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What is a man?! Nothing but a miserable pile of secrets. But enough talk… Have at you!
Geekandmisandry. Misandry ie. someone who hates men.
Well at least you’re open about it. Many aren’t when they attack men.
Here’s the thing about “toxic masculinity”. Some people are toxic. Women and men tend to express that toxicity in different ways. Attacking an entire gender for the behaviour of the worst is stereotyping.
More broadly it’s part of the modern notion that we are on teams and that the other team is bad.
Of course both men and women can be toxic. The point of toxic masculinity as a term is to draw attention to the fact that there’s a certain brand of toxicity that has much more harmful outcomes in male-dominated spaces, for a variety of social and cultural reasons. It tends to be a rather controversial term mostly because it gets conflated with the idea that masculinity itself is toxic (which is not what it’s supposed to mean).
The discussion should be about the magnitude of the problem, not hand-waving it away because women do it too but in different ways. The “different ways” is kind of the whole point of the argument.
Also, that’s a lot of extrapolation you did simply from a username in a screenshot. Would you describe any of their actual words in the post as misandrist?
I mean, it pretty clearly implies “feeling like a man” is only a bad thing. That “feeling like a man” can only be done in ways that make others feel inferior. That seems pretty misandrous. to me. Enough to call misandry right away? No. But between that and the name, they’re starting to set a theme.
I got the impression that it’s fine for a man to “feel like a man” but that that needs to be something he finds on his own terms, and needs to come from within. It’s not something he gets to impose upon others, such that it demands their cooperation or subordination. If to anyone, masculinity requires them being superior to others… maybe they need to do some soul searching.
Perhaps the user’s name does contribute to a theme. I don’t see anything specifically wrong with what was mentioned in this post, but we would need more context to determine who’s in the wrong, Reddit AITA style.
Just waiting for the day when someone can explain to me what makes a man a man without describing skills, qualities, and actions that anyone can do regardless of gender.
And don’t tell me it’s “have a penis”, because if that were true then effeminate men wouldn’t be insulted all the time for not being “real” men, and there wouldn’t be toxic masculinity.
Gender is a social construct that is, gladly, starting to fail.
I hope that in some years people would stop refering to having any gender, and they’ll just have the social behavior they’d like best when they like it best. And will only discuss their sex when it’s medically relevant.
Sadly unlikely because it’s rooted in biological differences (mainly hormones), so on average there will be sex-based differences. I’d love it if people stopped stereotyping because of that but I doubt itll ever happen. Maybe we can at least get rid of the idea of gendered hobbies and such, but even then most people want to identify as part of a group so there will likely always be some association.
I’m a man because I say I’m a man and fuck anyone who tells me otherwise.
And that applies to anyone with any gender. Because it’s not about anyone but that person.
Otherwise
Now fuck me please
I never said I would be doing the fucking.
A man is someone who identifies as a man.
Yes, it’s circular.
Same question for women. Gender is only useful insofar as we decide it is. We have an inherent nature to categorize and differentiate, and in some cases that makes a lot of sense, but outside of strictly biological facts, that distinction between genders is nebulous at best.
Like religion, gender identity is personal, even if it stems from society. No two people will share the same opinion, it’d probably be weird if they did, and as long as they’re not using their opinion as basis for fact, do whatever you want, man woman or anyone in between, outside, or around the spectrum.
Is this a real thing? I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered this. I suspect they’re actually being demeaning to men in general, or men who don’t fit their idea of masculinity. I’ve encountered people like that. Though the opposite is more common (men, and women, demeaning women who don’t fit their idea of what a woman should be like, or just demeaning women in general).
I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered this.
It very much is something you’ll find in advice columns for women.
I’ve never heard anyone say that phrase, is it possible that people use that expression to mean “a man likes to feel like a man… not a machine”? Ie he has thoughts, emotions, and priorities. He is not a commodity, his worth is more than just profit he can produce.
Not that women don’t also have those attributes, just that “man” is being used as an outdated shorthand for humanity.
