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…you shouldn’t have to respond in home hours regardless. Any time you spend on work during your life outside of contract is them stealing your labour.
many people who work from home have flexible work hours (they can decide if to work in the evening or morning) and so they need to be reachable at any time, even it it might be off hour
I have flexible hours. What it means is not that I’m reachable around the clock, but that I decide when I work and am reachable.
i wonder if this means you tell work ahead as to what time you’re reachable
Either this or there are defined “core hours” where everyone must be available.
Kinda. I set my office hours in outlook, so people see if I’m available. I mostly don’t actually work at unusual times. But I can, if necessary. What’s more important is that I don’t answer work calls outside my hours, unless it’s one specific co-worker or I know in advance that a certain thing may require my attention.
No. If they are expected to be reachable for 24 hours they need to be paid 24 for 24 hours
Many IT jobs require an on-call rotation. Even when not on call, an SME can be called in an emergency. Time spent on call-outs typically either pays overtime or gives comp time. The infrastructure has to keep running, that’s just how it is.
pays overtime or comp time
You’re very funny, great joke! 😭
I keep critical applications running at work that thousands depend on. While I was at a union convention, one of my apps broke. I had to login that day and fix it while going over the budget with other members.
This is how the IT world is. I’m the only person capable of maintaining it and I must be available if things go wrong. The show must go on.
Most IT positions are salary so this makes sense and is reasonable for critical systems. If you’re not salary, yikes.
After four years of work from home, since the beginning of the pandemic, we’ll soon have to start going back in once a week. I know, that’s a lot better than many people that have been forced into 5 days a week or similar bullshit, but it’s definitely one more day a week than I want to go in. DC area, too, so you know traffic is going to be a nightmare, as always.
I’d even be willing to go in quarterly or whatever for special meetings. But weekly? We’ve proven we can do this.
They’re pushing this whole “hybrid” working and “rethink how you work!” and “it’s all about teams!” But they didn’t require any sort of coordination on coming into the office for teams, or anything along those lines - it’s a free for all. So instead of sitting at home on a call, we’re going to be sitting in cubicles on phone calls. It doesn’t make any sense.
And even if they had decided teams should coordinate in-office days, my area in particular works with so many different teams that we’d still be remote for most of them. Or in the office every day, which would not go over very well.
But I’m sure the Popeye’s (fast food chicken place) across the street will welcome us back. The one that has survived over four years without us. No one I know has ever gone there.
We’re going to lose a bunch of people as a result. And hiring is a disaster that isn’t likely to be resolved any time soon. It’s gonna be a fun few years…
Counting down the days until I can retire. Unfortunately, there are too many, I’ll have to deal with this. Or find a completely remote job.
I know, that’s a lot better than many people that have been forced into 5 days a week or similar bullshit
I hope for your sake this isn’t just their first test followed by an escalating series of demands :-/
Ha, actually they played themselves on that front. I don’t want to get into all of the details, but basically there’s literally not enough space for all of us to be in on the same day. There used to be, but they shrank the footprint to save money.
Honestly I think the plan from our upper management was to allow a lot of full-time remote working, but that got killed by even higher up people. So, now we have this. I actually think our upper management isn’t really the bad guy on this one and are just trying to make the best of a bad situation, dealing with idiotic requirements coming from on high.
I also think there are some artificial factors keeping it at one day a week, for now. It might go up to two at some point in the future, but a lot can happen between now and then. And two days might start running into that space limitation again, and they won’t easily be able to expand the footprint - nor will they want to spend the money.
This is basically how I get new privileges at work…
Now if only I could convince them that I don’t have enough hours to do my job, while still being able to do enough of my job without getting fired…
No really they cut my hours and I’m still pissed about it.
If you sort by new, the last time it was posted in [email protected] was only 2 posts ago.
Dead internet theory?
I wouldn’t say that most things are bots. People often just repost things without looking at the place they post, or what the rules of that place are.
I guess it’s to be expected when most content on platforms these days is not entirely new and original but stripped from other places. It is interesting to see reposts on here, though, given that Lemmy’s population is so small. Then again, there’s likely lots of overlap in people’s interests here, considering that Lemmy isn’t as mass-centered as other contemporary social media platforms.
