• dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net
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    2 months ago

    Apolitical: far right/fascist Liberal: right Moderate: right “Democrat”(USA): right leaning moderate.

  • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    It’s the media, not the people. If you read the same article from sources across the political spectrum, you’ll find the further right you go, the more information is omitted and the more opinionated the journalist becomes. So, someone who reads primarily right wing and centrist media will naturally have a right wing opinion when reading centrist articles.

    • EleventhHour@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Yeah, I’m not buying the “your opinions are just biases” argument. I don’t deny the influence of past experiences, I just believe humans are more nuanced than that.

      • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Opinions are absolutely subjective, but the content they’re based on is also skewed.

        If all of the news you consumed was curated through an engagement algorithm, it would change the way you see the world. Your opinions would be based on that perception.

    • ochi_chernye@startrek.website
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      2 months ago

      While this is true, people still bear responsibility for the media they choose to consume. People wake up every day and decide to get their information from liars and grifters, because they prefer the way lies feel. It isn’t as if they don’t have options. Now, media literacy is definitely a problem. But the only solution is education, and that’s a silver bullet too slow to save us from all the extant ill-educated mooks.

      • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        I agree. Many people make the mistake of getting their news exclusively served through algorithms. They see a very skewed painting of the world based on what they’ve shown interest in previously.

    • goat@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      But hell, I’ll bite. I’ve ranted about this before, and I know my views don’t fully apply to Americans, but I truly believe that using left/right as labels is playing into the elite’s hands. You ask a left-person or a right-person their opinions on the rich, and both of them will come to the same conclusion, but as soon as you mention either side, then they start fighting. Thus, the picture is ignored; it’s about teams now, it’s about cancelling and gotchas, no more about the imbalance of social power.

      Honestly, how can anyone be so binary with their political beliefs in an age where we have functional neural networks, global interconnectivity and instant access to whatever we desire? Our water is so fucking clean that we shit in it. We have so much food that there’s obesity in ourselves and in our pets. When a disaster happens, when the walls break down, are you really going to be so petty and pathetic as to worry about left or right? I don’t reckon.

      I refuse to use left/right since I don’t even think it applies in my country. Allow me to explain. In Australia’s system, we have two separate houses of Parliament, preferential voting, state, federal, and local elections, councils, a monarchy, and territories. Preferential voting ensures your vote is never wasted and goes exactly where you want it.

      Where do I fit if I vote for Fusion first, Animal Justice second, Greens Third, Labor fourth, and Liberals fifth for Representatives? While also voting for UAP, One Nation, or Liberal for Senate? What if I throw independents into the mix? Shit, the way parliaments are designed is that parties have to come together to get bills and acts through.

      Can you legitimately blanket all that with just one side? Not in Australia, at least. Only advice I have for Americans is to leave, find a better country, they’ll be more than willing to take you in and as an American, you can certainly afford to leave to almost every other country.

  • Rain World: Slugcat Game@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    on reddit, there’s a place that requires you to flair yourself with your political compass, flaired myself centrist (after someone said “FLAIR UP!!!”), someone said “NO YOU’RE NOT!!!”, later took the political compass test, came out centrist.
    guess what i am now, given where i currently am

    • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
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      2 months ago

      Anything but far-right, or as the Reddit PCM community would say, [insert series of slurs here]

  • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    It’s weird how often people say they “Aren’t for Right or the Left” and “Think BOTH parties are the problem”, but only ever have negative things to say about the Left.

    Concern Trolls are not your friends

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        2 months ago

        It’s weird how you made it your personal mission is to correct “other people’s wrong opinions”.

        Get over yourself 💁

      • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        well the richest guy on the planet and the republican party candidate both are trying to portray kamala harris as a communist when she’s possibly slightly to the right of nixon.

        I do think the media needs to be broken up, the lack of competition for big media (including social media) has resulted in some level of complacency with unhinged conspiracies.

    • ameancow@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      It betrays a deep level of self-awareness of being on the “bad” side and knowing that if you say your actual values around a large number of normal people you will face criticism and attacks, so it’s shame. Centerism is almost always some level of shame, or at best woefully immature ignorance of actual politics.

  • Snowclone@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    If your response to a call to ethnic clensing is ‘‘well… let’s meet them half way’’ you aren’t a moderate centrist.

    • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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      2 months ago

      Often? I’ve never seen it NOT that way, and I’m a huge fan of nuance. With them, I just can’t see any justification for that argument.

    • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social
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      2 months ago

      Thanks for saving me the effort of pointing this out.

