Censorship of dissidence discussions due to “misinformation,” “disinformation,” and only allowing “science.”
Our science institutions and media are just as corrupt as our politicians; that is why critical thinking should be encouraged instead of more censorship to baby the people.
🤦♀️
Keeping predatory grifters away from health discourse is on a different level than discussions of differing opinions.
This person you’re replying to is basically Lemmy’s Goebbels.
You really like to smear people anywhere you go.
Can’t expect much from Satan, you bring shame to your name.
What are your thoughts on the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
Oh no… (We are about to see an explosion)
No they’ll just ignore it.
So slightly right of Stalin? We know how you love to name call people
I don’t understand your comment, can you explain it please?
You like to call people names. I’ve seen you around, you do it a bit more often than most.
I don’t recognize you, what communities do you frequent?
You can just check my post history, it’s public. But I mainly just go around on /all
Liar calls scrubbing of misinformation “censorship”. In other news, bear shits in woods. More at 11.
liar
Joining in on the lemmy circle jerk of name calling those that don’t fall in line to your status quo.
Can you explain why you believe that the science institutions are corrupt?
it’s the exercise of soft power from the state that has always made academic pursuits suspect, if you go against the narrative you might find your funding cut. but I’m sure OP can speak for themselves.
How can you go against the narrative before you publish the research with some funding?
it’s the threat of losing funding not the withholding of funding before the fact.
self censorship is much cheaper than any other form of enforcement.
and you think publishing won’t allow journals to sell stories to the press and sell more copies and shake up the industry, leading to awareness and campaigns to fund the scientist? there’s like no information online on self-censorship in academia, not even from 2nd world countries, so this sounds really sketchy.
that would be a nice world to live in wouldn’t it.
the one thing that distinguishes “conspiracy” theories from plausible theories is the absence of evidence
As someone who’s been a STEM researcher for about a decade, this person has no clue what they are talking about
Are you sure you’re not just self-censoring?
how many reproduction studies have you had published?
reproduction studies
What the hell are you talking about, what is a reproduction study?
You either mean a reproducible study or a study specifically on something reproducing which is irrelevant. Again you don’t even know what you are talking about and 3 from college, I work in industry now so I don’t publish. We also directly collaborate with a large university and a national laboratory, so I know a thing or two about how grant funding is acquired from both an academic and industrial side(industries such as mine actually fund studies that do get publicly published). There are absolutely issues with politics in academia, it just isn’t what you are describing.
The mods were removed because they were deleting factual information
Cats are obligate carnivores. Forcing them on a vegan diet is animal abuse
I am not disputing that claim.
I am pointing out the “science” that started the whole event.
IIRC, it was a reputable source, not just some random website talking conspiracies.
I’m sure I’d enjoy a vegan cat. Probably less chewy.
Oh they just drank a halfn’half baybeeee (vegan police noises)
Until I joined Lemmy I had no idea how militant vegans could be. I sorta just assumed they were a different brand of vegetarian.
I’m not opposed to their ideaology in any way, but after reading the comments on a few posts that found their way into my feed… I had to block their communities. It didn’t seem likely that I’d be reading any productive discourse there.
If Lemmy had its version of r/atheist users, they’re either vegan, Linux obsessed, or politics obsessed.
Hey. Do you have time to talk about our lord and saviour, Linus Torvalds?
Oh yeah, I love Linus Tech Tips, it’s one of my favorite YouTubes.
Savior? Do you mean Terry Davis, AKA King Terry the Terrible?
It would have to be the Linux crowd, just by force of numbers.
oh there’s a shitton of r/atheists here too, and some are supermods.
Quite a bit of their content is antagonizing and alienating. What a shame.
Between them and Linux evangelicals, this place can be pretty annoying at times.
Spoken like a meat eating windows user
Windows eating meat user
Do you think that’s an insult?
No. If he wanted to insult you, he’d call you a MacOS User /s
meat eating windows user (derogatory)
Can I get this on a name tag?
Oh you must also be a reddit uaer… Here you go: /s
Lol pretty sure /s has been around LONG before Reddit
reddit is like 20 years old and rose to prominence in the web 2.0 boom. I’m pretty sure you’re wrong
I tried to find historical articles about it, but couldn’t find any. But I swear I used it and saw it all the way back in the AIMs chatroom dialup days
You know I really hate vegans, but I FUCKING REALLY HATE Linux evangelicals, and they are FUCKING EVERYWHERE HERE.
Anyway, fuck veganism and linux
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as vegan, is in fact, GNU/vegan, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus vegan.
I use arch btw
I’ve just discovered a new game: start posting how you love windows, meat and Elon, place bets who will attack you first
Don’t forget to support capitalism as well!
It was honestly more fun to irk the “grammer” police on reddit using misspellings and improper vocabulary.
to irk the “grammer” police on reddit
Hmm…
*Squints*
You done messed up.
to irk the “grammer” police on Reddit
FTFY
I see, I still giggle when I do it, on Lemmy to!
My money would be on Elon. Windows users and carnivores are quite common here, but hatred of The Musk is near universal.
Linux evangelicals
We just want to save your code from eternal damnation
‘Plant based’ was a rebrand of veganism because of what vegans did to veganism.
In 5+ decades of living I have never once met a sane vegan, not once.
And I’ve met hundreds…
I have met 1 and married her. But yo be fair she is just vegetarian whi developed a dairy allergy knocking out the non veg part of her diet
Makes a dumb good steak too
I have to admit, diet restriction vegans (and not the ones that just think meat is icky and can get a doctor to sign off on it) do not fall into the general stereotype but then only one of them ever had a chance to speak to me and she would sneak chicken occasionally so I don’t really consider her vegan as such. Also she was a work associate and I normally never bring up the subject in the office.
