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I prefer to say “aww. Aren’t you a bit old to believe in imaginary friends and faieytales? I mean, I liked Harry Potter but I don’t believe something is real when I read a book about it. And Harry Potter even has seven books.”
Good point. I will say that religion taught me the most practical skill. I will never believe in anything, ever. I know better.
You believe you know better. We all believe in something. Some believe in facts, some believe in fiction.
No. I don’t “believe” a gorram thing. I refuse.
I have a grade on how likely my knowledge is solid and nothing more. I don’t need to believe in anything. You’re a sucker. Get over it.
You’re going to hell, repent sinner!
You’re going to hell, repent sinner!
Not sure whether you’re
- inventing a new kind of sinner,
- maybe misspelling ‘recent’,
- really wanting to say “You’re going to hell. Repent, sinner!” in English.
You’re going to hell. Repent, sinner!
Better?
Ah crap. Forgot the internet is super cereal
Oh, cool, see you there…
You’re desperately giving them the victim seeking mentality they crave
“I’ll gay for you.” 🙏
I gay for myself and myself alone. And that cute guy at the coffee shop. I’ll gay hard for him.
Gay the pray away and save a christian!
Thank you so much for posting this, I needed that levity right now.
I don’t know what happened to me, just suddenly realized that christians are totally nuts and they should not be allowed in any position of power.
Have faith, no problems there, believing in an existing book as a source of all truths is a bit much, forcing any part of it on anyone else (including their own children) is despicable and should be stopped.
Ya I walk my dog past a church and every Sunday when I see the crowd of people there I can’t help but view them as a group of weird cultists, even though it’s pretty vanilla Christianity.
When your cult gets big enough, you get to call it a religion.
If you believed in an imaginary friend that talks to you we’d call you crazy, but say that your imaginary friend is Jesus and it’s A-OK!
This highlights a contradiction between Christianity and the modern secular world. Biblically speaking children are chattel property of their parents. In modern law children have their own universal set of human rights, so essentially by that model children belong to themselves and rightful guardianship goes to a succession of people if parents and family do not follow those rules.
But you see constant tension with this idea of child being property to do with as one pleases. It’s also the history of why we use the term “disowned”.
Having grown up under a model of parental stewardship where my parents always saw me as a person they were to train to become an autonomous adult I gotta say the difference between my family and my biblically raised neighbours is pretty stark. That kind of stability has had knock on effects throughout my entire life where I have become a life raft of sorts for friends of mine who grew up with religious trauma.
It seems people can join and quit religion. I’m thinking it’s more a choice than biological or sexual preference (which aren’t choices at all).
Also have you noticed how religion grooms children? Most of those weirdos go after new born babies.
They also go after the elderly and And dead people!
Like when the LDS church were posthumously baptising Holocaust victims.
What I’m trying to say is they got some real fetishes.
Winner winner chicken dinner
And that is how you end a joke.
Look, I respect your right to be how you are, but keep it in your church. I don’t need to see it everywhere I go, and I damn sure don’t want it anywhere near me. I don’t have a problem with you, but if you try any of that God shit on me, I’m gonna put you on your ass, bro.
Are… Are you trying to convert me?
Deep down I’m very scared I might be religious, but I’m not sure because I’m so out of touch with my repressed feeling
I crave for some kind of religion and I want it to be real, I think I was made for it genetically. My core being tries to find meaning in everything, every story, every feeling, the connection with others. Therefore I understand that desire.
But I just can’t take the bullshit when I think about it rationally. The lack of doubt people have in any of their beliefs and the kind of certainty they support their imagined traditions and Gods with. It’s insane.
Finding a meaningful life feels natural, but the only truth I have is that I cannot believe anything for certain. So all religion becomes a complete mindtrap for people who use it to sooth themselves.
And that is fine, I get it. I get that you don’t want to question it as that’s harder and makes life more chaotic. And I also feel some envy for people who are able to not care (as much) about uncertainty. But good for them.
The only thing is, keep those ideas to yourself and your community and accept others for not being able to commit to your story. My story and all my beliefs are probably also flawed, but that doubt is a healthy way to accept that others have different ideas.
*put it in your ass, bro
W-what are you doing, step-priest?