      “Yeah, I don’t agree with his racism, but I can’t support post-partum abortions by feeding babies to coyotes so we can afford to pay for 25 billion illegals to stay in the Ritz Carlton like the Democrats do. #BothSides”

  • _____@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    It’s because they identify 100% with the party but don’t want the negative flack or rightfully deserves, so they pretend to be centrist.

    • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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      2 months ago

      It used to be libertarians that did this shit. Too afraid to commit to the bit, but still want to appear as if they’re the good guys.

      • auzy@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        yeah… Here in Australia, they were also the only political party around who never removed their shitty signage after the election (and they legally have to). I’m surprised the Election council didn’t do it for them and send them the bill. I think the problem with those wankers is that they constantly try to get away with dodgy actions, and they end up being successful so many times, that they just keep doing it

    • auzy@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Exactly this. Many of them are concerned about how it might affect their work too and their families if they found out they’re were horrible racist people.

      It’s part of the reason why the KKK wore clokes

    • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      This has actually been studied

      Anti-Authoritarians and Moderates view it as best to be seen as Anti-Authoritarians, Authoritarians view it best to be seen as Moderates.

      They literally view opportunistic claiming of the center not just as a political tool but as a social survival tactic to not be ostracized for their bullshit.

  • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Interestingly enough I always did research on both candidates right up to Romney. And I always voted blue. There are people out there who don’t like either party and aren’t on the right.

  • bastion@feddit.nl
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    2 months ago

    This is absolute hogwash. Actual centrists bring up some Republican talking points (at least, the valid ones) when talking to a Democrat, because democrats don’t seem to understand them.

    Surprise surprise, Republicans think centrists bring up Democratic talking points.

    Centrists get the same bullshit demonization from both parties, because both parties are insanely convinced that getting rid of the dissenter makes the issue go away.

    It would have been nice if he issue was just something simple, like a religion. But no, demonization is too convenient - an easy argument for pawns to make. Step on someone else, make yourself feel better. Classic.

    • Letsdothis@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Yeah, it’s a terrible mentality.

      “If you aren’t completely on my side, you’re on the other side.”

      It is possible to be on neither side…

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          2 months ago

          Yeah. Stories exist for a reason, but people can be like “this is my favorite story!” while straight up missing the cues.

          • hmonkey@lemy.lol
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            2 months ago

            I wouldn’t be surprised if one day democracy actually dies with the thunderous applause of those who enjoyed those amazing prequels

      • webadict@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        You will never get an answer from them because the small nuggets of truth that exist in Republican talking points are then used to make batshit claims and then turned into a point of profit for some grifter somewhere.

        • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          its truthiness at work. This is why even the dumb economists are looking at the Trump Tax Cut Plan and sigh. Its just corporate power metasticizing over all 3 branches of government. When Vance talks about democrats stripping the country for parts thats literally his game plan. He knows its unpopular so he says its not him doing it despite that was his previous job as a venture capitalist

    • ZeroCool@slrpnk.net
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      2 months ago

      This is absolute hogwash. Actual centrists bring up some Republican talking points (at least, the valid ones) when talking to a Democrat, because democrats don’t seem to understand them.

      Surprise surprise, Republicans think centrists bring up Democratic talking points.

      lmao even as you attempt to deny that centrists only spout off republican talking points and take cheap shots at democrats you couldn’t help but imply that democrats are too dumb to understand the other side’s position while holding a neutral tone toward republicans in the very next sentence. Centrists aren’t even good at hiding their nonsense.

      • bastion@feddit.nl
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        2 months ago

        Surprise surprise, the Democrat thinks I was being neutral to the Republicans.

        Buried in extremism.

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I disagree with your main point. But the idiot reply you got does kind of support it. He literally did exactly what you said people do, and he didn’t even realize it, and he got loads of upvotes.

          My counter to your main point is: lemmy is not reality. Lemmy is full of morons. Also, the entire right wing is full of morons. There is, however, a decent fraction of Democrats who are not morons, and they can tell centrists from right wingers pretending to be centrists. Most centrists are either pretenders, or they’re just woefully ignorant people. Sure you have the occasional true centrist who has actually throught about politics more than once in a blue moon (and it sounds like you’re one of those) but most are not like that.

          • bastion@feddit.nl
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            2 months ago

            My experience with both parties (and centrists) is that there are some (more rare) people who have solid reasons for their positions, and that so very much of the rest is chaff and regurgitation.