There may be reasonable vegans out there, and I have actively sought them on forums and IRL through school clubs and protests. I have never IRL raised my voice, never used a derogatory label harsher than ‘leafeater’ and that only once. Yet I am so ridiculously burned out by the arguments and harsh words I’ve endured that I’m done holding any hope out any longer.
You sound like what I like to call a “debatist.” No one wants to be challenged on their personal choices. You don’t seem to be approaching this concept with an open mind. Can you define what makes anything they say unreasonable? I am not vegan, but I can recognize, definitively, that veganism is better for the environment (by far), healthy (if you make sure you’re getting all the nutrients you need, just like any diet), and less cruel to animals. You can choose to disagree that those conclusions mean you need to cut out animal products, but those aren’t opinions up for debate. Farming meat is far worse for the environment, vegan diets are perfectly healthy, and obviously, killing animals isn’t something the animal wants.
Again, you can disagree with their conclusion that those reasons mean you shouldn’t eat animal products, but denying that they’re true is like denying climate change. I’m not vegan, so clearly I didn’t come to the same conclusion, but I’m not trying to purport that anyone that does is somehow unreasonable.
No one wants to be challenged on their personal choices.
Yet that is what every vegan does to carnists, in many cases very viciously. I am NOT going up to vegans and telling them to stop being vegan, nor am I judging them for their dietary choices. I ask them questions like ‘What would be your plans for all the current living domesticated animals in the hypothetical situation where eating meat is outlawed?’ and they flip their shit on a regular basis. I go out of my way to present everything I ask as neutral as possible but all my effort has never once mattered.
illing animals isn’t something the animal wants.
I think you are attributing human qualities to nonhuman consciousnesses. There’s a lot of evidence that the concept of death doesn’t even exist in most animal minds, as well as the fact that animals in the wild suffer FAR more disease, discomfort, illness and death than domesticated and cared for livestock.
“debatist”
That isn’t even a real word… I’m sorry I can’t take you seriously anymore.
Every vegan
Factually incorrect and anecdotal
the concept of death doesn’t even exist in most animal minds
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8602129/
Good read, though anyone that’s seen a pet mourn their owner or their friend knows that’s not true already.
can’t take you seriously anymore
It’s a portmanteau of debater and statist. Frankly, I don’t care what you think about me. You’re clearly biased beyond any reason as to the motives of others, to the point of making false blanket statements about entire groups. Any time someone says “all _____ are _____,” there is a problem and they should be questioned. Did the vegans you approach solicit your question? If they did not, then mind your own business. If they did, and “flip their shit,” (X to doubt on the reliability of this narrator) then that one person had an issue. The sheer fact that you can easily find very chill vegans online or irl without much effort means you’re a statistical anomaly, an asshole, or misrepresenting the truth.
I call those ideolgical vegans and yes they drive me nuts too
In respect for your wife and those like her, from now on I will try and use ‘ideological vegan’ to describe the specific subgrouping.
Thanks for being the one sane person in this thread.
For the most part, the “unreasonable vegan” stereotype comes from two places.
- Confirmation bias. Veganism makes people uncomfortable with their own decisions, so people spread around the most outrageous stories about vegans as a defense mechanism. This is the same thing that happens in various circles with anyone whose mere existence makes other people insecure; e.g., teetotalers, or polyamorous people.
- Just plain disagreeing with them. There are lots of vegan arguments that are logically valid, but they sound outrageous if you don’t already agree with them. People have trouble looking past their initial emotional reactions, so they respond to logically valid arguments with mere incredulity.
There’s a 3rd source: Trying for 3 decades to have a reasonable conversation with one, with hundreds of attempts made.
I’d be interested in seeing a trace of one of those conversations.
No you wouldn’t, they never go anywhere except to heated exchanges of unpleasant labels.
There’s really no use in talking to them, nor anything to be learned or won. It’s just losses for everyone.
I am a vegan. Is this conversation unreasonable?
Are you talking to the same person, or the same few people, repeatedly? There certainly are people out there who just are unreasonable. You can’t expect individuals to change.
Otherwise, I guess (and I admit that this is biased in my favor) that you simply disagree with each other at a foundational level, and that’s causing you to talk past each other.
I think that most people don’t really know how to discourse with people who have differing ethical foundations, because it can lead to situations where a person who meets all the societal criteria of a “good person” is nonetheless committing (according to whatever ethical precepts) a horrible crime. But, in this context, accusing someone of committing a horrible crime is not unreasonable; in fact, it’s too reasonable; it involves prioritizing reason over tact and politeness.
Are you talking to the same person, or the same few people, repeatedly?
Roughly 10% are repeat conversations, though I’ve rarely had a contact be kept past 3 exchanges, and not a ‘few’ people by any metric.
you simply disagree with each other at a foundational level, and that’s causing you to talk past each other.
I appreciate how you are trying to make this a ‘both sides’ thing, but it really isn’t and I have no way of imparting 30 years of frustrating experience in a way you will find meaningful.
Since you claim to be a reasonable vegan, then maybe this is the best place for this:
-
What are your plans for all the currently living domesticated animals if, hypothetically, meat eating is made illegal?
-
Have you ever considered that being raised by humans for consumption is literally the most wildly successful species survival strategy that natural selection has ever thrown up? Literally no wild animal thrives as well as a cared for domesticated example, and domesticated animals released in the wild have an abysmal survival rate. (it is literally animal cruelty to release most domesticated animals into the wild, with the exception of pigs. They can re-adapt no problems)
-
Meat is one of the most nutrient dense foods out there and is likely the entire reason we were able to develop these incredibly energy and nutrient expensive brains, have you considered what the long term species ramifications are for us if we choose to stop a standard practice that has been with us since before our species was even human yet?
-
What is your stance on pets?
