In the US the cruelty is the point. We will never end homelessness here because its an intended feature of our economic system. It’s a constant threat to workers. Coersing them into accepting low wages and long hours in the name of stability.
It should be treated as a union issue.
“You don’t get to have the leverage of excommunication and death over our workers”
mmm, yes, their sweaty, sweaty fate
“It’s called a reference, sweaty – look it up.”
(Maybe, anyway.)
I came here to heckle the person who can’t find the edit button. Thanks for making sure it was already handled.
Dishwashers are an accessibility item, too. Housing should be required to have them, just like places require wheelchair ramps.
And if we have to pick in-unit laundry should be top priority. You can do a lot with a sink and a hot plate but ain’t nobody should be washing clothes by hand and having to keep an eye on your clothes, especially for unhoused people who are probably a little justified in being worried about leaving their stuff unattended, takes some energy people may not have.
A free laundry room is fine
Absolutely. I’m currently living in a shelter, and we have 3 washers and dryers, 1 of each has been busted for at least a week. The door locks, and only staff has the code. Sharing a laundry situation has barely any pros, and mostly cons.
Yeah here in Finland that is basically achieved by having a laundry-room in apartment buildings that you can reserve. In some of the places I lived, it did cost though, so more of a laundromat in the cellar of your building. But usually free in the buildings that have a lot of government supported people.
Also Finnish, and where I live it’s not only free to do as much laundry as you want up to three hours/day down in the basement but everyone in the house helps to keep the washers and dryers clean and functional as well as regularly clean the common areas together. As a 38 year old man it’s quite funny to hang around and clean with a bunch of older ladies, lol.
…and ofc that sweet unlimited internet for free is nice as well.
Borsch he is silen
Also I don’t quite get it. Who makes the money?
Oh is this so they can work?
Do they have to sign a contract where they will work for you or else they lose the house and counseling?
I just don’t see how a society can continue if they aren’t paying their fair share!
/SarcasticCapitalism
Had me in the first half. My thumbs were really revving up.
The worst thing is, this is a far more effective way to make them productive members of society. It just isn’t cruel.
If it’s not cruel, I’m not doing it!
I really don’t think anyone can get physically healthier (I think that’s a big point) when they are sleeping in the cold and don’t have good nutrition.
multivitamins have been proven to be useless.
Thought it was just that they were useless for most healthy adults with any diet short of nutritional deficiency.
yes, that’s what we should be advocating for unhoused people, not wasting money on multivitamins. If we’re already talking about giving them an apartment and counseling, I don’t think a reasonable meal plan is much more to ask for.
did you have an actual point? just citing random studies via google means nothing.
I was highlighting the fact that there’s evidence for both answers
there really isn’t though.
In conclusion, multivitamins were found to enhance immediate free recall memory but no other cognitive domains.
Neuhouser et al (14) recently provided an excellent summary of observational and clinical trial data on dietary supplements in relation to cancer. For MVM supplements, case-control studies of cancer at various sites (eg, colon, esophagus, stomach, oropharynx, breast, cervix, bladder, prostate, and skin) suggested that benefits may exceed risks. Corresponding cohort study results, however, were mostly consistent with no association
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523279101
Conclusion In this large prevention trial of male physicians, daily multivitamin supplementation modestly but significantly reduced the risk of total cancer.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1380451
yes you can cherry pick studies to prove just about anything you want. you can find “scientific” studies that prove climate change is bogus too. there’s a lot of crap science out there. look at meta-analyses and recommendations from trusted institutions like Johns Hopkins as I linked above which you clearly didn’t read.
Everyone deserves food, shelter and safety
Ok Jesus.
Whats next, everyone should be able to see a doctor if they are sick!?
This guy.
Ive had it up to here with this new testament soy boy. Wheres the brimstone? Wheres the suffering?
In my day, the women lusted after their lovers, whose genitals were like that of donkeys and whose emission were like horses. Ezekiel 23:20
MY God commits war crimes on a massive scale:
The earth will be shaken from its place at the wrath of the LORD of Hosts on the day of His burning anger. Like a hunted gazelle, like a sheep without a shepherd, each will return to his own people, each will flee to his native land.
Whoever is caught will be stabbed, and whoever is captured will die by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses will be looted, and their wives will be ravished. Isaiah 13:13-16
HBO needs to make an old testament series. I need a GoT budget thrown at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, after at least half an hour of truely understanding their wickedness.