            And yes, Lemmy is not reality. But there is a decent fraction of Republicans who aren’t morons, but Republicans are, by and large (with some notable exceptions), terrible at taking something they grasp intuitively, reasoning it out, and communicating that in a way that Democrats will understand.

            I can get how people view this as being moronic. But the underlying intuitions are solid, and not prioritizing analytical thought over intuition allows them to hold to those intuitions well. Unfortunately, their entire party was hacked by mongers of Straussian philosophy. Strauss did a lot of “read between the lines and see the dark shit I’m actually saying”, and honestly, both parties suck at handling that, but the Republicans are way more susceptible, because they depend on viable leadership. The Republican leadership is basically a Straussian cult at this point. So despite the underlying intuitions that drive the Republican party being pretty solid, they are not really capable of dealing with a hacked leadership. Disinfo from their leadership fucks them.

            In any case, while Democrats have their own issues that I believe to be just as fundamental, I can’t fault you for thinking Republicans are morons (though I strongly disagree).

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              I mean…you’re kinda arguing that stupidity is just a different form of intelligence here imo. It gets a little epistemological, but I can’t agree that “intuition” is a valid way for a sapient being to live their life.

    • L0rdMathias@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      Your first mistake was trying to inject logic and reason into a conversation controlled by two opposing factions of hyper-fanatic zealots. Your second mistake was assuming that people who willingly sign up to become mindless drones of the party are capable of higher level thought. Nice try tho, I respect the effort.

      • webadict@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        I have yet to see the trucks with an idolized Kamala Harris holding an American flag on them or even a single article of cultwear pushed out like the MAGA hat, so the Democrats are really slacking in their zealotry.

        • bastion@feddit.nl
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          2 months ago

          Zealotry comes in many forms. Of course you wouldn’t use anything that smacked of what the Republicans use, and vice versa. Different teams, and all.

          • webadict@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            You could post an example and invalidate my point, but I think there’s a good reason why you didn’t.

    • darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      This is absolute hogwash

      Alex Jones literally did exactly this, proclaiming himself above left/right politics while consistently presenting far right views to a largely far right audience.

    • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Hey! I’m way left of Democrats, so I really don’t understand Republican talking points… Could you give an example of ones you would say are valid? It would do me some good to know they aren’t just out to cause suffering.

      • Narauko@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

        1. that borders do actually matter to the sovereignty of a country and that control over who and what crosses that border is a necessity,

        2. countries need some kind of balanced budget to prevent hyperinflation and inevitable austerity,

        3. the constitution should be protected and enforced equally for all amendments unless and until they are further amended or repealed, and

        4. the Federal government should exist to provide for the defense of the country, protection of interstate and international commerce, and protection of the common good.

        I happen to personally think that the best implementation for these points would be:

        1. an overhaul of immigration policy is needed to increase legal immigration and decrease the time spent in that process to months or at least under 1-2 years with a pathway that allows current illegal immigrants to get in the back of that (actually useful and reasonably short) line,

        2. countries cannot balance a budget like a household balances a checkbook because it doesn’t work like that and anyone who says otherwise is either economic-illiterate or a con artist,

        3. First, Second, Fourth, and Fifth amendments especially all need to be equally enforced and double especially on the police and the State (looking at you Civil Asset Forfiture, and your partner in crime Cash Bail), and

        4. all of these functions would be best served with Universal Healthcare, Universal Education to an undergrad (Associates) level, Universal Basic Income replacing the existing welfare framework with no hoops or requirements or means testing, some form of Georgist land tax integration to help ensure the wealthy at least start to pay their fair share, and a heavy dose of monopoly busting and anti-trust enforcement to prevent billionaires from becoming a thing in the first place and prevent regulatory capture by capital at the very least.

        Also religion has no business in government and fuck off with race/orientation/religious/etc discrimination. It is all class warfare from the elite and Reagan deregulation caused the death of the economy and the middle class.

        This is why I consider myself a centrist, because the Right would have a conniption fit at most of those beliefs. The Left would have the same conniption fit that I also think that current border policies, the existence of sanctuary cities/states providing incentive, and worst of all the companies and people hiring and exploiting illegal labor due to insufficient availability, use, and enforcement of tools like e-verify (AKA the current status quo) is a shit show and the “left” shows too much weakness on this topic, I think the “open borders/a person cannot be illegal” crowd are dangerously misguided utopiasts, I support the personal right to keep and bear arms interpretation of 2A, support (not limited but also limited) Sates rights as useful ways to experiment with policy along with the original intention of the Senate and Electoral College, and think a decent amount of Left/Democrat ideology is unrealistic, counterproductive, or worse.

        • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net
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          2 months ago

          Huh, you really are an honest to goodness centrist, though a left leaning one, from what you’ve said.

      • bastion@feddit.nl
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        2 months ago

        Really, it’s not so much the current taking points that make sense - although there are underlying truths and values that are being denied, that show up in current taking points.

        And honestly, although things will be okay, I don’t have anything you’ll like to hear about the current situation.

        In general, the biggest issue with the Republican Party is that it depends on good leadership. Like a monarchy, that’s great when you have a reasonable leader, and really shitty when you don’t.

        Currently, the Republican corpus is having to come to terms with the failure of it’s leadership, and the loss of it’s underlying moral fortitude. A very large part of this is because the party has been effectively hacked, and has become a Straussian cult. The Democratic party is not immune to the spread of the underlying ideology, nor of the cult itself, but is impacted in less obvious (but no less problematic) ways.

        While Strauss himself may have had some reasonable ideals, the consequences of the intersection of his methodology of teaching and his ideologies, by nature, create a kind of “you get it or you don’t” state of affairs, where much is implicit. He intentionally did this, because he wanted people to be capable of reading between the lines, and to be able to stand for true and valuable things that you can’t fully justify or comprehend analytically. Although some things must be implicit and be stood for even if they cannot be articulated, the consequences of intentionally creating a scenario where much is left to subtext in an environment (politics) where power is a main focus creates a problematic circumstance that is malignant and difficult to pin down in real-world conflict.

        Not only is this complex of interactions difficult to pin down in real-world interactions, it is difficult to pin down internally, once you’ve genuinely been impacted by it. And so it can spread. And it has spread, in the Republican leadership. And they spread the discordant mixture of implicit behaviors to their constituents.

        All of this is to say:

        Republicans depend on good leadership, and their leadership is fucked right now. But that doesn’t mean the corpus of Republicans in general is actually fucky. They are being fucked too, and their fuckyness will right itself when a mentality comes about that is:

        A: communicable implicitly and explicitly B: capable if seeing through the morass of the Straussian cult.

        Meanwhile, many of the things that the Republican corpus actually cares about manifest in problematic ways, because their needs are no longer met by their leadership.

        So if you’re looking to feel good about Republicans, don’t look at their leadership, or the maga asshats. Look at the very large body of people who has lost representation, and never has been good at having a public voice. Look at the fundamental Republican philosophies, which are, by and large, good. When they act out, tie it back to those philosophies and beliefs, and try to understand how it led to this, now.

        One of the primary things the Republican party doesn’t do is look away from the fundamental necessity for power. This isn’t (generally) out of a desire for power, though that may be what manifests. Instead, it’s from a willingness to deal honestly in realities other people find distasteful. This is why they consider the Democratic corpus “weak” at times. But currently, that’s kinda fucking them, because they also can’t see an answer to the Straussian cult situation. They know, on some level, that something fundamentally important is being left out, but can’t find a way to get back to the moral foundation they had - the power has them. Their leadership knows how to point that unease at the wrong things.

        The good thing is - getting to know your local Republican, and sorting through the emotions it brings up in you can help, because the fundamental issue is deeply psychological.

        The bad thing is, nobody wants to do that, because it’s lots easier to just say “those guys suck” and “we’ll best them at the polls”. But unless the underlying issue is addressed, you’ll lose again. And then time will pass, and you’ll win, maybe, and then lose again. And each time, it will be shocking, and each time, a worse leader, and each time, the mentality and it’s supporting antithetical mentalities spread.

        But, once people realize they can’t escape a thing, and it needs to be faced, they face it.

        You could say this whole thing is a battle between (or a lack of capacity for mutual understanding by) the explicit and the implicit motivators.

        • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          2 months ago

          The MAGA movement is a christo-fascist death cult. Conservative think tanks which may have been influenced by Strauss as much as Schmitt have influenced the MAGA movement with Project 2025 at the very least. However, it would be giving the MAGA movement and Strauss to much credit to say that the MAGA cult is exclusively a Straussian cult. Fascists movements share general attributes with each other, but cannot be accurately described as exclusively the embodiment of one philosopher’s views.

          Regardless, a no would have been sufficient to the asked question.

          The good thing is - getting to know your local Republican, and sorting through the emotions it brings up in you can help, because the fundamental issue is deeply psychological.

