We know that, through much study, it really isn’t. And the negatives outweigh the positives especially compared to other methods. It’s a trauma response more than anything at that point and if it does work they probably just used those skills to realize what an asshole the shamer was/is.
I’m not here to play olympics with people who struggle to empathize with others. I’m sorry awful things have happened to you, that doesn’t give you any right to invalidate someone else’s pain.
You and another person can experience the exact same things and one can be traumatized while the other is not.
Telling your children lies can be traumatic no matter what the context is, because it teaches the kid not to believe what you say is true or to expect fuckery, a bit like the crying wolf thing.
Am I traumatizing my children telling them about Santa?
Personally I’m good with my children being suspicious of me. Don’t trust me blindly just because I’m an authority, trust me because you know me and my motivations.
Am I traumatizing my children telling them about Santa?
Depending on what you are telling them, you could be. If they are afraid of Santa and you use him as a boogeyman, absolutely. If you teach your kids that he is always watching and judging, and can be used to exact punishment against them, there’s potential for it to cause trauma.
Teaching kids little myths for fun is generally harmless, but inventing things for your kids to be scared of, especially to exert psychological control over them, can do real harm. Actively lying to children because you think they’re stupid or gullible just earns you a shit reputation with your kids as they grow older and realize you don’t have any respect for them.
Don’t trust me blindly just because I’m an authority, trust me because you know me and my motivations.
Or don’t trust you, because you told lies and destroyed the foundation of trust by doing so.
Love when everyone on the internet turns into a developmental psychologist because of some ribbing.
I’ve been bullied, beaten, hell I’ve watched people die. Those are traumatic.
Being asked to find a thing that doesn’t exist is not traumatic. It might be a little mean, but it does teach a lesson to use your head when you’re working on projects.
Are we doing pain olympics? Just because someone has it better or less immediately noticeable doesn’t mean it’s less valid. It might be less extreme but telling they don’t have trust issues because you saw someone die doesn’t help anyone.
I’m sorry you had to go through that, it sounds awful. Being regularly expected to be and treated like a gullible idiot by people who have power over you isn’t fun either.
Yeah I’m with you a 100%, but this very much isn’t appropriate behaviour towards a child imo. They may recover, or they may end up on Lemmy rationalising it 20 years later as “hazing” to the horror of onlookers.
JFC. How will the child ever recover from a joke they figured out in the middle! Poor kid is probably still in therapy 31 years later! Just their life completely ruined by realizing a can of paint can’t come in two different colors. I think the dad should be in jail to this day for such heartless abuse.
That took me, like, a minute to google both of those answers. C’mon, dude.
Yea good point. I tried to search “does shaming actually teach” but needed to move to “does shaming someone…”. Reading the articles I think “humiliation” is more the keyword here.
The problem with shame, in my experience, has been that it might reinforce one very specific thing strongly but it also closes people off to learning anything else. If they learn the wrong thing, new information changes what’s right, or they simply don’t know something yet it’s hard for them to admit that they’re wrong/missing info.
Being shouted at by an authority figure for leaving your dishes out, for example, might make sure you can’t see a dish without remembering that horrible event so you put it away but the extra baggage that comes with is so not worth it, not even a little.
Maladaptive learning, being bullied into certain behaviors makes you worse at others.
You learn a task like washing dishes but also a behavior like focusing only on outward appearance or letting other considerations go to the wayside to complete visually obvious tasks - the result may be using short cuts like improper cleaning methods which result in sickness (cleaning only the visible dirt) but also could lead to a culture of hiding faults (why do our guns look so clean but misfire so often, why are these reports filled in neatly and completely but ikey information is often wrong or fabricated)
The army and others try moving away from it but of course it’s hard getting the changes through to people because when the army experts say ‘stop hazing it’s making us worse’ everyone that was hazed says ‘I was hazed and I’m the best possible version of myself!!!’ or ‘This is just liberal nonsense making us weak!’
100% for days, yea. None of it ever gets to the root cause and it all comes back eventually.
It feels like most of the world runs on it from thousands of years of reinforcing those behaviours. If the threat of death or jail time is what you got for communication, even just as the messenger, then why even bother?
We know that, through much study, it really isn’t. And the negatives outweigh the positives especially compared to other methods. It’s a trauma response more than anything at that point and if it does work they probably just used those skills to realize what an asshole the shamer was/is.