The “wickedness” of Sodom is described as:
Ezekiel 16:49–50: “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
later prophetic reproaches of Sodom and Gomorrah do not condemn, implicate, or even mention homosexual conduct as the reason for the cities’ destruction: instead assigning the blame to other sins, such as adultery, dishonesty,[48] and uncharitableness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah#The_sin_of_Sodom
So… pretty much America?
Adultery, dishonesty and uncharitableness…
Yeah that explains my ex pretty well. I guess fire 'n brimstone is what we gonna get
Best I can do is a reboot of supernatural and $3.50 .
In my day we’d throw people out to die just for stealing an apple.
Why does it even need to be a transaction? We help each other because it’s the right thing to do. It doesn’t need to result in anything other than gratitude and happiness.
I’d like to point out that “mental health counseling without any preconditions” is definitely bullshit. For free? Sure. Without preconditions? Nah.
Housing though? Available for everyone, sure, and compared to most other countries, the system is good. But it doesn’t mean it doesn’t have flaws in it and that we couldn’t improve.
I’m just here to point out people put Finland on a pedestal.
You shouldn’t. It’s not terrible in most ways, and pretty good in a lot of ways. But don’t idolise. Realism. It’s just different, so different problems as well.
Kela (National Pension Institution) urges thousands to seek cheaper housing.
And these people are already living on the housing which is the cheapest available. It’s basically just a convoluted excuse from the government for austerity to social security. Since none of the social security or the like are being reduced, they’ve just “indexed the calculation for reasonable living costs” or some shit, send out these letters, which people will reply to with “wtf do you think I can do, because moving would cost and there’s literally no cheaper housing available” and then Kela will go “oh well guess then you’re voluntarily taking a cut in your social security (so definitely don’t blame the government, blame the markets or whatever)?”. And that’s the point of it.
I’m sorry that your dose of reality - countering a ‘paris effect’ but for Finland - earned you downvotes for … Truth?
Eh that’s classic lemmy. Will downvote anything that points at nuance.
They say that there should be preconditions for mental health treatment and then don’t remotely explain why.
Do you want a three page essay on why I think these things are?
Because I have a lot of personal experience. Decades worth, in fact, and it’s no problem, but the reasons are not simple and it will take some reading from you, with a few quite incredible things, which I wouldn’t have believed if some random person had told me them online 15 years ago, but of which I have actual proof. On my body as well as photos, other recordings and official papers.
Am I having an aneurysm rn?
I would prefer that over no explanation, absolutely.
It still blows my mind that some people cannot comprehend that not everything needs an exchange of currency in some way shape or form.
“They don’t do anything in return?” “They don’t get worse!” “But who compensates the people who help them?” “We do.” “But then who compensates us?”
I view it as a form of capitalism indoctrination. If there’s no material compensation it’s a bad idea, which is the capitalist idea of “if I don’t make a profit I won’t do it”. I’ve seen people argue free energy is bad because the excess energy cannot be monetized, which is something you say only if you want to profit from energy.
Like do these people realize that if we give people the means to not just survive, but thrive, in our society which rapidly approaches post-scarcity (I’d argue we’d basically be there if we had better distribution of wealth) then they would have no reason to steal or kill? I mean except for the worst cases, but ya know… if everyone except for the truly evil has no reason or desire to do crime then…
Just saying imagine a world where police actually fought bad guys and just let social workers handled the wayward sheep, the downtrodden, and the desperate?
The “4 out of 5” figure roughly matches what I recall being told by a head of Catholic Charities maybe a decade ago. You certainly have some percentage of people who’ve been given everything they need to be comfortable, and when you leave them alone and come back to check on them, they simply have not been able to look after themselves. But for the vast majority, it does work. People are in a safe space where they can look for work, have an address to put down on applications, and all that.
Quite affordable too; ambulance rides and jail visits aren’t cheap.
Who knew getting them healthy and back in the workforce paying taxes could pay off?
This here exactly should be the goal of all those “fiscally responsible” Republicans: homeless sick dude is healed and housed and counseled until he’s back paying his damned taxes and a productive member of society again.
People who can’t cope will need a different programme, but still a live-in deal with counseling and a focus on the fundamental needs.
deleted by creator
So do prisons. It’s all performative nonsense from a financial perspective.
Prisons are a way to use taxes to transfer wealth from the lower classes to the upper.
“Party of fiscal responsibility” is projection, just like everything else.
It just depends on whose finances they feel responsible for. If it’s wealthy people then yes they are fiscally responsible to make sure they get more tax breaks.