-
Do you not think the critical need for specific supplements to maintain good health is a sign that the diet was never intended for our normal operation?
-
I would like to hear your opinion on parents raising their infants to be vegan from birth.
These are the questions I would usually ask to vegans I meet in the world and online. Most responses are immediate verbal abuse and a refusal to continue communications.
I sincerely hope you are a better person than that and I can FINALLY have this discussion start to finish.
-
Having personally known several perfectly normal and sane vegans, maybe your “reasonable conversation” is a bit more combative than you believe. Vegans are just normal people. Some will be crazy. Some will be normal. If your experience with your hundreds of vegans you’ve met is 100% unreasonable, then you’re definitely the problem. Someone choosing to avoid animal products for personal health or environmental reasons, or any other personal reason, is inherently not unreasonable. They might be unreasonable if they try to force their ideas on others, but defending their own choices isn’t unreasonable. Tone down your confirmation bias and aggression, and you might find that just like every large enough group, people are still people and they vary.
Edit: for the record, I’m not vegan.
Yep, that’s always the response. 'it’s not the inherent radicalism of vegan ideology that is the problem, but the fact that you didn’t talk nice to them (which I am assuming because I wasn’t there).
Reported and blocked.
What radicalism? What part of that ideal is radical? Also, a bizarre reaction. “My beliefs were challenged in the slightest, therefore this person must be silenced.” Weirdo.
Calling a group of people insane is so cool and good 👍🏻
I’m not vegan. But I find it very shady to talk shit about people like this.
Some seeming innocent ideals breed significantly more fanaticism across all class and culture lines, we should all have learned that by now.
Crazy, I know tons of vegans and never met an insane one.
Vegans being annoying was a thing awhile ago, but they really chilled out. This is a smaller band of die-hards.
“Chilling out” is of course a terrible metric when animal abuse is on the line but being good to animals would make you vegetarian, not vegan, and yet that was never where the righteousness was coming from.
I was vegan for 8 years and during that time I didn’t talk to anyone about it other than to say, “I don’t eat that.”
I say that to say this - vegans are insufferable and a large reason why I quit the community and went back to omnivore. Even after 8 years, other vegans were still ‘more vegan’ and would nitpick the dumbest stuff.
“Bro, did you eat a date? That killed a bee or something. Not cool.”
Shut up with that. Let me eat my damn fruit.
I was healthier though. But, to be fair, I was younger.
"Bro, did you eat a date? That killed a bee or something. Not cool.”
I’m a level 5 vegan. I won’t eat anything that casts a shadow.
I’m a level 2 proto-vegan, though it’s functionally equivalent to a level 8 in normal terms I think.
Anyway, our food is cultivated in an open source orchard (the genomes are all fully sequenced) using plea bargains with the surrounding woodland, where we encourage feral animals to aerate and urinate on the soil and we sensually assist in the procreation of the plant reproduction taking a 1%-5% crop yield over what the flies do not touch.
Now it reminded me of Vladimir Sorokin’s “Horse soup”. Time to read it again.
Vladimir Sorokin’s “Horse soup”
https://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-horse-soup/#gsc.tab=0
(Reads blurb. What the actual fuck.)
You know what, it’s so much easier to say you’re an omnivore and end up eating meat once a year than to say you are a vegan who makes an exception about once a year. The first label would earn you a “wait so you’re basically vegan?!” vs “you’re not vegan then and you’re a dirty cheater”.
exactly. you choose your labels to best express your positions.
As you might have experienced, it’s pretty hard to be vegan in a carnist world. People talk about animal abuse all the time, they confront you all the time, make fun of you. Most don’t want to talk about it, they want to shut you up. The hate and ignorance is strong and different people react diffrently to that situation. Some stay quiet, like yourself, some get vocal. Some debate, some get angry. Calling vegans insufferable is like calling gays insufferable, or feminists. Some might be. We have recognized a major injustice and we want to change it.
“Bro, did you eat a date? That killed a bee or something. Not cool.”
That’s rage bait and you made it up. Why would anyone say that?
Hey bud you really need to get off the cross. You just compared your eating preferences which are 100% a choice to someone being born homosexual and not wanting to be killed for it or being born/transitioning to a woman and wanting the same basic human rights as the other half of our species. Honestly you need to just shut up and think about that for a hot second.
I oppose racism, sexism, trans- and homophobia. And I oppose speciesism as well. It’s the same system: One group considers another group as less valuable and exploits, abuses or fights them.
You just draw the line at you own species.
Animals are innocent, vulnerable and easy to abuse because they don’t have a voice and don’t understand the situation we put them in. If they were human children or mentally disabled humans, we would protect them from harm because of who they are. Instead, we do the most horrible things to them, we take their freedom, their babies, their lifes. In factories, on an industrial scale. Because a pig is just a pig, right?EDIT: Please reply, don’t just silently downvote. What’s your refutation?
What are you talking about? Don’t you also draw a line when you choose to eat plants? I don’t think they would agree to that. Untill humans develop the ability to photosynthesize, we are going to have to eat other species, there’s no way around it.
PLANTS HAVE FEELINGS TOO
is #22 on the Vegan Bullshit Bingo:No, they do not. There is no serious study to suggest that they do. Plants do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli. If you really care that much about the welfare of plants, you should go vegan, since many more plants “die” for animal feeding. Do you feel bad while mowing your lawn? And would you rather rescue a potted plant than a dog from a burning house? Is docking pig tails the same as branch trimming to you? Question upon question…
If you really care that much about the welfare of plants, you should go vegan, since many more plants “die” for animal feeding.
the point is that they don’t care about the welfare of plants and you don’t either. tehy also eat animals. i think you can put it together.
Don’t you also draw a line when you choose to eat plants?
