Now tally up all the people in capitalist countries who were “relieved from extreme poverty” during their industrialisation period. And did so without causing massive famines because they had a wierd hate-boner for sparrows.
All those people who were “relieved from extreme poverty” in such settler nations chose to do so on the backs of indentured servants who are not counted in your statistics, as white men tended to often exclude in consideration when formulating convincing metrics to justify their behavior.
capitalist countries who were “relieved from extreme poverty” during their industrialisation period
Uh… Have you opened a book in your life at any point? Have you ever heard of these things called “British Empire”, “Portuguese Empire”, “Spanish Empire”, “Colonial Africa”, or “British Raj”? How about child labour in Britain during industrial development? Bengal famine, Irish potato famine, genocide of Latin Americas, slave trade… The list of actually enforced hunger and genocide is absolutely endless, and much more harrowing than the consequence of (admittedly disastrous) uninformed ecological policy in the mid-20th century.
Ends the justify means thinking. “why improve the process or experience, when my way already works far better than simply stomping on them to get them to open up?”
“because the taste of shoe doesn’t pair well with many flavors”
“My way has 85% less shoe licking”
“Ok, I can think of at least 3 ways you could remove the shoe entirely and it would almost certainly still work (unless of course people intentionally misuse the tools required for the solution)”
“You just want to go back to stomping on them, don’t you!”
If you lack scientific understanding of the material world, or you are wanting to use cynicism and disregard as proof, just say so.
Yes, industrialisation is what lifts people from poverty, that’s exactly why the West has prevented the almost entirety of Africa, South America and Southeast Asia from industrializing, and the greatest industrial developments in the previous century (other than US-sponsored military bases like South Korea or Japan) have happened in, you guessed it, communist countries, whether we refer to the heavy industrialisation of USSR under state-planned economy or the industrialisation of China through Dengism and the attraction of international capital investment. Why didn’t Peru industrialise too? Why didn’t Philippines? Why didn’t Zambia? You’re talking of industrialisation of the West and imperialism as two isolated phenomena, when they’re very much not.
Also are you going talk about Soviet invasion and genocide in eastern Europe
You mean when the Soviets lost 27 million people in order to save Europe from Nazism? We can talk about that, yes
I mean yeah capitalism and imperialism go hand in hand.
But you’re willfully ignoring when “communist” countries do the same. Do you think the soviet oppression of eastern Europe is fundamentally different than the European oppression of Africa
And no, I’m talking about ww2, I’m talk about Holodomor and the Great Chinese Famine. I’m sure you’ll try and find excuses for them like a capitalist would for the bengal or Irish famines.
Do you think the soviet oppression of eastern Europe is fundamentally different than the European oppression of Africa
If you don’t think they’re fundamentally different it means you’re not what you’re talking about. To this day, university students in Morocco and Algeria study in French, ask a Polish graduate from the 70s what language they used in university.
Look at the material exports not just during the colonial era but today in countries like Burkina Faso, whose 70% of exports are precious metals and 80% of exports go to Switzerland, and compare that to the Soviet Union providing raw goods and fossil fuels at international market prices to countries in the COMECON and importing manufactured, high value-added goods therefore subjecting itself to the short end of the stick of unequal exchange and mercantilism, in an effort to subsidise the industrialisation of said countries.
Look at educational outcomes, life expectancy, working rights in Communist Estonia and compare them to the Belgian Congo genocide or to Spanish invasion of Morocco and the status of moroccan citizens in occupied zones.
The Soviet Union was forced to sacrifice 27 mullion human lives in the war against Nazism, and it successfully rid Eastern Europe of it, saving it from being a German colony subjected to genocide and extermination, slavery, de-industrialization and resource exploitation, and instead industrialised its entire area of influence, eliminated landlords and serfdom, instituted huge unions, and did this all without resorting to the exploitation of people in the Global South. Come on, find a 60 year-old person from the Baltics or from Eastern Europe and ask them about worker rights, healthcare, education, pensions or access to housing during communism. And now go to fucking Libya and ask the same to someone who endured Italian colonisation.
Oh yeah I’m sure the Polish people are so glad the soviets “saved them from Nazism” after they struck a deal with hitler and invaded their country together. And I’m sure they were even more greatful when the soviet soldiers rated their way through Poland on their way to Berlin.
I’m sure the Ukrainians appreciate the Russians brutally suppressing their independence, forcing them to die en mass against the Nazis, often times not even being armed and sent to the front lines, then having their natural resources stripped, opressed and subject to genocide.
And it’s frankly beyond telling you refuse to even acknowledge my points about Holodomor, because doing so would mean you either have to acknowledge the atrocities committed by the soviets, or go full nutjob conspiracy theorist on it to deny it happened or try and claim it wasn’t actually the soviets fault.
And as for your points about standards of counties, you only have to look at Germany. Wasters Germany still feels the effects of soviet oppression to this day, it’s falls behind the west of thr country in almost every metric. Lookup the Brehznev doctrine that the soviets used to retroactively justify it’s invasion of Czechoslovakia and their policy of “Russofication” which to anyone with eyes is blatant cultural imperialism. There deportations of multiple ethnic groups to wastelands in the east of Russia in order to cleanse those areas and replace them with ethnic Russians while also getting a defacto slave work force.
Now tally up all the people in capitalist countries who were “relieved from extreme poverty” during their industrialisation period. And did so without causing massive famines because they had a wierd hate-boner for sparrows.
