ID: Drawing of a duck billed platypus underwater, they’re wearing a rainbow coloured t shirt and a pink bum-bag, and saying: “Ally is not something you can self-identify as, it’s a title that you earn. Let your actions speak for themselves!”
Credit: Sophie Labelle
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Wow, this thread had me bringing out the ban hammer a lot!
Yeah and judging by the modlog, pretty arbitrary. I was expecting transphobia or similar, but the banned people were just annoyed by OPs “smugness” and then ban reasons are “you’re not the victim” or “playing victim when told he has to earn allyship”??? These are not real reasons no? Im not suggesting a power trip but are you OPs aunt in need of defending them or what.
There is no space on this instance or its communities for “allies” who think the tone of queer folks comics is the real issue that needs to be talked about
Thank you so much for diving in to the cesspit, I knew there would be some push back, there always is, but I didn’t think it’d get this bad (and I have a lot of these people blocked already, so I can only imagine, because I’m not going to look, not today satan!). Sorry you have to spend your time dealing with the mess! 😩
Hmm, I wonder what I managed to accomplish in the womb
Before I realized and came out as bi, I was in the GSA (gay-straight alliance) in high school as a “straight.” My state was voting to ban gay marriage at the time, and we campaigned against it. I got just as much if not more hate from people than the LGBT members. Maybe because they viewed them as a lost cause? It was usually adults yelling at a 17-year-old kid for being a “betrayer” and a “pervert lover” (I liked that one), just because I supported two consenting adults marrying regardless of gender. Staunch allies definitely earn the title.
During the Afghan/Iraq wars if you were against the war you were"un-American, “stand behind our troops or stand in front of them” I don’t see those people supporting veterans now that those wars are over. They’re a bunch of mooks.
It’s kinda crazy how supporting war isn’t seen as a betrayal of veterans.
It was crazy because we had military recruiters in our highschool every day. I have a lot of friends from back then that joined. I just didn’t want my friends to die for what amounted to a money grab.
I agree with speaking with your actions here, but at the same time, this seems like some weirdly unnecessary gatekeeping.
If someone feels like this post (or any other boundary set by the people they claim to want to support) is keeping them from being an ally, they never were one in the first place.
Are you saying that everyone who disagrees with you personally isn’t an ally of the entire group?
I don’t think this post is keeping anyone from being an ally, it just kinda sounds like there is some authority that decides if you are an ally or not.
I think your core message is “don’t go around telling people you’re an ally, go BE an ally”, but it could be misinterpreted.
There IS an authority - it’s whatever group you’re claiming to help. They’re the ones who get to decide if you actually ARE helping or not, and it works like this for a bunch of honorary titles.
Absolutely unhinged
I’ll take that over being a piece of shit bigot… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If you’re not actually doing any allyship, in what sense are you an ally?
Theoretical allyship is irrelevant.
What is allyship to you?
Does one need to be overtly politically active or can one simply change minds in their social circles?
Must they sign petitions and call politicians or can they simply be a comforting or understanding shoulder to a marginalised person?
How much legwork is required to be an Ally? Is there a scorecard to keep in order to meet criteria?
Obviously, passive acceptance without any action isn’t explicit allyship but must one be openly militant about LGBT issues in order to be considered an ally?
Does the real answer not lie somewhere in between? Maybe on a spectrum or sliding scale?
The real answer is measured in how your actions have affected the lives of the people you claim to be an ally of.
No, this isn’t always practical to measure, but if someone is saying “I’m an ally because I identify as an ally”, I’m certain they have done absolutely nothing to protect/advance the rights of LGBT+ people.
So in your opinion indirect action may as well be inaction?
Say I have coworkers with certain opinions on gendering people, use of pronouns or who still use dated terms like “Tranny” or “Shemale”.
I spend my days correcting them when they misgender or reminding them of acceptable words to describe people. I have political discussions where we come to terms about how LGBT rights are human rights. They’ve corrected their behaviour and now speak of LGBT folks in a kinder light.
I don’t directly see how those actions affect LGBT folks. I don’t have tangible evidence I have made a person’s life better through my actions.
Am I an Ally or not?
No, indirect action is a form of action, stopping a transphobe from being transphobic is a form of allyship, because presumably, you’ve saved a trans person from feeling unsafe around that person.
Ok, so proclaiming yourself an ally doesn’t make you an ally, unless 1 person notices it?