I know this is probably going to get downvoted, but I’m getting tired of people using “evangelical Christian” as the term for the problematic flavor of Christians. If you look up what evangelical Christian means, it’s just that there’s an emphasis on the authority of the Bible, sharing of faith, and personal salvation. Maybe it’s the sharing of faith that seems problematic*, but by context, I think you’re more referring to political conservative Christians.
*If that is the case, I hope it’s just when it’s done in an aggressive/tactless/heavy-handed way. I’d like to think we haven’t reached the point as a society where someone sharing their faith respectfully is seen as problematic.
I read the Bible as a child, because I believed what l was taught.
Now, Jesus is my one and only role model - Jesus sacrificed his life to spread a message that is only more valid 2k years later
Jesus was the shit. He’s my only hero - everyone else I’ve ever looked up to let me down… Jesus died so he would never be the villain.
He never needed to be magic - he was just in harmony with the creator. Be was in harmony with existence lol. His every appearance was to deliver a message
His message was bastardized. Read the new testament - without the assumption of magic. Read it for yourself - as a child, I got through it all on the toilet. - and I read it cover to cover, you can read the new testament in few hours
Catholic means universal, but not all Christ worshippers are Catholic.
Orthodox means correct, but not everyone thinks Orthodox believes are correct.
Evangelical leaders do cause so many issue in the US.
I don’t we were ever at a time where sharing your faith respectfully was problematic. We were and are always in the phase where people sharing and using their faith as an excuse to be a dick is problematic.
If someone is religious but they’re chill with my people and the lgbt community then I’m chill with them.
Anyone who’s actually an evangelical Christian should be. The Bible says to emulate Jesus, and that Jesus is a friend of sinners. Even if someone walks in naked and wasted with “I love Satan” tatooed on their chest and they punch you in the face and steal your wallet, love is not rude.
Anyone who’s actually an evangelical Christian should be. The Bible says to emulate Jesus, and that Jesus is a friend of sinners.
By that metric we’d have only a dozen or so “real” evangelical Christians
Yeah, and that’s sad, but it’s a narrow road.
There’s a bit of “To True Scotsman”, going on here I think. You cannot deny what we all see every day, Evangelicals working every day to suppress LGBTQ and women’s rights. That’s what they do, that’s what they are.
No True Scotsman is a tricky one here. In the original, it works because strictly speaking, a Scotsman is just anyone who lives in Scotland, so you can’t prescribe additional requirements to it. As for Christianity, I feel the term should be limited to those who actually follow the Bible, but in general use it’s just anyone who chooses to call themselves that. I’d love to have a separate term for those who follow the Bible so we can avoid this problem, but if it catches on, the grifters would start calling themselves that too.
In any case, the Bible is the rulebook for Christianity, and calling yourself a Christian implies that you believe it, so I think that it’s fair to say a true Christian is one who follows the Bible. But then, the Scottish law is the rulebook for Scotland. Though calling yourself a Scotsman doesn’t necessarily imply that you’re not a criminal, that’s just the default assumption for everyone (barring racism and other prejudices.)
I think that it’s fair to say a true Christian is one who follows the Bible.
And I think you could waste your entire life looking for a single person that fits your arbitrary definition of what a true Christian is.
All you’re doing here is trying to carve yourself out a comfortable little niche where you can hide and pretend that the criticisms against Christianity as an institution don’t apply to you, because that’s easier than honestly examining your belief system.
You’re not going to split hairs out of this one. Trying to say that these are not Evangelicals because no true Evangelical would do this is pretty much the "No True Scotsman " evasion. When people say, “Evangelicals”, this is exactly the group to which they are referring.
The one or two “True Evangelicals” in the US can consider themselves exempt from this thread.
there’s an emphasis on the authority of the Bible
yeah that’s the problem
Which is a fool’s errand, as the whole reason for Jesus (or at least a big part of it) is that you can’t save people through laws. Nobody can live up to those standards, so everyone would be a criminal.
doesn’t stop people from doing it though.
it’s just that there’s an emphasis on the authority of the Bible, sharing of faith, and personal salvation
Two of those three things are at best annoying and at worst deadly to the evangelical Christian’s victims
The problem is the sharing. If they only did it when asked no problem. But they don’t. They leave shitty tip notes and letters on your door if not outright invoke you to talk with them by knocking randomly. They try to change the laws for everyone to conform to their own personal “salvation” and impose that on us all. They stand outside clinics and shame people trying not to die. If they kept it personal no one would care. But they don’t.
