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“Violence is bad” statements are in the same vein as “stove is hot”. Both are told to children because they cannot properly gauge the consequeces of using it, but are naive and condescending when told to adults.
Violence is bad but sometimes it’s needed.
A hot stove has it’s uses as well.
Further reading: How Nonviolence Protects the State
I haven’t read it yet but I read another book by that author
There are entire Game Theory textbooks dedicated to grappling with the question of when and how one engages in violence. Because broadly speaking, violence is bad. The destructive social forces inhibit socio-economic development, degrade global quality of life, propagate disease, and cause catastrophic shortfalls of critical goods and services.
Whether you’re working at the micro-scale of domestic abuse or the macro-scale of the bombing of Hiroshima, you’re talking about a gross net negative for everyone involved.
But if a detente is one-sided, or a violent actor is free to act uninhibited, there are huge immediate rewards for looting and pillaging your neighbors, pressing ganging people into forced labor, and seizing neighboring property at gunpoint. It works great for perpetrators who engage in violence unchecked. Its only a problem when the perpetrator runs into a countervailing force.
But then over the long term, the violence takes an increasing toll. People don’t build in neighborhoods that they think will be bombed. They don’t invest in communities that are fracturing and falling apart. They don’t befriend people they feel they can’t trust or work alongside people they’re terrified of.
Go look at Yugoslavia before and after the wars of the 1990s. Huge unified economy capable of operating on par with France or Italy, only to be splintered by violence and reduced to a near-pre-industrial state for over a decade. Who won the Yugoslav Wars? Who benefited from Bosnians and Serbians and Albanians and Croats pounding their plowshares into swords and slaughtering one another?
People talk about a “Peace Dividend” and you can see it in any country that’s avoided a protracted military conflict for a generation or more. You can’t be a successful country if you’re always trying to hold one another at gunpoint.
The US is a successful country and has almost always been at war.
Britain at its peak was holding 10s of countries at gunpoint.
Violence works best if you are much much stronger than the other party.
The US is a successful country and has almost always been at war.
The areas of the US that are most successful are those most insulated from social conflict. Areas that are subjected to state violence through overpolicing or are left to flounder in the face of industrial abuse, mafia violence, or unchecked domestic violence do much worse. Comparing Ferguson, MO to neighboring St. Louis illustrates this dynamic. One neighborhood is alternately brutalized by the city police and left exposed to domestic crime, dragging its socio-economic state into the gutter. The other is judiciously policed and socially supported by state and private largess, resulting in a far healthier and happier population.
Britain at its peak was holding 10s of countries at gunpoint.
And those countries suffered immensely. Meanwhile, Britain itself endured pockets of chronic crime and substance abuse specifically in areas that hosted military bases and other enclaves. The country saw an explosion in wealth inequality during its economic peak with the new wealth almost entirely accruing to the aristocracy. Victorian England was a hellhole for the Dickensian proletariat.
Areas that are subjected to state violence through overpolicing
Chicken, egg
Both of those are just chicken, egg
Chicken, egg
The police trace their roots to military officers, cattle rustlers, and plantation overseers.
The conception of police-as-civil-servant intent on discouraging violence rather than initiating it is a relatively new one.
Very wise, you should reincarnate as a 2nd century Chinese warlord
China’s a great example of the Peace Dividend in action. You get a generation or two of peace and the country explodes with riches - both physical infrastructure and flowering culture.
Then warlords start poaching the wealth of the nation and the country plunges down into poverty, famine, and epidemic, immolating decades of social process.
After the burn out, you get a peaceful renaissance, and the country flowers again like a forest after a wildfire.
I really like your comment. Gave me lots to think about. I don’t have much to say in return, other than that, and that your comment is really well written. I don’t find many comments on here that are a pleasure to read; most long ones are incoherent rambling, or canned talking points.
Thanks for providing something for my brain to chew on and making it palatable.
Violence leads to counter-violence.
The only thing that will improve something is to put meaning into the world.
Your statement is too vague to convey an actionable suggestion. I’m intrigued by the thought you seem to be hinting at. Would you expand on this, include a recommended method, and reason about why it’s an alternative to violence?
I’m very tired and had a long day so I’ll keep it short:
A lot of people (myself included) have difficulty listening to authorities. But if i can see the deeper meaning and benefit of a rule, it’s easy for me to keep to it. That is what i mean by putting “meaning(ful rules) into the world”.
On the other hand, if somebody gives out commands without explaining the reasoning behind them, i will often complain, revolt or otherwise try to undermine the authority. That is what i mean by “violence leads to counterviolence”.
I hope that was clear enough.
Pacifism is only good for aggressors and cowards
Non-violence != Pacifism
A person can be an advocate for non-violence and not be a pacifist. No need to conflate the two, particularly when people have so much hate and vitriol for any perceived pacifism.
Arguably, accepting the necessity of occasional violent protest is more reasonable than giving up pacifism.
The answer is violence, but to advocate for peace in principle.
Peace and principle… or else
The answer is obviously codifying the position of power that violence granted you in a set of laws, hoping they won’t be challenged by further violence
Anyone who believes that violence doesn’t solve anything has clearly never paid attention.
Violence is not the answer.
Violence is more of a question.
“Do you want to be next? DO YOU?”
“Because you’re a rightfully pissed off woman who had her claim denied and spouted off over the phone, you will now be charged for using terroristic language against a poor, defenseless corporation and your bail is $100,000. But that dude who killed a homeless man on the NYC subway? Well, boys will be boys.”
And the answer is YES! GET THINE AXES KITH AND KIN! WE GOT A DUMBASS TO GO FUCK UP!
“Violence is not the answer” says country that won its place in the world through violence.
The historical record says that if violence isn’t working, you’re just not using enough of it.
The USA would still be a colony of Britain if it wasn’t for a violent revolution.
The USA would still be a native american land if millions of people had not been wiped out by Europeans
The Native Americans would have been much better off if they had simply strangled Columbus and all his crew the moment they made landfall…
I get the humor in what you say, but it’s worth noting that the Native American civilizations were collapsing due to disease brought by earlier European visitors by the time Columbus set sail.
Granted, history probably would’ve been largely the same if Columbus’ expeditions were unsuccessful, given the English, French, Dutch and Spanish appetites for empire building
There’s a saga that is about “what if Columbus arrived to America but never got back to Europe?”. It’s “the tale of the feathered serpent”.
That sounds super neat. When I google it I find these books amongst other more confused seeming results. Is that the right ones or is it something else?
Yeah, I found the same books, and they don’t seem like the right one.
You can say that about almost everywhere white explores showed up
And it’s true!
No it wouldn’t
History nerd here, can confirm.
For sane news, that covers important domestic and international news on a daily basis, look at PBS Newshour or Democracy Now on YouTube. Sane. Journalistic. Thoughtful.
Abandon the legacy billionaire media, but don’t abandon journalism.
Everyone knows violence isn’t the answer…its the question. And the answer is yes!
It’s a double edged sword, because people who you don’t agree with will resort to violence as well. Like the Taliban.
fall of the berlin wall…not a single shot was fired.
this sounds like a genZ meme
