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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/16451158
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Try your hardest to create a new party the day after election day. If it fails, vote Democrat and start trying again the next day.
You have no idea how strongly and passionately I wish to see the day that you guys get a proper multi-party system. What you have right now is super fucked up.
https://ballotpedia.org/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States
EDIT: Also, yes, Trump and GOP are definitely trying to downright rig elections and that can’t be ignored, of course
The Democrats are bad, but the Republicans want you dead.
Do you really need it spelled out more than this ? VOTE for heaven’s sake.
Every time I say something like that a self proclaimed intellectual comes around and tells me how he couldn’t vote for Kamala because he is totally not a Russian bot and he had to stop Kamala from starting a war in the Middle East.
both sides are pretty bad, but you still gotta get on the bus
Right, but that’s also no excuse for running lesser monsters on the other side. We have every right to refuse all monsters no matter their severity.
There is no historical precedent for an electoral solution to massive wealth inequality. There is no historical precedent for an electoral solution to fascism. If you think voting alone is going to save our country, or the world, you have a problem.
They’ll try to shove you off the platform with constant negativity and trying to act like Trump is just a continuation of all the same. If you didn’t care before, why do you care now?
It’s not. It’s different.
I remember 2004, a friend had come back to our home town for new years, and in our fave local pub, he regaled us with stories of what it was like working with Trump. He told us about what a joke of a played narcissist he is, being primed by his psychopathic handlers for a puppet presidency. … It seemed absurd, implausible even, for about a decade.
I heard recently they were planning on having Charlie Kirk become president in the distant future too… until he grew sense and conscience. Imagine if each of their puppets attain consciousness and conscientiousness… and they have no puppets left to deceive us with… :D
Imagine if USA had democracy. Cleared up all the election rigging, the fixed proprietary voting machines, the lobbying, the gerrymandering, the electoral college, the voter suppression, the bought corporate media, etc, etc, etc. Imagine if the people in USA got to vote for what they want, not merely under duress to vote against who they don’t want.
Imagine if it were real…
Both parties have the identical end goal in mind. One is just slower at it.
So for fucks sake pick the one that’s slower at it so you have more time to do something about it. It’s not like voting locks you out of any other actions.
It’s no use asking these people to do any kind of direct action. They think abstaining once every four years will bring an end to capitalism. They’ll never attend a protest or vote in a primary, much less pick up a gun for the revolution.
Or, vote for something other than going to the bad place?
Someone offers you two pills, you don’t have to take either. You can make your own, and seek other options.
Yeah, but if you say “I don’t care, I have absolutely no preference”, then when kids get blown up in Iran it becomes your fault.
If you think voting Democrat would have prevented kids being blown up in Iran, you’re the fucking idiot here.
I think voting Democrat would have prevented kids being blown up in Iran, and it would have prevented ICE from having as many employees throwing immigrants in concentration camps, and I think it would have prevented the genocide of trans people that’s going to start next year. And don’t call Me an idiot, please.
Then there is no hope for you because you are deluded
Yeah. Don’t say that. Who’s advocating for that? Did you think I was advocating for that??
Well, there’s this thing called voting literacy, and the thing is, if your voting literacy is poor, you can say things you don’t intend to say. So yes, you did say “I don’t care, I have absolutely no preference”. And it’s your responsibility to learn enough mathematics to be able to say what you mean. I’m not gonna treat you like a baby and find the intended meaning in what you say, you have to grow up and say what you mean.
Slanderous misrepresentation. Did not say that.
So implausible, it seems you’re just trolling. Or maybe have crossed wires, replying to the wrong thing? … Or maybe have some psyop programs running that you truly believe what you say, with your perception perverted by some kind of groupthink and the false dichotomy fallacies the programming produces? Or maybe narcissistic deflecting and blame shifting and trying to save face rather than entertain an idea and concede the logic and learn from it? Or… maybe you’re on to something sound that you’ve just yet to effectively convey? But then, even if that’s so, we’re back to projecting, with the peculiarly expressed accusation of failing to communicate effectively (~ with mathematics?). And the condescending gaslighting hypocrisy doesn’t help your case much either.
If you can quote the relevant parts, I’m happy to hear out your explanation that refutes my claim I did not say that. Especially if you can do it without the inflamed ego toxicity. LOL.
But Americans aren’t doing anything about it except voting.
The ones who are going to do more are already doing more, and both-sidesing the ones who aren’t is just going to make them do even less. Just let them help with slowing the descent down a bit, that’s the most they’re going to do anyway. It buys time for the ones who are doing something to do something.
Or maybe the accelerationists are right, make the nail rusty enough, fast enough, get the frog realising it has to jump out or it’ll be boiled.
… if that’s not too much metaphor mixing.
Solution space may be elsewhere.
Maybe the accelerationists are right, but then maybe they aren’t and that’s a whole lot of suffering and collateral damage for nothing.
I hate this take, because it ignores the reality that this isn’t Europe and that you can’t even get sick in this country without health insurance with risking homelessness, let alone any massive coordinated action.
Like around here they’re always posting pictures of protests and you look at the people at the protests and it’s all retirees and college kids. Why? Because everyone else is at fucking work because if they’re not at work they miss a mortgage/rent payment and end up living in their car. The majority of US states have at will employment laws meaning they can and will fire you with no notice or even need to provide justification beyond the performative “this termination not due to you being a member of a legally protected class”.