Twitter is bad.
Ok, but how can Finland afford the nesting-doll yachts if they are giving out money that should have gone into billionaires’ hoards?
I can imagine nothing more miserable than having a day out on a massive expensive yacht… on the Baltic Sea.
(Regular rich people might have some fun on the ferries, but billionaires probably don’t, because this involves buying a ticket and sharing the ship with the rabble.)
One day, I wish I had a shitty old fishing boat and go slowly puttering through the rain and gloom. Living the real life.
Nooooo that money is supposed to go to hard working shareholders like nature intended!!
/s
As a conservative I support this idea, because it has no means testing.
Means testing is fucked up in two ways:
- It makes government larger and gets the government asking questions, poking its nose into everything
- It creates a perverse incentive structure, one which doesn’t match nature and hence doesn’t match the way our brains evolved to respond to challenge.
The perverse incentive structure is the worse of the two, in my opinion. Just like crack cocaine hacks the brain, presents something the brain can’t handle because it didn’t evolve for, rewarding a person with resources only when they don’t succeed basically programs a person to fail.
I’m all for the government generously giving with an open hand to people, and letting the people decide when to start receiving benefits and when to stop. People are either worth it or they aren’t, and a person doesn’t stop being worth it just because they got their shit together, or start being worth it just because they failed.
Government should treat everyone the same. If a government wants to present a service like “free housing if you want it”, I’m totally fine with that.
As a conservative
I’m all for the government generously giving with an open hand to people
“Conservative” is not exactly a rigidly-defined term, but here in the US these two lines I quoted from your comment are absolutely polar opposites.
It’s a fiscally conservative position, where fiscally conservative is defined by someone who wants the government to spend less money and have a balanced budget.
Homeless people are a net burden on the government, even if the only costs are to arrest and imprison them. Since we are already paying to house them (in prison) it would make sense instead to give them a modest place to stay and enough support to get them back to a healthy state of living. This becomes a net financial benefit because a healthy employed person pays income tax, they buy stuff and pay sales tax, etc. so the money spent to get them back on their feet is repaid and then some.
The same thing happens again when the government offers free college or vocational training to people, the amount of taxes someone pays goes up with their income, and using the government as a single-payer to these schools will help keep costs low.
Case in point: in Ontario we had a program called Second Career (it still lives on as ‘Better Jobs Ontario’ but it’s been hamstrung by the conservative government) which was funded through EI and would pay your tuition, books, supplies, and give a basic living allowance up to $28k per year if you qualify. It would cover any 2-year diploma program, with the caveat that if you failed out you would be on the hook to repay the tuition/books/supplies costs.
I did that program starting in 2009 and paid out-of-pocket (w/OSAP) for a third year to upgrade from Technician to Technologist. Prior to that, our household income was low enough that we effectively paid 0 income tax after deductions. After graduating, I tripled my income, and in the 11 or so years since I’ve doubled it again. For the ~$60k the government spent on me, they made that back in about the first 3 years after graduation and the rest has been profit from their perspective.
It’s a fiscally conservative position, where fiscally conservative is defined by someone who wants the government to spend less money and have a balanced budget.
Just to continue my point: “fiscal conservatism” has had nothing whatsoever to do with US conservatism since Ronald “Deficits Don’t Matter” Reagan blew the budget to pieces in the 1980s and started us on our debt spiral that currently has us sitting at $35 fucking trillion.
in Ontario we
Ah.
In the Netherlands we tend to rank our parties along left-right and progressive-conservative axes separately. Conservative-left gets you Christians who care about the poor. In other countries there’s also the “I want the government to support our workers”, “I want to go back to Soviet times” and “I’m leftist but LGBTQ is wrong” types.
It’s an interesting difference. By supporting aid to the poor, you are trying to conserve that which already exists in your country. By supporting aid to the poor, we are trying to progress beyond what already exists in our country. Same issue, same viewpoint, but because your country is so much more advanced than us already on this issue, it makes you a conservative and me a progressive.
Oh I’d never call myself a conservative, and most conservative parties here are right-wing as well.
I believe in limited government. Removing means testing from government services reduces the size of government.
You shouldn’t have to work for a roof over your head and mental health support.
I’m for restricting human behavior as little as possible while still allowing anyone to escape any bad situation they don’t want to be apart of.
Bingo
A conservative with compassion and sense is always a welcome sight. This is a pretty obvious solution imo, but the powers that be seem to disagree.
