Counterpoint: Single issue voters got Roe overturned
Wtf, who is upvoting this, this is alarming
I strongly suspect that most of the people on the left are also carrying all the signs on the right
And that the person writing the cartoon is planning move on to targeting the next-least-acceptable sign from the pile on the right, as soon as the one on the left is dealt with. This thing of slicing off segments of dissenting opinion to shut them down one at a time, in separation from their natural cohort of supporting allies, by driving wedges in between them, is fairly normal “advanced fascism from people who know how to get it done on the ground” tactics.
I don’t think it’s trying to slice off segments of dissenting opinion so much as highlighting the all or nothing nature of single issue voters.
Yeah. I guess I should have paid more attention to the title – applying it to a “single issue voter” (or, non-voter, I guess) who really is throwing all the stuff on the right in the garbage, in the (incorrect) belief that they’re helping the Palestinians, when in reality they’re just threatening to make things worse for literally everybody, makes sense.
I just don’t think that’s most of the people in the tents or carrying the signs. If they had constructed the cartoon to attack all the people on Lemmy who don’t want to vote because Biden personally killed all those Gazans and loves that the war is happening, or whatever they are claiming is happening, then that makes sense. But attacking the protestors themselves seems wrong.
Yeah I think
OPthe artist is doing kind of a visual strawman here, as also mentioned by this person.I don’t see evidence at all that any significant number of pro-Palestine individuals are single issue voters. Someone made a claim that 3% of democratic voters were single issue, but upon inquiry it turned out to be without source, and that the true number is less than 2% of all voters at the very absolute most.
As of now, I need more evidence to disprove my belief that this post is just an outrageously patronizing false generalization of the pro-Palestine movement.
You will have difficulty finding that evidence, I think
how do you mean? (/gen as in it would be hard to poll? or that the evidence doesn’t exist? sorry im dense sometimes)
Meaning that you likely can’t find that evidence, because the post is indeed an outrageously patronizing false generalization etc etc. 🙂
slay tyvm 💅
I agree, I am not the artist, but I posted this as a criticism of those who say they’ll vote third party.
The “most” is not the subject. It’s the few who are single topic voters.
Palestinian supporters make up a tiny, insignificant portion of single issue voters.
Something like 3% of democratic voters. Which would be a margin they could afford to lose if not for the electoral college.
Can I get the citation for this number? Thanks 😊
edit: their citation is non-convincing, so careful about upvoting this because it confirms your biases! scroll down under my comment to see more :)
I had heard it from this video, but she doesn’t cite her source. Gallup says war in the middle east is cited as the most important issue by 2% of voters.
ok boo a citation with no citation i don’t believe 🍅🍅🍅 thanks for your response tho
and i would guess that single issue voters for Palestine are a non-total subset of that two percent. so. yeah. without further evidence your comment didn’t really counter the top comment.
Anyone who operates such that they’re X until the issue of Israel comes up is a single issue partisan too, they’re just better at hiding it.
Wow, look at all those issues democrats won’t actually do anything about, they’ll just let republicans destroy those things so they can scream about them to get votes and continue to do nothing about them.
Oh, and democrats support genocide. No amount of whataboutism should disguise the fact that democrats are deep throating a genocidal apartheid ethnostate led by far-right war criminals.
Thank you for your well-researched and very-nuanced view, I hope you enjoy Donald “They’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.” Trump’s next term, 2024-20??
How do you think we got trump in the first place? The awfulness of the republican party did not begin with him and will not end with him, but the whole time democrats have insisted that we need a republican party. It’s a tag team play that ends in fascism regardless. If trump is beaten, the next bogeyman will be there for democrats to point at and claim “we just need to beat this one guy and then we’ll work on issues you care about, we swear” yet again.
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are… you talking about the elected officials, or the people who elect them?
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But they … DO something about this issue in-between elections. They are protesting and demanding the Biden administration to change their course. That is political action. What else are they supposed to do? Anything other than playing with the political power that’s left to them?
Everybody against those demanding a harder approach against Netanjahu’s genocidal campaign and threatening their votes is talking about how these people have to save democracy by voting Biden regardless of what he’s doing. Well, isn’t that part of a democracy?
Of course it’s part of a democracy. But the point everyone’s making is that it’s a very dumb thing to do because it’s likely to reduce your democratic power in the future.
Is the president not at fault at all when he doesn’t change his course? Also a majority of people seem to favor a ceasefire. Why not at least for campaign purposes actually enforce a ceasefire from Netanyahu?
Lemmy.world is pro genocide
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If the other guy being a fascist running on a platform of doing fascism isn’t enough for you to snap into line, you’re a fascist trying to feel moral about being a fascist.