I’m not sure how i feel about the post altogether. I mean, i understand that toxic masculinity is bad, but this post needs some assumptions and context to make me want to side with it. For example, if I saw some guy just kinda minding his business doing silly guy stuff and the context was he wants to “feel like a man,” i don’t think i would be offended or concerned?
r/justguysbeingdudes comes to mind
It probably is about feeling useful/needed. That’s what men are taught to measure their self-worth in.
I’ve heard this one before from my conservative grandma, It’s when a girl is doing something manly that the guy ““should”” be doing. Like if a girl is carrying in all the groceries while a guy is just watching someone would say “let [guy] do it, he’s supposed to feel like a man”
This came up a lot as my sister is very much a ‘do it yourself’ kinda gal whereas her (now ex) boyfriend wasn’t much of an initiative taker.
It’s not about a guy not doing manly things, it’s about stopping women from doing manly things.
(also note I’m using ‘manly’ in the stereotypical terms, not how I personally see them)“A man likes to feel like a man” is a good reason to allow trans men to get top surgery.
It’s hard to tell from the context, but it felt to me more like something a right-wing guy with really unrealistic expectations says to their soon to be ex-girlfriend (or possibly to the fiance in the marriage the church arranged) about how they need to be the one in charge.
Yeah I think we should believe that the witness correctly interpreted the meaning in the given context, but we shouldn’t assume that everyone that says it means it like that. It’s context dependant.
Just change King to also say man.
So a trans person saying that he is a man, is not a real man? Or more adapted to context, a trans person saying that he wants to feel like a man, is not a real man? and doesn’t deserve to feel like a man?
I don’t agree with that at all. Weird thing to upvote tbh.
This place can be supportive of trans rights and also downvote bad logic and arguments.
Trans men don’t “want to feel like a man”. They are trans specifically because they already feel like a man.
In addition, your comment was a total non sequitur. We were talking about the fragile egos of certain cis men, and you brought up trans men. And did so in a way that makes you look like you’re trying to be offended.
You seem like a good person. Please keep up the fight, but pick your battles a little more wisely.
The reason you’re getting downvoted is because you seem to be missing the point of the meme and then are getting argumentative.
What is the point of the meme? How is it not ridiculing/dismissing the desire of a man to feel manly? Something that rightfully usually finds support here for trans man.
Because it’s not ridiculing someone for feeling manly, it’s ridiculing the kind of person that goes around stating they’re manly as fuck all the time, going out of their way to show how manly they are and generally making “manliness” their entire personality.
Where does it say that?
The post in the picture, just completely dismiss any possibility other than a man wanting to feel superior.
That is the starting point, that is what I am talking about.
The comment in the picture provides us with a story and context but it is not the same story or context because it is a different user sharing their experience. I have no issue with that.
The reaction gif is implying that you aren’t a man if you express that you want to feel like one.
Where does it say that you say it says? Where does it state that it is about making it your entire personality? Where does it say, it is about people who want to show how manly they? Where does it state that they don’t like a man stating that they are so manly? It seems to be about the opposite. A man who struggles with feeling manly. Where does it state that it is something the person does all the time?
Some of these are inconsequential in some scenarios but all of them highlight how much you read in there that just is not present to justify toxic language and behavior.
The reaction gif is implying that you aren’t a man if you express that you want to feel like one.
Doesn’t say that anywhere on the gif
You are correct, technically it doesn’t. It is about kings, and the poster tells you to replace king with man.
Also technically it is saying that a trans person who tells you that they are a man, is not a real man. I mean trans men are men.
But I don’t think that is a fair reading of the text. But sure you can read the message that I call toxic, as a toxic message to men in general and especially towards trans men. I just don’t see where you want to go with that.
Alternatively, and admittedly, I am reading it in the context of the post in which it is about men expressing that they want to feel manly. Still toxic, and implicitly transphobic, but at least matching the post.
Why is it you’re allowed to infer things the meme doesn’t say but I’m not?
