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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/16451158
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Oh you don’t like either candidate? What a special person you are! I can’t believe that a nation of 340 million people winnowed down their possible leaders to two people without producing one that you absolutely love!
“Literally the only way”? They tried violent treason and have refused to swear in duly elected reps that are not of their party. If you think they’ll leave when their term is up just because you voted someone else in… the major players aren’t going anywhere. These aren’t the kind of people that gain power and then let it go. Don’t not vote, but don’t believe that’s how we’re getting out of this mess.
both sides are pretty bad, but you still gotta get on the bus
Right, but that’s also no excuse for running lesser monsters on the other side. We have every right to refuse all monsters no matter their severity.
I like how people here are trying to have a discussion of whether or not voting third party, or voting at all, is necessary when there are currently concerns (and investigations) of Trump and the Epstein class rigging this last election in the first place. I should also remind everyone that there were similar concerns when Bush first got elected back in 2000. How sure are we that we can rely on voting if that is indeed true?
Furthermore-- I voted for Harris, but I am fucking sick and tired of voting for Democrats. Fucking sick and tired! They are fucking useless. I voted Democrat these last four presidential elections and it is these Democrats and the party as a whole who helped usher in Trump. It has done nothing but cause problems. Biden carved the pathway for both Trump and Netanyahu to carry on the genocide in Palestine and now in Lebanon. He helped the Israeli government go on this psychotic imperialistic crusade against others like Iran and very soon Cuba. And Greenland. Harris vowed that she would continuing working with the Israeli government if she was elected, and she vowed to have the ICE budget expanded also. Both sides ARE fucking bad. Democrats have done jack shit to try to impeach Trump or 25th amendment him so far despite the child sex trafficking through ICE arrests, nor the outright kidnapping and murders of American citizens on the streets and in ICE encampments. Nor for kidnapping leaders of other countries. The list goes on.
Most Democrat congressmen are financed by AIPAC just like the Republicans. Whether anyone is liking or not, the Democrats are 1,000% enabling the Republicans, and even if Harris won this last election, we will be dealing with the potentiality that the Republicans would come back in full force by mid-terms or general elections anyway.
I understand that voting blue no matter who is a way for people to feel as though they are doing something. I still encourage voting. But voting blue no matter who, no matter how bad or how mediocre the candidate is, is clearly not working at all.
There is no historical precedent for an electoral solution to massive wealth inequality. There is no historical precedent for an electoral solution to fascism. If you think voting alone is going to save our country, or the world, you have a problem.
Both sides bad AND you still have to vote.
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But a democratic politician did that one thing thirty years ago!
both sides are bad, but voting for lesser evil is still better than letting bigger evil prosper. But pretending choice between 2 evils is the ONLY option is what is perpetuating this bullshit. And if there truly is nothing to be done except accept your one party system that is split in 2, you need to work on dismantling the whole system instead but that is chemoterapy level option so hopefully it doesnt get to that.
America needs more parties so people have actually something to vote.
They’ll try to shove you off the platform with constant negativity and trying to act like Trump is just a continuation of all the same. If you didn’t care before, why do you care now?
It’s not. It’s different.
Both parties have the identical end goal in mind. One is just slower at it.
Lol.
More “bOtH sIdEz” idiocy.
I’m just sad that more than zero people have upvoted that idiocy. Guess I’ll just take solace in the fact that more than twice as many people have downvoted it.
So for fucks sake pick the one that’s slower at it so you have more time to do something about it. It’s not like voting locks you out of any other actions.
But Americans aren’t doing anything about it except voting.
The ones who are going to do more are already doing more, and both-sidesing the ones who aren’t is just going to make them do even less. Just let them help with slowing the descent down a bit, that’s the most they’re going to do anyway. It buys time for the ones who are doing something to do something.
Or maybe the accelerationists are right, make the nail rusty enough, fast enough, get the frog realising it has to jump out or it’ll be boiled.
… if that’s not too much metaphor mixing.
Solution space may be elsewhere.
Maybe the accelerationists are right, but then maybe they aren’t and that’s a whole lot of suffering and collateral damage for nothing.
I hate this take, because it ignores the reality that this isn’t Europe and that you can’t even get sick in this country without health insurance with risking homelessness, let alone any massive coordinated action.