Trump is denying the existence of the 13th and 19th amendments now and you’re actually still on about how politicians should have to “earn your vote?”
Tell me you’re white without telling me you’re white.
Tell me you’re white without telling me you’re white.
You know that upholding and extending this system that props up white supremacy and imperialism hurts POC around the world, right? If you’re willing to tacitly support a genocide because you can’t imagine doing anything other than fill in a bubble at the voting booth, those amendments are already as good as gone. If those amendments are essentially voided, do you plan on just standing by to let it happen? The shitty people who want power know you’re willing to sign off on heinous things if the alternative is worse. The marginalized will continue to fight, die, and become martyrs in history book while people like you would rather act out of fear (justified or not) and let the marginalized fight the same deadly status quo that keeps you comfortable and keeps them threatened.
Justified or not
Tell me you’re white without telling me you’re white.
See also the part where you compared being able to make a comparative harm judgement to “the right to not be owned by another person and the right to vote while woman might as well not exist anymore!”
Oh, so you didn’t catch that I was comparing your justified terror with republicans’ unjustified terror and how easily you can both be convinced to do terrible things.
The only thing I’ll add is that like 3 of those signs are controlled by the Supreme Court. Which became crazy specifically because people didn’t listen to everyone who said Donald Trump would be the worst president this country has ever had and would flip everything for himself. There’s no way outside of enlarging the Supreme Court, forcing them to put term limits on themselves, and potentially calling a new constitutional congress that could change those things. Having democrats in control of the three branches means nothing if it only happens for 2 years every 78 moon cycles and only when 5/8 planets are in alignment while 3 exists in off-axis parallel (or some weird astrology bullshit).
Having Democrats in control of the entire government means nothing when they are too concerned about being fair and playing nicely with Republicans to move their agenda forward.
If you don’t vote for Biden, in our system, you are tacitly supporting Trump. You’re a fool if you think that Trump will do better, by any measure. Please don’t be stupid.
If dems arent seriously campaining NOW about how to fix said system, then we will have to worry about the next election, and the next one.
I get fixing stuff is hard, hut Democrats would rather run on fear of the other guys than prevent the other guys from coming so close to power.
Can we stop being the repost home of r/politicalhumor shitty memes?
With how one-sided and not-thought-out-well this comic is, I can’t help but come with this point:
Does the lady liberty side not not concerned about the genocide they are supporting? I mean, if you assume the protesters focused against the genocide their own government has a great part in as not caring about anything while they are protesting this one, the most extreme human suffering, issue with a lot of burning passion it deserves and not caring about other things, you have to look at the other side and see they have no cards against this genocide.
Are multi-issue voters okay with funding genocide as long as their own rights are not infringed upon?
I’m deeply uncomfortable with the amount of people calling those wholly opposed to complicity in genocide as “single issue voters”. Sure, if genocide isn’t enough of a concern for you to oppose candidates that are complicit, then I guess you can call it “single issue”.
We’re talking genocide here, so I’m going to compare this to the most known genocide on the planet. Imagine if we knew about and could see the Holocaust occurring as it happened when it started, and FDR was funding the Reich including circumventing congress. Would you expect people to still vote for FDR, or would you expect people to oppose his candidacy? This caliber of rhetoric as well as this post has turned this leftist away from my plan to vote for Biden. Nice work folks. I’ll be voting for Cornel West and trying to keep the liberal trifecta in my state legislature this year.
I think it depends on how people/voters see the particular conflict. When Bush jr put a genocide on the Taliban, he had a lot of support. When Obama put one on ISIS, he had a lot of support. When Biden stopped US support for genocides in Yemen or Rwanda, voters didn’t really seem to care one way or another.
Lmao I’m sorry. You think the US committed genocide in Afghanistan and Syria? I must have missed the part where we carpet bombed them and withheld food.
US-backed forces succeed in making Raqqa 80 percent “uninhabitable”
Do you think they were sending in food trucks while they were bombing anyone trying to flee the city?
So now we’re pulling out the propaganda pieces. This would be the first time I’ve ever heard of the US bombing civilians excavating Raqqa. That’s just not corroborated anywhere. Even Amnesty International blames ISIS for holding the civilians there. They also put the civilian death toll at 1,500, which is a bloody miracle if there were 25,000 civilians being held hostage in the city.
The closest thing I could find is a relief web article saying the US didn’t help civilians evacuate. Which isn’t surprising because that’s not something that happens unless you’re the defending military. And then it’s usually actually the police and first responders anyways.
