. Having an inner voice makes it easier to absorb the information in a book or to plan out your writing in advance.

          • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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            5 months ago

            Having an inner voice makes it easier to absorb the information in a book

            I think all of our brains are wired different and the different wiring leads to advantages in one thing but it’s probably a disadvantage for others. For instance I have no inner voice but my reading speed, with comprehension, is well faster than nearly anyone I’ve ever met. I can even sometimes recall precisely where on a page a given word or phrase was located, even years after reading the material. However I’m almost entirely unable to imagine a 3 dimensional object and rotate it in my “minds eye”.

            • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              I have an inner voice but I don’t use it when I’m reading, which is maybe why I am a very fast reader.

              I tend to use it when pondering on things. That said I just noticed that when composing and cross-checking this text for posting, I also used it.

              Curiously, nowadays my inner voice is not just in my own mothertongue but can be in just about any of the languages I know enough for basic conversation. It’s probably related to, because my foreign language skills are so advanced (I can speak about 7 languages) that I’ve long stopped translating to my native tongue in my mind and concepts just translate directly from those foreign languages. Also, I’ve lived in a couple of countries and as I would eventually end up mainly speaking the local language, my inner voice would also, eventually, end up also using that language.

              • MeThisGuy@feddit.nl
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                5 months ago

                very interesting because I moved back to my home country 5 yrs ago after living abroad for 24. still think in my secondary language after being alone with my thoughts long enough

            • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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              That does make me wonder if maybe I use my inner voice as a bit of a crutch when I’m reading, but I think it helps me infer tone and get immersed in what I’m reading. Perhaps I am sacrificing some reading speed but I do believe it helps me with comprehension and memory.

              Though I will add that it’s more the concepts that I remember than the words themselves. Give me a quote and I couldn’t tell you what page and where on the page it was, but I could tell you what was happening in that scene, what happened before and after, what the character was feeling and why they said it, who they said it to and so on.

            • Today@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Same on remembering exactly where i read something. I used to be a fast reader - out of practice. Maybe it’s being able to skim instead of hearing every word?

      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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        5 months ago

        Whoaaaa that’s so interesting. I grew up silently praying in the daily as well, and also tend to have dialogues going on in my head. Also a stream of unsolicited advice, which is less pleasant… But I’d probably miss it if it went away.

        • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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          5 months ago

          Learning to get over religious shame and guilt took quite some time for me, and I still have to catch myself sometimes when an inner voice says things I no longer believe/agree with. Part of getting over that meant cultivating other voices. When one voice bites another bites back lol.

          As a plus I’m very good in a debate.

    • troglodytis@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      You get to think in ways that other people can’t. You actually have a super power. Don’t sleep on that! You rock

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      5 months ago

      I’m with you. Your movie reference really helped solidify it. I assumed I was one of the lonely minds, but this made it clear.

      Some things that seem associated with this are my constant cravings for social interaction and intellectual conversation. I can’t give it to myself. I have never understood how people can just do nothing. I never had an invisible friend as a kid. There are many things people say and do that could be explained by having personal voices. There are many struggles with communicating to others that have already had a conversation with themselves before I can share a full thought.

  • troglodytis@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I’m almost the exact opposite. I hear everything when I think. I don’t picture 99.9% of my thoughts. I think in sounds. Not all thoughts are languages, but all thoughts are sounds. Even the very very few I have pictured. The thoughts in languages are numerous at a time and constant, as though forever lightning in bottle. I love it. It sounds kind of like the matrix looks.

    • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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      5 months ago

      are you capable of visualizing things? some time ago i learned that most people apparently can literally see things they picture in their head, which is something i’m only barely capable of doing if i close my eyes and relax.

      Like i can summon the image of a basic shape and make it rotate at a consistent speed, that’s it. But then when i’m extremely relaxed and almost about to fall asleep, or when i’m dreaming, i literally just see my imagination as if i’m looking at the real world.

      However what i can do is “visualize” extremely well with the sense of proprioception (the thing that lets you know where your hands are in relation to the rest of your body), so i can rotate objects in my headspace and walk through physical spaces. I can’t see anything in there, but i’m fully aware of the shape of things and i simply remember what colour things are.

      • troglodytis@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        The best I can describe it is almost always no, I hear spaces, objects, colors, etc. I can think on all my senses pretty easily except vision. I world make in ‘sound’ and awareness. I don’t explain it well, and I do have pretty good spacial and situational awareness. I just don’t think in vision.

        A great ‘reset button’ for me is to be in a small room that is totally as dark as I can get it. Can’t see my hand in front of my face after 45min dark. After a while in that space my mind will make up slashes of color. It feels like my brain running a test pattern for my eyes.

  • redcalcium@lemmy.institute
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    5 months ago

    Those are probably the quick-thinker types. I wonder if people with inner voices take longer when making decision because they have to “listen” to the their inner voices.

    • cynar@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I’ve got both pathways in my brain. Thinking without words is definitely faster. Verbal thought is better for communication and crystallisation of ideas. I.e. I think about something non-verbally, then internally verbalise the conclusions to help fix it in my memory and communicate it.

    • Knitwear@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      A friend asked me the same thing, they have a back and forth of voices, at significant speed, and then they reach a decision. Whereas I just “know” all the pros and cons (to the best of my ability) all at once if that makes sense?

      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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        5 months ago

        I don’t know what it is I know, except that if I start flapping my gums the ol’ blackbox will fill in the details. I kind of realise it as I’m saying it lol

    • BruceTwarzen@kbin.social
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      5 months ago

      I don’t think i’m a quick thinker guy, but my reflexes are shockingly good. Like i i sometimes knock something over while cooking and i just see it in the corner of my eyes and somehow catch it midair. But in this fraction of a second my inner monologue still goes: i just knocked something over, but what, oh right, i put the soda stream bottle on the counter because i just emptied the dishwasher. Oh no it’s also probably the glass one, because i have three glass bottles and only one that is plastic, so this could bet really messy when it breaks, they are also kinda expensive.
      And then i somehow hold it in my hand before i fully caught up. Kinda like when you snooze for 10 minutes but have like 2 hours worth of dreams.

    • livus@kbin.social
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      5 months ago

      Have to admit the number of people in here with full internal voices has made me realize why podcasts and long videos of youtubers talking are so popular.

      I hate them because it’s like spending 10 minutes to be drip fed 1 minute’s worth of information.

      • Today@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        I hate videos of talking and i don’t understand why tiktok is popular. I can skim an article without watching 10 minutes of crap.

  • Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz
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    5 months ago

    I’m not really sure if I count as having an inner voice thinker or not. I definitely use an inner voice when composing verbal/written thoughts, and when I’m trying to remember something specific. However trying to pay attention to my inner thought process makes it seem like my thoughts are mostly non-verbal with occasional sporadic words thrown in? It feels like the more relaxed I am the fewer words there are.