There’s two others that nearly died from evangelicals trying to over share. Stop this and no one would give a fuck. Until then: in for a penny in for a pound.
All flavors are problematic. It shows a lack of critical thinking skills that leak into every facet of their lives, showing that they can’t be depended on to make rational decisions. The vast majority of this worlds problems have religion as a root cause, and the rest are just greed, which goes hand in hand with most organized religions.
The pages from the Bible are worse than toilet paper
evangelical Christian" as the term for the problematic flavor of Christians.
If you look up what evangelical Christian means, it’s just that there’s an emphasis on the authority of the Bible
sharing of faith, and personal salvation
Whether people WANT to share your personal superstitions or not. That’s why evangelical Christians are worse: they evangelize to those of us who have made it clear that we don’t consent and, which is much worse, pass laws based on the assumption that everyone must believe in their favorite fairy tales.
Maybe it’s the sharing of faith that seems problematic
Congratulations on getting the point! If only you hadn’t immediately dismissed it again, there might have been hope for you yet.
If that is the case, I hope it’s just when it’s done in an aggressive/tactless/heavy-handed way. I’d like to think we haven’t reached the point as a society where someone sharing their faith respectfully is seen as problematic
What you don’t seem to understand is that telling people who have not asked about your weird relationship to your invisible friend is an INHERENTLY aggressive, tactless and heavy-handed way to attempt to convert people. Don’t make me trot out the penis example…
I think you’re more referring to political conservative Christians
Because believing that the Bible should continue to have authority over modern society IS a conservative view that’s very political in nature.
There’s a difference between sharing your faith and making it illegal to not follow its rules. That’s what I was trying to emphasize.
I fit the definition of evangelical Christian, though I generally don’t use that label. I believe the God is the ultimate authority, and by extension, the Bible is the ultimate authority over Christians. That does not mean I believe in forcing people to follow its rules or punishing them if they don’t. A lot of the laws simply don’t work or make sense if you don’t have faith, and the Bible makes it clear that you need a change of heart to follow the laws, not vice versa. That’s why I’m not voting for or supporting movements to ban abortions (also the biblical basis of that is questionable) or force shops to close on Sundays.
I believe in the sharing of faith, but I’m not acting like an arch user or a vegan who has to work it into conversation every chance they get (yes, that’s an exaggeration.) My friends already know I’m a Christian, and most people in Western society already know the basic tenets of the religion, so sharing that repeatedly isn’t going to do much. And I can’t force someone to be saved or bring them to salvation, God has to call them. So all I can and should do is help to show it’s real by the way I live my life, demonstrating love for all mankind, and hope they get the idea. If that much is problematic, I think we’ve got issues.
The reason I take issue with demonizing evangelicals is that it comes off as “Christianity as a whole might be fine, just don’t be an evangelical because they’re the bad ones,” and then you look it up and it becomes “you can be a Christian, just don’t tell anyone and don’t believe the Bible.” I figured that isn’t what was meant exactly, which is why I’m asking for a different label to be used, because that’s how it comes off.
Your argument is the same one cops use to justify “bad apples”: it’s not all of us, it’s only some of us.
Before any religion starts preaching to their neighbors or “sharing the faith,” y’all need to get your own folks in order. You may not demonize LGBTQ+ people, or want to ban abortion, or force others to live under the same tenets as you, but those who wear your cross and share your God do.
So all I can and should do is help to show it’s real by the way I live my life, demonstrating love for all mankind, and hope they get the idea. If that much is problematic, I think we’ve got issues.
I would argue we definitely have issues. You will not change my mind, but religion has done significantly more harm across history, particularly Christianity, than any amount of Christian do-gooding will ever be able to undo. Millions across history have suffered, been enslaved, had their rights taken away, been tortured, and killed at the hands of “Christians,” and that includes the modern day. Christian groups are the ones helping to spread HIV/AIDS across Africa because god forbid anyone use a condom, Christians are the ones pushing for abortion bans, and Christians are the ones trying to pull the US into an authoritarian theocracy.
So if you don’t want to be associated with the ills of Christianity, you may want to reconsider, in my opinion, what benefit God provides to mankind. Because from where I’m sitting, it’s literally zero. The world would be a much better place without religion, and you shouldn’t need the promise of an eternal paradise and eternal salvation to, as you put it, “demonstrating love for all mankind.” If you can’t live that way without “God” telling you, then you’re exactly the problem with Christianity.