And I’m not surprised 80 percent of the city was destroyed. The only enemy left were the ISIS fighters that had mentally prepared themselves to die fighting. They weren’t going to let a single inch of ground go uncontested.
Edit to add - You still haven’t explained how that would be a genocide either though. There was a massive evacuation of civilians before the siege started. It’s a city of 500k-750k people.
I’ve linked you an article where you can learn about the US military ‘shooting every boat they saw crossing the river’. I can imagine you haven’t really heard about the details of the siege of Raqqa because, well, most people didn’t want to know. There’s a lot you can find though, same goes for sieges like Mosul or Fallujah: a final siege against a dug in enemy is never going to be pretty. White phosporous, thermobaric weapons, … War crimes. It’s either that or a lot more casualties for the attackers.
And regarding your final paragraph: Israel is encouraging massive evacuation of civilians as well. It’s not like they’re not letting anyone out of Rafah, it’s just that Egypt is not letting any refugees through (unless they pay) which results in them running around in circles. But rest assured that they would not have let Raqqa ‘of the hook’ if those civilians hadn’t left
Lmao no they aren’t. They designated a tiny area, and they don’t allow them to leave Gaza. Then they keep attacking into the area they forced them to move to. When you allow people to evacuate you do so to a non combat area.
And again. That’s not corroborated anywhere. Groups like Amnesty International have no problem coming after the US.
You’re also still not talking about the 95 percent of Raqqa that was evacuated. If that was a genocidal act they would not have been allowed to do so.
Can you cite a source that they’re not allowing them to leave Gaza?
When did Biden interfere with the Rwandan genocide, famously known for global inaction as the Hutus killed nearly 1 million Tutsis? Fuck off with this transparently bad faith talking point.
I’m so very sorry, of course I meant the Rwanda supported genocide in Eastern Congo. Can you explain on why you see this as ‘bad faith’?
it was a bad, wrong, evil thing that happened when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, but it was not a genocide. Same with how Obama handled drone strikes, well, everywhere in the region. I did not have the context that you unintentionally referenced the wrong events and it was the simplest point to address. I apologize for leveraging that accusation
I think it’s weird you’re downplaying these other genocides to defend taking a stronger position on Gaza
The Lancet estimates 2,5% of the Iraq population killed because of the US invasion between 2003-2006. They’re nearing 1,5% in the Gaza strip (but it’s slowing down). So I would think it’s weird to say it’s normal people are protesting the Gaza one so much while not really caring about the Iraq one, back in the day.
(Sorry I hope I’m somewhat exagerating but I also hope you see my point)
What you’re hoping nobody looks up is that the Lancet decided most deaths during that period were attributable to the invasion. Even gang and tribal violence. In the breakdowns they only say ~180,000 deaths were due to coalition actions. Which is in line with most other studies.
So that’s about 4,600 deaths a month. Altogether 0.6 percent of the population. Per month? 0.017%
Now let’s do Gaza. We hit 30,000 deaths in how many months? 5? Hell let’s give them 6. That’s 5,000 people a month in a county a tenth of Iraq’s size. Literally 2.3 million people. 1.3 percent of the population, double the coalition numbers from Iraq.
And that’s before the hospitals were too destroyed to keep counting deaths. Before we’ve tallied the death toll of Israel’s man made famine. Before we’ve dug the bodies out from under the rubble.
Don’t try to whataboutism this with bullshit numbers. It’s not a good argument even when the US actually did something. But trying to make it up too? You deserve to be laughed out of here.
So, if I look at your whataboutism argument
Why would you want to include every single death in Gaza and then coldly say 450.000 excess deaths (read that number again) in Iraq ‘don’t really count’?
The “if Trump wins” folks are angry at the implication that their vote is tacit support of genocide, but are fine with the implication that not voting for Biden is tacit support for Trump
If Trump wins, funding for Israel will increase, and even more Palestinians will die. So basically, you’re valuing your purity over human lives. Which is quite fascist, if you think about it.
“Opposing genocide is fascist” is certainly a take.
No, it’s fucking not. Cornel West opposes funding to Israel, supports a 2 state solution, and supports the same issues strawmanned by lady liberty. I value the end of a genocide as well as a socialist economy. If neither of the mainstream candidates will stop the genocide, I’m going to vote for the only candidate that wants to stop the genocide as well as handle the other issues I care about, in a way I’d align with. My barely tepid patience with Biden and supporters like you has run out.
The reality is that either Trump or Biden will win and if you’re not voting for either of them then, practically speaking, you might as well not vote at all. Third party candidates only ever get a tiny fraction of the overall vote and that’s not going to change this time.
I’m not casting a protest vote. I’m voting honestly because there is no way to strategically vote for the less genocidal candidate.