I’d say it’s rather that a trans person shouldn’t prove anything to anyone, same as cis. If they feel the need to prove, that’s likely because of influence of toxic gender standards
Well I don’t know where you read the proving part. it is about feeling like a gender, not proving that you are. If you want to change topics, sure, we can talk about a different topic. Do you like Chinese food?
Do you like Chinese food?
Yes, I do. I also do think that you were also reading what wasn’t in the thread starter’s post
It is the logical conclusion of comment. Trans men are men. Unless you want to argue that they aren’t. Or that the men in the comments were implied to be cis men and then want to argue that cis and trans people should be treated differently to each other and therefore a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t.
It is the logical conclusion of comment
No, why?
Trans men are men.
Yes. And to be men the don’t need to say that. Visibility is another thing, and in that regard one might argue that they need, but I think that increasing trans visibility is not the same as ‘I am man’ statements
Edit:
a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t
To this I would also say ‘No’, but I’m starting to guess, we have a very different views on what it is to ‘feel like a man’
Okay the post talks about “needing to feel like a man”. (I am ignoring The comment on the picture because that is not what my issue is. My issue is the general statement in the post of the “aunt” in the picture and The comment section here) The comment is a reaction gifs and I think you agree that maybe you shouldn’t take reaction gifs 100% literally without any adaption to the context. Here the context is men FEELING manly. So I think it is fair to understand it as “if you have to say that you want to feel manly, you aren’t”
In that context, you can’t remove looking like a man, or maybe doing stereotypical man stuff, or anything that makes that person feel manly. The questions are, of course, what the fuck do you need to feel manly? What causes you to say that? What are you requiring?
All Women need to submit to you? Well that is completely unreasonable and you are an idiot. Not wanting to have your living room painted in pink, rather reasonable.
I heavily reject the notion that you or me get to decide what makes someone feel manly. If it is something that would require something from someone else, Of course, there are reasonable requests and unreasonable requests. And you can reject to fulfill them, you can even mock them if you want, but they aren’t less of a man for wanting to feel like one and painting that desire with a broad brush like in aunt’s post is also pretty bad (and probably sexist)
Maybe we have a different view on what it is to feel like a man. But if that is the case, then tell me, why are we judging men for expressing that they want to feel like a man without asking them what the fuck they mean? Because we would mean different things, so why wouldn’t they mean something else than you or me?
Or maybe we are just sick and tired of fighting the world and don’t want that kind of drama at home with our partner.
I’m stumped at the simple task of trying to imagine what does imply to “feel like a man”.
I don’t know if it’s gotten better these days, but back in the 90’s “being a man” was more a definition of absence. Being a man was “not being a woman/girl.” This caused a couple years of real difficulty for me as a high school boy, since women were (finally) allowed to do all the “male” things, which ended up defining the male identity out of existence.
I feel like this perspective needs a bigger audience, since it explains a whole lot about the incel/alpha backlash, and the gender divide in U.S. politics.
You listen to Shania Twain’s hit Man! I Feel Like A Woman backwards
Women’s shirts and long skirts
One might consider a blouse and kilt at least somewhat manly
A guy wearing it properly wears it with no underwear, which given the temperatures up there in Scotland means he’s quite literally a man with cold hard balls.
100% guy here, real man feel is when others can rely on me, when I can help, that kind of stuff. Not “big car hurr durr bbq male superyorr” and the likes.
I agree with you, but there’s no reason bbq needs to catch these strays.
Even trucks are great if you’re using them to help people move stuff. No comment on the pavement princesses with bigger cabs than beds.
Pavement princess is getting added to the lexicon. That’s amazing.
When take your shirt off, you lift something real heavy, open a beer without a bottlecap opener, and high five somebody and it hurts then you should be activating all the correct masculine endorphin triggers. A lot of it comes as a response from high testosterone hormone levels.
Ask a transmasc person
A lot of it is centered around achievement and feeling useful, so building or fixing something, physical activity, being seen as a provider etc.