A previous job of mine wanted people in my team to volunteer for being on call overnight for a week at a time.
No-one did, so they forced us. I emailed all managers involved including HR I said that I would like to opt-out for various reasons like family, mental and physical health, and also that the pay was in no way adequate for what they wanted. Again they pushed, so I replied with I’ll do it but would be unavailable most afternoons and evenings with my kids and things they have on. That I also won’t be able to answer after going to sleep because I take my mental health very seriously and need quality sleep to function.
So the first night I slept peacefully as I normally do as I have my phone set to go to DND automatically. I got called in because I didn’t answer a call that came in last night, I asked when it was, about midnight, and said well that’s because I was asleep.
Go to the next 2 mangers up, say the same thing and they say that I need to answer. I explain the email stating that I would be unable to answer calls at many times including when asleep and how no-one replied with that being a problem. One of the managers was like, wait up, you flagged this; yup; can you send me the email chain; yup. Got removed and told I wouldn’t need to worry about doing it anymore.
It found a new job shortly after that.
Sounds like a 3rd world ultra capitalist creepy story. I grew up in center right 3rd world (Brazil) and that would make it a truthful but funny snectode.
Now I’m in center center 1st world (Australia) and we’ve got passed a law a few months ago to not bother employee for bullshit.
I though why did we fn need a law for that, then your story reminds me.
Yeah great law, really put the breaks on my old boss. He would email and call at like 10pm at night about shit.
Now I work for myself and can’t get away from my boss haba
Which is weird cause the savings in not comming in to center is a win for everyone.
But how am I supposed to control my workers if they work from home?
Lol same energy as How am I supposed to make sure my partner doesn’t cheat on me if I don’t GPS tag him?
Not the real estate the finance industry relies on for REITs, think of all those poor restaurants opened in downtown wherever. No nobody will eat there now rent payments are being missed and REITs are dipping. Uh oh
The corporate office I work at panicked because they were going to get reclassified as a “remote hub” for tax purposes, which would have reduced everyone’s pay. But I’d personally prefer to take the cut instead…
Doing home health was kinda instructive for me in this regard.
The only time you go to the office is to turn stuff in, do inservices/continuing education, or similar. But originally I would answer calls at weird hours because a patient would need coverage, otherwise they wouldn’t be calling.
And then the management spent way too much money buying into some Disney corporate policy thing (literally, they paid money to Disney for the program) that changed a ton of rules in bullshit ways that made no sense for home health.
So, the next time they called, I didn’t answer. Or the time after that, or the time after that. And, when you’re one of three men working for a company that’s partially reliant physical strength to be able to do the work needed for some patients, this alarmed my supervisor. She requested a meeting, and I went in. Mandatory meetings were paid though!
At the meeting, it was expressed that answering calls was part of my job. So I asked id I was being paid to sit at home and wait for calls. No, I wasn’t “on call”. So, you want me on call? No, just to answer when we call you. That’s being on call, and we’re supposed to get paid for that. No, this is different, we just want you to be available when someone calls out for a difficult patient. Soooo, you want me on call.
This went in circles for a while before I switched gears and directly said that answering calls when not on duty was not in place when I was hired, and that the employee handbook specified that being on call was considered a shift, and would be paid as such, and that maybe I should have been on call any of the dozens of times I did wake my ass up from sleep after workout two or three jobs in the first place, and that I never got paid a dime for doing so, so that was the end of it for me.
The response was that they couldn’t stay operating if they paid everyone for being on call instead of us “supporting the company”. My response was that maybe they could have if they hadn’t shelled out for the Disney crap, or if the previous administrator hadn’t been screwing around and embezzling, and that maybe it was time the company supported us.
Not surprisingly, I was one of several employees “let go to streamline services” a few weeks later, right before the company folded entirely.
So, you don’t even have to have an office job to get treated like shit! Isn’t that a relief? Isn’t it?
The people who should me steering the ship often would never accept a position at the helm, and then we are left with people serving up platitudes about why they deserve free labour.
Only thing you left out is when they say, “it doesnt come with additional pay but it will look good on your resume!”.
The response was that they couldn’t stay operating if they paid everyone for being on call instead of us “supporting the company”.