Youre doing it right now. No one wants to hear about your faith, or how “You might be one of the good ones” that exact thing has been said to persecute too many actual good people who are literally just trying to go about their day.
Its typically not seen as a good thing to go around proclaiming how terrible your critical thinking skills are.
“Christianity as a whole might be fine, just don’t be an evangelical because they’re the bad ones,” that’s about what I got from it. In my church at least, we’re starting to focus more and more on doing actual outreach that doesn’t include evangelizing. Those people who believe that we need to tell all our neighbors regardless of whether they want to hear are becoming more and more of the minority.
I get that a lot of evangelicals are bad but the level of hate Lemmy has for them is… Excessive
Proselytizing in any form is a problem. Keep it to yourself.
I’m getting tired of people using “evangelical Christian” as the term for the problematic flavor of Christians.
It’s ok, the rest of us are tired of evangelical Christians being the problematic flavor of Christianity.
but by context, I think you’re more referring to political conservative Christians.
That venn diagram a circle within a circle.
If you call yourself a Christian while evangelical Christians are making all these problems, you are helping them make problems. They love more than anything being able to claim that they’re in the right because they’re in the majority. If you want to follow the teachings of a middle eastern Jew from the Roman era, that’s fine, but don’t call yourself a Christian because that label has been ruined.
Not only that, it’s unlikely most of the beliefs, teachings and rituals done since the establishment of the Eastern Orthodoxy (~110AD?) are part of Jesus* original teachings. Add the differences that happened after the catholic schism, then protestant reform, plus other shenanigans and you get to today.
* Him or any other figures that were responsible for the “creation” of the new religion
If that’s the case, why is it that every single evangelical pastor, on TV, is absolutely guilty of using The Lord’s Name in Vain?
That refers to attempting to cast magic using The Lord’s Name, not cuss words.
sharing their faith respectfully
How can you respectfully tell someone that they will burn for all eternity for not following the same book you do?
You should probably look up what evangelical actually means then: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism
It requires proselytizing.
But they don’t like being called fundamentalist zealots and they get less angry if you use terms that make them appear less crazy.
If someone’s out trying to bring about a second Holocaust, you can call them a Nazi. It wouldn’t be right to call them “someone with an old German mindset.”
Some other phrases you can throw at them for greater impact:
- God will send you to hell for doing that
- Jesus would never approve of you
- You lack God in your life
- You’re blindly following Satan’s lies
Remember when he flipped all those tables because people where trading in church. Then the church went ahead and did trading in church, sure he’d love all those private jets and cars.
I saw a documentary about them, about a children’s camp. The indoctrination, mind control and child abuse sure would send you to a hell if it would exist. Next to that, the women running the camp were talking in jibberish tonge, which is the devils work according to the Bible. The irony is great.
“It’s not jibberish, it’s speaking in toooongueeees!!! Like that time the holy spirit did something with someone, it’s in the bible!! Where? You’d know if you read it!!!”
what’s the name? i’d like to watch it
Jesus camp
This is all funny until you do it. Trying this kind of shit in 2009 as I was starting to fully transition got me a full swing baseball bat to my hip. I laid there for maybe 30 mins before I could crawl to a phone.
From a safety standpoint, please don’t do this. Just flip them off as you walk away and then vote as if your life depends on it, because it just may.
That both tracks and also says all anyone needs to hear about how much they actually believe in their religion that says to turn the other cheek. Holy hell
Supply side Jesus approves though
A mod deleted my comment and suggested I approach in a better way. I apologize for my presentation.
You were righteously angry. And, it’s definitely not ethical for the other to respond to words with physical violence.
I’m a multiple-minority with a strong sense of justice. I speak from experience when I say: We must pick our battles and means wisely, particularly since the orange baffoon emboldened a wide scope and magnitude of hatred.
I wasn’t there. But, it seems almost certain this was not a wise battle for you to fight alone, perhaps at all. There’s almost certainly something you should learn from this. And, whatever it is to be learned, it’s definitely not to silence yourself and advocate others follow.
If you tell us more and solicit others’ input then maybe there’s insight we could offer. And, if this isn’t a safe enough space to do that, PM me. I’ll share a place where such a post would be very well-received.
Gotta organize against physical violence any time of the day. Exercising violence to silence the voices that do not call to violence themselves should become unthinkable.