Wage slaves are still slaves, and telling people today that their inaction means they’re complicit is no different then going back in time 200 years and telling the slaves on the plantations that they’re just as responsible for their bondage as the people that put them in chains. Fuck that nonsense.
more time to do something about it
Do what about it exactly?
How the fuck does voting for slow burn help?
Whatever you think needs to be done; absolutely anything ranging from peaceful protest to violent uprising. What exactly are you arguing, that it’s best to sit back and take it? That it’s better to put you face in the mouth of the leopard eating you rather than your arm so that at least you have a chance of fighting back? Even if one is an accelerationist (a profoundly naive position in my opinion, but that’s another discussion) willfully not voting is the intellectually cowardly option, justifying inaction rather than sticking to your ideals and actively voting for the option you believe will accelerate the most. The point is that voting is not a mutually exclusive action to take like so many people on Lemmy seem to act like it is.
Lol.
More “bOtH sIdEz” idiocy.
I’m just sad that more than zero people have upvoted that idiocy. Guess I’ll just take solace in the fact that more than twice as many people have downvoted it.
I’ve long been wary of anyone peddling an “only way”. Yet to find a claim of “only way” that’s not fallacious. Quite scary in this parroted psyop. “Be very afraid! Stay in your reactionary social-dominance totalitarian-psyche groupthink mass formation!” XD Gonna a be a beautiful beautiful thing, when people stop falling for it.
Y’know there are more than two sides right? And that they’re not even sides? … Beautiful beautiful thing when people snap out of the “lies so big that not even their inverse are true”.
“Keep doing the same thing over and over again, and each time, expect a different outcome. It is the smart intelligent sane thing to do.” – Einstein, probably
Wrong
The left and the right.
Of the Overton Window.
As a non US citizen I’ll say it again: you factually only have right.
The day most realize this will be the start of change.
So absolute reactionary and slightly less reactionary
Yup. In this case, the Overton Window’s Auth-Right on the political compass. Those on the left half of it call themselves “The Left”.
People deserve to vote for someone they actually support, not the least terrible option.
Stop blaming the voters.
They DO have the right to not vote, but they also DO have a civic duty to cast their votes. Voters are the ones who decide elections, and if the results are bad, it is up to voters to do better next time. I think this is less blaming, and more just people trying to hold the electorate accountable for their choices.
Voters are the ones who decide elections,
Are you sure about that?
Given the voter suppression & gerrymandering, the lobbying & corporate media consolidation, the electoral college & candidate selection process, the rigged proprietary voting machines & counting frauds, etc. etc. etc… [atop the First-Past-The-Post terror scam that coerces people to vote against who they most don’t want between the perceived most likely to win].
More to mend than just getting people to “vote correctly”.
If votes didn’t matter, then none of the efforts you mentioned to suppress and manipulate the voters would be necessary. Yet they’re happening anyway because people do ultimately hold the power, and that terrifies the rich and powerful who seek to control it.
Sure, people deserve better options. But the fucking point is that WHEN those options do NOT exist, voting for the WORSE option is fucking STUPID and supports fascism. When anyone convinces someone who wouldn’t vote for the less bad option not to vote, FASCISM WINS.
The hour is later than you think, since both [sides of the purple party] are bought by the same interests.
There are even more less bad options, than the 2nd worst most likely to win. Baa-aa-aa-aad is still bad.
When people keep voting for the LESS BAD option when those better options do NOT exist, better options WON’T appear as voting LESS BAD removes the INCENTIVE for it. Therefore voting for the LESS BAD option ensures the options will always remain FASCISM and something slightly LESS BAD - no better options. If one wants better options, keep voting LESS BAD is fucking STUPID.
Hope you feel proud of your principles when they disappear you into the camps too.
🫠
the democrats or the republicans?
I don’t know, fucking genius, you tell me who fucking set ICE out murdering US citizens and throwing them into fucking camps? Are you a fucking fascist and trying to play around here and confuse people, or are you willfully this fucking goddamn fucking stupid? Either way, fascists certainly adore your contribution to the conversation.
ICE, started in 2003… remember when the Democrat party was in power, both times, all three terms since then, when they got rid of ICE and… ohhhh wait.
Solution space lays elsewhere.
Ignorance must be fucking bliss.
I don’t know, fucking genius, you tell me
Are you a fucking fascist and trying to play around here and confuse people, or are you willfully this fucking goddamn fucking stupid? Either way, fascists certainly adore your contribution to the conversation.
lol, good on yer trying to throw it back like that, but you have to put a unique spin on it or something. I lost my temper at you, but I stand by the spirit of it, even though I wish I’d been able to keep my temper better.
When the general election hits, you will have two options (yea three or more). You can vote for the Republican, fascist candidate. Or you can vote for the Democratic candidate.
Anything other than - at that point - voting for the Dem is throwing your support behind fascists.
That is simple fact.
And that includes third parties.
Anything you want to try and do to change the system - because it fucking needs it - should be done before/outside of that process.
It’s really not fucking complicated.
I guess people would have to elect at least one more fascist gov’t then. Cause people don’t give a shit what the process is and won’t vote for turd sandwich in sufficient numbers no matter how much you insist they do. And I’m not doing that. I’m merely trying to present the view of the person who doesn’t buy this shit, didn’t vote Kamala and won’t vote Newsom no matter how hard you scold them.
And that’s part of the reason we have fascists in charge.