That’s the heart of the matter. They wanted you to support the company, without the company supporting you.
As a middle manager in a corporate hellscape, one of my few joys in life is setting logic traps for HR and making them choose between admitting company policy is bullshit or directly instructing me to violate labor laws.
Doing the Lord’s work there, Sonny!
if it’s the latter, just get it in writing.
That’s the goal.
Theres something enormously satisfying about asking the question “And are you willing to give me that in writing?”
Then watching them squirm as something in their brain goes full Ackbar “ITS A TRAP!”
I would love an example, but can accept you can’t produce one without compromising yourself.
The current argument I’m involved in is about an online platform that people can use to give recognition to each other. HR is telling me to give my team negative performance reviews for not using it regularly.
They love to remind me that there’s an app that everyone can install on their phone. The thing is, my team aren’t allowed to use their phones at work. So, the goal is to get them to tell me in writing that using this online platform is mandatory and that my hourly staff has to do it off the clock or face repercussions which is illegal.
Oh that scratches the itch.
God among men
I wouldn’t go that far. There are people on here that would call me a monster for just being middle management.
Yet you continue the struggle against the chaos of bureaucracy protecting your team. That’s a hero st the very least.
Thanks for that.
Lots of people talk crap about middle management but the Job is to protect the working class from the madness of system as best you can. That makes a good leader. I had the pleasure of working with really great managers.
Oh I like this one a lot.
Ol Reliable…
In all of my IT jobs I would have been fired if I had signed into work accounts on my personal phone. It’s a pretty big security risk.
Most companies seem to have don’t ask, don’t tell policies in place.
Technically we’re not allowed to use Teams on our phones, but most of us do, including management.
I’m also technically not allowed to use Spotify on my laptop, but if they’d enforce that ban, IT would be gone tomorrow.
deleted by creator
Fuck their data, what about my own? That pest of an app is not getting onto my device. And neither is anything else that gives an employer any control over my device.
A totally reasonable stance.
For clarity, the android feature essentially makes a work dedicated partition on the phone. Their management app can manage that partition, and for the purposes of data movement it’s essentially a distinct phone.
If they’ve set it up correctly they can do a remote wipe without touching your personal data.In a lot of cases the drive to have users use their personal devices rather than employer owned ones comes from the users, not the workplace. Only needing to keep track of one device is easier in many cases.
My policy as well. Non-negotiable hard no. But I’m fortunate enough to have at least some choice with regard to employment.
Eh, it doesn’t need to be, you just need to do the work of putting together granular access controls that can account for your risk profiles.
The risk isn’t much different between a company owned telephone and a personal telephone.
They’re both susceptible to most of the same attacks, or being left on the bus.True, but in small companies it’s not uncommon.
I was at a subsidiary of a very large company and had work slack, email, and all my code on my phone, without even the thing that lets them remote wipe your phone.
It has to do with culture and willingness to put in the effort by the security organization
Get hit with one ransom ware attack and that shit’ll pivot 180.
Yeah, or even just budget cuts. I am sure it’s cheaper to just lock it down.
Not exclusive to IT; I had to weigh the benefits of continuing to work as a caregiver for a small company, versus working in retail for a massive chain (which translates to fantastic insurance benefits.)
Sadly not a competition.
In my current job the old manager okayed working on our own devices.
I would use my personal workstation to ssh into and do work on my work mac, did that for a few years. saved me disassembling my desk between uses every day or buying a costly KVM.
They seem to be getting a lot more uptight about security these days (although the “you can work on personal devices” rule hasnt been explicitly rescinded) so i have stopped interaction between my personal devices and work devices.
Having a M2 mac recently makes it easier, i can lie in bed and work pretty much all day on a single charge so my desk remains intact
I remote into my work laptop too, but I don’t have any work data on my personal devices. And, my desktop is more secure than my work laptop.
Unless it’s 24h gold service with 24k gold pay, the work phone gets turned off at the end of office hours.
There are places that pay well for on call though.
Sounds kinky.
“No, not like that!”
Man we had someone in the army do this. Army doctrine is either outdated or very accessible to the poor, I don’t fuckin know, but you aren’t required to have a phone.