Like around here they’re always posting pictures of protests and you look at the people at the protests and it’s all retirees and college kids. Why? Because everyone else is at fucking work because if they’re not at work they miss a mortgage/rent payment and end up living in their car. The majority of US states have at will employment laws meaning they can and will fire you with no notice or even need to provide justification beyond the performative “this termination not due to you being a member of a legally protected class”.
Wage slaves are still slaves, and telling people today that their inaction means they’re complicit is no different then going back in time 200 years and telling the slaves on the plantations that they’re just as responsible for their bondage as the people that put them in chains. Fuck that nonsense.
more time to do something about it
Do what about it exactly?
How the fuck does voting for slow burn help?
Whatever you think needs to be done; absolutely anything ranging from peaceful protest to violent uprising. What exactly are you arguing, that it’s best to sit back and take it? That it’s better to put you face in the mouth of the leopard eating you rather than your arm so that at least you have a chance of fighting back? Even if one is an accelerationist (a profoundly naive position in my opinion, but that’s another discussion) willfully not voting is the intellectually cowardly option, justifying inaction rather than sticking to your ideals and actively voting for the option you believe will accelerate the most. The point is that voting is not a mutually exclusive action to take like so many people on Lemmy seem to act like it is.
Or, vote for something other than going to the bad place?
Someone offers you two pills, you don’t have to take either. You can make your own, and seek other options.
Yeah, but if you say “I don’t care, I have absolutely no preference”, then when kids get blown up in Iran it becomes your fault.
Yeah. Don’t say that. Who’s advocating for that? Did you think I was advocating for that??
Well, there’s this thing called voting literacy, and the thing is, if your voting literacy is poor, you can say things you don’t intend to say. So yes, you did say “I don’t care, I have absolutely no preference”. And it’s your responsibility to learn enough mathematics to be able to say what you mean. I’m not gonna treat you like a baby and find the intended meaning in what you say, you have to grow up and say what you mean.
Slanderous misrepresentation. Did not say that.
So implausible, it seems you’re just trolling. Or maybe have crossed wires, replying to the wrong thing? … Or maybe have some psyop programs running that you truly believe what you say, with your perception perverted by some kind of groupthink and the false dichotomy fallacies the programming produces? Or maybe narcissistic deflecting and blame shifting and trying to save face rather than entertain an idea and concede the logic and learn from it? Or… maybe you’re on to something sound that you’ve just yet to effectively convey? But then, even if that’s so, we’re back to projecting, with the peculiarly expressed accusation of failing to communicate effectively (~ with mathematics?). And the condescending gaslighting hypocrisy doesn’t help your case much either.
If you can quote the relevant parts, I’m happy to hear out your explanation that refutes my claim I did not say that. Especially if you can do it without the inflamed ego toxicity. LOL.
If you think voting Democrat would have prevented kids being blown up in Iran, you’re the fucking idiot here.
I think voting Democrat would have prevented kids being blown up in Iran, and it would have prevented ICE from having as many employees throwing immigrants in concentration camps, and I think it would have prevented the genocide of trans people that’s going to start next year. And don’t call Me an idiot, please.
Then there is no hope for you because you are deluded
It’s no use asking these people to do any kind of direct action. They think abstaining once every four years will bring an end to capitalism. They’ll never attend a protest or vote in a primary, much less pick up a gun for the revolution.
“Keep doing the same thing over and over again, and each time, expect a different outcome. It is the smart intelligent sane thing to do.” – Einstein, probably
I’ve long been wary of anyone peddling an “only way”. Yet to find a claim of “only way” that’s not fallacious. Quite scary in this parroted psyop. “Be very afraid! Stay in your reactionary social-dominance totalitarian-psyche groupthink mass formation!” XD Gonna a be a beautiful beautiful thing, when people stop falling for it.
Y’know there are more than two sides right? And that they’re not even sides? … Beautiful beautiful thing when people snap out of the “lies so big that not even their inverse are true”.
Wrong
The left and the right.
Of the Overton Window.
Yup. In this case, the Overton Window’s Auth-Right on the political compass. Those on the left half of it call themselves “The Left”.