You ran your mouth in enemy territory without backup. That was dumb for several reasons. You should be asking questions instead of advocating for others to live in fear with you.
Literally the shittiest take you could have. Go stick your dick in a working light socket
I’m sorry that happened to you but I appreciate you warning people of the dangers of being confrontational with these people.
It’s not worth it. You won’t change their mind, people nearby aren’t going to clap for you, you’re just unnecessarily putting yourself in harms way because many of these people are not kind, they will respond aggressively.
And to add, they will only fight if they have an unfair advantage (more people, better weapons, etc). It’s better to defend your own ground if necessary.
This is why everyone who isn’t a cis hetero white Christian man absolutely needs to buy a gun and learn how to use it. It’s your job to defend yourself. (Don’t get me wrong, allies are great, and people should be helping each other against the bigots, but end of the day, you’re alone, gotta defend yourself)
Edit: also, I’m really sorry that happened, not trying to blame the victim, just advocating for people taking their power back
In most countries you can’t buy a gun. Then again in most places that kind of violence carries significant jail time.
Oh, yeah I meant in the US… Sorry to be US centric
Oh fuck off. This argument only gets upvoted here when it’s specifically not for the straight white males? I can read the room and the room can go fuck itself.
Here’s what you should have said:
Everyone should buy a gun and learn how to use it, maintain it, secure it, and exercise restraint when you’re just mad at someone. It’s your job to defend yourself because anything can happen in the world. People should be helping each other overcome violent people.
You don’t have to be a gun nut to have something worth protecting(like idk, your life?) and protect it.
Did you sue them?
No. Hard to do when there was no way to identify them. I mouthed off at a gas station, and before I could react, a dude jumped out of a truck and assaulted me.
Surely the gas station had cameras?
We then know that they were white, were wearing clothing and the police says there were very fine people on both sides of this altercation.
But God forbid you try to drive of without paying. Then: believe it or not, straight to jail.
Fucking me sideways, I am so sorry you went though that.
Fun! How pious of them.
Oh no. I am the one who knocks. I can be bold because of my particular fitness and low aversion to the idea of hurting people.
Do not hurt people unless they were the initiators. Even if you can.
Well yeah. I don’t seek out hurting anyone. I just don’t get bothered by the idea of shutting down an aggressor with force. Like, I seem to be sociopathic a bit. Definitely not feelingless, but kinda toned down feelings.
i dont think you will be able to vote away religious fundamentalism.
maybe bring a bat next time you are feeling cheeky, just in case.
Depending on the jurisdiction, always have a baseball and potentially gloves with you as well. Having only a baseball bat can be considered as either possession of a weapon or having an intent to cause harm I think, which can really backfire when authorities get involved.
IANAL, and anyone reading should consult their local laws surrounding self-defence before carrying items for the express purpose of self-defence
And the thing is, unlike someone’s sexual orientation, which they are born with, someone’s religious beliefs are actually a choice. A lifestyle, if you so will. They’re not something you’re born with, but something you’re taught.
If no kids were indoctrinated into religion, we would be significantly less religious people, I can dream.
The majority of people need to be taught religion when their kids to believe in it before they develop their critical thinking skills, once you’re an adult and have critical thinking skills it takes a much more unintelligent or wishful thinking person to invest in the idea of religion.
I like the thought exercise of; consider you as you are now never heard of religion/higher powers/all the gods. Now picture yourself being spoken to by a pastor of the lord Jesus christ. You’d think this guy is absolutely batshit and shouldn’t be out walking around. Certainly at the very least not be allowed to indoctrin more to their causw within a tax free building paid for largely by taxes.
This post doesn’t have a date on it because it’s from like 2010. They’ve moved on to saying the same things about trans people.
Is Lemmy popular enough to complain about reposts yet?
No, it’s our only posts.
I just don’t understand why they feel they have to flaunt their religion. Like, we get it, you worship a zombie-corpse God and you really, really dont understand the concept of eternity but you don’t have to make it your whole personality.
Xians are so friendly especially the part where they believe that I am going to suffer for eternity in a lake of fire.
Feel the love.
No hate like Christian love.
As a Christian, I don’t believe the Bible because I agree with it and like it. I believe in it because I’m convinced it’s true. Kinda sounds like to me “pro vaccine are so hateful! Saying if I don’t take the vaccine I’ll get sick and die!”