I feel that someone noticing it is a part of “proclaiming”, but I agree with you. I do think you worded it rather strictly and awkwardly. Telling yourself that you’re an ally is worthless, telling someone else has value.
Because you stated that, on the presumption their actions prevented transphobia, that person would be an ally. But that presumption can only be fact checked by themselves anyway; Does this not mean then, that a person should have the right to label themselves an ally if they self-assess their actions as allyship?
Or does someone have to ally-check each of their actions once performed with some sort of… council or committee, as I have here?
It’s not that deep, we don’t need a rigorous philosophically consistent way to measure allyship.
Simply saying out loud you support it IS supporting it.
I mean, it’s the minimum amount, but thats more than none.
Posting is not praxis. You have affected nobody’s lives or material conditions through posting.
You affected my life by causing me to write this stupid comment proving your even stupider comment wrong. And now I’ve affected your life, because you’ve been confronted with your own faulty logic, and even if you don’t respond, you still thought about it and you can never not have.
That’s not true though. Posting/commenting radical thought is a role that helps. Sure, it’s not much, but it’s certainly not nothing.
When there’s an open investigation against me and I have to lay low for a while, it directly improves my life to have leftist content to enjoy, which in turn keeps me going so I can continue to improve the lives of others
Someone spending their time making a meme for a leftist community is also effectively making propaganda that I’ll later text to someone, which may further radicalize them, even if just by a little.
Marx himself literally said:
All social life is essentially practical. All the mysteries which lead theory towards mysticism find their rational solution in human praxis and in the comprehension of this praxis. (8th thesis)
Just because social media didn’t exist then doesn’t mean it doesn’t count now
Edit: also, within this specific context, it definitely can directly improve people’s lives to see allyship simply signified both in-person and online. It personally makes me feel safer, and that’s important
Hell, you don’t even need to be particularly active. Even telling your weird coworker that gay people are people too might help.
You don’t get applause for it, but it helps.
I’m not a person with a minority Sexual Orientation/Gender Identity, but here are my two cents: I think upvoting supportive content in a space that’s safe and welcoming to people with minority SOGIs is zero impact, online commenting in that same welcoming space is about as impactful as upvoting in a less welcoming space, both of which are directly adjacent to zero impact. I reckon that negatively reacting to an SOGI antagonist (eg the coworker you mentioned), is an appreciable act of allyship, more impact than a token gesture during Pride. I’m not sure if it would be higher or lower than an anonymous complaint to HR about discriminatory language.
Values guide action. Humans can use cognitive rules to exhibit entirely new behaviors in entirely new situations, behaviors that are consistent with the cognitive rules. Theory may not be relevant if the situation doesn’t activate the relevant neural networks, but if someone doesn’t have ‘ally values’ how do you think they will behave in the future?
I should have been more clear, I meant it’s irrelevant to whether one is an ally or not, because that is determined by practice.
Part of it may be identifying as an ally as a first step. If you internaliz “I am an ally” your future actions will probably more align with that identity. People like to be true to themselves, let them identify as good things without gatekeeping it.
OK, that person is on their way to becoming an ally.
There is still no physical difference in the world brought on by thoughts that exist only in their head. Theory without practice.
And your denying them any openness and acceptance as someone actively trying to become better, even in the smallest of steps, is denying said people reason to grow. Shit doesn’t happen overnight.
I think making it part of your identity rather than something you’re trying to get good at, like an exercise or craft you’ve never done before, makes people more likely to be defensive about the ways they’re not “perfect” allies.
I don’t think what you’re getting at is wrong, it could be helpful to some people to have something like that to tell themselves for motivation. Something like “I will do what I can to be an ally” or “I will be an ally today” might be better; it’s an aspirational thing that needs constant effort, like staying fit.
Which I realize isn’t super fun and sexy the way having a word to put in your social media profile is. But it’s an “any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king” situation, you know?
Counterpoint. Yes, it’s anecdotal, but the biggest success my mother has had in kicking her cigarette habit has been identifying herself as a non-smoker. She did that before cutting back at all, and now she’s from 35/day to 6. Every other attempt, she’s identified as a smoker trying to quit, and it’s failed.
Same theory - let them identify as what they want to be. Once they identify as such, the behavior will follow easier than if they’re saying “I’m trying to be an ally”.
Help us out though, what can we do to be better allies? I try to be a good one, but I don’t know if I’m coming up short.