As a non US citizen I’ll say it again: you factually only have right.
The day most realize this will be the start of change.
So absolute reactionary and slightly less reactionary
I remember 2004, a friend had come back to our home town for new years, and in our fave local pub, he regaled us with stories of what it was like working with Trump. He told us about what a joke of a played narcissist he is, being primed by his psychopathic handlers for a puppet presidency. … It seemed absurd, implausible even, for about a decade.
I heard recently they were planning on having Charlie Kirk become president in the distant future too… until he grew sense and conscience. Imagine if each of their puppets attain consciousness and conscientiousness… and they have no puppets left to deceive us with… :D
Imagine if USA had democracy. Cleared up all the election rigging, the fixed proprietary voting machines, the lobbying, the gerrymandering, the electoral college, the voter suppression, the bought corporate media, etc, etc, etc. Imagine if the people in USA got to vote for what they want, not merely under duress to vote against who they don’t want.
Imagine if it were real…
People deserve to vote for someone they actually support, not the least terrible option.
Stop blaming the voters.
Well said.
Or as I take it a little further (s/someone/what/ hinting at more direct democracy too):
Imagine getting to vote for what you want, not against who you don’t want.
But I really like how you put it too.
People deserve to vote for someone they actually support, not the least terrible option.
Not if you live in reality.
Stop blaming the voters.
I’ll keep blaming voters who keep voting 3rd party in presidential elections thinking a third party can win when the last most popular 3rd party candidate in the 2024 election only got 0.5% of the total votes cast.
I’ll keep blaming voters that can’t do simple math and make the most intelligent decision based on the reality they live in.
I’m not going to stop you, I’m not your dad.
Did you even read the meme? Lol
It literally is not blaming voters. It’s blaming morons like you who don’t vote and then worse, discourage others from voting. Voting is the easiest form of civil engagement and if you can’t even do that then you’re a troglodyte and you don’t deserve an opinion.
That being said, if you actually have a shit about changing things, which you obviously don’t, you should vote AND organize your neighborhood AND support progressive candidates AND do anything at all.
I’m not even in the States, and I do vote in my own country’s elections.
I’m just sick of seeing people blame the voting public for not voting the way they wanted. You’ve failed to convince them, this is on you.
Why are you expending so much effort to get fascists elected? If you’re not going to participate then just shut the fuck up. At least stay silent instead of actively helping fascism take more power. Unless of course, your job is to discourage civil activism at the behest of said fascists.
Whether you’re an actual person or a bot doesn’t really matter. You’re both doing the same work and I really hate those who enable fascism. So if you’re a real person then kindly go fuck yourself. If you’re a bot then doubly so.
just shut the fuck up
Sure, people deserve better options. But the fucking point is that WHEN those options do NOT exist, voting for the WORSE option is fucking STUPID and supports fascism. When anyone convinces someone who wouldn’t vote for the less bad option not to vote, FASCISM WINS.
The hour is later than you think, since both [sides of the purple party] are bought by the same interests.
There are even more less bad options, than the 2nd worst most likely to win. Baa-aa-aa-aad is still bad.
When people keep voting for the LESS BAD option when those better options do NOT exist, better options WON’T appear as voting LESS BAD removes the INCENTIVE for it. Therefore voting for the LESS BAD option ensures the options will always remain FASCISM and something slightly LESS BAD - no better options. If one wants better options, keep voting LESS BAD is fucking STUPID.
When the general election hits, you will have two options (yea three or more). You can vote for the Republican, fascist candidate. Or you can vote for the Democratic candidate.
Anything other than - at that point - voting for the Dem is throwing your support behind fascists.
That is simple fact.
And that includes third parties.
Anything you want to try and do to change the system - because it fucking needs it - should be done before/outside of that process.
It’s really not fucking complicated.
Can you spoil your ballot in protest?
I guess people would have to elect at least one more fascist gov’t then. Cause people don’t give a shit what the process is and won’t vote for turd sandwich in sufficient numbers no matter how much you insist they do. And I’m not doing that. I’m merely trying to present the view of the person who doesn’t buy this shit, didn’t vote Kamala and won’t vote Newsom no matter how hard you scold them.
And that’s part of the reason we have fascists in charge.