Can you spoil your ballot in protest?
Your logic only applies to local/state elections. It does not apply to presidential elections.
If you vote 3rd party in a presidential election, you’re a fool acknowleging you’re incapable of doing basic math and fine with the worst case scenario.
Explain how does it not work? People not voting for the shitty D candidate, causing them to lose to R doesn’t create an incentive for D to change course? Do I need to presrnt to you the last two years of intense D soul searching after Kamala lost?
fine with the worst case scenario.
Obvioisly that’s part of the calculus. Most who question the lesser evil approach understand this. However you might not understand that no matter how hard you call people fools, that doesn’t change the picture for people who’ve given up on voting for Turd Sandwich. Might even be achieving the opposite. A lot of people are done with the Turd Sandwich status quo and are either staying home or voting Giant Douche. Sounds like you have to give them something better to vote for if you don’t want more Giant Douche.
People not voting for the shitty D candidate, causing them to lose to R
Congrats, you just elected fascists.
I guess you’ll have to do something about it then.
I am. I’m trying to teach people how not to support fascists.
Did you even read the meme? Lol
It literally is not blaming voters. It’s blaming morons like you who don’t vote and then worse, discourage others from voting. Voting is the easiest form of civil engagement and if you can’t even do that then you’re a troglodyte and you don’t deserve an opinion.
That being said, if you actually have a shit about changing things, which you obviously don’t, you should vote AND organize your neighborhood AND support progressive candidates AND do anything at all.
I’m not even in the States, and I do vote in my own country’s elections.
I’m just sick of seeing people blame the voting public for not voting the way they wanted. You’ve failed to convince them, this is on you.
Why are you expending so much effort to get fascists elected? If you’re not going to participate then just shut the fuck up. At least stay silent instead of actively helping fascism take more power. Unless of course, your job is to discourage civil activism at the behest of said fascists.
Whether you’re an actual person or a bot doesn’t really matter. You’re both doing the same work and I really hate those who enable fascism. So if you’re a real person then kindly go fuck yourself. If you’re a bot then doubly so.
just shut the fuck up
You’re not wrong, but the time to fix that is at the primary and not the general.
And yes, I’m aware the DNC has their thumb on the scale when it comes to the Democratic primary. So that means vote in your local elections too, so that there are actually progressive candidates to choose from instead of corporate-owned do-nothings.
People deserve to vote for someone they actually support, not the least terrible option.
Not if you live in reality.
Stop blaming the voters.
I’ll keep blaming voters who keep voting 3rd party in presidential elections thinking a third party can win when the last most popular 3rd party candidate in the 2024 election only got 0.5% of the total votes cast.
I’ll keep blaming voters that can’t do simple math and make the most intelligent decision based on the reality they live in.
I’m not going to stop you, I’m not your dad.
Well said.
Or as I take it a little further (s/someone/what/ hinting at more direct democracy too):
Imagine getting to vote for what you want, not against who you don’t want.
But I really like how you put it too.
No. Just no. The truth is still the truth, and saying the truth doesn’t mean you are trying to do anything but say the truth. Both sides should be banned from holding political office or any involvement in the political process. Clean flush.
YEah, that’s fine. But what do you do until that happens, hmm? By not voting for the party that at a minimum causes LESS harm, you are supporting fascism.
If saying “the truth” means fewer people vote against the Republicans, the Republicans win and continue to fuck our democracy. All because people like you care more about the “truth” than strategically voting the best options on the ground at any given time.
That’s WHY the fascists push “both sides” as hard as they do. It’s one of the things keeping them in power.
Never said I don’t vote against the republicans. You just highlighted the problem. Posts like this are meant to villianize people who acknowledge that both sides are evil. It litterally makes a divide between those who vote D, and those who vote D but admit they are evil too. That drives more people to not vote D.
Bull fucking shit.
Posts like this encourage people not to vote, which helps fascists win.
There’s nothing stopping anyone from working on change at ANY fucking time, but NOT voting Dem in the general election is NOT the fucking time to do it.
:Shurg: the news everyday encourages people not to vote with how little the dems do and how much they give in. The post OP was referencing have negligible impact.
And who owns the media? You have to ask yourself why the media reports what they report.
I know who owns them, and I know why they report what they report. That wasn’t the point. The point was that thier impact is orders of magnitude more then the few people who the posts OP referred to might sway. So the real impact of ops post is to split up people who support the same overall goals, not to stop people from being convinced not to vote.
people voting is how we got every president but gw bush.
they were all terrible.
no more presidents.
no more presidents.
Then change the system. Eliminate voting or whatever.
But meanwhile, VOTE FOR THE NOT-FASCIST OPTION. :P
you’re really confusing. a minute ago I thought you wanted me to vote for the democrats
Cute.
options
What’s your plan to achieve that other than posting here?
I vote in the primaries and support the most progressive, and least polotician like people I can find on the ballot. My state is solid blue, so I don’t have to worry about a republican winning anything at the federal level.
And then when you wake up from the dream world where both parties a completely rebuilt, you need to vote for your actual choices.
If the Republicans never have a chance of winning again, it becomes much easier for the actual progressives to differentiate themselves from the more centrist Democrats.
Never said anything contrary to what you are saying. I just can’t stand posts like this BS that claim all people who say both sides are bad are really saying blah blah. Both sides are bad. That is just a fact. And I won’t call either of them good. That doesn’t mean anything more than it clearly says.
