I respect people’s right to use apple products, but please stop asserting “privacy”, big corps doesn’t give a shit.
Week 4 on GrapheneOS:
This is the best. I should have done this years ago.
Even IF all you care about is performance, this is the option. Fastest pocket derputer I’ve used in my life.
I’ve been planning to switch to GrapheneOS soon, though my carrier (Verizon) makes it kinda difficult.
How so? I’m on Verizon. Swapped my sim and off I went. Upgrade credit issue with them or something?
They told me they couldn’t get the 256GB model so I said @#^ them and bought myself one
I have an eSIM which my research showed is a little difficult to get working on GrapheneOS. Also the fact that Verizon sells them locked and doesn’t provide support for non stock OSes. I would have to switch out for a regular SIM, though I simply haven’t found the time. Also I haven’t fully paid off my current phone.
if you already have an esim on the phone it will not be wiped during installation - esims reside on a completely separate chip.
all “difficult to set up” information is exactly about that - setting up, that, in any case, is just about enabling specific google services that you can disable afterwards.
my phone has about 5 esims installed, I regularly wipe my phone, they are unaffected.
That’d be like saying “I totally trust Google with all of my so-called offline documents by using their totally online suite. They totally wouldn’t like, be analyzing the contents once I am online or anything, would they?”
I don’t quite get the hierarchy, Linux phones have FOSS software, and greater device capability and software support compared to dumb phones. They should be ranked above dumb phones.
They are. Look at the meme, Linux phones get the tux.
Well of course they do. It’s their mascot.
Unfortunately Linux phones are not that mature yet. Often they lack basic functions like “calling”.
Often they lack basic functions like “calling”.
Who needs to do that in this day and age?? ha ha!
Yeah but at at least they never sell information about who you have been calling!
You’ve had “security though obscurity” now try “security though inability”!
So if they can’t call then they aren’t really a phone then. Which is kinda wild that that’s missing, that’s literally the basic functionality of a phone.
Yes, but I want to emphasize that it’s not a lack of skill or focus of the Linux phone developers. Calling is exceptionally complex to implement if you have to reverse engineer all drivers and the used hardware is closed. Most of the other stuff on the software level such as menus, apps, browsing etc. is “basic computer stuff”.
I get that it’s hard to make, but it is the bare minimum anyone expects from a phone. Not having it is a bad look.
If I bought a phone that was literally incapable of calling people I don’t know a way to describe that other than fraud.
It’s a scam, by being called a phone it implies that it can call people or receive calls.
It also could become quite detrimental to Linux phones in general if the idea that some of these phones can’t call reaches the public eye. Because you just know that the stigma against Linux phones will be that they can’t call anyone. Which like how bad Linux used to be for general users has left it with the stigma that it’s just not functional.
Calling is being used less and less. I think the main feature required is to run apps and connect to the internet.
@Fizz @oxysis Agreed, after #SaltTyphoon, no one should be using legacy unencrypted calls and SMS for personal communication. A data-only SIM with instant messaging apps for calls and messages can work in 2025.
Can you imagine explaining to a normie that you can’t make phone calls on your phone because you’re running an operating system they’ve never heard of?
They’d think you’re the dumbest person they’ve ever met.
@Ilovethebomb @Fizz Depends on your circle but in my experience, these are the same people who completely locked into WhatsApp, Facebook, Gmail, etc and only use SMS/calls when you don’t answer their WA messages : )
Basically just a tablet lmao
I think its not hard to explain that I just use whatsapp for calls(I dont use whatsapp but you get rhe point). Most Normies stop using SMS and cell calling a long time ago.
If I really cared I could just say that I had no phone credit and they would accept that.
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What a weird strawman
Google literally copied this from Apple.
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Google: app developers use the zygote loading system to create an everpresent preloaded bedroom on your device with access to whatever they want in sensor hardware access and monitoring. It is essentially like a full equivalent computer user in parallel. This is how it just works while the (exploited-mark) human user is ignorant about operating systems, networking, and security. They have full equivalent access because you do not understand the details. Again these are full equivalent users. They are likely intimately preset with you more than any other partner… If they are there for stalkerware digital slavery, to sell your digital person for exploitation and manipulation, such a transaction is much like prostitution. The motivations of developers that are not whoring people out are mostly benevolent, altruistic, or taking a stand to support liberal democratic freedom. So in essence google is a digital slaver running a loose coalition of independent developer pimps that collectively enslave your digital person for manipulation and exploitation.