It’s why men with families etc take being made redundant quite badly, not being able to provide for your family can really make you feel like a failure.
That’s also because we teach people that romantic relationships cannot be friendships. If your partner is your best friend then you aren’t redundant, you’re a power team.
I’m talking about losing your job, just to be clear.
Oh I see, the same point applies though. A friend pumps you up, gets you back out there. What we learn though is the guy is weak and should be left.
FYI this isn’t a term Americans know. I was super confused when I moved to the UK and kept hearing it mostly because people being made redundant weren’t technically ‘being made redundant’, if anything they were already made redundant (or just no longer needed for some other reason, or no longer affordable) and were now suffering the consequences. Idk, weird phrase, I’m going to go look up the etymology now. To be fair I suppose ‘laid off’ is pretty weird too
Well that and not being able to put food on the table and a roof over their heads.
It’s not about feelings at that point, even if they still exist.
Imagine you know Rex-Kwan-Do and go home to Starla every night.
I’m stumped at the simple task of trying to imagine what does imply to “feel like a man”.
I feel like a man when I know I’ve met all of my responsibilities to myself and the ones I care about, and that I’ve moved the world even an infinitesimally small way forward to help the others in it. This means lending a hand or an ear to those that need it either with my labor or my mind (or many time both).
I hope others have something close to this definition, but realistically I don’t think its common.
I guess what confuses me about all of this is why these things are in any way manly?
Like being reliable and following through on your commitments. Is it masculine when someone who isn’t a man is like that?
Or if I’m told someone is manly, have I now learned that he is in fact dependable?
I don’t mean to try and excessively pick apart what you’re saying, it’s just something I’ve always really struggled with understanding. People always seem to say things that strike me as being ungendered character traits when they’re asked about their gender.
I mean yeah, they should probably be ungendered, but in our society they still do get gendered. A lot of expectation is placed on men to be the kind of hard-working person that will work a 50 hour week, put food on the table, be a perfect and present father to their children and a dependable rock for their partner while being perfectly in control of their emotions themselves (and don’t you even think about crying) and still have time to build a furnace and teach the eldest how to change a tire and have an active social life and work out and improve themselves and do all those other things that a normal person needs to do. It’s not good and it’s not right, and it’s not even what the OP was specifically talking about in the post, but that’s why you’ll see words like “strong”, “dependable”, “capable”, etc thrown around in this thread a lot, because men like to feel that way because it feels like they’ve achieved at least some part of the frankly impossible image that’s placed in young boy’s heads of what a man should be.
I appreciate your breakdown. In other words, what you’re saying is that a man’s feeling of manliness is most often rooted in how closely he resembles societal expectations.
I think it’s pretty much the most reasonable explanation. But it still strikes me that men generally do not themselves think about it in those terms, and in fact consider it to be inherently emasculating. Masculinity viewed through this lens in essence becomes an act of submission to an outside force, which stands in contrast to many evident directives of masculinity such as independence and inherent drive.
Indeed the OP touches on this, implying that masculinity simply must be secured from within, with brazen disregard for the way others perceive you.
So if it does really come down to matching expectations, then it seems to be, as you said, frankly impossible
That’s a good question. I think most of the traits described here also apply to women, but as always, we’re talking about overlapping Bell curves here. I think men derive their sense of self worth from things like strength, leadership and independence more so than women do on average. There’s also traditionally feminine traits men derive self worth from, like empathy, affection and devotion. The same is probably true for women; little of column A, little of column B.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, this is just how genders shake out on average, so the implication that a man shouldn’t like feeling like one kind of bothers me.
I guess what confuses me about all of this is why these things are in any way manly?
I don’t mean to try and excessively pick apart what you’re saying, it’s just something I’ve always really struggled with understanding. People always seem to say things that strike me as being ungendered character traits when they’re asked about their gender.
I think I see the issue you’re encountering with the perspective you’re communicating.
You’re looking for things that are exclusively masculine. Besides the role in physical biological reproduction, I don’t think there is anything exclusively masculine by that measure.
