And I am sure drivers are furious about that bus lane.
Because bus lanes are usually poorly implemented. Usually they just take out a car lane, call it a bus lane, and wash their hands of it. Car congestion is now worse, and buses still have to wait at the same lights.
My city did a bus lane right: they took a 3 lane road (2 lanes each way plus dedicated left-turning only lanes), eliminated the turn lane and turned that into a dedicated bus lane with dedicated switching. The bus lane switches don’t correspond to regular traffic lights, so drivers don’t pull into the bus lane to use it (think weird slashes and circles) and the buses don’t have to wait at stoplights next to regular cars. Buses fly by the traffic, and cars didn’t lose a lane. They did extensive traffic surveys and found that only a small portion of traffic was turning left across oncoming traffic and those cars spent a long time waiting anyway. So now cars have to drive a few more blocks to turn but it’s almost the same travel time since they were waiting so long before anyway.
They also added bike lanes with raised concrete medians between them and the cars, which double as platforms for bus stops.
It was a huge win for everyone and works really well.
Lets assume we disqualify the cars going left ro right, and if we also assume each car only has 1 person per car, that means the cars is 32.
A bus that size is usually built to fit around 50ish people using every seat, but none standing.
I ride my local bus everyday. It’s NEVER full like that. I might have 6 people on the bus. Sometimes I’m the only rider.
So, yeah, a bus CAN hold roughly as many prople as cars, (again assuming only 1 person per car, which probably isn’t the case 100%), the reality is that’s not functionally true.
tbf, it’s only possibly not true because of intentional choices in city design and general social attitudes.
That being said, I live in a pretty shitty area for bus transport (I’m in the USA, no less) and the busses are still usually mostly full when I use them.
There are many other reasons why a bus might not be used at full capacity beyond just city design combined with the general attitude of “society”.
In individual cases, sure. But a well-designed city and public transport system should not be running skeleton capacities at daylight hours on the regular.
is it not packed because all those people who could be inside are outside driving their own cars?
is it not packed because the bus line doesn’t have much demand?
either case is not an argument against public transit. the point is to make public transit more convenient and utilized.
Even if it’s only carrying 6 people it’s still doing a better job than the cars which on average probably have 1-2 people in each of them.
Yes, but it’s also the length of 4 cars, and uses diesel.
On the road, 4 cars would take more space lined up one behind another.
I don’t know what the law is where you live but i know what it is where i live, so excuse my weird metrics for a sec while i explain how wrong what you said is.
In order to facilitate proper reaction time for yourself as the driver, you must have about two “seconds” (as in if you stared at the road beneath the car in front of you, your car would be there in about two seconds) between your car and the one in front of you.
Meaning the faster the vehicles are, the larger the gaps, and if we’re talking 4 vehicles, it’s 3 gaps.
For maneuverability’s sake, it’s worth mentioning the “wave propagation” that happens during brake time, but I won’t get into it.
You can see on the road that it takes up one lane like the cars and is equivalent to about 2.5 cars lined up accounting for gaps. Also the point of this post is that if public transport was normalized then this bus wouldn’t have six people in it because half of these cars would be people on the bus instead.
The bus I ride every morning is always so full you struggle to get past the standing people to get to the door. The bus home is usually a little less busy, but I’m currently writing this comment while having to stand on that bus.
Wow, that actually sounds awful.
The morning bus just sucks to get off, but I get on at one of the first stops so I pretty much always have a seat. I even nap most of the way there as it’s a ~40min ride.
The ride home I’ve often gotta stand for the first 3-4 stops until I can get a seat. Then I can just peacefully watch youtube or scroll lemmy, ignoring the world around me for a bit.
For a flat $70/mo for unlimited rides; it’s not a bad deal really. I’d rather this than driving and being frustrated dealing with the morons on the road; while paying significantly more between car payments, insurance, maintenance, and gas.
I absolutely avoided riding the bus in my native city. If a place wasn’t within a mile from a subway station then it might as well be in a different country because I’m not taking the bus there. The buses were always crowded and hot. Subway got crowded during rush hour, but at least there was good AC no matter where you stand.