I think there’s a reasonable distinction here. You would presumably also draw a line between a conscious human and a brain dead human that won’t ever be conscious again. As far as we can reasonably tell, consciousness requires a brain. Dogs and pigs have brains, so maybe we shouldn’t torture and kill them on factory farms. We can also see them suffering and measure their physical reaction to it.
Of course there’s a possibility that plants have some kind of consciousness too, but 1. that’s speculation and 2. there’s no way around farming them, as you have said yourself:
Untill humans develop the ability to photosynthesize, we are going to have to eat other species, there’s no way around it.
Farming animals will always require far more plant deaths than growing plants for human consumption. These animals have to grow for months before being slaughtered and literally eat tons of animal feed in that time.
Therefore, plant-based food minimizes both animal suffering and deaths as well as plant deaths.
I’m not convinced that plant deaths are an ethical issue in of themselves, but farming has environmental implications so it makes sense to minimize the food that needs to be grown and make the farming as environmentally friendly as reasonably possible.
no one wants to torture animals.
the vast majority of plant matter fed to animals is waste product. they eat parts of plants that people can’t or won’t eat. so those plants are killed first for us, then the animals. and the point of the plant objection is not the amount of suffering, but the fact that no one cares if plants are killed, and only vegetarians and vegans care if animals are killed
You are not the animals.
At best you’re a shitty white knight for the animals. You’re not even an ally if this is how you conduct yourself.
You just compared your eating preferences which are 100% a choice to someone being born homosexual and not wanting to be killed for it
All the animals on factory farms didn’t choose to be born there and don’t want to be killed either.
It’s not about the sensitivities of humans, but the insane suffering of animals in this system of oppression.
You’re not the animals. You’re not even a good spokesperson for the animals.
You don’t give a shit about the animals. You’re just a pathetic histrionic giving into your tendencies here to tank a conversation for a hit.
You’re not the animals.
I literally wrote that this isn’t about me/humans, so yes, obviously.
There are many groups that are suffering and that I’m not part of, and I still care about what’s happening to them and want the suffering to end. It seems like most lemmy users share that sentiment when it comes to oppressed humans, so I really don’t get what’s so hard to understand about that when I extend it to animals.
You might have the opinion that factory farming isn’t a social justice issue, fine. Me having a different opinion doesn’t negatively affect you in any way. Why are you so pissed at me just because I see it differently?
You jumped in on a conversation where a person compared veganism as if it’s a persecution comparable to the LBGTQ.
Veganism is A diet choice. That’s all it is. That is all you’re doing here.
This is not you living as a member of the LBGTQ.
You are not a suffragette.
There will be no pivoting off of it here today and play shitty white knight for the animals.
If all yall got off the crosses we could donate all the wood and nails to Habitat for Humanity.
Just goes to show how little you care about others suffering. Social justice for me but not for others (those who I consider interior).
Correct.
he is confused with figs. which are pollinated by wasps. and some vegans choose to eat them and some don’t. it’s really not that controversial.
What in the actual fuck. You are comparing yourself to LBGTQ and what they’ve had to endure???
You think your struggle is anything like feminism???
Maybe throw in some slavery there. Ya know, get all your basis of inappropriate covered.
Might as well go whole ass with the bullshit you’re pulling here.
you are choosing a lifestyle. Not even that. You’re choosing what you consume. That’s it. You are not persecuted for something that is NOT a choice you made. You are NOT being persecute for what appearance you were born into.
It is a far cry from being watched out for and spotted and then targetted to how vegans target others.
Stop appropriating an actual minority group that had to defend their rights just to live with the same rights as others.
You talk like you’re the actual cow getting slaughtered for burgers.
you’re not that cow either.
And you’re not even a good spokesperson for that cow. At best you’re just a shitty white knight. You don’t even care about cows that are getting slaughtered cuz you wouldn’t tank a conversation so badly as you had if you actually gave a fuck and wasn’t just stroking off to your own ego for picking dumb fights with shit ideals about your grandeur. Worst ally ever.
I stick with Margaret Cho’s advice on vegans from her Assassin tour back in 2005:
And especially, especially, don’t fuck with vegans. Do not look vegans in the eye. If you get into an argument with a vegan, say “I’m wrong” and run away as fast as you can. Do not fuck with vegans because they will fuck you up…BECAUSE THEY’RE HUNGRY.
Every vegan I have met is one form of little bitch or another, without exception
Inflammatory prejudices are only bad when others have them. They’re definitely the hateful ones, so lets spread some hate about them.
I haven’t given out a quarter of the verbal abuse that has been heaped on me by people who feel morally superior over their diet.
I’m sorry to hear that. The thing is, you mainly hear from those who are the most vocal, and those tend to be the most angry and therefore unreasonable. And those probably had their fair share of verbal (and/or physical) abuse from meat eaters, as vegans are hated on by a much, much larger part of society than the other way around. (That doesn’t justify their hate, of course)
It’s all a self reinforcing dynamic of groups riling each other up, unfortunately.
Look, I really dgaf about all of you ‘no really guise veeegans are nice!’ when my entire life has been episode after episode of the opposite.
Exactly my experience. I often heard stories of vegans being like that, but I never ever saw it so I thought it was just made up to belittle vegans.
Then I joined lemmy and found out that I’m apparently in favour of massacres, slavery and rape because I consume meat/milk/eggs from time to time.
I imagine the vast majority of vegans just go about their lives and resprectfully discuss the ethics of animal consumption when the topic comes up, but these loud militant members really make vegans look bad and they sure as hell make it so that even less people consider going vegan
Yes, them calling me a rapist totally made we want to be like them and adopt their ideology.
Their strain of it appears to be poison religion like fundamentalist Christianity or Islam. A fanatic is a fanatic, whatever paint they’re dipped in. Guess they’re just trying to fill a hole in themselves.