Your moral purity will kill more people. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Biden is the less genocide candidate. He’s been getting aid into Gaza, putting pressure on Israel, and directing funds towards humanitarian aid. All of that would cease immediately under trump.
Realistically, the best way to reduce genocide is through protest, donations, and activism. Electorally, the best option is to vote for Biden in the hopes we can keep trump from making thing unimaginably worse.
Also: vote in primaries
clearly my message went over your head. Either a candidate supports a genocide, or they don’t. Biden can wag his finger all he wants, he’s still complicit in genocide. The truth is that he’s handling Israel more conservatively than Ronald Fucking Reagan.
If you put things in such stark black and white terms then every president has supported genocide; they’ve been funding Israel since the beginning, and America itself is built on stolen, colonized, and occupied land.
In truth elections have consequences, and across the board things will be substantially worse under trump than Biden.
I would agree with this if not for the fact that you live in an absolute farce of a democracy where voting for a third party is nothing but a protest vote. Which seems fine to do in a state that will vote majority democrat anyway, but plain irresponsible in one that won’t.
Discouraging people from voting 3rd party only ever hurts Democrats and liberal candidates. We’re not just electing the president, which is where most of the 3rd parties appear, we’re voting for everything. Telling people in battleground states that voting for “their guy” is pointless will stop the liberal and progressive people that support Cornel and Stein from going to vote. Those people vote Democrat down-ballot.
I upvoted you for at least naming a potential candidate, rather than vaguely saying “someone else”.
And I’m deeply uncomfortable thinking that giving a chance to the candidate that thinks Hitler is a great guy AND the USA should do some of the same things as Nazi Germany while he’ll ALSO keep funding Nazi Germany, but even harder, is sane - let alone even a viable argument for those already opposed to the current choice already funding genocide.
Even the EU is learning how stupid Americans are and are making plans to not rely on it at all + make entry harder (next year you won’t be able to travel to just countries here for extended stay easily anymore by passport alone for example). And dumbasses like you are proving there’s a severe lack of critical thinking.
If these are the best candidates we can put up then maybe we deserve to lose our spot as the world’s last super power.
USA definitely deserved to lose that spot long ago, but NOT if it means China takes its place - don’t think y’all are so special as to be the only world super power. Pre - Xi maybe, but Xi has made it clear they want to go the “world emperor” path and China would also be a terrible Steward. At least the USA doesn’t kidnap foreign citizens / expats to make them disappear, or actively trying to annex loca countries anymore.
But we do know that Trump would do something similar (Khashoggi being a good example). The fact is the USA would still be a world leader because the existing economic and military connections it has wouldn’t disappear overnight - the only difference is the world would be a worse place.
Although Biden is obviously a terrible candidate, it’s just not even a contest that Trump is greatly, significantly worse. The Democrats are definitely seeing a “cry wolf” effect because although previous Republican candidates have indeed been terrible, none (aside from Bush Jr) have really threatened the power structure of the USA as much as Trump term 2 would.
If you still have doubts, read Project 2025. They are literally telling you they will turn the USA into a Christo-fascist autocracy.
Naw. We’d have the same headwinds China is facing. Yes support in developing countries would be buyable. However the EU, Canada, and Australia would move away from us. We’d feel that, right in the GDP. Our Asian allies would likely maintain a veneer of friendship to help ward off China but they would also be moving to not depend on us anymore.
People underestimate just how much power and money the US gets from it’s alliances. So while yes, China is there, they wouldn’t move to take our position. The world would just return to a mutli-polar system faster than it already is.
As to Trump vs Biden. I refer to my comment above. Genocide is a deal breaker no matter what party letter is next to your name.
Do you pay taxes?
I admire third party voters in the US, trying to bring down the 2 party system.
The thing is that unlike previous elections, this one could actually break down democracy.
Trump is going even more insane than previous elections, or even during his time in office. Calling himself “dictator for a day”. All so if he gets elected, he can just pardon himself and get rid of the huge amounts of criminal charges. He doesn’t care who he has to step on to achieve this.
All to the delight of Putin of course, it is widely known how deep Trump is in his pocket. He backs Trump so Trump can get the US to retreat from NATO, and destabilise Europe and the US so he can war further in all the Slavic countries that he considers USSR territories without issue.
That is also why we encounter so many Russia bots and shills. To make it seem the “genocide joe” issue is much bigger than it actually is.
I’d love for Biden to change his stance on sending Israel weapons, but not if it means increasing the chance of WW3.
And don’t kid yourself, WW3 will inch closer if Trump gets reelected.
The only way to bring down the two party system in the US is to eliminate first past the post voting.