To the kind of person that draws and publishes a gay platypus comic? As much performative kowtowing as possible knowing that nothing can ever be enough. Consistently voting against conservative bullshit and treating gay people like you’d treat anyone else your entire life certainly isn’t enough. It’s like how the Westboro Baptists don’t think you’re a real Christian unless you’re currently lighting a family planning center on fire. The people who are REALLY FUCKING INTO IT are mostly just making the moderates on their side look like puckered assholes.
Is it not about being as fair as you can? This is my approach at least .__.
Step 1: learn how to do your own work instead of expecting (or even demanding) marginalised people expend our time, energy, and emotional labour doing it for you.
This attitude is actually absurd
You’re doing everything you can to push well-meaning people away lol
Feels like dealing in absolutes to me.
You’re either all in or not in at all.
“If you don’t support the troops feel free to stand in front of them.”
Can’t I just be outspoken in my social circles and attempt to affect change at the lowest levels, thus spreading my message amongst people I can relate to?
Nope. Sign petitions and call politicians or you’re just a poser.
Or so this post seems to say.
If this is what it takes to push you away, it was never about being an ally in the first place, but about stroking your own ego.
This smug copypasta can be applied to any minority or marginalized group, but it’s still not helpful.
Intersectionalism is important because everyone has a different experience - to expect me to internalize their struggles by reading a book or watching a video essay is absurd. You need to tell your story, we need to give space and listen. Crossing your arms and saying “do your own research” is unproductive - a well meaning ‘normie’ who is not terminally online doesn’t know where to start, autodidacts almost always have terribly shallow knowledge pools.
You, the person living through your experience, are the subject matter expert - why reject that authority that people have granted you and shown that they are ready and willing to listen to you?
You need to tell your story, we need to give space and listen.
Lmfao, not how it works, labour digger.
Edit just to clarify: Millions of people have already written about their lived experience of oppression (as a disabled person, as a queer person, as a Black person, as a Muslim, as a Jew, as every. single. marginalised group out there), you people don’t get to demand a personalised education from every marginalised person you come across, we don’t owe you shit especially when you won’t even open a search engine and make the most basic effort to learn for yourself.
I guess I’ll stop trying to improve.
That‘s honestly a terribly broad question.
What are the people you are allies to telling you they want or are missing? Are you helping them in achieving what they want?
What are you doing for them besides that and do you think it is the right thing to do?
And yeah I don’t know, coming up short is a pretty loaded phrase. Some struggles we might still lose and still we have to fight regardless and relentlessly. And if you „fall short“ just try to do more, as well as the fact that we cannot all provide the same kind of support so its gonna be very personally biased either way
When you see someone being queerphobic, call them out. Tell them they’re wrong. And if they waste time arguing with you, that’s time they’re too busy to attack a queer person to their face.
This sentiment is pretty much why the progressive movement is fucked.
The right leans hard into meme warfare, using whatever propaganda opportunities they can.
Meanwhile the left has endless debates about the purity of their efforts.
We’re so fucked.
This isn’t about purity, but you tell yourself whatever you need to to avoid engaging in the mild discomfort of unlearning and challenging your privilege, existing bias, and the status quo, I guess… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is reinforcing their point though. The person you’re responding to almost certainly supports you unconditionally. But you’re at odds here because of a difference in experience/strife.
I recognize I have no horse in the race, but I do go out of my way to offer support. All I’m saying is your efforts are better spent fighting actual bigotry.
I recognize I have no horse in the race,
Then perhaps take the opportunity to sit down, shut up, and listen to those who do? Or are you convinced that your privilege makes you more informed than we are about our own situation and needs?
And you post things with titles such as ‘duck billed platypus’.
No, it’s right. You can’t form an alliance with somebody without their consent. If you want to be someone’s ally, they’re allowed to disagree.
I don’t like the “Ally” term. I don’t get it. Feminist thinks the equality of man and woman, but the existence of the ally term make a distinction into feminist and allys, that it’s just a genre thing. So you are saying there are no equality between male and famele at all.
Literally what are you even talking about
/u/Nexy is confused about the difference between a political view and an identity.
They are correct that there isn’t really a difference between being an ally of a political movement like Feminism and being a member of that movement (although I think that movements/organizations with different priorities can be allies with a movement like Feminism, e.g.) a person is either a Feminist or not a Feminist there’s nobody that’s an ally of Feminism.
But there is a difference between advocating for rights for people with minority Sexual Orientation and Gender Identities (SOGIs), and being a person that is 2SLGBTQI. If we had a word that encapsulated the movement like Feminism does then we wouldn’t need to tack on “ally”. SOGI-ism? Good luck.