To only have two sides is the problem.
It’s going to be an even bigger problem when it drops down to only having one side.
The Red Army is not coming to the rescue.
Only two sides stand a chance of winning a presidential election. No amount of whining about the 2-party system changes that.
Stop whining everybody. Act like you are able to change something. I know you can do it!
Sure, but as far as what we can control right now, let’s elect some fucking Democrats please
How much longer will this be a cookie cutter answer?
Until Americans learn how to vote for 3rd parties in local/state elections and get more than ZERO 3rd party representatives in Congress.
Let’s get Democrats controlling all three branches of government for more than 30 seconds to start.
And by “controlling” we mean “supermajority” thanks to the veto and filibuster.
And will things magically be better? Well, better, yes, good, no. First, it takes a lot of time to undo the harm fascists have done. And second, our oligarchs would still be in control, pushing for their needs above ours.
So we need to… solve… our oligarch problem AND win a supermajority AND then We the People need to push that Overton window back to the left, forcing our politicians to serve our needs.
…which is why I say we’re pretty fucked. But that’s what needs to happen, anyway.
Defy the dire prognosis, and head mendwards anyway.
Until there are enough grassroots progressive candidates to take over the democratic party the same way the tea party movement took over the republican party, and finally some progressive initiatives can pass into law, such as eliminating FPTP.
Please don’t take the “just vote democrats into office” answer to mean “sit tight and do nothing but vote” when voting is really the bare minimum activism you should be doing to preserve a democratic system.
I just wonder how patient US voters are, for the changes you project.
Does it matter? Most voters have no attention span. They aren’t revolutionaries. They aren’t going to take to the streets no matter how bad things get. Stop trying to change people who aren’t going to change when you lack the influence to change them in the first place, and focus on trying to leverage what you’ve got as productively as you can.
Build your cadres, make the change you can, and make lemonade from the lemons you’ve got.
Yeah, if waiting for something before contributing to mends, the crooks will prevent that something to keep you passively complicit.
Mendwards now!
Yeah, we need more John Fettermans and Joe Manchins and Krysten Cinemenmas.
Or… any of many other options, than just more corruptible agents and assets.
I often imagine what it may be like with, not just adjustments to re-presentative democracy (like ranked choice voting, proportionate representation, etc), but even beyond direct democracy, even beyond liquid democracy, all the way to (what I call) config-democracy…
“Config-Democracy”, where we each are free to input our say as elaborate (or as terse) as we want, updated when we want, as direct or deferring as we want. Where our “vote” is like a config file, not merely a single mark on a corrupted multiple choice. … unless you want to vote like that still in config-democracy. You’re free to. But I imagine everybody wants more say than that.
All kinds of facilitators can be developed for such. Heck, we even already have the likes of the political compass test, and the world’s shortest political quiz, that for decades have already offered us better means to present our political philosophies. … Funny how the crooks have not sought to implement that eh? Given how the spray of popular results show they’d be voted out of office the first day any such were implemented. … Imagine that, huh? Real democracy, real organisation by the people, for the people.
:)
We can still mend this.
Right. So the alternative to those is more Marco Rubios, Mike Johnsons, MTG, etc etc etc etc. All of whom are much worse.
We need better people running for office that get financial support from the people, but when it comes down to the general election, whatever addhats made it that far, the Democrat is going to be BY FAR the better pick 99.9% of the time. And if the Republican is truly better, sure, vote for them, but remember that at the party level, Republicans are the ones bringing us fascism.
The point - the entire fucking point - is people saying “Don’t vote for the Fetterman/Manchin/etc in the general election” help the fascists win. Of course it’s shitty options, but you want to pick the LESS. FUCKING. SHITTY. OPTIONS.
Especially when they’re not even different sides.
It’s one of many parts of the problem.
I refuse to stop shit talking democrats, if they weren’t absolutely complicit warmongers we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.
Nobody is saying not to shit talking them, people are saying that nuance is needed. We need to push for better representatives. BUT. When the general election happens, we need to vote Democrat because REPUBLICANS ARE FUCKING FASCISTS. Because while both sides suck, both sides do not suck equally. So shit talk your Democrats, as long as you shit talk your Republicans even more. Or do they get a pass because you write them off as evil?
Does your shit talking drive people away from voting for Democrats when the vote is Dem vs Repub? If so, you support fascism. Plain and simple.
Put your energy into change where it matters: Primaries, other offices, pushing society back to the left away from fascism. Make sure you’re not helping the fascists win.
The OP meme is not calling for nuance, it’s saying that if you’re shittalking democrats you’re helping Republicans win.
My democrat state rep sucks and is in practice a thinly-veiled Republican coasting on incumbency and people not investigating beyond the ‘D’
My federal rep (D) has been actively complicit in perpetuating the genocide in Palestine and allowing Trump to walk all over Venezuela. I actually put in a lot of effort with antiwar groups to try to sway them in the past. What I learned is that when it comes to war and empire if they want to climb the ranks in DC they’re going to tow the line.
Open Republicans are obviously worse, but theyre also a non factor in my state, they just run for ‘nonpartisan’ seats or pose as democrats. This is also why i chaff at vote-bluers, they will act like challenging an incumbent ‘democrat’ who sucks is somehow helping Republicans
How so?
What do you mean how so?
The democrats are prolific warmongers, they just think they’re smarter about it than Republicans.
