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Talk to your manager.
Shortly after I was hired, my manager told me I should feel free to decline any meeting that didn’t seem useful, or that if it was preventing me from getting “real” work done.
Or just ask the person organizing the meeting.
“I saw you added me to a meeting tomorrow. Can you provide a bit of context so I can come prepared?”
you want me on the call, I’m there.
don’t complain when I don’t deliver on goals though.
I usually join the meeting and start asking a lots of questions and clarifications because I don’t know what the stuff is about. After that, the amount of useless meeting requests drops like a rock.
Fluent companyspeech
It’s just being highly effective at applying peer to peer team interaction synergistics skills.
Depends also if they include you so they don’t make dumb decisions. If they are capable of doing stuff on their own great. If they are habitually doing shit without asking you even just a question (and make every little thing into a meeting which is about just managing their decision making) it’s kind of always mandatory just to be there to save them from themselves and from taking decisions away from you.
I don’t know why it’s so hard to say ‘hey can we just grab you for a moment’ instead of and either or hour long meeting making you sit through it just to get to you about something either mildly so unimportant you didnt need you or they destroy the project
“What is the purpose of this meeting and why do I need to be included” is a perfectly polite series of words to use. The wording matters far less than the tone of voice.
I vastly prefer clear and direct questions over the reply that sounds passive aggressive from the very beginning.
Yep, clear & direct is kindness.
I like to insist on basic standards: “Please provide an agenda that explains why we’re needed. Otherwise, I’ll have to turn down this meeting. Thanks.” and reply all. Often, others will agree the lack of written preparation is a problem & follow that lead.
If the agenda is simple & clear enough, I’ll just answer in writing so we can cancel the meeting.
I wouldn’t say “perfectly” polite, but it’s definitely not offensive.
The response in the OP definitely doesn’t need further tonal clarification, though. It’s tough for anyone to classify that response as hostile.
I think you underestimate how thin the skin of the professional managerial class is. It’s not about the tone of voice it’s about the directness and how that’s facilitating “conflict”.
Don’t find that’s true at all. Direct language is much preferred to this bullshit.
I do understand and it does not matter how you phrase it for those types of people. Pretending that it could have been said the ‘right’ way is a waste of time because, as you said, they consider even asking to be facilitating conflict.
There are also good managers out there, they just aren’t as memorable as the ones who make everything into drama. The good ones also tend to be driven to other jobs because of the jerk managers…
“why do I need to be included” sounds a bit harsh and could be met with “because I said so”. instead maybe try something along the lines of “how will this meeting benefit my work?” or “how might I contribute?”
Meetings are the viable alternative to work. Meetings that you don’t need to contribute to are even better. Take a break. Catch some zees.
yeah what the fuck; when you’re asked to do nothing on company time, you take it!
go to meetings to avoid other meetings
I go to meetings so I don’t have to work
I’m in a meeting right now. Yeah, I don’t have anything to contribute to it, so I’m browsing.
It’s meetings all the way down. And if they make you watch training videos…
I’m going to need to pull you into a meeting real quick so we can discuss this attitude.
That’s how I look at it. You want to pay me to go to a meeting that could’ve been an email? Ok! Bet!
Problem is, that the work is still there after the meeting
This is definitely a difference between people that believe the work they do is important and people just punching a clock.
I teach at a community college (salaried) and my partner works as staff in the same school (hourly). She works her ass off, but when she gets to the end of the day, she is done and leaves work at the office, so attending meetings is no big deal to her. Meanwhile, I’ve gotten involved enough in peripheral committee work that I regularly stay up working until 1AM because there are literally not enough hours in the day to get done what needs to get done. I could try to leave work at work, but I’d be hanging students and fellow instructors out to dry, so that’s not always an option.
I could try to leave work at work, but I’d be hanging students and fellow instructors out to dry, so that’s not always an option.
Not your problem that your college hasn’t decided to fund enough positions to get things done within the workday.