The traits I listed could absolutely apply to people that are not men. However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures not biological reproductive process abilities. If we distill that down further for this conversation, “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”. We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
Ergo, for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male, and would like to be seeing as being worthy of respect in society, then they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors, in my opinion, such as those I listed.
We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
I think this pretty much gets to the root of the friction I experience when this topic comes up. I wouldn’t mind digging into it.
You likely have already guessed that I would think of it this way, but isn’t it just that “good people are worthy of respect”? Because it seems to me like if you try hard to take care of your family and do right by others, you’re a good person deserving of respect.
You know what I mean? If there’s no need for the trait to be exclusively masculine, then why do we do it? Translate “manly” into “worthy of respect”, that is. Is there some benefit to thinking about it in terms of masculinity rather than just in terms of goodness?
However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures
they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors
Also, I do acknowledge this side of things. I wrote some thoughts about it in a reply to another comment in this thread, if you want to check that out. It’s an important point, and I don’t want you to think i’m just ignoring it. In summary, I think it’s kind of a bummer if in the end, manliness is just a tradition people feel compelled to participate in
You likely have already guessed that I would think of it this way, but isn’t it just that “good people are worthy of respect”? Because it seems to me like if you try hard to take care of your family and do right by others, you’re a good person deserving of respect.
You know what I mean? If there’s no need for the trait to be exclusively masculine, then why do we do it? Translate “manly” into “worthy of respect”, that is. Is there some benefit to thinking about it in terms of masculinity rather than just in terms of goodness?
You skipped the OTHER criteria I listed for being “manly” besides just “goodness”, that being: for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male.
However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures
they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors
Also, I do acknowledge this side of things. I wrote some thoughts about it in a reply to another comment in this thread, if you want to check that out. It’s an important point, and I don’t want you to think i’m just ignoring it. In summary, I think it’s kind of a bummer if in the end, manliness is just a tradition people feel compelled to participate in
I’m not sure, but I think you’re hearing the “man” in “manly” and assuming the opposite would “woman”, “gay”, or “enby”. Not the case. The opposite to “man” in this case is “boy”.
We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
I think this pretty much gets to the root of the friction I experience when this topic comes up. I wouldn’t mind digging into it.
Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society. Society has few expectations of responsibility for a “boy”. Responsibilities with weight go to those with maturity. Mature boys being men. Even the phrase “man up” usually means “to stand up and face the challenge instead of shying away”, or to take responsibility. A boy still be 40 years old if he doesn’t take up his adult responsibilities. At 40 years old he still wouldn’t be “manly”.
If you are taking exception with these phrases being associated with “man”, then your beef is really with the last 3000 or 4000 so years of history. The concepts of equality across genders and sexual orientation are relatively recent in the last 20-40 years. History doesn’t stop being history simply because we’ve evolved beyond some of our worst parts of it. We carry baggage for awhile as our language evolves to match our new values. Expecting language to change on a dime isn’t very realistic. We’ll need a few generations to die off and take this language with them.
man upboss up, gender neutral.man up boss upemotional-fortitude up, morer gender neutral.I like grow up, myself
Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society.
I’m not who you’re replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different? Maturity isn’t gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn’t gendered; heck you acknowledge that when you used the word “adult”, it’s right there in the language you used.
I’m not taking exception to thousands of years of history, because so many of the traits would still apply to both genders and aren’t about equality. Keep in mind that’s different than discussing gender roles which certainly have relevant history. But “taking care of your family” is a trait and women we expected to do that to. Just with different tasks. Same with being honest / honorable and just about any trait was practically speaking, non-gendered, but with gendered expressions of those traits.
I’d also say that if we don’t try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don’t immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change. The best day to have questioned a definition of masculinity that isn’t actually gender specific was thousands of years ago, the 2nd best day is today.
I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn’t lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I’m also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren’t actually gendered if dissected.
I’m not who you’re replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different?
You’re doing the same thing they did. You skipped the OTHER criteria I listed for being “manly” besides just “goodness”, that being: for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male.