Oh I’m not arguing that, I’m just asking how that would have kept us out of this mess.
If they weren’t prolific warmongers and instead did things that were actually popular at home then they would probably be seen as more trustworthy and not lost to Trump repeatedly, idk how more to spell it out for you
Maybe, but then they would’ve been buried by AIPAC money, as we’ve repeatedly seen. They’ve done plenty of positive things at home, or at least tried to, but all that gets ignored. Sure, I’d love to see a positive change, but we have to acknowledge the reality of the political landscape, and opposing Israel is political suicide with current campaign finance influences.
They didn’t oppose Israel at all and they ate complete shit anyways.
they may have ‘tried’ to do positive things at home, but they also spent billions arming a genocide which triggered a blockade of the red sea and disrupted supply chains. Failing to negotiate a settlement with russia didn’t do energy markets any favors, the blowback from sanctions and energy prices absolutely contributed to inflation that people felt, and then blamed on democrats. ‘brandonflation’
Like you can make excuses about AIPAC or whatever, but the people who felt the consequences of these wars voted accordingly. It sucks that there was no left candidate to vote for and that resulted in republicans winning. However that’s also the democrats fault for not running a real primary and ignoring all the people voting uncommitted.
There were plenty of warnings, they were just ignored.
Sure, but Democratic voters are not democratic leadership. If you have a problem with Democratic leadership, tell it to them. Voters don’t benefit from Democrats losing to Republicans.
Beyond the more general point, a concrete example - if the Biden admin didn’t supply unlimited bombs to Israel, they would not have lost to Trump. There’s enough numbers to support this claim.
Now the question is which is easier, convincing millions of people to vote for “anyone not a republican” or convincing a candidate to be more than “not republican”
Why not both?
Because that is not the reality of what is currently going on.
Perhaps we could focus on promoting the dangers that fascism is currently presenting to the United States.
Yeah, it appears that Americans aren’t getting the education they need regarding the horrors of fascism. Apparently the largest war in history happening less than a century ago due to fascism isn’t enough. A war that was very well documented, including photographic and video evidence.
You mean Republican, right?
;)
Same as Democrats are not democratic, Republicans are not republican. ;)
Hard work undoing the newspeek this deep into the Orwellian hole.
Past, you should probably read that book you’re quoting.
Newspeak was the idea that removing words from people’s vocabulary would remove the thoughts from their head, therefore becoming an avenue for control. Despite the Sapir-Worf hypothesis being bunked, I don’t think it was at the time.
What words were they removing from your vocabulary, how do you believe it is controling you? Modern examples would be something like ‘Unalive’ I guess, but not really. Sponsors trying to get you stop using the word dead, and talking about death. But, unalive is a work around, not enforced, so not really newspeak.
it doesn’t really matter - regardless of how difficult it is, we should be doing both
No the real question is: which is easier, bitching online or running for office. I wish 1 in a million people who whinge about lack of candidates would actually go run for something. I’ll vote for you.
Hey, primaries are around now. It’s a great time for that!
Participate in primaries. THIS is the election you want for that.
Depends on where you are. My state doesn’t have primaries till August and by then it’s basically already decided.
Same here, most primary candidate drop out before I even get my mail in ballot. Also there hasnt been a fair primary in 12 years so like so for over a decade party direction has been at the mercy of quid pro quo backroom deals, or straight up just appointing a candidate. Why would the next one suddenly be a fair representation of the will of voters?
What DNC did to Bernie caused Trump.
It depends. What it means to be “more than “not Republican”” is different for different people. Some will never be satisfied, and others are just plain wolves in sheep’s clothing trying to drive down Democratic turnout so the fascists can hold power.
While yes, those groups certainly exist, the majority of people just truly need help from someone who actually cares to help them, and not someone who says they do, but abandons the idea when it turns out to be difficult to supply that help because it never meant that much to them in the first place, if it was ever anything more than talk to begin with.
Pointing out the tiny problematic groups without even mentioning the much larger legitimate group reminds me of people who complain about welfare because of the tiny group of people that exploit it, completely ignoring the huge amount of people that just need help.
Every time the welfare thing comes up I respond, so what? Who fucking cares if some tiny minority of people abuse the system if it means the people who really need it have easier access, or access at all? No one abusing welfare is so rich you would argue they don’t need help anyway, unless there’s some sort of corruption going on. Big companies take way more in handouts from the government than people on welfare. Why can’t the big powerful successful corporations pull themselves up by their bootstraps?
And scolding people for criticizing Democrats as “both-siders” means you like your fascism with less overt racism.
Uh, if 95% of the voters are voting fascism one way or the other, it’s a start. I think you wildly underestimate electoral inertia. Don’t get me wrong, I wish you were right, but the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Unless you’ve got an actionable plan to sway, like, 70 million people, maybe start with nudging the scales from fascism full-flavor to fascism lite and go from there.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Polls show progressive ideas are incredibly popular. Liberal Democratic politicians aren’t.
The road to progress isn’t through Gavin Newsom.
Then vote in the primaries, absolutely do that and encourage everyone you know to do the same. And if a shitlib wins the primary, vote damage reduction.
Shitlib > Overt Fascism
Here’s hoping distilling it down to that can help some people understand.
Mamdani.
He won the primary (in a Democratic stronghold). Awesome, let’s keep that up where we can. Vote in your primaries.