It’s not my fault, but it is definitely my problem if I’m in a position to help people and decide not to. Make no mistake, I raise holy hell while I’m doing it, but the lack of workers doesn’t lessen the amount of work that needs to get done. Maybe it’s just naivete, but I’m idealistic enough to believe that helping students is the most important thing I can do, so I only say yes to things that are directly helping student, faculty, and staff (admin and their busy work can fuck right off with their bloated salaries and support staff)
Never do more than what is in your contract.
It is not like the company is going to pay you more than what is written in there. So why should you compensate when they clearly wouldn’t?
It is not your job to get everything done. But it is their job to make sure there are enough people for the work available.
One thing I’ve learned is that sometimes you need to let the problems happen. You can raise hell and keep talking about how more hands are needed, but unless issues actually start coming up and affecting people, then no one is going to care/listen.
I had a job in the past that was vastly understaffed. I kept getting more and more, and working longer hours. I brought this up with management many times but nothing was happening. “Not in the budget to hire more” is what I kept getting.
When it got to be too much, I decided I would only work 40 hours, and whatever happens, happens. Our lives are too short to be wasted away at work.
So tasks started to take longer, and whenever something needed doing, it was added to the queue and prioritized appropriately. Sometimes that meant I couldn’t get to it in weeks. At first, I came under fire. “Why haven’t you done this yet??” But each time I explained my situation. “There’s not enough hands and I am doing the best I can with the resources given to me”. And guess what? Most people empathized and understood my predicament. So now I have an army of colleagues who understand the issue here, and now the issue gets more visibility with management as more people rally to my side.
A few months of this, and they decide to hire two more positions to help with the overload of work.
It’s a risky move for sure. They could just fire you and dig themselves into a deeper hole. But then if they do that, is that really the type of environment you’d want to work in anyway?
People are surprisingly understanding when you explain yourself. You don’t need to fix everything and everyone’s problems. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to let the problems happen and observe how others deal with it.
The biggest part of the issue in state-run higher-ed is the glacial pace at which hiring happens vs. how fast the works shows up. My organization is legitimately trying to hire appropriately (I believe), but we can’t allocate resources until the students show up, and then it’s an 18 month turn around between filing a faculty hiring request and the person starting work due to the standard academic hiring cycle and state-mandated EEO requirements (and that’s assuming that admin approve the hiring request the first time you ask for it, which they do as often as they can). On the other hand, it only takes 2 weeks for people to resign and move on, so we’re losing people as fast as we can hire them. We could to try to hire faster, but it’s a tiny school with a tiny HR (so we’re capped at hiring about 4-5 faculty positions per year) and a small number of faculty (so it’s hard getting enough people to volunteer when you need to fill a hiring committee).
Honestly, I really like the organization and think admin are making good choices, but we legally can’t turn students away, so when more people enroll, there’s more work with the same number of workers for at least a year. It’s honestly a good problem to have, and they do a decent job at compensating me for my extra work, but I’d rather have more help and less OT as soon as we can manage it.
All that said, working in private industry or in an organization that doesn’t have as many restrictions, I would absolutely be saying “no” a lot more. As it is, when I say no, it’s my colleagues and the students that feel the repercussions, not admin, and I have a hard time being OK with that.
The phrase ‘act your wage’ springs to mind. I realised you probably care deeply about the students, but it sounds like you need to care a little bit more deeply about yourself and stop letting them exploit you. Understaffing is management’s problem, not yours.
This is very true. The manager is also overworked and busy, and they hear complaints all the time from people. People are very different, some complain all the time for nothing, while others stay silent why their back is on fire. It takes a long time to get to know somebody, so you can confidently tell. But if issues start showing up, they know there is a real problem, and they can allocate resources to fix it.
Badass. Great job!!! Self advocacy can be so powerful with a little luck
The university is exploiting your idealism to get you to work without being paid enough. You aren’t “in a position to help people”, you are doing a job for an organization with revenues. They could allocate more revenue to accomplish this work without forcing you to work until 1 AM, but they have made the choice that the work is not worth paying for.
That being said, most good people will go the extra mile if they think it can make a difference, but I see too many who take full responsibility on themselves and “cover” for financially-motivated organizational decisions, which in turn encourages the people who make those decisions to cut even more.