Your logic only applies to local/state elections. It does not apply to presidential elections.
If you vote 3rd party in a presidential election, you’re a fool acknowleging you’re incapable of doing basic math and fine with the worst case scenario.
Explain how does it not work? People not voting for the shitty D candidate, causing them to lose to R doesn’t create an incentive for D to change course? Do I need to presrnt to you the last two years of intense D soul searching after Kamala lost?
fine with the worst case scenario.
Obvioisly that’s part of the calculus. Most who question the lesser evil approach understand this. However you might not understand that no matter how hard you call people fools, that doesn’t change the picture for people who’ve given up on voting for Turd Sandwich. Might even be achieving the opposite. A lot of people are done with the Turd Sandwich status quo and are either staying home or voting Giant Douche. Sounds like you have to give them something better to vote for if you don’t want more Giant Douche.
People not voting for the shitty D candidate, causing them to lose to R
Congrats, you just elected fascists.
I guess you’ll have to do something about it then.
I am. I’m trying to teach people how not to support fascists.
Hope you feel proud of your principles when they disappear you into the camps too.
🫠
the democrats or the republicans?
I don’t know, fucking genius, you tell me who fucking set ICE out murdering US citizens and throwing them into fucking camps? Are you a fucking fascist and trying to play around here and confuse people, or are you willfully this fucking goddamn fucking stupid? Either way, fascists certainly adore your contribution to the conversation.
I don’t know, fucking genius, you tell me
Are you a fucking fascist and trying to play around here and confuse people, or are you willfully this fucking goddamn fucking stupid? Either way, fascists certainly adore your contribution to the conversation.
lol, good on yer trying to throw it back like that, but you have to put a unique spin on it or something. I lost my temper at you, but I stand by the spirit of it, even though I wish I’d been able to keep my temper better.
ICE, started in 2003… remember when the Democrat party was in power, both times, all three terms since then, when they got rid of ICE and… ohhhh wait.
Solution space lays elsewhere.
Ignorance must be fucking bliss.
You’re not wrong, but the time to fix that is at the primary and not the general.
And yes, I’m aware the DNC has their thumb on the scale when it comes to the Democratic primary. So that means vote in your local elections too, so that there are actually progressive candidates to choose from instead of corporate-owned do-nothings.
They DO have the right to not vote, but they also DO have a civic duty to cast their votes. Voters are the ones who decide elections, and if the results are bad, it is up to voters to do better next time. I think this is less blaming, and more just people trying to hold the electorate accountable for their choices.
Voters are the ones who decide elections,
Are you sure about that?
Given the voter suppression & gerrymandering, the lobbying & corporate media consolidation, the electoral college & candidate selection process, the rigged proprietary voting machines & counting frauds, etc. etc. etc… [atop the First-Past-The-Post terror scam that coerces people to vote against who they most don’t want between the perceived most likely to win].
More to mend than just getting people to “vote correctly”.
If votes didn’t matter, then none of the efforts you mentioned to suppress and manipulate the voters would be necessary. Yet they’re happening anyway because people do ultimately hold the power, and that terrifies the rich and powerful who seek to control it.
No. Just no. The truth is still the truth, and saying the truth doesn’t mean you are trying to do anything but say the truth. Both sides should be banned from holding political office or any involvement in the political process. Clean flush.
And then when you wake up from the dream world where both parties a completely rebuilt, you need to vote for your actual choices.
If the Republicans never have a chance of winning again, it becomes much easier for the actual progressives to differentiate themselves from the more centrist Democrats.
Never said anything contrary to what you are saying. I just can’t stand posts like this BS that claim all people who say both sides are bad are really saying blah blah. Both sides are bad. That is just a fact. And I won’t call either of them good. That doesn’t mean anything more than it clearly says.
YEah, that’s fine. But what do you do until that happens, hmm? By not voting for the party that at a minimum causes LESS harm, you are supporting fascism.
If saying “the truth” means fewer people vote against the Republicans, the Republicans win and continue to fuck our democracy. All because people like you care more about the “truth” than strategically voting the best options on the ground at any given time.
That’s WHY the fascists push “both sides” as hard as they do. It’s one of the things keeping them in power.