But if your district’s Mamdani is a long shot third party, maybe make sure the shitlib beats the fascist until that long shot has widespread support.
Did you miss how the liberal Democrats’ knives came out after a progressive won the primary?
They ran Andrew “Sex Crimes” Cuomo as a splitter.
So tell me again how voting in the primary is the only permissable way to get progress.
Again, progressive policies are more popular than liberal Democrats. The idea of centralism and incrementalism is just Lucy with the football. There are no centrist voters. It’s a lie liberal Democrats tell so they can do stealth fascism.
So tell me again how voting in the primary is the only permissable way to get progress.
Because the most popular 3rd party candidate in the 2024 presidential election only got 0.5% of the total votes cast. And there are ZERO 3rd party members in Congress.
It’s basic math.
The only path forward is reforming the Democrat party by primarying the bad actors.
Or violent revolution (not happening).
Because it still worked? I didn’t say anything about permissible, I’m talking about successful. You’re allowed to do whatever, you just can’t be surprised when certain actions are ineffective. You’re allowed to build a shrine in your closet and try to voodoo progressives into office, but that’s not going to accomplish much.
Both progress fascism. And historically both sides made some major strides towards it allowing for today’s gov to exist. It’s def a joint venture. But we do get to see increasingly more what’s happening behind the curtain (that’s usually when it’s too late tho).
I think you missed my point.
Even if we DO vote, we still get Republicans. They just wear a different color and use a different letter.
BOFE SIDEZ YOU SAY?!!?!?!?!
Goddamn. You may as well be a Russian operative.
If you can’t see the differences, put on some fucking glasses. It’s not exactly subtle.
The differences are
- Wars vs wars
- Gaza genocide vs Gaza genocide
- Robber baron capitalism versus robber baron capitalism
- Tax cuts for the rich versus tax cuts for the rich
- Deregulation of media versus deregulation of media
- Transphobia versus transphobia (seriously, do you know anything about Newsom other than funny memes?)
- Fundamentalism versus fundamentalism
- Inflation versus inflation
- Increased police funding versus increased police funding
- Shuttling military surplus equipment to police versus, yeah
- Mass incarceration versus mass incarceration
- Privatization versus privatization
- Out of control healthcare costs versus out of control healthcare costs
- No universal healthcare versus no universal healthcare
Oh, sorry, there is one; one of them hates rainbows and the other pretends to like them. My bad
That’s just what a Republican would say to potential Democratic voters 🤔
No, that’s what a leftist would say who recognizes that there can be no progress for the working class by continuing to enable the capitalist elite.
Yes, and we need a revolution if we can’t effect change from within the current system.
BUT THE FUCKING POINT is that WHILE THE SYSTEM STILL EXISTS, NOT SUPPORTING THE DEMS ENDS UP SUPPORTING FASCISM.
WHILE THE SYSTEM STILL EXISTS, NOT SUPPORTING THE DEMS ENDS UP SUPPORTING FASCISM.
I honestly don’t know what to do to get people to grasp this. I don’t know if I’m mostly butting my head against young people’s ideology. When we’re young we’re less likely to make any concessions or grasp how imperfect the reality we live in is. My fear is that I’m trying to get this basic concept through to people my age. If that’s true, then this country is in deep, deep shit. Because this is not a hard concept to understand, especially if you’ve made it past that early adulthood no concessions it has to be just and fair phase.
Like, this is the reality you live in. These are your options on a federal scale. One is very clearly fascist, the other is not, despite a bunch of uninformed people in this very thread saying that both sides are fascist. Clearly these people have no idea what fascism is.
Do not underestimate the chemical lobotomies, the “crystallising public opinion” psyops, the irrational groupthinks. Still, speaking out, exposing them to other ways, as futile as it long seems, is necessary for breaking the spell. Much to mend. Beware certainty, especially in ourselves, lest we unwittingly succumb similarly, depriving ourselves nuance, pushed to polarised reductions, peddling metrics to bolster our certainty of our own one true way, denying ourselves access to multiple perspectives, deluding ourselves into naive realism, believing what we believe is reality, and not just a favoured perspective, one of many potential more.
Supporting either is a support of fascism, as the Democrats, being a neoliberalist party, fundamentally enable fascism. This bullshit didn’t just spring up overnight, it was the result of generations of political fuckery by the owning class to slowly and methodically consolidate power while keeping the working class pacified with bread and circuses.
Your simple, fallacy logic doesn’t fly. Real change doesn’t come from a ballot box.
That is exactly the arguments a Republican shill would use.
Even if both options are fascist, one of them is clearly less fascist. And unless you make sure a third option exist, not voting on the less fascist option will give you the more fascist option.
Lol if you think that’s the argument of Republicans then you are desperately unread in leftist theory.
We don’t play that bs, reactionary “lesser evil” bullshit.
Or you are desperately unread in Republican theory. The post we are all commenting on is about you.
Having to rely on the lesser evil is a result of a 2-party system, which is a result in a winner-takes-all system.
If you want to break the system, go right ahead. But until then, your mentality is what caused Republicans to win and the US to slide even faster into fascism. This is the reality. Not whatever utopian view you have of the world.
So congratulations, you played yourself.
Unless you don’t live in the US of course, which looks to be more likely every comment you make.
Even if both options are fascist
That’s the thing. The person you’re responding to is trying to draw you into an argument in which you acknowledge Democrats are also fascists. They are not. Not by the very definition of the word.