I too am very confused and would like to know
I think they interpret “ally” to mean “male feminist”
yeah, that.
Judging by the rainbow shirt and where it’s been posted to (and the discussion on it), this isn’t about allie of women but allies LGBT.
Yeah, I figure it out pretty late. In my contry, ally its only used in femimist terms and not lgtbq+ ones, so I wasn’t aware.
Depending on who you ask, feminism includes the entire LGBTQIA+ spectrum.
For example, Hélène Cixous points out that there are ways of thinking that are rigid, hierarchical, limiting, and usually patriarchal. This way of thinking creates all sorts of barriers. “Men have to be like this.” “Women have to do this and be that.” “Transexuals? They have to not be like that.”
To break free from rigid and limiting thinking, Cixous proposes to “write from the body”. When you pay attention to your own experience, without rigid categories, you can be free. You can define your body in any way. You can act in any way. You can interpret the world in any way.
This, in Cixous’ view, is feminism. Feminism is about breaking down barriers and empowering people to be free. A woman can choose to work and buy property without being rejected. A man can choose to be vulnerable with his male friends without being rejected. A woman can choose to accept a woman as a partner and not be rejected. A transexual can choose to transition and not be rejected. A man can choose to not have sex and not be rejected. It is all valid. And it is all feminism. In this view, feminist terms and LGBTQIA+ terms serve exactly the same function: they all help break barriers and empower people to choose the lives that they want to choose.
ITT people are thinking this post is about them, but it feels like it’s more targeted at the “The A is for ally!” types. (Thinking A in LGBTQIA is for ally instead of asexual.)
Why not both? 🤷♀️
I feel like the two groups are close to a circle in a Venn diagram - privileged people there to make it about themselves (in the form of self aggrandization and claiming non-existent victimhood and marginalisation) rather than about the marginalised people they claim to support (and only do superficially and entirely conditionally).
Counterpoint: you can absolutely self identify as an Ally. For example, I self identity as an Ally and there ain’t shit this adorable platypus can do to stop me.
I’m an Ally because I choose to be, by my words and my actions and the example I set for my children every day. I don’t need an attaboy from any marginalized group to confirm I’m on the right side of history. We do what’s right because it’s right. Full stop.
While I agree with the sentiment, it’s like labelling yourself “a good neighbor” or a “best friend”. You don’t get to decide if you’re “a good neighbor” or not - your neighbors do. You don’t get to decide if you are someone’s best friend - they do. In the exact same way, you don’t get to decide if you’re an ally or not - the group that you’re allied with does.
You can strive to be a good person and identify with being one if that label has been given to you, but certain labels, including “ally”, aren’t ones you can just give yourself.
I can also respect OP and the artists point of view (if they’re not the same individual, not sure if OP is sharing an original piece or someone else’s work) but I just disagree that people don’t get to “be called Allies” unless someone else gives them that title. Being an ally to me is not an honorific, it’s a series of choices.
It’s a series of choices, but those choices can be misguided or wrong without maintaining communication with the group. It also easily slips into the “white savior” trope.
Imagine a person calling themselves a queer ally while actively protesting “LGB without the T”. They are absolutely NOT an ally to the queer community, but without checking in with queer people, they wouldn’t know. Queer people then have to argue with “an ally” to get them to understand why that rhetoric is harmful, which just puts everyone further back.
So, people can call themselves allies, but no one should believe it unless it’s been attributed to them by the group they’re allied with.
Drag thinks you’ve misunderstood the post. The post says you earn the title of ally through your actions. It doesn’t say you earn it through someone else’s actions. Your actions are your choices. Someone else calling you an ally isn’t your action, it’s theirs. So the post is not saying that queer people bestow the title on you, it’s saying you bestow it on yourself. By doing good things.
Centring yourself, talking over, and refusing to listen to the marginalised people whose side you claim to be on - the self identified ally personified!
Wtf? Lol
No one is in charge of how someone identifies except themselves.
Taking that idea and making it about how people can self-identify as allies regardless of their actions is incredibly distasteful.
So you’re saying that OP could choose to identify as your significant other, and it would be entirely OP’s decision with none of your input?
You keep being an ass to people and you won’t have to worry about anyone wanting to be your ally.