We’ve only got busses. The climate control is usually pretty good though; decent AC in the summer and heated in winter. Just the occasional shitty driver that doesn’t set it correctly.
Tbh the worst part is inconsolable crying babys. That’s been pretty frequent this summer; but isn’t usually a problem throughout the rest of the year. Otherwise people just keep to themselves, it’s pretty peaceful.
Badly designed transit is not a condemnation of all public transit. Specially when in most of the world public transit is vastly more occupied than in the US and Canada, by the simple fact of actually connecting places people want to go, where people can then walk around when they get there. Parking lots are not destinations.
I lived in a European capital until 28 and never got a driver’s license because public transport was faster than driving through horrible traffic.
Moved to the US and in less than a year had to buy a car because it was impossible to do anything without one. And that was in am area with considerably better public transport than usual for the US. It was just my wife driving, but after a few years I had to get a driver’s license too and buy a second car. I like walking, I prefer good public transit to driving, but it’s simply not an option in most of the US.
Oh, and another story. In my hometown I absolutely loved the subway as THE way to get around. It was cool in the summer, warm in the winter, and average wait was 2-3 minutes. I visited New York one summer and as per habit I went to take the subway to my destination. It was sweltering hot and I waited 20 minutes for a train. Up to that point I considered NYC to be the closest US city to what I’m used to, but that would have been a deal breaker.
But how else will the oil companies increase profits for their shareholders?
by increasing prices while suppressing wages like everyone else?
I wonder if they’ll all end up in different places? 😉
Yeah, busses only pick people up at stops; they’re not allowed to get off until the end of the route…
Normally I would wholeheartedly agree but today I’m only at 95% agreement because the bus was a complete fucking no-show and I had to run down 2 blocks to get back to my buildings’ lot to jump in my car and drive to work to get there on time. A big part of the reason I’m mad though is that I hate driving so that’s still a point in favor of the bus.
lmao, I know that feeling. When I was younger, whole of body, and lived in a shittier area, there were multiple times that no amount of sprinting, shouting, and waving my arms after the bus which REFUSED to make its scheduled stop at the location I was very clearly standing at could penetrate the inscrutable thought processes of the fucking bus driver.
Well, I need to stop by fedex, go the the grocery store, and pick up dry cleaning all before I get home. Then I need to make dinner. So, if the bus takes 1.5 hours and driving takes 15 minutes… the car wins.
We should really say fuck urban sprawl. I’d love to walk to work 🤷
ex Londoner here, I can plot that route in my head by walking around Clapham Common station where I used to live.
In Munich and I’m the same, work to home is 20mins on PT, and everything I need is available at the home end of the journey. If I need to go to a bigger supermarket or something less regular I can take a different way home and stop in the middle. The problem isn’t PT, it’s urban sprawl and poor amenity planning.
Lucky
My city started a program using taxes to pay for half the bus fares of citizens
So I looked things up.
Going to the nearest grocery store:
35 minutes walk 15 minutes bike ride 6 minutes car trip 90 minutes bus ride somehow
Yup. Takes forever. If busses didn’t exist in traffic, having their own dedicated lanes… well, then we would have a light rail.
My city also seems to have a weird focus on lowering fares to increase ridership. Going from $2/ride to $1/ride isn’t going to convince anyone to turn their 30 minute drive into a 90 minute bus ride. Or deal with the uncertainty of whether the bus will be at the bus stop on time.
Right, cost isn’t the issue.
I wouldn’t mind getting a yearly subscription if I could use it anywhere, had more buses, and more routes.
Let me pay taxes goddamn it that’s exactly what they’re for.
Idk, I cost can be the issue. I live in a city with pretty decent public transit, and there’s a reliable transit line that will take me to a friend that I visit pretty regularly. It’s like 5-10 minutes to drive and maybe 20 to take public transit. More time, but if public transit was free I would definitely take it at least 80% of the time.
The problem is, if my boyfriend and I both go, it costs us ~$10 for the round trip. It’s hard to justify spending that when I already have a car, and the gas to get there is a negligible expense. I do okay money wise (hence why I have a car at all), but if you ride often enough that expense really adds up.