Good lord, of this is your definition of trauma, you’ve had an incredible life
I’m not here to play olympics with people who struggle to empathize with others. I’m sorry awful things have happened to you, that doesn’t give you any right to invalidate someone else’s pain.
My god guys it was terrible, my Dad sent me to the store for a bucket of steam, and the cashier laughed at me.
How was I supposed to know steam didn’t come in pre-packaged buckets? Nobody ever explained the particulars of steam packaging!
Literally nothing worse could ever happen to me. Now I’ll be in therapy for years.
Ok.
Jesus Christ not every god damn thing is a form of “trauma”
You and another person can experience the exact same things and one can be traumatized while the other is not. Telling your children lies can be traumatic no matter what the context is, because it teaches the kid not to believe what you say is true or to expect fuckery, a bit like the crying wolf thing.
Am I traumatizing my children telling them about Santa?
Personally I’m good with my children being suspicious of me. Don’t trust me blindly just because I’m an authority, trust me because you know me and my motivations.
Depending on what you are telling them, you could be. If they are afraid of Santa and you use him as a boogeyman, absolutely. If you teach your kids that he is always watching and judging, and can be used to exact punishment against them, there’s potential for it to cause trauma.
Teaching kids little myths for fun is generally harmless, but inventing things for your kids to be scared of, especially to exert psychological control over them, can do real harm. Actively lying to children because you think they’re stupid or gullible just earns you a shit reputation with your kids as they grow older and realize you don’t have any respect for them.
Or don’t trust you, because you told lies and destroyed the foundation of trust by doing so.
Love when everyone on the internet turns into a developmental psychologist because of some ribbing.
I’ve been bullied, beaten, hell I’ve watched people die. Those are traumatic.
Being asked to find a thing that doesn’t exist is not traumatic. It might be a little mean, but it does teach a lesson to use your head when you’re working on projects.
Are we doing pain olympics? Just because someone has it better or less immediately noticeable doesn’t mean it’s less valid. It might be less extreme but telling they don’t have trust issues because you saw someone die doesn’t help anyone.
I’m sorry you had to go through that, it sounds awful. Being regularly expected to be and treated like a gullible idiot by people who have power over you isn’t fun either.
Yeah I’m with you a 100%, but this very much isn’t appropriate behaviour towards a child imo. They may recover, or they may end up on Lemmy rationalising it 20 years later as “hazing” to the horror of onlookers.
JFC. How will the child ever recover from a joke they figured out in the middle! Poor kid is probably still in therapy 31 years later! Just their life completely ruined by realizing a can of paint can’t come in two different colors. I think the dad should be in jail to this day for such heartless abuse.
could you link some of these studies?
Someone hard facts would really help out in this comment-section
References at the bottom
Here’s an article
As an example, I could say two things:
The problem with shame, in my experience, has been that it might reinforce one very specific thing strongly but it also closes people off to learning anything else. If they learn the wrong thing, new information changes what’s right, or they simply don’t know something yet it’s hard for them to admit that they’re wrong/missing info.
Being shouted at by an authority figure for leaving your dishes out, for example, might make sure you can’t see a dish without remembering that horrible event so you put it away but the extra baggage that comes with is so not worth it, not even a little.
Maladaptive learning, being bullied into certain behaviors makes you worse at others.
You learn a task like washing dishes but also a behavior like focusing only on outward appearance or letting other considerations go to the wayside to complete visually obvious tasks - the result may be using short cuts like improper cleaning methods which result in sickness (cleaning only the visible dirt) but also could lead to a culture of hiding faults (why do our guns look so clean but misfire so often, why are these reports filled in neatly and completely but ikey information is often wrong or fabricated)
The army and others try moving away from it but of course it’s hard getting the changes through to people because when the army experts say ‘stop hazing it’s making us worse’ everyone that was hazed says ‘I was hazed and I’m the best possible version of myself!!!’ or ‘This is just liberal nonsense making us weak!’
100% for days, yea. None of it ever gets to the root cause and it all comes back eventually.
It feels like most of the world runs on it from thousands of years of reinforcing those behaviours. If the threat of death or jail time is what you got for communication, even just as the messenger, then why even bother?