I don’t disagree, but there are variations in how these go. This one here aounds like a friendly, good-natured way to teach a younger mind not to believe everything they hear
I think there is an important lesson here though. It’s not really about not knowing but not thinking. An inquisitive nature is hard to instill, jokes/games/play are ways humans communicate these abstract processes.
This isn’t hazing, is a father son joke. People thinking this is hazing is my point.
Hazing:
"
The imposition of strenuous, often humiliating, tasks as part of a program of rigorous physical training and initiation.
“army cadets were hospitalized for injuries caused by hazing”
humiliating and sometimes dangerous initiation rituals, especially as imposed on college students seeking membership to a fraternity or sorority.
“seven officers of the fraternity were charged with hazing”
"
Walking to a store for paint that doesn’t exist does not align with the severity described in the definition from Oxford languages. OP experienced a prank.
Yes ‘it’s just a prank’ that magic excuse which works 100% of the time at convincing no one.
I’m not playing semantics, what I’m saying is that this type of behavior however you label it is often harmful in a number of ways.
You disagree and that’s why I likened you to the boomers who used to say ‘I was beaten and it never did me any harm’ society will continue to improve and one day people will look back and say ‘wow watching old media is hard, they’re all such needless assholes, no wonder they were always having so many proplems’
Being sent to walk to the store is not a beating. It is not hazing.
Not being able to take a harmless prank (yes I mean harmless. Walking to a store and asking an employee for a product that does not exist is not harm) is fragility.
I could see how sending a kid to the store might be a bit too far, but aside from that it’s just harmless teasing. Nothing more than a mild practical joke.
Kids can handle jokes. It’s important to learn to laugh at yourself and not take everything seriously. Otherwise you just end up being boring and stuck up.
We know that, through much study, it really isn’t. And the negatives outweigh the positives especially compared to other methods. It’s a trauma response more than anything at that point and if it does work they probably just used those skills to realize what an asshole the shamer was/is.
I’m not here to play olympics with people who struggle to empathize with others. I’m sorry awful things have happened to you, that doesn’t give you any right to invalidate someone else’s pain.
You and another person can experience the exact same things and one can be traumatized while the other is not.
Telling your children lies can be traumatic no matter what the context is, because it teaches the kid not to believe what you say is true or to expect fuckery, a bit like the crying wolf thing.
Am I traumatizing my children telling them about Santa?
Personally I’m good with my children being suspicious of me. Don’t trust me blindly just because I’m an authority, trust me because you know me and my motivations.
Am I traumatizing my children telling them about Santa?
Depending on what you are telling them, you could be. If they are afraid of Santa and you use him as a boogeyman, absolutely. If you teach your kids that he is always watching and judging, and can be used to exact punishment against them, there’s potential for it to cause trauma.
Teaching kids little myths for fun is generally harmless, but inventing things for your kids to be scared of, especially to exert psychological control over them, can do real harm. Actively lying to children because you think they’re stupid or gullible just earns you a shit reputation with your kids as they grow older and realize you don’t have any respect for them.
Don’t trust me blindly just because I’m an authority, trust me because you know me and my motivations.
Or don’t trust you, because you told lies and destroyed the foundation of trust by doing so.
Love when everyone on the internet turns into a developmental psychologist because of some ribbing.
I’ve been bullied, beaten, hell I’ve watched people die. Those are traumatic.
Being asked to find a thing that doesn’t exist is not traumatic. It might be a little mean, but it does teach a lesson to use your head when you’re working on projects.
Are we doing pain olympics? Just because someone has it better or less immediately noticeable doesn’t mean it’s less valid. It might be less extreme but telling they don’t have trust issues because you saw someone die doesn’t help anyone.
I’m sorry you had to go through that, it sounds awful. Being regularly expected to be and treated like a gullible idiot by people who have power over you isn’t fun either.
Yeah I’m with you a 100%, but this very much isn’t appropriate behaviour towards a child imo. They may recover, or they may end up on Lemmy rationalising it 20 years later as “hazing” to the horror of onlookers.
JFC. How will the child ever recover from a joke they figured out in the middle! Poor kid is probably still in therapy 31 years later! Just their life completely ruined by realizing a can of paint can’t come in two different colors. I think the dad should be in jail to this day for such heartless abuse.
That took me, like, a minute to google both of those answers. C’mon, dude.
Yea good point. I tried to search “does shaming actually teach” but needed to move to “does shaming someone…”. Reading the articles I think “humiliation” is more the keyword here.