Genuinely impressive how ignorant and presumptive this reply is. I’m assuming you’re young and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are good here. It seems like you’ve had some bad experiences with bad faith allies in the past and if so, that sucks, and I’m sorry for that. But this is misplaced rage and your energy would probably be better spent elsewhere. I am not your enemy and I never will be.
Counterpoint: you can absolutely identify as a socialist. For example, the German Nazi party identified as Socialist and there aint shit you can do to stop them /s
also
by my words and actions and the example I set
he confused, but he got the spirit XD
Oooh there’s one for my bingo card. Comment to Nazis in one.
Who do you self identify as an ally of? France? Bosnia? Laos? Do you have a treaty?
I identify as ally cus I am gay and I think it is funny to exclaim “I’m just an ally” to my gay friends.
There definitely are queer folks who aren’t allies, though. The whole trans exclusionary LGB thing is an example.
Ah yes the famous title that floats over my head like in an MMO /s
Still, this is some weird gatekeeping. If I’m not an ally, I’m neutral, who cares
I’ve had people misgender me and try to convince me not to transition and then go claim to be trans allies because they don’t call people slurs and will say that killing trans people is bad if asked
That sucks. It’s bigotry and then gaslighting, and then on top of it all we’re somehow to blame for them being that way because we’re not eternally grateful and fawn all over them for reluctantly giving us the barest of bare minimum decency and respect, and therefor leave them no choice (in their eyes of course).
Taking actions to be an Ally has risks for folks in some places. Where I am LBGTQA+ support is the norm and doesn’t really need to be spoken and when it is I’ve never heard anyone in over 10 years say a negative thing.
I have online though seen folks who try to speak up in Allyship of someone else get taken down. Subjected to purity tests by folks in an LGBTQA+ supporting community. It felt like the same bi erasure I’ve experienced and the same transphobia I’ve seen from parts of the LG community in the 2000s. It’s like saying someone isn’t gay if they haven’t come out. All it does is lessen the crew.
LGBTQA+ shouldnt be treated as a club with a rainbow dress code. It should be the future default standpoint of all of humanity.
This kind of gatekeeping really pushes away potential allys. Probably not the best kind of rhetoric.
It only pushes away the “potential allies” who are unwilling to do anything to help queer people. Who aren’t allies.
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This attitude is why I generally only speak to my sister about trans stuff (she is trans); because even though I support the idea and want to learn more to be more supportive, a good chunk of the time I’ve been labeled a transphobe. It’s the one pattern I recognize with the community that irks me so much. The refusal to answer innocent questions about what shit is like for you, and assuming anyone who isn’t trans asking about trans stuff is a transphobe simply begging the question.
We will seemingly never earn the right to be allies so long as we are CIS.
Cis is a prefix, not an acronym, you don’t have to all caps it. And if you weren’t cis then you wouldn’t be an ally, you’d be part of the community; allies are cis by definition.
Try to understand that for most trans people, they encounter a shit ton of dishonest “questions” that are actually just ways for people to be transphobic . If 9 people punch you in the face after saying “knock knock,” you’d be telling the next person that says “knock knock” to fuck off, too.
There is also a non-zero chance that whatever you’re asking is a right wing talking point you’ve absorbed after it’s been laundered through various dog whistles. Which isn’t a personal flaw, right wing shit is prioritized by algorithms and media. Even trans people have to unlearn a lot of this shit. It’s even possible you just independently came up with similar phrasing or reasoning without realizing it had associations with right wing shit. But trans people just seeing your comment in isolation can’t know that.
Given the unprecedented existential threats to trans people going on right now in the US (likely where most of these people you’re talking to are from), maybe extend a little grace. On top of the general trauma of living as a scapegoat minority, many are losing or may soon lose health care and other rights. Expecting people to behave perfectly in the face of that is unrealistic.
I’m not saying don’t feel however you feel about it when someone blows up at you, just recognize the context of it.
I do also hate the dog whistle shit. You know how I end up learning what dog whistles exist? Because I say something some fucking neonazis co-opted without my knowledge and get assblasted for it because I tend not to hang around bigots to know their stupid lingo. 😠
Ignorant I may be; but the only hate I have is for hatemongers.
Ask drag as many questions as you like. Drag will answer in good faith, and if you say something that makes drag uncomfortable, drag will be specific and explain why drag is uncomfortable.
Most other trans people aren’t going to be patient with you, because you opened this conversation by assuming hostility from them. They’d rather answer the questions of someone who asks from a neutral or agreeable starting position. Drag will answer your questions anyway.