Are you paid by how much work you get done or by the hour?
paid by the hour, fired for not getting the work done
See, now you’re talking hourly versus salary. That’s why if the meeting is bullshit, I peace out.
So? Not your fault you had to go to a pointless meeting. Leave at the normal time.
Yeah I’ll tell that to HR when I’m getting laid off again, I’m sure they will totally get it and reconsider
If HR can’t understand that, then it isn’t a decent work environment to begin with.
You can always try to explain it by calculating the cost of you sitting uselessly in meetings. Your hourly wage X amount of hours in meetings. I’m sure they will take your side.
Unemployed or self employed?
What if you enjoy your work and find value in it; and the meeting is pointless bullshit that just breaks your focus?
Do whatever your want, mate. Decline the meeting?
I think OP’s screenshot is tactful and effective. It’s similar to my approach. Which starts:
“Thanks for the invitation, what’s on the agenda?”
Then I decide to accept or politely decline and ask for minutes.
Someone after my own heart.
This is all well and good as long as you’re not that one person who has to actually generate deliverables.
Tf am I doing here?
Sometimes it’s “because you’ll be paid for your time and your boss wants you on the call”.
There’s one weekly meeting that I’m in where my only contribution is to notice when we’re out of stuff to discuss but no one is wrapping up. I unmute and ask, “Ok, so can we wrap?”
I don’t understand why six other people just sit there saying nothing without ending it. I’ve got other shit to do. Don’t they?
They are all afraid the manager will perceive them negatively for it, also why doesn’t your team lead / manager take the call about wrapping up the meeting
do you need my presence here
Are you not entertained?
Sounds like you were summoned by ouija board.
I’m sorry, is this some corposhittery I can’t relate to due to me being an enlightened SME-guy? (My salary is 3 months past due because of the company’s financial struggle)
Fluent in corporate speech 101.
Seriously is there a class I can take, because it’s like I’m speaking an alternate language at work and no one there understands what I’m saying
You are asking the wrong dude here. I failed at corporate speech, never understood their art of assimilation. It is all about not offending anyone, overstepping, never throwing anyone under the bus, especially higher management, and yet dodging bullets coming your way. It is also the biggest waste of time, usually. Got to give the upper management, the glorified babysitters, something to do.
I honestly can’t agree with you more
I think “What is the purpose of this meeting and why am I being included” is almost polite as-is, but “why am I being included” sounds a little rude. Maybe “what is the purpose of this meeting and is my presence needed?” Maybe “beneficial” instead of “needed” depending on who exactly you’re emailing.
If you ask the person who invited you to a meeting “is my presence beneficial” they’re going to answer “yes”. That’s why they invited you.
The purpose is to figure out whether your presence is actually needed, not whether they think it is.
I do like a lot of your ideas though, I might suggest:
“What is this meeting about? I’m trying to figure out if my presence would be beneficial.”
That way you are the determinant of whether your presence is necessary, and the other person has to articulate what the actual benefit would be as opposed to just saying “yes”.
If someone sends me a one word reply of “yes” to “what is the purpose of this meeting and is my presence beneficial” then it wouldn’t matter what I asked lol. They’re clearly on auto pilot. I’d probably add my manager and see what they say
If someone sends me a one word reply of “yes” to “what is the purpose of this meeting and is my presence beneficial” then it wouldn’t matter what I asked lol.
lol
But just to reiterate the point I was making earlier, the idea is to avoid someone responding to “what is the purpose of this meeting and is my presence beneficial” with something along the lines of “the purpose is to discuss X, Y, and Z. Yes your input would be a big help thanks.”
Curious on your thoughts on the suggestion I made and whether it improves communication or not?
I had a situation like this where I’d like to be involved in the meeting that I was requested and they thought I was required to be in. I’m a just barely above entry level employee and was told by my supervisor that I should not be attending the meetings anyhow the request is coming from project managers.
Finally get pinged in a meeting chat asking where I was and told them I was informed I should not be attending these moving forward. The project manager asked if this input came from a director that is 5 levels above me. I told them no, it came from my supervisor, if you need me, I will attend the meeting however I’m not sure if my input would be the information you are looking for.
2 months later, still getting required meeting invites but told by my supervisor to not accept it.