I’m curious. You eat meat, but you’re not in favour of massacres. Alright, explain it to me.
I’m not in favor of it, but I’m not going to stop eating meat. The second lab grown meat is available to people in my economic tier I’ll switch exclusively to that.
I’m really hoping that lab grown meat will be available soon. I have a weird genetic issue where my body doesn’t like to absorb certain vitamins from food so I get basically nothing from raw veggies, negligible amounts from cooked veggies, and a tiny bit more from meat, eggs and dairy.
I take prescription vitamins, but according to my Dr I need to eat meat/animal products with them or risk going into a deficiency again… the last time I was deficient I had seizures and serious neurological issues.
I hate the meat industry and factory farming, but also want my brain to function and to not have seizures.
Lab grown meat will solve this dilemma for me.
I also have severe malabsorption and can’t process most veg at all. I have been told hundreds of times that I am lying, and that I don’t need to eat meat. To some of these people it is better for us to suffer than to eat meat, while they claim to subscribe to a philosophy of reducing suffering.
Yeah, it’s frustrating to say the least.
If I went vegan I’d probably suffer a very slow, agonizing death from my brain going haywire and seize until I go into psychosis and die. If my body could take it I’d probably be a vegetarian and eat only local eggs and cheese, but it’s a bad idea according to my doctor. It sucks.
Dam, man, that sucks. Hey, quick question, if they made lab grown human meat, would you try it?
Grown from my own cells? Fuck yes.
What about someone else’s? My body sucks I don’t want to eat any part of it
This is how you get prions…
Absolutely! I’m hoping it’s available soon since it’s more ethical than my current options.
Edit - missed the human part lmao. I would probably try it if it hurt no one and was offered to me
Ah, so you’re saying you don’t like it, but you find it an acceptable sacrifice to make in exchange for yummy food?
100% yes. I am fully aware that being vegan is, in my opinion, the more ethical option but I can and will continue to eat meat because 1 it’s cheap, it’s plentiful, I know how to and can cook with it well and because yes it tastes so fucking good. I don’t mean this as a 3edgy5me thing but fuck me I love a nice ribeye stake with butter and garlic cloves and a baked potato.
Okay, but you have to know about plant-based steaks and vegan butter. And of course you know about vegan garlic and vegan potato, because all garlic and potato is vegan. What’s the extra cost of a vegan steak compared to an animal steak in your area? In mine it’s around 3 dollars.
I have never seen a plant based stake at my local grocery stores. The next time I am there to pick out a stake, I will also look and ask specifically for a plant based one, and I will try it. But I have had other stuff like plant based burgers, and while they are ok, they just can’t hold up to the taste of a meat burger.
plant-based steaks
I’ve tried plenty of different plant based meat substitutes and so for, not one of them can hold a candle to the real taste. Like, it is not even close in my opinion. I can see the market for it, but plant based diet can be incredible when not trying to impersonate meat. Like lentils with curry. Not meat required and super tasty.
So would argue that meat substitutes are the wrong way to go if you want to eat tasty non meat stuff.
Never fails in a discussion about how fundamentally shitty vegans are that there will be a ton of vegans invading the thread to prove the point definitively.
any movement will have more or less militant members. that’s life.
the vast majority of vegans are not represented by a tiny segment that has found lemmy.
I like how they expect everyone to share there ethical views. Fun fact: most people don’t.
That’s okay, they’re just vegans.
Hello, blood mouth here checking in.
There was a post about making cats vegan. The mod then decided that people posting information on why that is a bad idea were antivegan or something. The mod started then removing any information that pointed to cats not being able to be health while on a vegan diet. The Lemmy.world admins them stepped in stating that improperly feeding your cat constitutes animal abuse and is unethical. This made many die hard vegans very mad.
For the record, cats can not be vegan. They can survive on it but they will have shorter more painful lives and they will go blind. There bodies start breaking down without the proteins and amino acids found in meat. I understand why vegans would be unhappy with that answer but it is the way it is.
Interesting enough, that’s not the case for dog. You can put a dog on a vegan diet as long as you are very careful and are constantly monitoring. It isn’t for the faint of heart and can have very sad outcomes. It isn’t something you can arbitrarily do.
Why do people even try to keep cats on vegan diet? It was your fucking choice, not the cats.
Im vegetarian, my cat eats meat. Im not gonna force anything on him unless he comes to me and tells me he wants to try it.
this is hilarious, and 100% on brand for a vegan community.
The mod then decided that people posting information on why that is a bad idea were antivegan or something. The mod started then removing any information that pointed to cats not being able to be health while on a vegan diet.
Pets eat pre-processed food, and we’ve had vegetarian protein supplements for a while. How does this work for cats? Idk, ask a vet. But these foods have been around for a while and I’m not hearing about a mass die-off of indoor cats as a result, so I’m willing to give vegan cat owners the benefit of the doubt.
For the record, cats can not be vegan. They can survive on it but they will have shorter more painful lives and they will go blind.
The expected lifespan of feral cats in the wild runs around 2-5 years. House cats routinely live into their teenage years and can hit north of 20. The ideal lifestyle for a cat is indoors, regardless of the precise composition of their diets.
Disclaimer that I’m not even a vegan but you’re spreading disinfo here to make vegans seem completely unreasonable. I suggest anyone check out the actual discussions instead of trusting this summary.
It’s bizarre to me that harcore vegans want to own a pet to begin with. Keeping bees for honey is bad, but separating a kitten from its mother at an early age and castrating it for your convenience and deciding how they live (restricted to an apartment or not) is totally fine?
I understand that most pets live a good life, but man, I can’t bring myself to make choices like these. I mean there are ways to circumvent it (get an older cat from an asylum for example) but it doesn’t really remove the “pet dilemma” to me.
I understand why vegans would be unhappy with that answer but it is the way it is.