I admire third party voters in the US, trying to bring down the 2 party system.
It is a pretty misinformed attempt, considering that voting for a third party will never bring down the US 2 party system. It will at best replace one of the 2 parties with another party. The 2 party system is baked into the US political system on account of its election laws, and it will take some major revisions of the US constitution to change that to something else.
That’s essentially what happened with the Whigs. The leadership decided that they weren’t going to decide one way or another on a strong stance for/against slavery, ignoring the pleading of their own constituents. So the anti slavery ex-Whigs made Lincoln’s Republican Party and the Whigs never recovered.
So not only is biden likely handing the election to trump, the moral outcry that is being ignored might kill the Democratic Party for good.
I don’t get this Schrödingers democracy thing here. The American people should save democracy by voting for Biden to stop Trump. But they can’t make demands against the pro-Israeli positions of Biden. You aren’t even in the real election phase, the election is in six months, and people can’t criticize or demand better action from their own elected president. Hell, I’ve seen these kinds of memes since the primaries, which are meaningless for Bidens candidacy except that you can send signals that you maybe have to change your course. But nothing has changed at all since then either, only empty words. How is this democratic then?
I’m not even saying that Biden has to do everything the most radical people on the pro-Palestine side demand. But Biden doesn’t even try to find a compromise. He could maybe leverage the power that the American government has over Israel to stop the bombing of Gaza. If he feels brave he could even demand the stop on more settlements.
It’s the Schrodingers democracy of the shrodingers “free” world we live in — Politics is pay to play, corporations are people and both can donate unlimited money, wealth equality is worse than the guilded age, but we totally have “democracy” bro. Also you should shut up and support a genocide because we’re fighting to prevent the fascists from taking power, which will surely lead to genocide… Only worse!
This is the kind of discourse you get with a 2 party system ruled by a corporatocracy masquarading as a democracy — the propagandized neoliberal drones are most of the comments you read. Ultimately vote for Biden, because the alternative is literal Christian fascist dictatorship, but give Biden and neoliberals hell; make them believe they’re gonna lose all the way to voting day.
give Biden and neoliberals hell; make them believe they’re gonna lose all the way to voting day
I agree with this, but people really need to stop qualifying every critique with their intent to vote for him anyway. Biden has already been saying he doesn’t believe his polling numbers are real (why liberals aren’t panicking about that indifference is beyond me), we really can’t be sending mixed signals here.
He risks losing if he doesn’t change course, full stop. He needs to know that risk is real.
No one I know who does serious work on Palestine is only working on that one issue, wasn’t doing anything before and won’t do anything after. Burnout is incredibly high among activist leaders right now. Cut us some slack please
The division on the left over Palestine has got to be the dumbest fucking shit I’ve ever seen. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.
It’s largely orchestrated. Fascists push it because it weakens the left. Leninists/Salinists/Maoists push it because they see it as accelerationist. Which to them is a good thing, because their ideology isn’t an improvement over capitalism. They know they can only convince others to adopt it by making things worse, not better. Much the same as capitalism and mercantilism does/did.
Super well put.
I’m sure if it wasn’t Palestine they would have picked some other hill to die on
Edited: Fat fingered my reply.
Seriously, Palestinian American here and I feel actually violated for them to be using my kin’s corpses as fetish porn for their narrative.
I have family who are Nakba victims that I haven’t been able to meet because they put everything into giving my grandfather the chance to escape, people who actually experienced the genocide first hand, and all I can see in these people wielding it as a cudgel to declare they won’t vote and nobody else should either is the same white cynical “leftism” that made Nader and Stein become the perfect catastrophes for American democracy.
Here is the single Palestinian cause, Badna N3aesh! We want to live! We want to live, both in the homeland, and everywhere else we may go, and that means you have no right to use our dead to let the ones who would kill us here too into power.
Badna N3aesh!!!
Kinda hard for Palestinians living in Palestine to actually live when biden hands over billions of dollars in weapons for israel to bomb them. Why are you more mad at people opposed to genocide than the ones who full-throatedly support the bombing of Palestinians?
This is some Matrix level missing the point.
The point literally couldn’t have come at you any more directly, and you still dodged around it and redirected, and doubled down on the pretense that somehow this person doesn’t care about their own dead relatives, and you need to instruct them on what’s important and what they need to understand and how to look at it, and why they should get on board with your politics, otherwise they don’t care about their own dying and suffering people.
I wrote one sentence pointing out how biden’s actions run directly counter to “we want to live” and then asked a question for clarification. You jumped in and twisted yourself into a pretzel to tell me how much I’ve missed the point without actually explaining how.