Maturity isn’t gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn’t gendered
Agreed it isn’t, but for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male, there is a specific term for it: “manly”. Where did that come from? History.
With my explanation to that other poster, I’m more confused by your doubling down on it.
Here’s what I’m saying “With X,Y, and Z it equals ‘manly’”
You seem to be saying “Yes but if you remove X and Y, then why does the term ‘manly’ apply?”. I agree with you, it no longer does. You’re talking about something else at that point because you’ve removed characteristics that apply to the word “manly” so it no longer is that word.
I’d also say that if we don’t try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don’t immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change.
No argument from me there. However it will be up to the very young generations growing up right now to change this. All the rest of us have grown up in a world of old definitions of masculinity. We can reject those and adopt the words, but we can’t erase our knowledge of them. Most of the adult generations alive today will have to eventually die off for these ideas to disappear from our society.
I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn’t lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I’m also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren’t actually gendered if dissected.
I disagree. One of those specific traits is a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male. If that trait remains, it cannot be ungendered. If you remove that trait, you’re not talking about the word ‘manly’ anymore.
I agree with some of the other answers you’ve received, but I want to add one.
I think there’s a kind of impulsive confidence, and unmitigated determination that lets me put on shorts when it’s 20 degrees Fahrenheit out, then tells me to stay the course, and accept that I have entirely become cold, rather than merely passing by it.
As for what other people can do to help me feel that feeling, I have no idea. I do those things because of the way that I am. People have already tried encouraging or discouraging me, and it hasn’t changed how I prefer to dress (for example).
Being a stubborn old fool isn’t just a “man” trait 😜
But I suppose, being statistically more risk tolerant is a sign of being a man. Not sure if that nature, nurture, or both I’m not going to speculate. But we are where we are however we got here.
I for one, am amazed I’ve made it this many trips around the sun.
I have to feel that “a woman needs to feel like a woman” wouldn’t get a similar reaction.
I’m not so sure. If I went around standing at doors waiting for them to be opened for me, I think it might get laughed at.
I once got told off by a woman in The Netherlands (to were I had immigrated from my native Portugal) for holding the door open for her and had to explain that it wasn’t for her, it was because it made me feel good to be helpful and I did it for both men and women (if you’ve already gone to the trouble of openning the door, might as well keep it open for somebody who is just behind you).
I just found it funny how a cultural habit from somewhere else that wasn’t even gender specific got interpreted as macho posturing.
Lots of women do this, mostly very young ones with fresh naive boyfriends but its definitely not unheard of for a woman to act that way. Not that that excuses the men who behave like this also.
Traditionally, societal opionions of how a woman should be involved her making herself appealing to men before married and submissive to her husband afterwards.
I would even say that “a man needs to feel like a man” and “a woman needs to feel like a woman” are two sides of the same original coin - it’s just that in modern days the latter is frowned upon much more (though, sadly, a lot of people still go around with an interiorized version of it) than the former.
That sounds very TERF IMO, they’re also hated
It sounds like something terfs would say to explain why being a tradwife is good and desirable.
Why is that the direction you’re taking this? Have you not once noticed how women have a whole set of unspoken rules and shit that you gotta do to be part of their show?
That sort of could be interpreted as “a woman needs to know her place”.
Yeah, and they really need extreme effort to cater to. Maybe it just doesn’t come so naturally for me in the spectrum, but it feels like a whole awful game balancing act that exists to let the other person think they’re in charge.
A man likes to feel
likea manthats what i read it as lmaooooo
Strong people build others up. Weak people knock them down to feel big. You want to feel like a strong man? Protect others and be generous with your spirit.
You want to feel like a strong man? Protect others and be generous with your spirit.
Fucking this. Strong men—strong people—help others. Healthy or not, realistic or not, this is the message that’s been sold to us since time immemorial. The knight that slays the dragon and saves the kingdom. The alien that crash lands and moonlights as a superhero. The sled dog runs 261 miles to bring the medicine to a town beset by an epidemic.