I don’t. Veganism is about the fact that humans can live without animal products, which is true. Not accepting that actual carnivores exist, even being unhappy with this means you’re well in extremist nutjob territory.
Was this the article that started it? Do you have the thread or would an archived link be required to see it?
Vegan versus meat-based cat food: Guardian-reported health outcomes in 1,369 cats, after controlling for feline demographic factors [Andrew Knight, Alexander Bauer, Hazel Brown | Published: September 13, 2023][1]
Abstract
Increasing concerns about environmental sustainability, farmed animal welfare and competition for traditional protein sources, are driving considerable development of alternative pet foods. These include raw meat diets, in vitro meat products, and diets based on novel protein sources including terrestrial plants, insects, yeast, fungi and potentially seaweed. To study health outcomes in cats fed vegan diets compared to those fed meat, we surveyed 1,418 cat guardians, asking about one cat living with them, for at least one year. Among 1,380 respondents involved in cat diet decision-making, health and nutrition was the factor considered most important. 1,369 respondents provided information relating to a single cat fed a meat-based (1,242–91%) or vegan (127–9%) diet for at least a year. We examined seven general indicators of illness. After controlling for age, sex, neutering status and primary location via regression models, the following risk reductions were associated with a vegan diet for average cats: increased veterinary visits– 7.3% reduction, medication use– 14.9% reduction, progression onto therapeutic diet– 54.7% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of being unwell– 3.6% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of more severe illness– 7.6% reduction, guardian opinion of more severe illness– 22.8% reduction. Additionally, the number of health disorders per unwell cat decreased by 15.5%. No reductions were statistically significant. We also examined the prevalence of 22 specific health disorders, using reported veterinary assessments. Forty two percent of cats fed meat, and 37% of those fed vegan diets suffered from at least one disorder. Of these 22 disorders, 15 were most common in cats fed meat, and seven in cats fed vegan diets. Only one difference was statistically significant. Considering these results overall, cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets. This trend was clear and consistent. These results largely concur with previous, similar studies.
Cats have dietary needs that would require them to eat meat in nature. But we can make vegan, synthetic food that meets these needs. In fact, studies have shown that cats on vegan diets tend to be healthier if anything.
I don’t understand why people upvote summaries that don’t even try to be objective. I honestly think the mods there do notably abuse their power to remove comments, but let people decide that for themselves. This commenter is telling you who to support while being confidently incorrect on the original issue.
People started arguing about whether cats can eat vegan, mods on c!vegan got involved, then an admin got involved. People’s personal feelings about veganism overtook any actual discussion about when it is or isn’t inappropriate for Admins/mods to step in, hence the pinned post on the front page.
“we taught a lion to eat tofu!”
if cats were vegan, they’ll be eating grass like the gazelles in the Serengeti.
you don’t feed lions a vegan diet just like you don’t feed giraffes a meat diet.
not that hard.
I wonder if we need some kind of middle ground like Twitter where you leave the content up, with a big banner saying “this content is bullshit and here is the evidence”?
While I agree that harmful information should probably be hidden so that impressionable people don’t act on it, I also don’t like non-experts being the arbiters of censorship.
Lock the thread with a pinned comment to some actual evidence proving them wrong would be the closest alternative we have.
Yeah, but here the Admins had to step in because the mods would do the exact opposite, so that’s also not really an option.
Yeah, and that’s… Ok.
But I’d like something that was more visible without going into the comments, so people could see it in their feedNot to mention how much it puts on the shoulders of moderators to have to fact check every post/comment and find reliable sources to ensure false information isn’t spread. It would likely be unsustainable without a lot of funding if the platform expands furrher over time.
Ideally the mod should’ve pinned a comment with the risks and a disclaimer about the serious ethical concerns. They instead deleted legitimate information.
Removed by mod
Most of y’all need to calm the fuck down.
Vegan cat food has been a thing for a minute
It would be much bigger news if vegans were killing their cats in mass in pursuit of a vegan diet. But it seems most of you are blinded by rage of otherizing people then wanting to have a discussion.
Now bring on the down votes because most of you ornery ones think just because it’s sold on Amazon doesn’t mean it healthy for cat or some shit idk. It looks like Benevo gets 200 orders a month those cats really sound like their starving.
Lemmy.world really is reddit huh?
This topic touches a very soft spot in my heart as I’ve had to watch a cat die from being forced on a vegan diet. I’ve seen the results, and it is so very sad. Keep your goddamn morals out of other’s lives. Especially an animal that has no say in the matter. Fuck vegans.
Yeah! Nobody should be making decisions for a helpless animal over what diet they think is acceptable. Anyone who kills innocent cows over their belief in meat eating should be locked up.
Not the evil cows, though. They know what they did.
My condolences but DAMN just look at all the asshole vegans downvoting you
Also: Fuck vegans
Whoah whoah whoah. Let’s chill with the general fuck vegans statement. Most vegans are just people. Now the psycho vegans who try to make their cats eat vegan. Fuck those people. But broad statements like “fuck this group” tend to stick in people’s heads and promote undeserved hate. “Fuck the Nazi’s”? Yeah. “Fuck Germans”? No.
Nah yo, fuck vegans.
Seriously
Every fucking one of them, idgaf if you think some are ‘good’ or ‘nice’ or ‘just keep to themselves’
Fuck _ All _ Vegans
Then “most vegans” need to tell those vegans to shut the fuck up. Just like the Germans did the Nazis.
I’m stuck with a memory I can never get rid of because some piece of shit decided to do that to this poor animal. It couldn’t even hold it’s head up because it was infected so bad and didn’t even have to the energy to live. I got to sit there and watch it’s life slip from it’s body and there was nothing I could do. It was withered to bones.
They never saw jail time or even punished in the slightest amount.