“2000 year old goat herder fairytales are more real to me than consistently tested and verified modern scientific findings”
And what do modern scientific findings say?
Here is a very brief summary…
Nothing in that article about Christianity
Shocker.
Genuine question. What convinces you that Bible is true? And among Abrahamic religions, why is this particular book true? Why do you accept “update” to Torah (that is, the Christian Bible), but not “update” to the Christian Bible (Quran)? Or do I miss the point?
Glad you asked! I’ll start with the Torah. One of the central purposes of Judaism was and is waiting for the Messiah. It even makes its way into modern day Judaism. The likes of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 are clearly about Jesus of Nazareth. The records we have about Jesus consistently show to Him being perfect, doing miracles, being a good teacher, claiming to be the messiah and even God, and then He was crucified in the most humiliating way, died, and was buried. But on the third day He rose again from the dead and was seen by quite a few, who were so convinced they ended up entering a world of persecution and difficulty, many died. Because they refused to renounce that they had seen Him risen.
As historical records go- the Bible is pretty comprehensive for records of its time. Most other people we know about have their records dating to hundreds of years after their existence. Jesus’ records were written within the lifetime of people who would have known Him. And they’re pretty consistent, unlike legends which rapidly evolve with time. The Bible has been pretty much the same. Give or take some less important passages, though.
Now, there are a load of problems with Islam and the Qur’an, but I’ll keep it concise to how the Qur’an disproves itself. The Qur’an makes these points: The Gospel is the word of allah: 3:3-4 No one can change allah’s words: 18:27 Strongly implies that the Christians had the Gospel when the Qur’an was written: 7:157 Christians should judge by the Gospel: 5:47
The Qur’an also denies the death of Jesus and His divinity, which the Bible claims. So it’s in obvious contradiction. So judging by the Gospel, Islam is false. And the Gospel cannot be corrupted as the Qur’an recommends the Gospel and claims allah’s words cannot be corrupted.
Paul also gives us this warning: Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Considering the Qur’an apparently was revealed to Mohammed by an “angel”… Yeah…
The Islamic dilemma explained in a YouTube video
I hope this makes sense
Interesting - will read more about that Quran contradiction. Thanks!
Also, to clarify, the reason you believe that Bible holds actual historical value is that, unlike legends and stories, it is more or less consistent?
Pretty much. Also, we tend to accept facts like “Julius Caesar was born in Subaru” when our only source is some guy said that 200 years after he was born. So in terms of Historical records, the New Testament is actually pretty contemporary, being written mere decades after Jesus existed. My faith primarily hinges on Jesus’ and the New Testament
So ain’t that the reason to doubt that Caesar was born in Subaru and seek more evidence, as opposed to believe the New Testament? Also, given the supernatural claims about Jesus, shouldn’t it be supplied with extraordinary evidence?
We know for sure that Caesar did exist and was the Roman dictator, for example. We also have contemporary sources on his life - accounts of Cicero, for example, or Sallust.
Can we say for sure that Jesus did exist, and, especially important, has actually created any miracles?
And also, what about evidence for the existence of Buddha, for example? Did he never exist or he never attained nirvana, or he falsely believed he switched to some supernatural state while this was all mental? Or did it all exist in parralel?
Also possible that a good dude who preached love and kindness went into a coma when the tyrants put him on a cross, and then woke up a few days later, with no involvement whatsoever from the creator.
So you’re suggesting a guy who was ruthlessly beaten and crucified , then stabbed in the side revealing that his lung had collapsed, simply recovered after two nights in a tomb and pushed a boulder out of the way, without the armed guards noticing? And who were the dudes just chilling there? And how do you explain the ascension into heaven?
It is possible, but I’m not buying it
That’s fair, and you’re entitled to believe what you like.
My faith tells me that the possible (though unlikely) set of events must be true, as the alternative is impossible and just as unlikely.
One of these things is not like the other…
There’s this spook in their religion that says everyone who’s not them will get tortured forever in hell so save as many as you can, but even the ones who don’t quite buy that aspect still have its lingering relative of “well if you’re gonna be a casual you ought to at least let them know how great it is”
“Worship me as a god or ill have you tortured for all eternity.”
Christians: yep, I see no problem with this. Its definitely not an abusive relationship.