You don’t need to point out that a less fascist party is better than a really fascist party, which is true, because one of the parties in question is not fascist. Period.
That’s the thing. The person you’re responding to is trying to draw you into an argument in which you acknowledge Democrats are also fascists. They are not. Not by the very definition of the word.
The? There are several flying around.
Which definition? e.g.:
- Government and corporate power acting as one?
- Binding people together in groupthink?
- Military industrial complex rule?
- “Neo-Liberalism” (the Orwellian euphemistic synonym, being neither new nor liberal… same old fascist)?
- Centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, with a policy of belligerent nationalism, racism and jingoism
- Oppressive, dictatorial control?
- Top-down government / anti-democractic government?
- Auth-Right (e.g. as per the political compass)?
- Corporatism (the synonym preferred by Musolini)?
- Oligarchy (exacerbated with Ed Bernays style “crystallising public opinion” and kakistarchy on its plutarchy/kleptarchy come attercoparchy) / “Big Baron”?
- Not the Democrat party, the Republican party?
…
One of these is not like the others. ;)
Until that last one, I was struggling for a definition that didn’t have the Democrat party also qualify.
This whole thing has me think of Pacific’s song, “Break your social system”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNCrYT--VKk
Supporting either is a support of fascism
Fascism - a far-right, authoritarian ultranationalist political ideology that emerged in early 20th-century Europe, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and subordination of individual interests to the state. It promotes national rebirth, militarism, and often racial superiority.
Can you explain to me how you think the Democrat party is fascist? Because in this definition of fascism, the only one I can stretch to make work is “militarism”, but then A LOT of countries would be falling under the fascist label.
Republicans, on the other hand, check all of these boxes.
The Democrat party is flawed and weak. They are not fascist. Learn to use words properly based on their definitions.
A LOT of countries would be falling under the fascist label.
Yes. They are.
Less fascist is better than more fascist, but it’s still fascist. Just some different aesthetics to keep the placatium palatable. Still corporatist fascist. Still fascist.
Check out the current voter suppression, and the [oft Democrat [and Republican] aligned [but not 3rd party/green/libertarian/independent aligned nor neutral]] corporate media “crystallising public opinion”, and other parallels to the defining historic examples of fascism, in how they suppress opposition to preserve the dictatorial power and subordination of individual interests to the state, and how it promotes national rebirth (“CHANGE” as the perpetual political slogan, anyone?) to carry on with its “militarism” (jingoist hegemony and national supremacist global domination).
… Or keep complicitly hiding what’s going on peddling placatium, and just keep repeating “USA Number 1” and “Land of the free” harder along with some “lesser” evil hopium.
1st ammendment is there to assure that freedom.
The freedom to hold dear to the whataboutisms of comfort in pointing at terrifying worse to keep terrifyingly convinced ones own groupthink is the right one, is the same freedom to strive to attain the mark of an educated mind, able to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting nor rejecting it.
Supporting and enabling fascism is still fascism.
… Oh but it’s less fascism. They said the one true way we’re to think is like this and it’s nicer than the one true way the other side have. … Stay divided and conquered, while ever falling for the one true way of a groupthink, and the crooks will take everything from you, while you still are yet to stop falling for it.
Sublimating out of it is impossible?
No.
It’s necessary.
The most you can say about democrats is that they passively object to fascist ideology, but they never do more than throw procedural obstructions to fascist momentum and legitimize reactionary grievances by repeatedly affirming xenophobic anxieties about immigrants and minorities.
The reason leftists argue that both parties operate under the same fascist framework is that they both prioritize a failing capitalistic system over radical socialist reform, and so will (either by choice or because trying to preserve failing capitalist systems leaves them without a choice) bend to reactionary populism and abandon socialist populism.
“democrats are better than republicans because they oppose fascism” is really only true if you ignore the common consensus among political theorists that fascism is the end product of deteriorating material conditions and the tendency of capitalist systems toward self-preservation. So long as democrats deny the demand for popular socialist reform, they are nothing more than the moderate wing of the same fascist uni-party. To be truly oppositional to fascism they need to address the contradictions in their own political framework, or else be constantly pulled rightward by the same reactionary forces acting on the right.
One is fascism. The other enables fascism through systemic means. Thus, support for either is supporting fascism.
Go read theory. You’ll learn a thing or two. Malatesta has good works on this subject.
The other enables fascism through systemic means.
Can you, using the defnition of fascism, describe how Democrats enable fascism?
YOU’RE SUPPORTING FASCISM BOTH WAYS EXCEPT ONE IS JUST SLIGHTLY SLOWER
Remember when the Democrats opposed the Patriot act? I do…n’t.
Remember when the Democrats opposed the Patriot act? I do…n’t.
It’s honestly exhausting watching people drag out the Patriot Act like it’s some ultimate “gotcha” to prove both sides are the same. Using a massive, fear-driven over-correction from 9/11 as the benchmark for how these parties actually operate is just plain ignorant.
Major attacks like that ALWAYS lead to over-correction because everyone is terrified and trying to look “tough,” but if you look at the last twenty five years of what they’ve actually done, that “both sides” argument falls apart the second you look at the record. The Patriot Act is the fucking exception, not the rule.