Even if there’s only two or three things a month that transit is better for, you’re gonna get reductions in traffic. It doesn’t have to be a full car replacement to be worth bigtime investments.
And it’s the only thing that scale.
Seriously, tho!
Madison, WI just launched Bus Rapid Transit only on one route so far. But that route goes right past the stadium and arenas where the UW Badgers play their games, the city and university performing arts centers, the state Capitol, many popular music venues, and the State Street pedestrian mall. It has free park-and-ride lots at each end of the route. Lots of people say that they will ride in for events at these venues, so BRT hasn’t solved all our issues, but it’s lessening congestion and helping even drivers get around more quickly.
I can do all of those things with a 5 minutes walk in my European city. And I don’t even live in the city centre.
Mixed zoning and walkable cities are the solution.
Not living in the city is my solution. It’s great.
That sounds like a dream. What country do you live in?
Italy. Then of course not everybody is as lucky as me (e.g. people living in the countryside, or working far away from home), but the majority of people can enjoy having all their basic services at a walking distance. Especially if they live in the city centre.
Part of the solution. Public transit needs to be much faster, more reliable, and more efficient too. But it needs proper investment.
Current citty dweller here, having 200 people within 30m (in three dimensions) of my bed at night is unsustainable. Trust me theres a middleground somewhere
Well those things are like in the same mall where the parking absolutely sucks, so bus was way easier.
For me it’s an 11 minute drive, 16 minute bike ride, or 58 minutes walk according to Google. Not sure about the bus since it doesn’t calculate time for multiple stops.
Perhaps, but bike and walking time don’t change based on traffic
Mall?
how is a grocery store in a mall?
That’s how it is in the Philippines.
Parking usually sucks, because it’s completely full.
I’ve even seen cars line up for a space to park at the mall.
The parking garages are usually big, but Manila is overcrowded by a significant amount.
Pretty normal in most European countries
Sure, but I’m not going to get on any conveyance with a bunch of strangers if I can avoid it.
People get stabbed on busses here. I’ll drive everywhere, thanks.
People get shot when driving too, you wanna walk now?
Not where I live.
I’m with you on this one, not sure why you’re being downvoted. Until public transport is safe, which it has never been in my experience (as a lifelong public transport user in many countries), I’ll walk or cycle. Or, well, now I live rurally so there’s no public transport, and I’m reluctantly driving everywhere.
Really? I’m also not sure why exactly he’s being downvoted, but only bc there’s many possible reasons.
- There’s no way transit-stabbings are a real problem, anywhere. Even in the grungiest places, it has to be a fake problem like elevator cables snapping or plane crashes and it’s all fear-mongering.
- You can make these comments everywhere and they’re always unhelpful. Oh, a “bus is high capacity” post? Yeah, but they’re unsafe here, I’ll pass. Oh, a “bus is super safe” post? Yeah, but they’re very infrequent here, I’ll pass. Oh, a “bus is super frequent post”? Yeah, but we only have small ones, I’ll pass.
- The comment implies smug dismissal, yet that problem and the post’s problem have the same solution: more investments in public transport.
When everyone has to take the bus, it might become safer. Until then, it will be neglected.
Bet you good money that the risk of getting stabbed on the bus is far lower than the risk of getting in a car crash.
The bus has 33 people on it? Even buses in Korea don’t get that packed in most places.
Doesn’t matter, if it was carrying 25% of the people that the cars are it’d be baller.
33 is packed??
Russian here, the main routes are always packed here (esp during rush hour)
Try riding the bus when the children go to school. It will be so full, that combined with emptier busses you are sure to get the 33 on average.
Yea. The bus I take when I go to vocational school is one of those long double busses with bellows in the middle. If you get there at the wrong time, it’s packed to the point the doors won’t close. It has like 50 seats or so alone and at least the same amount of people standing, if not more. It’s crazy how many people you can squish in a single bus. Luckily the ride is only like 10min because it does get uncomfortably full at times.
Also, as a nice extra, the busses are fully electric, also.
one of those long double busses with bellows in the middle
I believe the technical term is: A bendy bus
Makes sense. English isn’t my first language and even in my first language (German), I couldn’t tell you how they’re called. Most people just call them double busses or accordion busses.