Apple: is a central fascist neo feudal lord that centralizes the exploitation and slavery under a single market forum where they directly manipulate and extort every developer and slave. Apple is the stalkerware data salver selling the exact same data to manipulate and extort users just like google.
The difference has been an open market free for all of privateer piracy raiding the coast of Africa to fuel the Southern plantations and flying the Jolly Roger of google, versus the matrix growing humans in a vast vat field with the Jolly Roger of Apple on the side of the buildings. To call one different than the other in terms of privacy is a joke as sour as US politics represents a balanced spectrum of interests. It is all stalkerware data slavery ownership of a part of an individual’s physical person for exploitation and manipulation. Open Source software is the last bastion fortress of real citizens in a democracy fighting off zombie pirates flying a Jolly Roger. This is a choice between Apple vanishing people and Google abducting them from the fortress.
ROMs are the red pill, a revolver, and a place to stay for fightimg for freedom from the 21st century digital slavery phase of neo fascism, and its coming total war 3.
I don’t think PG has updated yet to take into account that F-Droid is saying they might shut down if Google proceeds with the app verification stuff
We only recommend F-Droid as a way to obtain apps which cannot be obtained via the means above.
The “means above” that I see are:
- Obtainium
- GrapheneOS App Store
- Aurora Store
- Manually with RSS Notifications
I don’t see any mean “below” F-Droid.
I don’t think that privacyguides.org will have to be updated significantly if something related to F-Droid happens since it already documents that “there are some security-related downsides to how F-Droid builds, signs, and delivers packages”. It’s clear to me that using F-Droid should only be used when it’s clear that all other means will fail to produce suitable results.
I hear Linux phones are close for daily driver stuff. Gonna try one when I am ready for a phone.
Pretty disappointed in my 2 year old pixel, regardless of Googles continued enshitification
@chocrates @DeathByBigSad If you’re already used to Linux desktop, I’d even venture to say that Linux phones are daily drivable for you in this order: #FLX1s from @furilabs, #JollaC2, #LibertyPhone, #Librem5, #Pinephone.
I’m daily driving a #Librem 5 with #postmarketOS and everything critical actually works for my use case.
Have you looked into GrapheneOS support for your device?
Sucks that it only works on Pixels for the most part. I’ve never paid that much for a phone, and I ain’t starting now lol
FYI, I just got LineageOS on a cheap Motorola phone ($140 USD, but you need a PC to do the install)
Nice! I have a PC! I’m just very cheap!
I got to expense mine, wouldn’t pay that much if i had to actually pay lol
Maybe get used? That way you don’t support Google and it doesn’t cost too much. Not sure how much mine cost, I got it as a gift from my mother who’s pretty good about finding sales for things, although it was brand-new.
If not that then people seem to see CalyxOS as a decent alternative.
Not CalyxOS right now.
https://calyxos.org/news/2025/08/01/a-letter-to-our-community/I went with /e/OS, and it works well, even bank apps.
Let me put this here:
Murena (the ppl behind /e/ OS) feed your data to LLMs, and there’s also telemetry.
Apple does give a shit about privacy… in the same way that companies care about gay pride. Right now privacy is still a selling point for Apple compared to other companies. This is why they are still so loud about on device AI and pretty much silent when any of their features require cloud processing. But am under no illusions that will remain the case forever.
As far as “dumb phones” are concerned; they don’t exist anymore. It’s still a device with an OS, GPS (as required by the law that created the Amber Alert here in the US), and an Internet connection, that makes calls using VoLTE or similar. Most of the ones you can buy today run things like KaiOS which has an App Store and comes with Google Maps preinstalled.
If you want real privacy you need to disconnect from the Internet which pretty much means no phones at all now that everything is VoIP.
Mostly agree except about disconnecting from the internet, classic SMS/voice calls aren’t any more private than VoIP.
Your best bet for location privacy is E2E encrypted services like Signal over wifi, plus MAC randomization and a VPN on untrusted networks. I’d say GrapheneOS is good enough for most people, but mobile Linux has also come a long way.