Yes, sure, one can argue some romanticism (or propaganda) with any given example. But the overall message of heroism, of strength, is not one of selfishness or of “me and mine”.
Heroism is something we ought to focus more on as a culture in general. Doing things simply because they are right and protecting others who cannot protect themselves cannot be understated.
I think a challenge with “right” is that it is subjective. For example, there are people today who believe that doing what’s “right” entails doing things that hurt people, or deprive them of happiness, or even a future. Or, that doing what’s “right” means only helping your family or your friends or your church or your Elks club.
I would say heroism has plenty of cultural emphasis already, perhaps too much even. The prevalence of superhero movies, calling anyone who served in the military a hero, all of the nurses/caregivers/essential workers during covid: there are so many examples of loud proclamations of heroism in US/Anglo culture. It is clearly a value held by the vast majority of people.
I think instead we should be looking at the messages people are actually getting from all the hero worship, rather than what we think are the important take-aways. Things like exceptionalism, having strength to prevail against one’s enemies, making hard decisions for “the greater good”. Finding good stories to combat these potentially damaging and counterproductive ideas is where we should be focusing our cultural energies IMO, rather than more hero worship.
Semi-related, as this reminded me of a quote from Cary Grant:
I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be and I finally became that person. Or he became me.
This was then repurposed on Star Trek Strange New Worlds by chief engineer Pelia (from a species that lives several centuries):
Most heroes I’ve seen… are just pretending half the time. There’s this one guy I remember, he said to me, ‘I always pretended to be someone I wanted to be, until finally, I became that someone, or he became me.’
Hah, didn’t catch that when I saw the episode - Pelia knew Cary Grant!
LOL! Almost that exact phrase is what I use whenever my wife asks me why I’m peeing outside in my backyard instead of just going inside to the bathroom.
National trust is in favour of peeing in the garden. Can be good for some plants!
Just don’t cast shit on a man that’s had enough of it from his work or society. Sometimes we just want to feel human.
Every human wants to be treated humanely. This is not exclusive to men. Neither is having a rough time due to one’s job or society.
You’re making the all lives matter argument
Lol. Kay.
That holds true from all genders to all genders, it isn’t a uniquely “man” thing.
Yeah yeah all lives matter. This thread is about men tho.
As a biological male and someone who identifies as a man, it’s pretty weak, IMO, to need someone else to make you feel a particular way.
Are you in control of your feelings, or do you constantly need someone else to reinforce, or induce a feeling in you?
Personally, I’m in control of my feelings, and bluntly, nobody else has control over me. Neither for how I feel, or what I think/do; with the only exception to what I do being governed in part by legality. Eg. If I know a thing isn’t legal to do, then I won’t do that thing. Beyond the rule of law, I do, think, say, and feel, whatever, and however I want.
To me, having that much control over my own self is what makes me a person living in a free country. Anyone who does not have the ability, like I do, to think, feel, do, and love, whomever and, whatever they want, is someone who I want to support in gaining that right.
The idea of controlling your feelings seems laughable. If you have control they aren’t feelings, just thoughts. You cant really control thoughts either, just control what you do with them. Except we know that humans in general don’t have great control of our actions either. We just have to live in this comfortable little lie where we have control over ourselves despite all evidence to the contrary in order to maintain a remotely reasonable society, but it’s not real any more than your belief that you control your feelings.
While I don’t think anyone has complete control of their own emotions, I do think some measure of control is possible through manipulation of one’s own facial expression, posture, breathing & thought patterns.
Right you can hack your lizard brain with deep breathing to calm yourself down, but that seems like even more proof the you you think you are is only barely in charge of this mess we call a brain. If you can’t calm down you can trick your body into calming down which then calms “you” down. Personally I tend to think the you you are is just a verbal processing system that retroactively analyzes what the rest of your brain does. If the reaction is slow enough, you can sometimes take charge and we call that modicum of authority “self control”.
The whole microexpression thing, if valid, takes the facial expressions thing off the table.