Never said I don’t vote against the republicans. You just highlighted the problem. Posts like this are meant to villianize people who acknowledge that both sides are evil. It litterally makes a divide between those who vote D, and those who vote D but admit they are evil too. That drives more people to not vote D.
Bull fucking shit.
Posts like this encourage people not to vote, which helps fascists win.
There’s nothing stopping anyone from working on change at ANY fucking time, but NOT voting Dem in the general election is NOT the fucking time to do it.
:Shurg: the news everyday encourages people not to vote with how little the dems do and how much they give in. The post OP was referencing have negligible impact.
And who owns the media? You have to ask yourself why the media reports what they report.
I know who owns them, and I know why they report what they report. That wasn’t the point. The point was that thier impact is orders of magnitude more then the few people who the posts OP referred to might sway. So the real impact of ops post is to split up people who support the same overall goals, not to stop people from being convinced not to vote.
people voting is how we got every president but gw bush.
they were all terrible.
no more presidents.
no more presidents.
Then change the system. Eliminate voting or whatever.
But meanwhile, VOTE FOR THE NOT-FASCIST OPTION. :P
options
you’re really confusing. a minute ago I thought you wanted me to vote for the democrats
Cute.
What’s your plan to achieve that other than posting here?
I vote in the primaries and support the most progressive, and least polotician like people I can find on the ballot. My state is solid blue, so I don’t have to worry about a republican winning anything at the federal level.
To only have two sides is the problem.
It’s going to be an even bigger problem when it drops down to only having one side.
The Red Army is not coming to the rescue.
It’s one of many parts of the problem.
Sure, but as far as what we can control right now, let’s elect some fucking Democrats please
How much longer will this be a cookie cutter answer?
Until Americans learn how to vote for 3rd parties in local/state elections and get more than ZERO 3rd party representatives in Congress.
Let’s get Democrats controlling all three branches of government for more than 30 seconds to start.
And by “controlling” we mean “supermajority” thanks to the veto and filibuster.
And will things magically be better? Well, better, yes, good, no. First, it takes a lot of time to undo the harm fascists have done. And second, our oligarchs would still be in control, pushing for their needs above ours.
So we need to… solve… our oligarch problem AND win a supermajority AND then We the People need to push that Overton window back to the left, forcing our politicians to serve our needs.
…which is why I say we’re pretty fucked. But that’s what needs to happen, anyway.
Defy the dire prognosis, and head mendwards anyway.
Until there are enough grassroots progressive candidates to take over the democratic party the same way the tea party movement took over the republican party, and finally some progressive initiatives can pass into law, such as eliminating FPTP.
Please don’t take the “just vote democrats into office” answer to mean “sit tight and do nothing but vote” when voting is really the bare minimum activism you should be doing to preserve a democratic system.
I just wonder how patient US voters are, for the changes you project.
Does it matter? Most voters have no attention span. They aren’t revolutionaries. They aren’t going to take to the streets no matter how bad things get. Stop trying to change people who aren’t going to change when you lack the influence to change them in the first place, and focus on trying to leverage what you’ve got as productively as you can.
Build your cadres, make the change you can, and make lemonade from the lemons you’ve got.
Yeah, if waiting for something before contributing to mends, the crooks will prevent that something to keep you passively complicit.
Mendwards now!
Yeah, we need more John Fettermans and Joe Manchins and Krysten Cinemenmas.
Right. So the alternative to those is more Marco Rubios, Mike Johnsons, MTG, etc etc etc etc. All of whom are much worse.
We need better people running for office that get financial support from the people, but when it comes down to the general election, whatever addhats made it that far, the Democrat is going to be BY FAR the better pick 99.9% of the time. And if the Republican is truly better, sure, vote for them, but remember that at the party level, Republicans are the ones bringing us fascism.
The point - the entire fucking point - is people saying “Don’t vote for the Fetterman/Manchin/etc in the general election” help the fascists win. Of course it’s shitty options, but you want to pick the LESS. FUCKING. SHITTY. OPTIONS.
Or… any of many other options, than just more corruptible agents and assets.