          The bad thing is, nobody wants to do that, because it’s lots easier to just say “those guys suck” and “we’ll best them at the polls”.

          But, once people realize they can’t escape a thing, and it needs to be faced, they face it.

          Climate change is the existential threat to life as we know it on the planet Earth. Republicans are the ones who need to learn to face this fact. No matter how much political victory they achieve the problem will remain unless we take action to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.

          In the absence of Republicans accepting the body of research that has been done on climate science, it is up to the rest of us to out vote them. This is true of most positions that Republicans advocate for. They aren’t based on evidence or on a desire to benefit the majority of the population. Republican positions are designed to benefit themselves and the owner class at the expense of everyone else.

          Garnering the political will to out vote an over-represented minority every two years is neither easy nor based on emotion. It is a strategic decision based on evidence to prevent the destruction of the planet and our way of life. It is useful to out vote Republicans because preventing our destruction is a necessary step to improving our society.

          As part of that, it is important to dismantle flawed arguments in favor of the Republicans. Such as a misattribution to psychological factors. Which at best is an unfounded attempt to vaguely refer to a reader’s insecurities.

          Republicans and many other people, regardless of their political leanings, have a tendency to moral reasoning. They attempt to reach a goal by following steps that are justified by subjective morality. Moral positions may inherently feel correct, but aren’t inherently supported by any measurable metric. Despite this philosophers assert that morality should be used to dictate the actions of people. While this position may feel intuitively correct, it has a consistent issue.

          People can state goals and then can designate a subjective moral position to those goals. However choosing actions to achieve those goals based on reasoning derived from the same subjective moral position is not guaranteed to achieve that stated goal. A way to resolve this is to evaluate actions based on their utility. Does a given action advance the stated goal? If so then it is a course of action worth considering. Rather than asking do the ends justify the means, we should ask do the means accomplish the ends. Thinking about actions in terms of their utility enable us to act in our self-interest. Moral reasoning denies us this as moral ideals demand an inhuman level of dedication to achieve. We are best able to pursue our ideals when we can do so in a way that is useful to that pursuit.

          Fascism has taken hold of the Republican Party. Attempting to meet fascists in the middle does nothing to stop climate change. The fascists believe climate change does not exist and that no action is required. No matter how close to the fascists’ position on climate change a person gets, that person will be unable to leverage the support of fascists. So while comprising may be a moral position that feels good and has been useful in certain cases such as infrastructure funding, using it is as a strategy is insufficient to accomplish the stated goal of preventing climate change. The position between systemic change and doing nothing will not make use of the limited time window we have to advert key tipping points in the planet’s ecosystem.

          Climate change seemed the most appropriate example given the statement in your argument of needing to face something that is inescapable. As Republicans are unwilling to act based on evidence on the majority of topics their support cannot be leveraged in a meaningful way for any of those topics. So in general, if a person wants to forward their political goals it is not useful to comprise on issues with a party whose only interest is ruling and not leading.

          But unless the underlying issue is addressed, you’ll lose again. And then time will pass, and you’ll win, maybe, and then lose again.

          Also, once the fascists take power we will lose our democracy. As our democracy is our most powerful tool to enact systemic change and wealth redistribution we have a vested interest in protecting our democracy from fascist takeovers. edit: typo

  • A Phlaming Phoenix@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    I’ve had a guy tell me he votes for Trump because he’s trying to take a balanced centrist view of things. But dude, if Trump is the center, wtf are your extremes?

  • Letsdothis@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    What a horrible meme… you’re only escalating the divisiveness of current politics. Surely, people shouldn’t be defined by political inclinations.

  • Allero@lemmy.today
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    2 months ago

    Let’s just start with the fact that American political system is super skewed to begin with and no actual left has any power.

    Dems are highly pro-capitalist, moderately nationalist and merely strive to strike a bit less horrible balance between the interests of people and businesses. This is not left, this is a bit better right.

    This fallacy keeps people trapped in an idea that the only possible options are “good” ultra-capitalism and “greedy” ultra-capitalism, which is not true.

    People that try to have “both sides heard” totally ignore that there are way more than two angles in this conversation and that Dems are not some sort of a political extreme. Reps, ironically, kinda are.

    And Democrats often think they vote for something actually good, when it’s actually just a lesser evil. Keep that in mind, no matter what you decide.

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      And Democrats often think they vote for something actually good, when it’s actually just a lesser evil. Keep that in mind, no matter what you decide.

      well i mean to be clear, not voting for a literal fascist, is a pretty good vote.