Posture is…I guess controllable as a bulk coordinated muscle movement but tbh no clue why that’s relevant.
Personally I tend to think the you you are is just a verbal processing system that retroactively analyzes what the rest of your brain does.
I seem to remember reading that research of certain brain disorders has shown exactly that… Basically, without a functional corpus callosum, one side of your brain does something, then the other side (that had nothing to do with it) comes up with a reason why “it” did it.
There’s a saying that stuck with me: “feelings are never wrong”.
Your feelings are a fact of your continued human existence. Unless you’re a psychopath or sociopath (or whatever) and you literally don’t feel, your feelings simply are.
From there I determined that feelings can be inspired incorrectly from a given happenstance. While you may initially feel offended by something that is said, it’s neither necessary to continue being offended, nor is it necessary to always have that reaction to that given happenstance. Accepting yourself as you are is vitally important in restructuring who you want to be.
This is all borderline cognitive behavioural therapy. Training yourself to be the best version of you that you can be. I’ve been dabbling in CBT techniques for most of my life. I wasn’t aware that it was CBT when I started working on myself in this capacity, but I’ve recently learned that a lot of the techniques I’ve been using to better myself, and increase my agency and control over my own mind and emotions, is used in CBT.
I would agree that some thoughts are not controllable. We all get intrusive thoughts and impulses that we choose whether we want to act on them. Whether that action is to open your mouth and speak those thoughts aloud, or type them out, or to take action based on those thoughts.
The thoughts and actions you describe I understand to be system 1 thinking. Aka, thinking fast. There’s a great book on this called “thinking: fast and slow” which covers the ideas. Basically system 1 is your “fast” thinking, heuristic/instinctual/“muscle memory” systems. It’s your “knee jerk” reactions and your first thought on something. System 2 is your contemplative and analytical systems, aka, “thinking slow”. System 2 can educate system 1, which is how we form habits and “muscle memory”
System 1, we have little immediate control over since the majority of our sapience is fully embedded in system 2.
I would agree that there’s a nontrivial number of people going around under only the learned behaviors from system 1, and doing very little analysis of what’s happening by utilizing system 2.
This seems …um… naive. I love my wife and her opinion of me affects my feelings. And the more I care about my wife, the more I love her, the more her opinion of me matters. Humans are social creatures and we look for positive feedback from the people we care most about. To pretend like this doesn’t matter is silly.
I understand your point here.
People we care about should be people we care to make happy, and who we want to make us happy.
I’m speaking more about agency. I use my own agency to limit whose opinion can even move the needle to my emotions. I decide whether their comments are something I should “take to heart” or disregard as an outburst.
Personally I separate myself from most situations and emotional involvement and look at things from a neutral, logical standpoint before I allow myself and my own feelings to be affected by what may, or may not be said in the moment.
I don’t need anyone to do anything to make me feel happy, or like a man. I control that. I’m not going to blame anyone for how I feel.
If you don’t feel happy, or you don’t “feel like a man” (whatever that means to you), the answers to why you feel that way, or how you inspire those feelings in yourself are entirely within your power to control. You have agency over your feelings.
My SO, when she compliments me, makes me feel good, but I don’t need her to constantly placate me with compliments in order to feel valuable, appreciated, happy, or “like a man”.
It is emotionally healthy to look inward for happiness and satisfaction. Relying on the acceptance and platitudes from others to feel okay is codependent. I don’t understand why anyone would want to give their agency over their feelings and emotions, wholly and completely over to others.
People in general like receiving positive feedback. There is no need to assign feedback to gender roles.
I agree.
If I may ask, did you feel the need to post this because you felt that I was portraying the opposite, or are you building on the point?
I’m hoping it’s the latter, but if it’s the former, please tell me what I said that made you feel that way. I’m always trying to improve my communication.
And if i have to pretend that your ass looks good for you to feel good about your ass, your ass doesn’t look good.
Now let’s get past the idea that relationships don’t involve theater for our partner’s benefit.