All those people who were “relieved from extreme poverty” in such settler nations chose to do so on the backs of indentured servants who are not counted in your statistics, as white men tended to often exclude in consideration when formulating convincing metrics to justify their behavior.
Cool, ask the Ukrainians about how they were treated under the soviets or ask minorities in China how the great leap forward went.
Uh… Have you opened a book in your life at any point? Have you ever heard of these things called “British Empire”, “Portuguese Empire”, “Spanish Empire”, “Colonial Africa”, or “British Raj”? How about child labour in Britain during industrial development? Bengal famine, Irish potato famine, genocide of Latin Americas, slave trade… The list of actually enforced hunger and genocide is absolutely endless, and much more harrowing than the consequence of (admittedly disastrous) uninformed ecological policy in the mid-20th century.
God you’re so fucking stupid.
The point is industrialisation is what lifts people out of poverty. You pointing out imperialism is bad doesn’t change that, does it?
Also are you going talk about Soviet invasion and genocide in eastern Europe or Chinese manufactured famines and child labour?
Ends the justify means thinking. “why improve the process or experience, when my way already works far better than simply stomping on them to get them to open up?”
“because the taste of shoe doesn’t pair well with many flavors”
“My way has 85% less shoe licking”
“Ok, I can think of at least 3 ways you could remove the shoe entirely and it would almost certainly still work (unless of course people intentionally misuse the tools required for the solution)”
“You just want to go back to stomping on them, don’t you!”
If you lack scientific understanding of the material world, or you are wanting to use cynicism and disregard as proof, just say so.
I genuinely can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or not, because this seems like a good argument against tankies to me.
You’re so close to understanding the concept of hypocrisy. Keep going. You’ll get there.
Don’t argue with tankies. Making fun of them is very much enough.
Yes, industrialisation is what lifts people from poverty, that’s exactly why the West has prevented the almost entirety of Africa, South America and Southeast Asia from industrializing, and the greatest industrial developments in the previous century (other than US-sponsored military bases like South Korea or Japan) have happened in, you guessed it, communist countries, whether we refer to the heavy industrialisation of USSR under state-planned economy or the industrialisation of China through Dengism and the attraction of international capital investment. Why didn’t Peru industrialise too? Why didn’t Philippines? Why didn’t Zambia? You’re talking of industrialisation of the West and imperialism as two isolated phenomena, when they’re very much not.
You mean when the Soviets lost 27 million people in order to save Europe from Nazism? We can talk about that, yes
I mean yeah capitalism and imperialism go hand in hand.
But you’re willfully ignoring when “communist” countries do the same. Do you think the soviet oppression of eastern Europe is fundamentally different than the European oppression of Africa
And no, I’m talking about ww2, I’m talk about Holodomor and the Great Chinese Famine. I’m sure you’ll try and find excuses for them like a capitalist would for the bengal or Irish famines.
If you don’t think they’re fundamentally different it means you’re not what you’re talking about. To this day, university students in Morocco and Algeria study in French, ask a Polish graduate from the 70s what language they used in university.
Look at the material exports not just during the colonial era but today in countries like Burkina Faso, whose 70% of exports are precious metals and 80% of exports go to Switzerland, and compare that to the Soviet Union providing raw goods and fossil fuels at international market prices to countries in the COMECON and importing manufactured, high value-added goods therefore subjecting itself to the short end of the stick of unequal exchange and mercantilism, in an effort to subsidise the industrialisation of said countries.
Look at educational outcomes, life expectancy, working rights in Communist Estonia and compare them to the Belgian Congo genocide or to Spanish invasion of Morocco and the status of moroccan citizens in occupied zones.
The Soviet Union was forced to sacrifice 27 mullion human lives in the war against Nazism, and it successfully rid Eastern Europe of it, saving it from being a German colony subjected to genocide and extermination, slavery, de-industrialization and resource exploitation, and instead industrialised its entire area of influence, eliminated landlords and serfdom, instituted huge unions, and did this all without resorting to the exploitation of people in the Global South. Come on, find a 60 year-old person from the Baltics or from Eastern Europe and ask them about worker rights, healthcare, education, pensions or access to housing during communism. And now go to fucking Libya and ask the same to someone who endured Italian colonisation.
You literally have no idea what you’re comparing.
Oh yeah I’m sure the Polish people are so glad the soviets “saved them from Nazism” after they struck a deal with hitler and invaded their country together. And I’m sure they were even more greatful when the soviet soldiers rated their way through Poland on their way to Berlin.
I’m sure the Ukrainians appreciate the Russians brutally suppressing their independence, forcing them to die en mass against the Nazis, often times not even being armed and sent to the front lines, then having their natural resources stripped, opressed and subject to genocide.
And it’s frankly beyond telling you refuse to even acknowledge my points about Holodomor, because doing so would mean you either have to acknowledge the atrocities committed by the soviets, or go full nutjob conspiracy theorist on it to deny it happened or try and claim it wasn’t actually the soviets fault.
And as for your points about standards of counties, you only have to look at Germany. Wasters Germany still feels the effects of soviet oppression to this day, it’s falls behind the west of thr country in almost every metric. Lookup the Brehznev doctrine that the soviets used to retroactively justify it’s invasion of Czechoslovakia and their policy of “Russofication” which to anyone with eyes is blatant cultural imperialism. There deportations of multiple ethnic groups to wastelands in the east of Russia in order to cleanse those areas and replace them with ethnic Russians while also getting a defacto slave work force.
I fucking hate tankies so much.