The problem with shame, in my experience, has been that it might reinforce one very specific thing strongly but it also closes people off to learning anything else. If they learn the wrong thing, new information changes what’s right, or they simply don’t know something yet it’s hard for them to admit that they’re wrong/missing info.
Being shouted at by an authority figure for leaving your dishes out, for example, might make sure you can’t see a dish without remembering that horrible event so you put it away but the extra baggage that comes with is so not worth it, not even a little.
Maladaptive learning, being bullied into certain behaviors makes you worse at others.
You learn a task like washing dishes but also a behavior like focusing only on outward appearance or letting other considerations go to the wayside to complete visually obvious tasks - the result may be using short cuts like improper cleaning methods which result in sickness (cleaning only the visible dirt) but also could lead to a culture of hiding faults (why do our guns look so clean but misfire so often, why are these reports filled in neatly and completely but ikey information is often wrong or fabricated)
The army and others try moving away from it but of course it’s hard getting the changes through to people because when the army experts say ‘stop hazing it’s making us worse’ everyone that was hazed says ‘I was hazed and I’m the best possible version of myself!!!’ or ‘This is just liberal nonsense making us weak!’
100% for days, yea. None of it ever gets to the root cause and it all comes back eventually.
It feels like most of the world runs on it from thousands of years of reinforcing those behaviours. If the threat of death or jail time is what you got for communication, even just as the messenger, then why even bother?
It really isn’t. Think about a kid embarrassing their parent over some tech thing they don’t know.
*Taking from my other reply:
To understand something (think critically) you need to know the information. So it boils down to embarrassing someone for not knowing things. There is too much in life to know absolutely everything, thus my example on tech.
The parent is supposed to teach the child that information. Not mock and embarrass them for not already knowing it.
My grandmother can use her iPhone just fine, thanks. Old people just grew up still very deep in the “shame” style of teaching and so many are incredibly hesistant to learn knew things. They ‘re either proud they don’t know so it’s “cool” or laugh it off and say “haha old dog!”. Learning the new thing would require exposing themselves to a lot of information they don’t know and the struggle of learning it which all that trauma makes them afraid of.
It’s critical thinking. In life, it’s not always about knowing but about understanding.
It’s also about having thick skin and the ability to take a joke. Nobody is hurt, it is funny when you think about it, and it will encourage you to think about things in the future.
I do not need to know turn signals don’t require blinker fluid. Because it’s a fuckin light bulb.
The people in this comments section are acting like this is somehow traumatic. How fucking sheltered are you people?
To understand something (critically think) you need to know the information. So it boils down to embarrassing someone for not knowing things. There is too much in life to know absolutely everything, thus my example of the kid embarrassing the parent for some tech thing they don’t know.
The parent is supposed to teach the child that information. Not mock and embarrass them for not already knowing it.
These types of light hazing are actually trying to lower the stakes. The greybeards get to tell the stories of when they were young and dumb going on snipe hunts. we all make mistakes, developing the ability to laugh at YOURSELF is important. Its an inoculation against embarrassment. If someone is so prideful that they cant stand to ever be wrong, when the make a mistake that matters, they will try to hide it and that is when things go from bad to worse.
They will hide mistakes when mistakes are not accepted. When they will be punished or laughed at for making mistakes. So which parent will kids trust? The one that sets them up to be embarrassed? Or the one that is safe to approach?
There are plenty of mistakes in life, you really don’t need to set up your kids to make even more. All you’re teaching your kid is that they can’t trust you, to whatever degree.
Yeah. In this case you’d need to know that paint is a liquid, and comes in a can. Is it logical that paint is going to come in stripes? How would that be applied to a brush? How would that be applied to a wall?
If you take 2 seconds to think you realize this is a nonsensical request.
If you think everything in this world needs to be explained to you, you aren’t going to get very far. Also an important lesson to learn.
Learning to use a software interface, or the intricacies of how a thing works is not necessarily dependant on critical thinking. Understanding that a light bulb is not powered by blinker fluid, or that a liquid paint could not possibly be sold and applied to a wall in stripes is dependent on critical thinking.
And honestly I’m just amazed at how thin skinned people are that they’re labeling a harmless joke as traumatizing. If you really need everything in life explained to you, expect to not get very far.
Aww cry more about it. I’m an LGBTQ refugee that fled Russia. Most of my life I’ve lived under the constant very present fear of deportation, death or at least homelessness, just to hold on another day. What’s worse is I fled to the UK, which looks more and more like Russia every day.
Very little bothers me personally and if anything I have developed an unhealthy habit of thriving on conflict, but that doesn’t prevent me from empathising with others and seeing how some things affect people differently.