Ah. Danke. Ich wusste nur, dass die Ziehharmonika in der Mitte Faltenbalg heißt.
Yeah, and that’s why I prefer cycling or skateboarding wherever I need (depending on the distance). In Russia those MFs get pretty packed at times, sometimes to the point it gets hard to breath in there 😬
Require better utilization of the cars or you have to take the bus. Pretty simple.
people should be reminded that posts like these aren’t really critical of people for not taking the bus. they’re critical of systems and planning that don’t make you want to take the bus.
if the bus is always packed people will not want to ride it. that’s not on you.
if the bus is unreliable, that’s not on you.
if there’s no bus or public transit that goes where you want to go out somewhere of a reasonable walking distance, that’s not on you.
if where you’re going is not walkable in the first place, then taking the bus is pointless since once you arrive you’d need a car anyway.
demanding change however is on you.
it’s not like cars are awesome by the way. they’re inefficient, pricy, troublesome, there’s traffic, parking… it’s stressful and it’s deadly to boot. if people are not taking the bus, the city has work to do.
people have designed the systems you are crying about and people use the systems you are crying about. People make the systems and engage them, you cant keep crying about systems or nothing will change
I’m critical of all the people driving over sized SUV by themselves in NYC when I’m trying to get a loaded box truck though a gridlocked intersection. Even if the city instruction doesn’t have mass transit, you do not need Escalade over a commuter car.
Valid complaint, but not really the focus of this post imo
yeah just because you’re not riding a bus doesn’t mean you should get around with a Gigantus Pollutinator 9000 or a private jet, obviously.
An SUV in NYC is especially egregious. They could have taken the train from Yonkers, and used the bus/subway. You guys are the one city in the US that actually has decent mass transit.
If you actually live in the city, and own an SUV you are an idiot spending way too much on parking.
You guys are the one city in the US that actually has decent mass transit.
The DC metro is a lot nicer than the NYC subway.
Sometimes being in my little car driving in NYC is more relaxing or faster. Most of the time taking public transportation takes the same amount of time as driving, so I’ll pick driving so I don’t have to be cold or hot while waiting or to deal with other people. The argument for making more public transportation faster, more frequent is a good one and would make more people use it.
Blame marketing (propaganda.) Our government has given control of our information networks to corporations and corporations use those channels to blast us with consumerist propaganda 24/7. People are taught that the type of car they drive defines who they are as a person so they do what they were taught and they buy a giant tank of a vehicle so that people will see them as dependable, manly, successful, outdoorsy, etc.
Semi solve by carrying passengers. Become the bus you wanna see.
piggy back rides for $1.99!
Pfft. But for real. I’m getting this feeling this is not normal in USA. Meanwhile where I live people routi ely pick each other up on the way ti save o fuel and/or time.
I think (most) cars are awesome but want better public transit because there’s way too many people who are terrible drivers.
If driving required licensing like an airplane pilot I’d still get one. And probably enjoy driving more because I could expect people to know how to zipper merge.
I just want people to learn how the fucking stop signs work.
I’m starting to develop a vigor for public transit to match the one forced on us for car infrastructure in the 60s. Bigger, taller, more, I want 3 bus lanes and a tram line to any town in the country. We can do no wrong taking back all the space we gave to the car, as long as the garbage truck fits on the street, car users can share 1 lane both directions. Take their parking, take their license for rolling stops and using their phone, gift them e-bikes.
Make transit free, let the highways rot, expand the railways. Sorry for that pothole, all the money was used up by rail.
Just anything better than we have now. If we have to act fast and break things, so be it.
, car users can share 1 lane both directions.
Oh God, I don’t trust them with that.
I visited India 30 years ago and (in the southern part of the country at least) the major highways between cities had a single paved lane in the middle and then just dirt and gravel on the steeply-sloped sides. So on bus trips the drivers would stick to the middle until the last possible second and then veer off so that just the right wheels were on the pavement as they passed each other while tipping crazily to each side. I made the huge mistake on my first trip of sitting in the front seat; I later corrected my mistake by always taking the fucking train, which didn’t have this problem.