Encryption doesn’t stop them from knowing what tower you are attached to. Simply having a phone on you even with the GPS and WiFi off (or with the newer phones even the whole phone off) would still be enough to get your location to within a few hundred feet. The original iPhone used triangulation exclusively for location.
Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services. They’re not perfect by any means but they are by far a lesser evil.
A fully capable Linux phone is the dream, but most people aren’t going to use one. For the majority of people, I would recommend the company that refused to listen to the US and EU about weakening the security of their products than the one with the business model of relying on advertising to you and selling your data.
They just do that for brand optics. Because researchers found the apple privacy settings off/on made no difference to the packet of info sent to apple. Their privacy is a facade.
The issue in one of the cases (San Bernardino) had nothing to do with iCloud data, and everything to do with the data on the device itself. The FBI request was a backdoor into the device. Apple (rightly) refused to add a backdoor to access the phone.
You are referencing data that goes to Apple’s iCloud servers, which Apple was happy to provide because they held the encryption keys. Since then, they have enabled an E2E encryption feature for iCloud data.
I am happy to discuss Apple’s shortcomings, but let’s be clear on which ones we’re discussing
Its the don’t track privacy type settings where you opt out, research found it was a toggle button that did nothing.
They only tout privacy to gain market, they would sell us out for a dollar
Is this separate from Advanced Data Protection, which is E2E encrypted data on iCloud?
“Don’t track privacy type settings” isn’t very descriptive, so apologies if I’m sounding any way I’m just trying to be clear about what the complaint here is.
And to be clear, is this a privacy concern exclusive to Apple?
Totally unrelated to the E2E, I will have to search for it. It was a year or two ago. Apple claimed turning off the data collection kept your use private to you, but was just a lie, they collected all your data anyway.
And yes, its an IPhone setting not an android setting. Google is another issue.
Ok please let me know when you have more information I am very interested to know.
And they have proven if the government makes a law requiring access they’ll do it. They have done it for China and Russia.
Well yeah they kinda have to at that point in order to continue conducting business in that country. What about this is specific to Apple?
That’s literally any company though. If you want to legally operate in a certain country, you need to abide by the country’s laws. Sure, pirate FOSS projects could exist. But that’s not the kind of shit that will be sold in retail, because it would literally be illegal to sell.
This is like complaining that Japanese phones can’t disable the camera shutter sound. It’s because Japan regulated the shutter sound, because upskirting was a major issue. So phones legally sold in Japan are required to have the shutter sound permanently set at a high volume, even when the ringer is silenced. That isn’t the phone maker’s fault.
Apple campaigned against regulation like what you’re complaining about. It isn’t Apple’s fault that the regulation was passed anyways.
Was giving literal gold to Donald Trump part of that campaign to save the users?
No that was Tim Apple kissing the ring.
You’re saying the same thing as the top of the thread. All of this is for now. At some point it could be advantageous for Apple to stop resisting US demands. It is important to understand and prepare for that while also accepting, for now, Apple provides the most corporate privacy of the corporate privacy options in the US.
The three of us are in agreement.
Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services.
Indeed.
They also immediately folded in China after being given the ultimatum of comply or die.
All it would take is Trump to give the same ultimatum…
Yeah I would expect the same of any company. They have to comply with the laws of the country they do business in. This same requirement compelled them to finally add USB-C to iPhones and allow alternate app stores.
I wouldn’t blame Google for doing the same, so I’m not going to blame Apple for it either. Do you actually expect any company their size to do any different?
To the extent they’re legally able to, Apple has absolutely resisted compromising their device security features to aid law enforcement.
Good thing Trump’s distracted by gold baubles.
Dumb phones, has anyone tried: https://sunbeamwireless.com/ ?
Interesting. Looks to be based on Android AOSP which kind of puts you in the same boat. Th price tag kind of hurts as well at $250 give or take depending on features.
Not “non-approved apps”, unsigned apps. They’re not running approval on the software itself. And technically you can still sideload signed software. And you can sideload unsigned software in non-Google certified Android devices, too.
Hey, I hate their stupid power grab, it sucks and I hope regulators intervene, but if you’re gonna get all pretentious and uppity about everybody else’s responses you’re gonna get fact checked. I don’t make the rules.