It’s called going outside and touching grass and realising people have different contexts for things and that the world is very harsh and parents need not pile on that shit for a kid who may already have trust and confidence issues and viewing things systemically - using actual critical thinking - rather than simply humble bragging about how “tough” you are and how everyone else must be thin skinned and weak.
It’s a slippery slope to reactionary thinking of “good” and “bad” people and that makes it way worse than just macho posturing. I hope you can see my perspective but good day either way.
And nowhere in there did you touch on how sending a kid to the store for striped paint could somehow cause trauma, rather than teach a valuable lesson about gullibility, critical thinking, and being able to laugh at one’s self.
Not everything in this world is as serious as escaping a country to avoid punishment or death for who you are. Having the emotional intelligence to differentiate between the serious and light hearted is something a person should develop when they’re young or life will be much harder for them.
cause trauma, rather than teach a valuable lesson about gullibility, critical thinking, and being able to laugh at one’s self.
Because it was already stated in the thread: parents shouldn’t lie to their children to take advantage of their trust to teach them that trusting them leads to them set up for embarrassment and that they’re an idiot. Idk how this isn’t obvious but I guess beating kids was acceptable and reasonable too.
Emotional intelligence to differentiate
That’s absurd, what’s funny and light-hearted to one is usually at the expense of another (in this case), and sans reading their mind, you have no idea how they feel about your “just banter bro”, you’re just assuming this because you have no ability to imagine that anyone at any time might feel differently to you and you’re scared to confront that idea.
I’m not saying that harmless playful teasing is impossible or should be banned, but this doesn’t really come off as that, and the experiences ITT don’t either, especially with descriptions of such things as “hazing” which often also includes things that are without question just violent abuse/bullying.
Embarrassing someone for not knowing something is stupid.
I don’t disagree, but there are variations in how these go. This one here aounds like a friendly, good-natured way to teach a younger mind not to believe everything they hear
As far as pranks go, this one’s pretty harmless. The trick is not taking oneself too seriously.
I think there is an important lesson here though. It’s not really about not knowing but not thinking. An inquisitive nature is hard to instill, jokes/games/play are ways humans communicate these abstract processes.
Holy shit Lemmy is fragile
People who were hazed often suffer empathy problems and emotion stunting.
It could be that like many boomers you’re just not aware of the damage generational trauma has caused you.
This isn’t hazing, is a father son joke. People thinking this is hazing is my point.
Hazing: " The imposition of strenuous, often humiliating, tasks as part of a program of rigorous physical training and initiation. “army cadets were hospitalized for injuries caused by hazing” humiliating and sometimes dangerous initiation rituals, especially as imposed on college students seeking membership to a fraternity or sorority. “seven officers of the fraternity were charged with hazing” "
Walking to a store for paint that doesn’t exist does not align with the severity described in the definition from Oxford languages. OP experienced a prank.
I’m not a boomer.
Yes ‘it’s just a prank’ that magic excuse which works 100% of the time at convincing no one.
I’m not playing semantics, what I’m saying is that this type of behavior however you label it is often harmful in a number of ways.
You disagree and that’s why I likened you to the boomers who used to say ‘I was beaten and it never did me any harm’ society will continue to improve and one day people will look back and say ‘wow watching old media is hard, they’re all such needless assholes, no wonder they were always having so many proplems’
Being sent to walk to the store is not a beating. It is not hazing.
Not being able to take a harmless prank (yes I mean harmless. Walking to a store and asking an employee for a product that does not exist is not harm) is fragility.
I could see how sending a kid to the store might be a bit too far, but aside from that it’s just harmless teasing. Nothing more than a mild practical joke.
Kids can handle jokes. It’s important to learn to laugh at yourself and not take everything seriously. Otherwise you just end up being boring and stuck up.
And apparently many of those people end up on lemmy.
How is it too far? At worst the kid got a bit of exercise.
If the story’s actually true, it’s a harmless prank which doubles as some alone time for a quickie. His dad sounds slick as fuck.
It’s a very good motivator for critical thinking though.
We know that, through much study, it really isn’t. And the negatives outweigh the positives especially compared to other methods. It’s a trauma response more than anything at that point and if it does work they probably just used those skills to realize what an asshole the shamer was/is.
Good lord, of this is your definition of trauma, you’ve had an incredible life
I’m not here to play olympics with people who struggle to empathize with others. I’m sorry awful things have happened to you, that doesn’t give you any right to invalidate someone else’s pain.