Sure. So it’s not really my place to have this whole conversation, but I already did get involved, and I’m happy to give my input.
The point is that whatever’s going on with Biden, Trump is objectively worse on every single metric, including but not limited to the safety of Arabs, Palestinians, and potential victims of the American military in general, at home and abroad.
Someone who cares about dead Palestinians could absolutely try to pressure Biden to stop sending weapons to the IDF, remove Netanyahu to the ICC, or whatever they want to do. Or they could point out that Biden is a monster for continuing the US’s war criminal support for Israel, and not immediately denouncing Israel the instant they started blocking food aid or bombing hospitals. Sure. All that makes sense. If any of that is what you’re doing, and it sounds like I’m trying to disagree with it, I am not. I actually originally came in this thread complaining about the OP cartoon, because I think most of the Palestine protestors are absolutely consistent and justified and the cartoon is grossly unfair as applied to them.
The very specific and very politically motivated construction from there to “that’s why I can’t support Biden, against Trump” or “that’s why I’m not voting” or anything like that, is endangering Palestinians in Palestine, Palestinians in America, Hispanics in their home countries and in the US, Americans in the US, and many many other people, to an absolutely horrifying level.
This person is, if I am understanding them correctly, objecting very specifically to the second one. They’re asking that people stop using the suffering of them and their family and friends to try to promote a particular political agenda which actually endangers them, increasing the chance of a genocide much much worse than what’s happening right now in Gaza, while pretending that it’s a Palestinian-friendly course of action and they’re doing it because they care about Palestinians. They’re pointing out that it’s a ghoulish and dangerous thing to point to their own dead relatives and then try to use them to excuse a politics which threatens to make a lot more corpses, while pretending that it’s on their behalf.
Is that a good explanation for how?
That’s fair, but I think there’s room for disagreement on how to pressure biden and if biden is actually even better for Palestinians at all. After all, biden has been the top supporter of israel for his entire career and is the top recipient of money from pro-israel donors by a huge margin:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
So far biden has given israel everything they’ve wanted or needed. There is the case where he withheld weapons (but not “defensive” weapons) because of Rafah, but by that point israel already has more than enough to level the entire area and biden is already back to moving things forward for future weapon shipments. Clearly biden doesn’t feel pressured enough to truly change his ways and I don’t know how guaranteeing your vote will add pressure. I’m not saying to vote for trump, I myself will be voting for biden, but I feel like we shouldn’t telegraph guaranteed votes to biden and the democrats no matter what they do. That’s just a recipe for them taking you for granted and letting them get away with whatever they want.
This. It’s almost like how a prominent Lemmy dev seems to believe his “struggle” is the same as a former Haitian slave. You want to talk about offensive appropriation to the point of self parody?
The idea that these privileged cynics use the corpses of heroes as a pedestal to push their agenda is absolutely disgusting.
It’s the same reason the chrisnats attached themselves to fetuses
Palestinian corpses can’t demand accountability or advocate their own interests which might not align with yours
Is that why biden loves sending billions of dollars of weapons to israel to create more Palestinian corpses?
@PhlubbaDubba
Fake account.
Zionism is Bidens ONLY reason for being.Palestinians know this.
https://theconversation.com/biden-says-the-u-s-would-have-to-invent-an-israel-if-it-didnt-exist-why-210172
@Zoboomafoo
The balkanization of the left has been a thing since before the Balkans themselves.
Just because someone protests an active genocide doesn’t mean they cannot also be upset about what else is wrong in the world.
Divisive cartoons like this, horse race politics, and the straw man argument of the single issue voter are all more dangerous than the youth finding their voice in political discussion.
I have probably one of the more controversial comments on this thread. I plan on voting for Biden, because harm reduction is the best I can realistically do in this federal election, and the other guy is very clearly worse. I encourage you to do the same just based on my own beliefs and opinions. I’m still openly critical of Biden because fuck sitting back and watching a genocide happen and saying “golly, at least he’s not Trump”. We can and should do better, and if team Biden doesn’t like it, maybe they should stop supporting genocide.
Maybe I’m just not up to date on the memo, but where did the idea that criticism isn’t allowed come from?
I can’t think of any president that I haven’t criticized. Obama pissed me off immediately forgetting about his promise to close Gitmo or stop warrantless surveillance.
I’m not seeing people saying not to criticize the administration.
What people are saying is holy fuck white supremacist Christian fascists are about to instill a monarch who will hurt many, many people if they can get away with it.
It’s a pretty clear and understandable message, and its unprecedented nature over the last few centuries kind of does warrant the volume with which it is attempted to be conveyed to people who say things like “because I don’t like what the administration is doing with issue x I might not vote or will vote 3rd party.”