In my experience (lived in four countries, ~30 cities / towns), public transport just feels unsafe. It’s always a choice between crazies shouting, groups of teenagers playfighting and blasting their mobile phones on full volume or just the good old rapey stare from strangers. I’d rather not be exposed to all the worst elements of society at close quarters in a metal tube I can’t escape from.
Hi, which countries did you live in? I’ve also lived in several countries throughout my life and only experienced what you’re describing in the US (at least in the city I live in, maybe it’s a bias)
Public transport in London was probably the worst. Case in point: https://red.artemislena.eu/r/london/comments/1fprfcy/i_cant_even_take_the_bus_in_peace_due_to_sexual/
The argument that more people taking public transport would somehow fix this makes no sense in a place like London. It’s a gigantic city with public transport permanently bursting at the seams.
A bus through a dodgy area at midnight won’t feel safe unless it’s policed somehow. I don’t know where the resources for that could possibly come from.
Isn’t that a bit self-fulfilling, though? If more people rode the bus, then it wouldn’t be all creeps and teens.
For my part, having lived in Philly where the people on the busses are actually quite pleasant, it was still too inefficient to make it work. A ten minute drive would be over an hour on the bus, and god help you if the bus was running late (I’m kidding, the bus was always running late). That’s a problem that gets worse when there are more riders. As soon as it got too cold to ride a bike, busses would be completely full and unable to take more riders, which meant you’d have to wait for the next one.
Employers aren’t very understanding about being late. Even if you had a direct route from your house to your job, you’d still need to account for extra time for delays. Taking the bus means you pack on two extra hours onto your commute every day, which even at minimum wage is $3,770 worth of time every year. At a living wage, it’s over $10,000 per year. Even with upkeep and insurance, anybody getting paid enough to live practically needs a car. And that’s if you live and work in the city, which is the ideal situation for public transit. Move to the burbs, and that bus ain’t going where you are.
It seems like it would be a self fulfilling prophecy, you are right.
At the same time, having lived in London for 10 years… This is from today: https://red.artemislena.eu/r/london/comments/1fprfcy/i_cant_even_take_the_bus_in_peace_due_to_sexual/
The argument that more people taking public transport would somehow fix this makes no sense in a place like London. It’s a gigantic city with public transport permanently bursting at the seams.
A bus through a dodgy area at midnight won’t feel safe unless it’s policed somehow. I don’t know where the resources for that could possibly come from.
PSA: There is no such thing as “car lanes.” I understand how easy it is to fall into the trap of calling them that, but we should really try to avoid it.
There are only “general purpose” lanes and lanes that exclude cars in favor of vehicles that don’t suck, such as bicycles or buses. Calling general-purpose lanes “car lanes” is car-supremacist loaded language because it implies that other types of vehicles using them are interlopers, rather than valid road users who are also being entitled to be there.
People refer to them as car lanes because they are designed and prioirtized for cars. Can a bicycle fit in the lane? Sure, but the lane was not designed for bicycle and in most places the lanes are not designed to share with a bicycle. Many people feel unsafe on a bike with 60+km/h traffic flying by them with barely enough room to pass.
They seem just as well-suited for busses like in the post.
When there’s no bike lane available I’ll bike in the middle of the next general lane, so they’ll need to use another general lane to pass. They won’t give us barely enough room, it’s safer to just take the whole lane.
You will be tailgated, honked at, rolled coal, maybe even hit by a mirror on an agressive pass by a truck if caught doing that in my area. I barely even feel safe walking on the sidewalk as most people don’t look for pedestrians at intersections or entrances. Yes the lanes are meant for everyone, but the nature of a car or truck means they can easily take more than their fair share of the lane if they want.
In my area they’ll do that anyways no matter what we do, they just hate cyclists for being in the way at all. So it’s safer to take the lane when they’re flying past you with barely any room to pass.
I’d rather take the safer option that makes them angry, than the polite unsafe option and then they’re still aggressive anyways.
Compared to a proper bike lane, that is not a safe option. What happens if a distracted driver rear ends you?
None of that makes them “car lanes.” They are intended for all road users and car drivers have no more right to them than anybody else.
(Source: my traffic engineering degree)