My god guys it was terrible, my Dad sent me to the store for a bucket of steam, and the cashier laughed at me.
How was I supposed to know steam didn’t come in pre-packaged buckets? Nobody ever explained the particulars of steam packaging!
Literally nothing worse could ever happen to me. Now I’ll be in therapy for years.
Ok.
Jesus Christ not every god damn thing is a form of “trauma”
You and another person can experience the exact same things and one can be traumatized while the other is not. Telling your children lies can be traumatic no matter what the context is, because it teaches the kid not to believe what you say is true or to expect fuckery, a bit like the crying wolf thing.
Am I traumatizing my children telling them about Santa?
Personally I’m good with my children being suspicious of me. Don’t trust me blindly just because I’m an authority, trust me because you know me and my motivations.
Depending on what you are telling them, you could be. If they are afraid of Santa and you use him as a boogeyman, absolutely. If you teach your kids that he is always watching and judging, and can be used to exact punishment against them, there’s potential for it to cause trauma.
Teaching kids little myths for fun is generally harmless, but inventing things for your kids to be scared of, especially to exert psychological control over them, can do real harm. Actively lying to children because you think they’re stupid or gullible just earns you a shit reputation with your kids as they grow older and realize you don’t have any respect for them.
Or don’t trust you, because you told lies and destroyed the foundation of trust by doing so.
Love when everyone on the internet turns into a developmental psychologist because of some ribbing.
I’ve been bullied, beaten, hell I’ve watched people die. Those are traumatic.
Being asked to find a thing that doesn’t exist is not traumatic. It might be a little mean, but it does teach a lesson to use your head when you’re working on projects.
Are we doing pain olympics? Just because someone has it better or less immediately noticeable doesn’t mean it’s less valid. It might be less extreme but telling they don’t have trust issues because you saw someone die doesn’t help anyone.
I’m sorry you had to go through that, it sounds awful. Being regularly expected to be and treated like a gullible idiot by people who have power over you isn’t fun either.
Yeah I’m with you a 100%, but this very much isn’t appropriate behaviour towards a child imo. They may recover, or they may end up on Lemmy rationalising it 20 years later as “hazing” to the horror of onlookers.
JFC. How will the child ever recover from a joke they figured out in the middle! Poor kid is probably still in therapy 31 years later! Just their life completely ruined by realizing a can of paint can’t come in two different colors. I think the dad should be in jail to this day for such heartless abuse.
could you link some of these studies?
Someone hard facts would really help out in this comment-section
References at the bottom
Here’s an article
As an example, I could say two things:
The problem with shame, in my experience, has been that it might reinforce one very specific thing strongly but it also closes people off to learning anything else. If they learn the wrong thing, new information changes what’s right, or they simply don’t know something yet it’s hard for them to admit that they’re wrong/missing info.
Being shouted at by an authority figure for leaving your dishes out, for example, might make sure you can’t see a dish without remembering that horrible event so you put it away but the extra baggage that comes with is so not worth it, not even a little.
Maladaptive learning, being bullied into certain behaviors makes you worse at others.
You learn a task like washing dishes but also a behavior like focusing only on outward appearance or letting other considerations go to the wayside to complete visually obvious tasks - the result may be using short cuts like improper cleaning methods which result in sickness (cleaning only the visible dirt) but also could lead to a culture of hiding faults (why do our guns look so clean but misfire so often, why are these reports filled in neatly and completely but ikey information is often wrong or fabricated)
The army and others try moving away from it but of course it’s hard getting the changes through to people because when the army experts say ‘stop hazing it’s making us worse’ everyone that was hazed says ‘I was hazed and I’m the best possible version of myself!!!’ or ‘This is just liberal nonsense making us weak!’
100% for days, yea. None of it ever gets to the root cause and it all comes back eventually.
It feels like most of the world runs on it from thousands of years of reinforcing those behaviours. If the threat of death or jail time is what you got for communication, even just as the messenger, then why even bother?
It really isn’t. Think about a kid embarrassing their parent over some tech thing they don’t know.
*Taking from my other reply:
To understand something (think critically) you need to know the information. So it boils down to embarrassing someone for not knowing things. There is too much in life to know absolutely everything, thus my example on tech.
The parent is supposed to teach the child that information. Not mock and embarrass them for not already knowing it.
That’s an old dog though.
My grandmother can use her iPhone just fine, thanks. Old people just grew up still very deep in the “shame” style of teaching and so many are incredibly hesistant to learn knew things. They ‘re either proud they don’t know so it’s “cool” or laugh it off and say “haha old dog!”. Learning the new thing would require exposing themselves to a lot of information they don’t know and the struggle of learning it which all that trauma makes them afraid of.