Not liking what the administration is saying and saying you don’t like it is the very essence of the American experience. But throwing away your vote in this century’s equivalent to the election in 1930s Germany is not just tone deaf but an active middle finger to every minority that’s going to be persecuted under gold-plated Hitler, Palestinians included.
Personal experience on Lemmy and Mastodon. Even things as trivial as criticizing the Biden campaign’s strategy for stuff like hiring high level HRC16 folks and taking their advice as anything more than a joke or their strategy of just telling people who are feeling economic strain that they’re actually just confused because everything is great has earned me all kinds of ire and claims that I’m everything from a Russian troll to a Trump supporter. Really, it pains me to see the democrats sucking this hard; I see a lot of familiar themes from '16 developing and it’s making me nervous, including how other left voters are giving me shit for having the gall to question the wisdom of the campaign.
If we’re going to win, I think it’s not going to be by repeating the HRC16 strat of hand waving all criticism with “But Trump! The election is too important!” It didn’t work last time, and I don’t think it will this time. Besides that, it’s kind of disappointing to hear what effectively amounts to “I’d love to be critical of genocide, but the election is too important.” I kinda get where they’re coming from, but at this rate, there might not be anyone in Gaza left to save by the time November gets here. We’ll just have to kick rocks and go “golly, hopefully the next genocide doesn’t happen in an election year”.
I’m genuinely curious, would you vote for Hitler as a form of harm reduction? Obviously the genocide he did was bad, but say he was running against someone else who was also planning on committing a genocide.
The Nazis put money into infrastructure development, education (granted in this context it was also indoctrination, but there was genuine education being done too), expansion of welfare; better access to healthcare, public works programs, public health policies (though again, muddied with ideas about “racial purity”).
Imagine he was running against another pro-genocide antisemite, but who was against all the welfare/public spending mentioned above, and instead wanted to deregulate the economy, causing even more material harm than the Nazis.
Would you be telling people to go out and vote for Hitler as a form of harm reduction? Is there literally no line a person/party can cross that makes them not worthy of a vote; no line that makes the system illegitimate and participation in it/implicit endorsement problematic?
Look, what you’re trying to to get at here is that by voting for one party, you’re affirming support for their policies. Perhaps the best way to frame this is that this is a little like the trolley problem, in that I can choose to do nothing and let the trolley (the US political system, in this case) run over five people people (Trump stops any finger-wagging at Nettanyahu and probably encourages a similar attack on the West Bank, as well as starts rounding up and deporting anyone with any detectable melanin levels, as well as going all in on climate change on the side of CO2, as well as whatever the fuck else who knows), or I can become a participant and pull the lever to try to make the Trolley run over one person instead (Biden’s half ass finger wagging at Nettanyahu). Is pulling the lever problematic? Yes. But I think not pulling the lever is objectively worse.
Agreed on the trolley scenario, but that’s not exactly analogous. I’ll try to make an analogy that extrapolates the principle of our current scenario to illustrate what I’m getting at.
Imagine there are 3 candidates, two major parties and a third party. Both candidates in the major parties want to nuke the planet to establish an American world government. Our guy wants to nuke 6 billion people, their guy wants to nuke 7 billion people. Polls show that the third party candidate has the same chance of winning as polls in the 2024 U.S election show. The third party candidate is against dropping nukes on the planet to establish a global America.
Do you vote for the one who wants to nuke 6 billion people as a form of harm reduction? Or is there some line that a candidate/party can cross that makes voting third party the best option, despite how unlikely they’ll win?
I’ve voted third party before; it’s a fairly meaningless gesture at best, letting the trolley run over five people while still holding the lever at worst. Imo, you’re looking at the wrong thing here. In a FPTP election system, you’re always going to end up with a two-party duopoly with voters constantly trying to play harm reduction. If you want to have a meaningful impact at the ballot box- to have our third party votes actually count for something, it requires addressing the voting system that creates these conditions. Ranked Choice Voting/ STV movements are growing in the US; I plan on joining the one in California, I suggest you do the same thing.
I understand your sentiment, but I’m curious if you’ll actually commit to the principle you are espousing. Would you actually vote for a candidate that wants to bomb “only” 6 billion people over 7 billion, instead of “throwing away” your vote for someone who doesn’t want to nuke the planet?
I came back to say that your assertion about a two party system never arriving at a “too extreme” position is 100% correct. That’s why it needs to be done away with.