Say, I wanna run an F-Droid app, I trust F-Droid’s signature, but Google doesn’t, therefore, I can’t run it. Tell me: How is that not an “approval process”.
And how about izzyondroid or The Guardian? What if they don’t wanna show their IDs or if Google deems them “untrustworthy”. (They are more safe than the “Play Store” btw, Google can’t even keep their own stores free of malware lol, which a bunch of volunteers have much safer apps)
I can already tell this is going to be one of those conversations you get online where people are just itching for somebody to defend the position they want to argue against and will just have that argument regardless of what the other side says.
But because I’m a very flawed person I’ll still go for it and note that technically if F-Droid is the one signing all the apps and Google doesn’t like one of them, they’d have to ban F-Droid’s entire account, not just the one app. Anything else would require them to look at the apps in the first place, which in this scenario they are not doing.
But it’s certainly possible that they’ll ban a specific developer (or a store if the store is doing the signing), and that’s one of the reasons why this scheme is unacceptable.
What it is not is an approval process, since… you know, they’re not looking at the apps themselves. Words mean things.
Presumably, at least nominally, Google wants the signatures to be able to tie an app to a developer. Whether they are going to ban people proactively or not we simply don’t know because their stupid policy is barely communicated and they seem to intend to get it rolling before addressing any of these because Apple already used this loophole successfully so why the hell not, I suppose.
The last panel could also say “muh iPhone! I was never allowed to sideload anyway!” [I say this as an iPhone user]
The humble IPA file:
Honestly though what should I switch to. I have a lot of apps that need side loading.
There are many custom ROMs based on AOSP: GrapheneOS (for security against hacking and confiscation), LineageOS and its descendants /e/OS, iodéOS, and crDroid, etc. CalyxOS is not doing well right now, but it should be back in a few months.
Make sure you can relock the bootloader after installing to protect against attacks through the USB connector.
Murena ships /e/OS preinstalled on the European Fairphone and Shiftphone. Iodé similarly.
Then there’s Volla phone which can have Linux (Ubuntu Touch) and and VollaOS (AOSP-based) on the same phone. There are other Linux phones, but nobody recommends them for normal consumers.
I can’t wait for “linux phones”, I bet it’s going to be “great”!
what are you implying?
That it’s not “optimal” to use quotation “marks”. What do you “think”?
You’re misreading that “Linux phone” panel.
LInUx IsNt ReAdY
@TrickDacy @DrDystopia Try #FLX1s from @furilabs
It’s less that Apple cares about privacy, and more that it’s easier for them to control within a walled garden. If you control all of the levers, the rest naturally falls into place. That doesn’t mean it’s better; it’s just different.
Apple is secure in the same way a prison is secure. It is great at stopping attackers from entering but also great at stopping you from getting out if you don’t do it the approved way.
It’s even more than that. They don’t want the liability of responsibility handling/securing your data in the event their systems are breached.
I used to work for a company that did a lot of business with Apple and have friends who have worked at Apple proper, they’re paranoid about mishandling sensitive data.
Yeah I find it hilarious that anyone thinks apple cares about privacy. They clearly have been cultivating that image but it rings pretty hollow to me. They just chose something that would be easy to say they care about that an ad company clearly also doesn’t care about.
They care about privacy as they consider themselves the owner of your data.
Like all of this is untrue? You can have you iPhone or whatever at to encrypt shit locally and Apple has no ownership of the data? This obviously comes with tradeoffs, but people are so effing uninformed and apparently riding the dick of google as hard as they can.
It’s better than that. Encryption is always enabled for anything stored on icloud. Like you can’t turn it off
Yes, but normally Apple has keys to that, you can enable further encryption, so you own your own keys. This has some additional considerations, but if you want to make is very very hard for anyone to access your data, that’s what you do. Or I guess get an android and load in to google cliud, I’m sure that will be fine!
I’m so so so so soooooooo over the what phone do you have debate, and now apparently we’ve entered a new one where people who seemingly don’t know anything are making trash memes. Joy.
Meanwhile the rest of the world is a burning pile of shit. Congrats, ‘dumb’ phone people and whoever else thinks they are hot shit. You’re not, and this is all pointless.
Apple has the keys though I less you use advanced data protection.