“I love you more than you can understand, but I will use my unlimited cosmic power to hide from you, and I will never interact with you or help nudge all the diverging religions in the right direction. The fate of your immortal soul, your worth as a human being, and your relationship with me will depend on whether you think I exist and kiss my ass despite me using my aforementioned unlimited cosmic power to hide my very existence from you.”
Many humans: ooh I love a good mystery!
It’s like the ultimate rich deadbeat dad who you never get to see. The Elon Musk of the supernatural world, if you will.
You know!
Now, if you could step round all the Buddhists, Muslims etc. trying to appeal their fate because they “dedicated their lives to helping starving children” and “there’s no way we could have know ln about you” or whatever. Yeah, you should have thought about that before you became a sinner shouldn’t you! Yeah, thats what i thought…
No, no, I don’t care what you did. So long as you’re really sorry for not being perfect,
Like me
, acept me as your God and are willing to worship me forever and ever and ever, you can come right on in. Turns out, ultimately, I don’t care about good or bad that much. I want people who will worship me and tell me I’m good and kind, unlike like those disgusting sinners I’m torturing forever.
Funny how God seems so much like a shitty human ruler personality, but combined with the ultimate power fantasy. Gee I wonder how that happened.
I mean, Christianity is the largest religion and varying properties and various concepts of a Jesus has infiltrated basically every main religion apart from Judaism. Which is a pretty big nudge. Anytime God does show Himself, people come up with all sorts of excuses not to believe. You also need to realise while God is infinitely merciful, He’s also infinitely just.
A question for you would be: how would you balance that out? Being infinitely merciful and infinitely just?
I don’t consider “a dude might have existed 2000 years ago and built an enduring reputation” to be very compelling. Especially not while living in a world where everybody around me has instant access to the whole of human knowledge and yet so many stay disconnected from reality.
I mean if he wanted to, he could materialize in front of every single one of us like Doctor Manhattan to give us reassurance and a taste of being in the presence of his light. He knows what each of us needs in order to be brought into the faith. Yet, he presents us with a world indistinguishable from one where he doesn’t exist, and he has gifted us with these incredible conscious intelligent minds, and his main rule of existence is that we don’t use that intelligence to explore the world he’s given us and instead rely on some ancient translated and edited texts.
The infinitely merciful and infinitely just thing seems to me like a simple logical contradiction along the lines of asking whether God can create a stone so big that he himself cannot lift it. Isn’t the whole point of showing mercy that you let somebody off the hook instead of making them submit to what would otherwise be just?
If God were to act like a door-to-door salesman, when would he show up? “Oh, I haven’t believed yet because he hasn’t shown up yet”. He showed up once for all. You say He gives us a world indistinguishable from one where He doesn’t exist- but this doesn’t make sense either and isn’t even scientific. What do you think the difference in the world would be? Also again, the vast majority of people on earth have heard about Jesus. It’s hardly an obscure secret.
He gives us free will and respects our decision.
Mercy isn’t the opposite of justice. Unjust is when you let people get away with things. God has mercy on those who are truly repentant and trust in His sacrifice as their salvation.
Good works aren’t exceptional. To do good is what’s expected of us. So when we do something wrong, we can’t undo it. A good driver is someone who follows all of the rules. If you go through a red stoplight, you can’t make it up by stopping at three more. Our sin required the perfect and infinite sacrifice - which is God Himself.
What do you mean when you say that God has shown himself?
Jesus.
🤨
Is Jesus in the room with you right now?
They proselytize because of a prophecy, that has already been fulfilled. The prophecy said that once there were Christians world wide, Christ would return. Since they don’t recognize the guy that fit the bill, they assume that prophecy hasn’t been fulfilled, and they need more Christians everywhere.
It basically caused the 7th Day Adventists, and The Jehovah’s Witnesses to be founded. Funny thing was they got the year right, and then completely missed everything else.
Wait who’s the guy who fit the bill???
The Báb and Baha’u’llah were born directly descended from David, and declared their missions in 1844 and 1863 respectively, having never actually met each other, but The Báb specifically named Baha’u’llah as his successor just before taking three regiments worth of lead to the face, for the second time that month.
Fed up of all their “holy days” every year. When is it unholy day?
Every day because we’re all sinful
when i find my first weed dealer im celebrating that as my unholy day lmao
you really, really dont understand the concept of eternity
can you explain?
Sure. If you’ll indulge me, its best explained by a kind of story.