I think the issue is the people stating they won’t vote or the ones wanting to let Trump win to “just tear things down.” We don’t have near the numbers or popular will to tear things down and we didn’t have it last time Trump tore things apart. The damage he did is still being felt across the government and people just don’t understand how slowly change happens. It took the right 50 years and billions of dollars to get us here. It’s not going to change with one president or one political event.
“just tear things down”
I read that before, prolly from one of the gradbears or something, on how they didn’t mind Trump winning and going full authoritarian, because that was a chance to “hit the reset button”. Now, even with my best will I can read that as ‘revolution + new constitution’ but I cannot imagine how these people think that shit is going to go down in the USA today.
The way I see it. Biden is really choosing to die on this hill. It is irresponsible for him to support Israel when the stakes are this high.
Why is he not taking this seriously?
Why is he not taking this seriously?
He is. Support for Israel is policy, not politics. It’s not Biden supporting Israel… it’s the entire US political establishment that does.
You might just as well ask Biden to stop the US from being imperialist - no member of the US political establishment would ever do that. Period.
This is why you see liberals everywhere heeding the clarion call to pre-emptively start looking for people to blame when Biden hands over to the GOP (the “bad cop”) come November.
No I agree. The establishment is fucked. And If Biden were actually serious about beating Trump (because the stakes are rightfully so high), then he’d Buck the establishment.
Neoliberals would rather have a Dictator Trump than a Progressive Policy. Which is hilarious when the "progressive policy " is just a sign that says “no genocide”.
The division on the left over Palestine
There is no “division on the left” over Palestine.
There’s just people who’d set America as well as global stability on fire to prove a “point” and there’s people who wouldn’t
There’s just people
who’d set America as well as global stability on fire to prove a “point”that oppose genocide and there’s people who wouldn’t.Ftfy.
Your “fixing” just changed the meaning entirely to ignore the hard truth you don’t care about. And you pretend you’re being altruistic, just to be extra disgusting I guess
Don’t worry, single issue voters are very rare. They’re being loud right now on Lemmy, but I honestly don’t see them anywhere else. I’m pretty sure at least a third are paid actors too, but I can’t prove that.
Basically “everyone I disagree with is a paid shill”
So does that mean you were paid to make this post?
Anyone who thinks that foreign or business interests wouldn’t try to fan the flames of unrest in order to influence the election hasn’t paid any attention to previous elections.
It doesn’t mean that the reason for the unrest isn’t valid. They found a weakness and they’re going for it.
I am disgusted with Biden. Punishing his behavior at the general election will result in an even worse situation for the people of Palestine.
Are you prepared to engage in accelerationism?
If being called out on supporting genocide is such a national security risk then maybe biden should stop supporting genocide. Then you get the benefit of removing that as an issue and, you know, not supporting genocide.
That’s why I called it a weakness.
I wish I could get paid to post, but unfortunately, I signed a noncompete agreement with George Soros for a role as a paid actor in a false flag mass shooting so now I’m not allowed to be a paid actor in any other conspiracy theories. I’m just opposing genocide pro bono to keep my posting skills sharp so that I can apply once my contract expires.
FTC made noncompetes unenforceable, go find the job you truly love
So do I just send my resume to an embassy, or how does this work? I hope they don’t do in-person interviews, because I’m a Sasquatch and don’t want to expose my identity, but I do know some lizard people who might help me whip up a disguise if it comes to that. They mostly spend their time hanging around people with paranoid schizophrenia pretending to be normal people, so they’d probably be good references for this job, since it’s essentially the same thing.
My biggest fear is that it could be a coping mechanism for us.
The right likes to use every opportunity against us, and while I’ve seen many instances of them manipuating “cancel culture” on the left, there’s still a large number of people that are amnesiac about the Trump years, even if they’re themselves being manipulated by the right to follow such things.
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These kinds of meme threads are always interesting
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o7 Let’s see if we reach the More Comments Than Upvotes threshold
It’s there now.
The bot didn’t mention you so here’s my manual reminder.
Is 58.minutes close enough? I just got here and the number of comments in an hour is a good sign that it is a shitshow.
On to the fun!
They just keep getting better! You really love to see it.
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Surprise! It was the same handful of self-aggrandizing, self-righteous, idealistic short-sighted imbeciles that were driving all of that discussion the entire time.
Reminds me of the mass blocker and mass tagger wars
Someone on twitter created a tool that auto blocks anyone who followed at least 2 of five specific users, and found that it basically entirely shut down the gamer gaters and began spreading the tool to other users.
You can imagine that the gamergaters were less than pleased to see their harassment campaign being obstructed, and even less happy to find out how simply they could all be categorized and dismissed.
People totally underestimate how infuriated trolls get when they’re ignored. They want any attention, even negative. Just block them and move on, it works wonders.