I often imagine what it may be like with, not just adjustments to re-presentative democracy (like ranked choice voting, proportionate representation, etc), but even beyond direct democracy, even beyond liquid democracy, all the way to (what I call) config-democracy…
“Config-Democracy”, where we each are free to input our say as elaborate (or as terse) as we want, updated when we want, as direct or deferring as we want. Where our “vote” is like a config file, not merely a single mark on a corrupted multiple choice. … unless you want to vote like that still in config-democracy. You’re free to. But I imagine everybody wants more say than that.
All kinds of facilitators can be developed for such. Heck, we even already have the likes of the political compass test, and the world’s shortest political quiz, that for decades have already offered us better means to present our political philosophies. … Funny how the crooks have not sought to implement that eh? Given how the spray of popular results show they’d be voted out of office the first day any such were implemented. … Imagine that, huh? Real democracy, real organisation by the people, for the people.
:)
We can still mend this.
Only two sides stand a chance of winning a presidential election. No amount of whining about the 2-party system changes that.
Stop whining everybody. Act like you are able to change something. I know you can do it!
Especially when they’re not even different sides.
I refuse to stop shit talking democrats, if they weren’t absolutely complicit warmongers we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.
Nobody is saying not to shit talking them, people are saying that nuance is needed. We need to push for better representatives. BUT. When the general election happens, we need to vote Democrat because REPUBLICANS ARE FUCKING FASCISTS. Because while both sides suck, both sides do not suck equally. So shit talk your Democrats, as long as you shit talk your Republicans even more. Or do they get a pass because you write them off as evil?
Does your shit talking drive people away from voting for Democrats when the vote is Dem vs Repub? If so, you support fascism. Plain and simple.
Put your energy into change where it matters: Primaries, other offices, pushing society back to the left away from fascism. Make sure you’re not helping the fascists win.
The OP meme is not calling for nuance, it’s saying that if you’re shittalking democrats you’re helping Republicans win.
My democrat state rep sucks and is in practice a thinly-veiled Republican coasting on incumbency and people not investigating beyond the ‘D’
My federal rep (D) has been actively complicit in perpetuating the genocide in Palestine and allowing Trump to walk all over Venezuela. I actually put in a lot of effort with antiwar groups to try to sway them in the past. What I learned is that when it comes to war and empire if they want to climb the ranks in DC they’re going to tow the line.
Open Republicans are obviously worse, but theyre also a non factor in my state, they just run for ‘nonpartisan’ seats or pose as democrats. This is also why i chaff at vote-bluers, they will act like challenging an incumbent ‘democrat’ who sucks is somehow helping Republicans
How so?
Beyond the more general point, a concrete example - if the Biden admin didn’t supply unlimited bombs to Israel, they would not have lost to Trump. There’s enough numbers to support this claim.
What do you mean how so?
The democrats are prolific warmongers, they just think they’re smarter about it than Republicans.
Oh I’m not arguing that, I’m just asking how that would have kept us out of this mess.
If they weren’t prolific warmongers and instead did things that were actually popular at home then they would probably be seen as more trustworthy and not lost to Trump repeatedly, idk how more to spell it out for you
Maybe, but then they would’ve been buried by AIPAC money, as we’ve repeatedly seen. They’ve done plenty of positive things at home, or at least tried to, but all that gets ignored. Sure, I’d love to see a positive change, but we have to acknowledge the reality of the political landscape, and opposing Israel is political suicide with current campaign finance influences.
They didn’t oppose Israel at all and they ate complete shit anyways.
they may have ‘tried’ to do positive things at home, but they also spent billions arming a genocide which triggered a blockade of the red sea and disrupted supply chains. Failing to negotiate a settlement with russia didn’t do energy markets any favors, the blowback from sanctions and energy prices absolutely contributed to inflation that people felt, and then blamed on democrats. ‘brandonflation’
Like you can make excuses about AIPAC or whatever, but the people who felt the consequences of these wars voted accordingly. It sucks that there was no left candidate to vote for and that resulted in republicans winning. However that’s also the democrats fault for not running a real primary and ignoring all the people voting uncommitted.
There were plenty of warnings, they were just ignored.
Sure, but Democratic voters are not democratic leadership. If you have a problem with Democratic leadership, tell it to them. Voters don’t benefit from Democrats losing to Republicans.