So don’t come in here telling me to play nice.
Fuck.
Vegans.
If a sick cat upsets you so much, then watch out when you learn about the incredible suffering, misery and billions of deaths caused by the global animal industry. I’m vegan because I watched the videos most “animal lovers” refuse to look at. Unspeakable horror, 24/7.
You know nothing of animal suffering at the hands of humans. “I watched a video once and it made me sad!” Call your local animal control and ask to go for a ride along. Only then will you understand what suffering really is.
I’ve seen the videos, multiple times, and I only wish some of the animals I’ve seen were given such a quick suffer free ending.
So animals living a happy life without humans making them suffer is good? We both want that, right?
^ THIS FUCKING THIS
So many vegans claim to not understand why literally the entire world hates them, but then they constantly post whataboutism bullshit like this.
How is this whataboutism? We’re talking about animal rights. A sick cat and a billion suffering mammals are the same topic, no?
So… you had one experience and now you associate that with all people you think are the same?
I dunno, seems a bit extreme.
I have had literally hundreds of irl and thousands of online interactions with vegans, every experience was horrible and toxic no matter how conciliatory I approach the discussion.
So, fuck vegans
Every fucking one of them
You, conciliatory? I find that tough to believe. Are you sure you weren’t yelling and screaming or otherwise hurling insults at them as you seem to be so fond of doing?
The me you see now is bitter and disillusioned after 3+ decades of slowly degrading wide eyed optimism.
It was a death by a thousand sneers and slogans, protests and coups and misplaced ideals.
So I pretty much hate everyone now but this wasn’t always the case, and in the course of my life the degree of bitterness I feel towards nearly every living human has barely been around 5 years. I’m also not sure this is the most misanthropic I will become and people like you test that limit with such blithe abandon.
If I had to make a list that reflects my current spectrum of severe dislike:
- Fascists. Fuck fascists with every fiber of my being and hypothetical non-physical extension of my consciousness in whatever ether it originates in.
B) Vegans. Fuck vegans, seriously. III) Nearly every other human that has ever existed.
The people I do not harbor some degree of hate could fill a small college auditorium and I can guarantee there is no one on this site that is in that group at the moment.
I engaged in sincere and respectful conversation with every vegan I could find at my university, and whenever I began to ask sincere questions, they ALWAYS responded with derogatory labels and for YEARS I did not and just figured I hadn’t found the right vegan to ask and kept trying.
When you go to a stone lined well and get poisoned water for 30 years maybe it’s time to not go to any more stone lined wells, understand?
- Fascists. Fuck fascists with every fiber of my being and hypothetical non-physical extension of my consciousness in whatever ether it originates in.
I’m am only speaking of the worst instance of things I’ve seen. I’ve been working with/around animals all my life.
Dog breeders, dog fighters, people that get too many cats (or any animal in general) that they can’t take care of, horses that have been whipped so much their entire bodies are covered in scars, and many of the other horrid things I’ve seen. Seeing the look on that cat’s face hurt me more than anything I’ve ever experienced. He wanted to live, but couldn’t because he was too weak at that point to fight. If he had been found a week earlier, he could have been saved.
But you dumb fucks always think you’re in the right because of your “morally superior stance” on all thing animals. Pushing your shit ideals on other creatures because you think you’re right even though science will say over and over again that it isn’t possible for a cat to survive properly on a vegan diet.
Keep denying science all you want, but do it at your own cost, no one else’s.
Let’s try to sow unity instead of division.
I’ve gone vegan before. Mostly because I think animals are gross and carry disease as opposed to doing it for ethical reasons. I also love steak and feed my snakes mice. Everyone is different. Stupid people will be stupid and people without empathy will be cruel. I grew up in a rough neighborhood where I knew of not one but two different men who beat their dogs and one, I believe, to death. Neither vegan as far as I know. Ostracizing a certain group will only make them band together more strongly. Empirically speaking. I know personal experience can make a ton of self-righteous hate. I can’t speak to what you’ve seen. But the majority of people in any group are just normal folk unless it’s religion or a cult. The broader the group the more normal people within it. You’re criticizing a diet choice for fucks sake. Everyone is going to have different reasons. I know a very cool person (a practicing vet in fact) that is vegan because her body can’t process fats or oils found in almost every animal product.
If you really feel for animals that this happens to you should try to make change and be involved. Educate people. Fuck, there’s no way you’d ever care to, but you could go to vegan events and educate people on why some animals cannot survive a vegan diet.
Make the problem better.
Or just keep spreading hate and exclusion and making the problem worse.
It’s not fair to assume a member of a population is guilty until they condemn/renounce the problematic members of their population. I remember there being a problem after 9/11 where some people expected individual Muslims to publicly condemn Al Qaeda or else be assumed complicit. If it wasn’t alright there, it’s not alright here.
Every. Single. Interaction. I have EVER had with vegans was a shitshow, and I’ve been doing this for decades, IRL and on the internet.
Out of 100+irl and literally thousands of online interactions, I know only one thing for sure about vegans: They are the second most obnoxious and ill-informed self-identifying group of people I have ever met, and since the first is LITERAL fascists, that’s saying something.
Don’t bother arguing, you won’t like where it goes.
Wow you are angry. But I’m not easily offended and up for a debate, if you’d like.
Have any good recipes?
Don’t even bother.
That person is so obviously full of shit, picking the most obvious and easiest strawman to beat on.
I am vegetarian and know many vegans.
None would even think about torturing our pets to death with food that is not edible for the specific species.On the other hands I have heard multiple omnivores tell stories about how they “know” crazy vegans that would do shit like that.
There are some crazies (like in any big group of people) and I can’t know if OP accidentally ran into one, but the way they generalize makes it clear to me that they are the one with issues, not every run of the mill vegan.