So this one weird junior Joe just decided he didn’t need a phone. Got rid of it, and as a result never got the information he needed on army shit. I loved him for it, and by the law he was in the right. Can’t tell him to get a phone.
Unfortunately I was his team lead, and every time my chain of command decided to put out bullshit last minute information over text I had to tell them to suck it and pvt NoPhone wouldn’t be at their surprise formation.
Sometimes for important stuff I would have to drive to the barracks and knock on homies door to let him know there’s surprise inspections or piss tests and shit.
The workplace should operate entirely without external communication. It worked since the dawn of man, and it should continue to work until the end of man if we want any semblance of work-life balance.
As retired Army, this is freakin’ phenomenal. I hope that dude is doing well today.
pvt NoPhone
Love this bit. Gonna steal it :D
If I had to guess, the reason for the lack of a phone requirement is that, if the army required everyone to have phones, the army would need to pay for them, too. I’m sure the army loves spending money on things like that.
Which you know makes sense. What if aliens invade? We need the team assembled!
Big “thathappened” energy
It’s hilarious the reaction you’re getting. I love this story and someone out there has surely done similar but this is a fiction. I think you’re being downvoted because people really really want it to be true.
Do you have proof that this is fiction? I don’t think so. There’s no proof that it isn’t either, sure, but this sub is mainly just for laughs and the story doesn’t require being true for it to be funny.
Coming into threads and posting stuff like that is like going into malls at Christmas just to tell kids that santa isn’t real. (Or worse, since you don’t even know if you’re right in this case).
Noticeable that you seemed to have taken that comment personally, which is odd–not the intention. In any case, it sounds like a repeat of AITH on Reddit where people would post a lot of fiction and pass it off as real.
Like when your mother and I conceived you.
No one believed I was your father.
…because I wasn’t.
Our boss was freaking out over people sometimes doing some private calls during work hours and at a certain point absolutely forbade it. So yeah, people would just end the call at 17:00 sharp and switch off the work phone. It took one week before that rule was rescinded.
Teamwork makes the dream work.
God, I hate how often my CEO says this
Sounds like he’s a fan of unions. Take him up on it.
This reminds me of a work-to-rule or a “White Strike.” It turns out that every company, even those that supposedly operate off of “unskilled” labor, utterly rely on employees making a ton of judgment calls and often working outside their job description. When employees start working to the letter of their job description, the whole operation quickly grinds to a halt.
“Other duties as assigned” is a bitch.
That’s what gets struck in a white strike.
If it’s literally in your job description, as it has been in my last several positions, does it qualify?
If everyone does it then it works.
A white strike, like all strikes works because of collective action, not because of some tricky technically lol.
You make them assign the task to you, don’t just do it because it’s necessary. Each task that is not part of your actual assigned job needs to be assigned to you. Every time. If they want you to do it every time it’s needed, ask for them to update your job description to reflect it.
It’s called a white strike because you are burying them in paperwork, but not walking off the job.
My listed job duties are infinitely vague and I’m responsible for everything.
Bonus, you can ask for clarification on everything.
Sure. It means they can ask you to do other things that aren’t explicitly written in the original job description. But every time they tell you to do something beyond it, you just start doing THAT exactly to the letter of the request.
Okay, you’ve assigned me a duty. Give me exact, and I mean exact, instructions about how to complete it.
Now repeat for the thousands of tiny tasks everyone just does on their own.
This is when “could you please send that request on writing via e-mail” becomes really useful.
Here we call it “standard operation” and it’s also a kind of “white strike”
Same in Brazil. It’s a most effective form of strike - you still get paid, the consultant still hemorrhages money. Another common one among public transit is when bus drivers still go around their route but don’t collect payment.
And that’s ridiculous on general because you know who also does regular work hours? Everyone else!
That means if you need a call with your doctor, bank, whatever, it’s likely gonna be during the workday
Should be the standard anyway. Reading email and texts from work, or responding to calls, is work. Unless your contact specifies on-call hours, you should ignore your boss outside of working hours. If they really want you to respond they can pay you overtime.
Places that specify on call time also tell you not to check stuff when you’re not at work or supposed to be on call though, because that’s expensive for them. And if they tell you to check something they just put you into on call pay.