It’s critical thinking. In life, it’s not always about knowing but about understanding.
It’s also about having thick skin and the ability to take a joke. Nobody is hurt, it is funny when you think about it, and it will encourage you to think about things in the future.
I do not need to know turn signals don’t require blinker fluid. Because it’s a fuckin light bulb.
The people in this comments section are acting like this is somehow traumatic. How fucking sheltered are you people?
To understand something (critically think) you need to know the information. So it boils down to embarrassing someone for not knowing things. There is too much in life to know absolutely everything, thus my example of the kid embarrassing the parent for some tech thing they don’t know.
The parent is supposed to teach the child that information. Not mock and embarrass them for not already knowing it.
People who think they know everything don’t ask questions. Asking questions is part of critical thinking.
Guess who think they know everything?
Who asks questions? The ones that feel safe asking them.
The ones that get set up and embarrassed? They learn to never ask anything because they’ll get laughed at.
These types of light hazing are actually trying to lower the stakes. The greybeards get to tell the stories of when they were young and dumb going on snipe hunts. we all make mistakes, developing the ability to laugh at YOURSELF is important. Its an inoculation against embarrassment. If someone is so prideful that they cant stand to ever be wrong, when the make a mistake that matters, they will try to hide it and that is when things go from bad to worse.
They will hide mistakes when mistakes are not accepted. When they will be punished or laughed at for making mistakes. So which parent will kids trust? The one that sets them up to be embarrassed? Or the one that is safe to approach?
There are plenty of mistakes in life, you really don’t need to set up your kids to make even more. All you’re teaching your kid is that they can’t trust you, to whatever degree.
Yeah. In this case you’d need to know that paint is a liquid, and comes in a can. Is it logical that paint is going to come in stripes? How would that be applied to a brush? How would that be applied to a wall?
If you take 2 seconds to think you realize this is a nonsensical request.
If you think everything in this world needs to be explained to you, you aren’t going to get very far. Also an important lesson to learn.
Learning to use a software interface, or the intricacies of how a thing works is not necessarily dependant on critical thinking. Understanding that a light bulb is not powered by blinker fluid, or that a liquid paint could not possibly be sold and applied to a wall in stripes is dependent on critical thinking.
Someone sure picked on this guy for not knowing something and now he’s rationalising it.
Just someone with life experience 🤷♂️
And honestly I’m just amazed at how thin skinned people are that they’re labeling a harmless joke as traumatizing. If you really need everything in life explained to you, expect to not get very far.
Aww cry more about it. I’m an LGBTQ refugee that fled Russia. Most of my life I’ve lived under the constant very present fear of deportation, death or at least homelessness, just to hold on another day. What’s worse is I fled to the UK, which looks more and more like Russia every day.
Very little bothers me personally and if anything I have developed an unhealthy habit of thriving on conflict, but that doesn’t prevent me from empathising with others and seeing how some things affect people differently.
It’s called going outside and touching grass and realising people have different contexts for things and that the world is very harsh and parents need not pile on that shit for a kid who may already have trust and confidence issues and viewing things systemically - using actual critical thinking - rather than simply humble bragging about how “tough” you are and how everyone else must be thin skinned and weak.
It’s a slippery slope to reactionary thinking of “good” and “bad” people and that makes it way worse than just macho posturing. I hope you can see my perspective but good day either way.
And nowhere in there did you touch on how sending a kid to the store for striped paint could somehow cause trauma, rather than teach a valuable lesson about gullibility, critical thinking, and being able to laugh at one’s self.
Not everything in this world is as serious as escaping a country to avoid punishment or death for who you are. Having the emotional intelligence to differentiate between the serious and light hearted is something a person should develop when they’re young or life will be much harder for them.
Because it was already stated in the thread: parents shouldn’t lie to their children to take advantage of their trust to teach them that trusting them leads to them set up for embarrassment and that they’re an idiot. Idk how this isn’t obvious but I guess beating kids was acceptable and reasonable too.
That’s absurd, what’s funny and light-hearted to one is usually at the expense of another (in this case), and sans reading their mind, you have no idea how they feel about your “just banter bro”, you’re just assuming this because you have no ability to imagine that anyone at any time might feel differently to you and you’re scared to confront that idea.
I’m not saying that harmless playful teasing is impossible or should be banned, but this doesn’t really come off as that, and the experiences ITT don’t either, especially with descriptions of such things as “hazing” which often also includes things that are without question just violent abuse/bullying.