Say you got into heaven and you think “ok, I always wanted to play golf while I was alive.” So, you play golf every day for 10,000 years. Afterwhich, you can play an 18 hole game in 18 shots, one handed. Then you think "well, I always wanted to learn the piano. So you learn the piano for a million years. Afterwhich you can play every song ever written, perfectly, by heart and with your feet. Then you think “ok, well I always wanted to learn lots of things.” So, you read everything ever written. More so, you learn every language ever, so you can read everything ever written, in its original language. This keeps you occupied for a billion years (and I’m being very generous there).
Now, maybe not the first, maybe not the second or third but, by the 7th or 8th hundred, thousand billion septillion years, you might start getting a little bit bored. By the 9th, existence will be indistinguishable from hell and you still won’t be even 0.00000000000001% of the way through eternity.
So, you go to God and ask “hey, I’ve done everything ever. Time means nothing to me. Any amount I spend on something, I can always spend infinitely more on something else. Anything I do, I master. Whats the point? I don’t understand.”
God then replies, its not that you don’t understand. Its that you finally understand the meaning of heaven and now you’re able to accept your own death.
The other alternative is that its eternal worship of God which would be hell. Some claim God’s godness will make that all not true. However, the you that would be ok with eternity would be so far removed from you that it wouldn’t be you at all but something else entirely.
I hope i explained that well enough.
thank u for explaining that was a really good read!!! i agree that eternity in heaven would be psychological torture after a while and at least in hell you have the simulation of being burnt
As an ex-Christian I find it amusing that you chose to explain via parable. :)
However, I think there are some flaws to your story. You seem to assume that Heaven would be like getting permanently sealed into your own personal holodeck, alone, no contact with anyone but the entity that put you there, the computer loaded with complete records of everything that had existed up to the moment of your death but never updated beyond that. It’s all so very static. Of course you would eventually go mad; what you’re describing is just a more comfortable version of solitary confinement!
It’s also not how Heaven was described to me when I still went to church. Some claimed we would all be sitting on clouds singing praise songs, forever experiencing a state of mindless ecstasy. (Which doesn’t sound like much of an improvement.) Others claimed the Bible says we will be rulers in Heaven, and how can you be a ruler without something to rule over? (That seemed a little better, but I also don’t really want to be some kind of king imposing my will on others.)
The most appealing concept of Heaven I’ve encountered so far is the one portrayed in the Housepets! comic. It’s just another place, but one where everyone has agency and security and has been healed of whatever traumas ailed them in life. They are free to build, create, share, and grow as they like. You can still fuck off and become a hermit if you really want to, but most people choose to hang out in a big city. Some have jobs but there is no money or material needs; they work because they enjoy it or because they believe it’s worth doing. One of the characters even chose to open a free massage parlor because they like helping people relax and wanted more opportunities to do that. And the mortal world still exists, so there are always new people to meet and new stories to read (or write!)
I could maybe spend eternity in a place like that. And if I had to change to make eternal existence possible, well, I’m not the same person I was five years ago and I have no desire to still be the same person five years in the future. I think if Heaven did exist, then Purgatory must also. Not as a place of punishment, but of healing. This world will crush your soul, and even the purest of saints (perhaps especially the purest of saints) carries too much pain and trauma with them for any place they exist to be a paradise. I think you’re right that in order to be okay with eternity we would need to be changed into something unlike our current selves.
Sorry this got so long and rambley. I’ve spent a lot of time wondering what kind of hypothetical afterlife could possibly make this all worth it.
Ha, yeah, the format did feel very fitting.
Oh, don’t worry, there’ll be plenty of time to catch up and hang out with whoever you like. In fact, you could spend at million years with everyone who ever existed, individually, and you would still have plenty of time left over…
because its eternity
Then what?
I didn’t mention all the things a person could do but that wasn’t meant to indicate that they couldn’t do other things with their time as, ultimately, they would end up at the same place. Please feel free to swap them out with anything you like.
Fair enough but neither of those match what bible says. It just says heaven is “where gods praise is eternal” which is pretty ominous, if taken literally.
If heaven existed, there’s no reason the presume purgatory must also exist. Especially as purgatory was just made up by medieval monks looking from a new revenue stream. There’s no purgatory mentioned in the bible and only one ruler in heaven.
To me, the version of us that would be ok with eternity would be so far removed from us as to make the line “you will go the heaven” a lie.
Mostly, people find problems with it as they can’t yet fully let go of eternalism.