Vegans usually care a great deal about animals, including carnivorous animals. So fuck them right back for spewing their indiscriminate hatred.
Yeah I see no difference between militant pro-lifers and militant vegans. You don’t get a say in how I choose to interpret the information presented to me. But if you want to teach me things I didn’t know before or hadn’t considered I’m happy to listen. Just don’t tell me my choices are morally reprehensible when they’re my choices
It’s not just your choices alone, you’re ignoring something here: If the animal whose death you pay for every day could speak, it would object. If it could defend itself, it would fight against its death. It wants to go on living just like you. But you kill it anyway, against its will, because you can, because the animal is innocent and because you simply like it’s taste.
In addition to this violence, animal agriculture is also causing great damage to our planet, so your personal choice affects the lifes of other people, living and yet to be born as well. I can hardly think of any parallels to the pro-lifers.Right and by even just existing as a human, you are making the world a worse place for every single other animal on the planet, yet you continue to keep living your life. You are currently benefiting from human slavery and suffering, so how much do you really care?
I do and I try. Buying beans instead of meat and oat milk for udder milk is a really easy thing to do on a personal level, if you look at the damage you avoid by doing so. Some things can be changed easily, some take efford, some can not be changed at all on a personal level. Buying second hand stuff is rather easy for me as well. Giving up on my car would take much more efford, I’m not ready yet. Getting out of the firm grip of all fossil destroyers is nearly impossible. So, let’s start easy when you shop for groceries next time. :)
If the
animalfeotus whose death you pay for every day could speak, it would object. If it could defend itself, it would fight against its death. It wants to go on living just like you. But you kill it anyway, against its will, because you can, because theanimalfetus is innocentI can hardly think of any parallels to the pro-lifers.
Come on, now you are paying dumb! :)
A foetus is not alive yet. It’s own it’s way, but it can not survive on it’s own, if it could talk it wouldn’t, because it has not a functioning brain, yet. It doesn’t suffer, yet. Plus there is it’s host, the mother, who’s body is hers to decide what to do.
Pigs, dogs, cows and fish, they are sentient beings who we share the planet with, different but equal.I took that last line to be sarcastic.
And also: Shouldn’t forcing an animal to live you for the lulz be a problem in general for vegans? The animal didn’t choose to live in your cramped studio apartment just to comfort you.
Animal ownership is, in fact, seen as unethical by some vegans.
Sounds more reasonable to me than forcing unnatural diets onto animals that cannot consent.
Vegans could just get an animal that can be safely put on a vegan diet. They could walk into a vet or animal rescue and ask about vegan animal diets.
Worse case they could get a miniature pony.
Good point. I’m going to release Mittens onto the street and get a brand new bunny rabbit instead.
If you feel uncomfortable with properly feeding your cat then you shouldn’t have a cat. I have actually met vegans with pet bunnies. They are trained to use a litterbox.
10+ years vegan here. You should not feed plants to a carnivore. Maybe in the future, but not today. I attended a PETA workshop about a healthy plant-based diet a couple years ago and everybody agreed on that. I met a lot of different vegans and not once have I heard this opinion.
Keep your goddamn morals out of other’s lives. Especially an animal that has no say in the matter.
You are on to something here.
I attended a PETA workshop about a healthy plant-based diet a couple years ago and everybody agreed on that.
Yeah, PETA wants to be the only ones who kill housepets. If all the cats are dead from vegan diets, there won’t be any left for PETA to kidnap and euthanize.
/s but not really because PETA habitually steals pets and immediately euthanizes them before the owner can reclaim them.This was one incident a hundred years ago. Kinda strange, I have to admit. But do you know why PETA kills so many animals? And do you know that the whole story was published by the dairy industry?
That did happen, but to call it habitual isn’t fair.
You should not feed plants to a carnivore
You can feed plants to a carnivore, just don’t expect it to be enough.
My dog, for example, loves carrots and cucumbers. They make great treats for him. But please don’t substitute real meat food that he has evolved to eat with carrots and cucumbers
Dogs are omnivores like pigs or humans. They can get everything their body needs from plants. Cats are carnivores, their digestive system is completely different, they are designed to eat raw meat.
We are not. If the meat is slightly too old, too warm, not well cooked we get super sick. Pigs eat a rotten squirel and be fine.…
Pigs evolved to eat meat?
are you shitting me right now?
Google search and your comment say they’re omnivores. But given your comment they’re still more resilient to meat than us?
Can we even call ourselves omnivores at this point? We are so much worse omnivores compared to other omnivores, aren’t we just herbivores with a tolerance to meat?
You’re probably right. I’d love to talk about that, but in my native language and face to face. This is exausting. :)
19:30, lucerne main station. you’re from feddit.org, you surely speak german.
7 Stunden mit dem Zug. Ich melde wenn ich mal in der Gegend bin. :)
You ever hear about how the Mafia uses pigs to dispose of bodies? It’s cause they eat them up, bones and all. Pigs love meat.
It doesn’t mean they should have meat. Same goes for humans.
Aren’t dogs some type of omnivores instead of carnivores?
well, my dog certainly isn’t
but yes, you’re obviously right, they are generally seen as omnivore. Although they lean harder on the carnivore-side than the herbivore-side.
Not general omnivores - there’s a specific type for that category. I’m no biologist though so ill have to look it up and get back to you. I could be wrong. Don’t trust a stranger on the internet lol
Some vegans decide all cats, like all other animals, should join their club, whether they want to or not. Deemed dubious practice by some but not impossible by others.
Admin loses mind, power trips.
You’re caught up.
Absolutely, first he lumps dogs and cats together, they have extremely different dietary needs.
Second, I couldn’t find anything specific to cats dietary needs being met by a vegan diet. The video’s sources seem to be based on self reporting surveys. Not science.