Since 2001, Democrats have actually passed things that help real people, like the ACA, the Inflation Reduction Act - which was the biggest climate investment we’ve ever seen - and the American Rescue Plan that kept people from drowning during the pandemic. They’ve pushed for student loan forgiveness, the CHIPS Act to actually bring jobs back here, and they tried to expand the Child Tax Credit. These are substantive, life-altering policies. Even when they’re sitting at center-right, they’re still in a completely different universe than the GOP.
Meanwhile, the Republican “to-do” list is basically just tax cuts for the rich and packing the courts with lifetime appointments specifically to gut every bit of progress we’ve made. That’s it. That’s the whole platform.
Deregulation, stripping environmental protections, and killing financial oversight.
When they aren’t busy passing tax breaks for billionaires, they are blocking everything else. They’ve blocked the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, they blocked Build Back Better, and they’ve killed every single attempt at common sense gun safety or climate action. They don’t want to govern, they just want to dismantle the floor we’re standing on.
Claiming the parties are the same because they both folded during a post-9/11 security panic is a lazy way to ignore two decades of completely opposite priorities. One side spends twenty years trying to expand healthcare and civil rights while the other side is obsessed with shrinking the state and blocking anything that doesn’t involve a corporate subsidy.
Do you freebase the copium?
Just say no to more of the same bullshit, instead of retconning it or desperately making excuses for it.
Marxism is in of itself a proven failure. Trying to implement failed ideologies will only ever result in more of the same failure. There are other, more successful ways to bring change with better principles, more accurate framework, and better results historical results.
This ain’t Marxism bruh.
Which Marxism though?
The young Marx, when there was still freedom in his thinking?
Middle Marx, when freedom was reduced to a wishful “it’ll happen, trust the economics, bruh”?
Old Marx, when the “well then we’ll make them free” & “some are more equal than others” tankies and totalitarians had completely usurped it, and handed it back to state-capitalists?
Best not take the freedom out. Other political philosophers are available.
“We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.” – Mikhail Bakunin.
Bruh, I do believe you may have responded to the wrong person. I never mentioned Marx here other than to say I didn’t quote Marxism.
I literally posted a picture and quote of Malatesta.
Bruh, I do believe you may have responded to the wrong person. I never mentioned Marx here other than to say I didn’t quote Marxism.
But
This ain’t Marxism bruh.
Is what you wrote. The very thing I responded to. That mentioned Marxism. I was merely expanding on that, showing it’s not the one simple thing that many Marxists and many McCarthyians swing around like a homogenous cudgel.
It seems more like you’ve made an error there.
“Well then we’ll make them free”, the contradiction of the auth-left, that has it face-plant, successfully making a mockery of “the left” in the minds they and their auth-right counterparts have both convinced to believe the only left. Freedom first, or they’ll keep playing us across the economics tacking ever more authoritarianwards.
And to those in the Marxist-believer groupthink, and those peddling the notion that “neo-liberal” parties are “the left”, there is no libertarian left. Oh no, don’t look over there, and don’t say things like that, or you’re a Republican fascist. LOL. It’s a lot more fun when you see through the psyop ploys, and stop falling for it.
No more having terror successfully deployed on the brain for political power usurping. Terrorism, definitively. No more of that. From those who accuse, but really confess. “Look out! Terrorists!” Is terrorist. And that’s what the duopoly do. Keep scaring you into the arms of their counterpart puppet. “No such thing as bad advertising”, especially when you’ve cornered the market and are in a system where people are scared into voting against who they don’t want, rather than for what they do want.
Imagine what that’s like… being in a system where you get to vote for what you want, not terrorised into voting against who you most don’t want. Imagine. Not a system racing to the bottom of kakistarchy, but a system where you have a real say, towards good stuff.
No corrupting centralising single-point-of-failure power-nexus attracting the most ruthless and power-abusing.
Everybody getting their real say, without duress. Free to use their creative, critical, constructive, considerate potential of their forebrains (y’know, the thing oft said most separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom), rather than succumbing to our hind-brain’s survival mode, all reactive and tribal, stressing us, making us sick. Imagine that, being healthy and free… Sounds like what’d happen if we didn’t have all this fascism and kleptarchy and kakistarchy and attercoparchy. Sounds like real democracy; organised by the people.
Direct democracy, liquid democracy, hybrid democracy, config-democracy, so many ways better…
[/Dreamer].
“But they’ll steal the elections!!!”
Oh yeah? Just like all those state and special elections they’ve been losing by double-digit electorate shifts for the last 18 months? Including the one covering FUCKING MAR-A-LAGO???
Grow the fuck up. Get registered to vote, and when elections come round, VOTE, DAMN IT. Fascism only wins if you just give up and let it.
Exactly. I personally believe the election is going to be stolen, but nobody should fucking do the job FOR them. Voting MIGHT work, and you can still prepare for ridiculous, shortsighted guerilla fantasies after taking a day to go TRY the easy solution.
What are these gorilla fantasies?
You know, living in the jungle with your favorite apes
Yaaaaay. Bonobo life. ;D
Harambe.
“But they’ll steal the elections!!!”
LOL. Yup. That’s the crux of the terror that knocks people out of their considerate, critical, creative forebrain, and pushes them into their reactive social-dominating survival-focused fearful limbic reflex where they’re easier to control.
This time, America… stop falling for it. :) We can still mend this.
Fascism only wins if you just give up and let it.
And so don’t fall for the false dichotomies. ;D
More than voting may be required. And that does not mean badgering your fellow Americans into deeper divisive groupthink. :)
