my favorite UK shitpost was liz truss, very funny.
Lasting shorter than a letuce
lettuce liz baby!
And then there’s Belgium, which apparently holds the world record for longest time without a government. At least introduce time limits for negotiations, guys…
One positive on the Dutch coalition talks. We can always say that our southern neighbours take even longer…
On a more serious note, the last three coalition talks in the Netherlands took over 200 days, with one taking 299 days. Sure, not even close to over 500 days in Belgium, but how the hell does this happen?
And what happened? I guess not much, life just went on?
More education, please. I’m American.
How does this process function?
How does it change the ratchet right effect seen in the US?
In a parliamentary system, Prime Ministers aren’t elected by popular vote, but instead chosen by Parliament. It’s basically like if the Speaker of the House were also the President.
Fun fact: the US system was originally designed to work sort of that way, except they wanted the President to be chosen by all the state legislatures instead of Congress, for extra Federalist separation of powers. That’s what the Electoral College is for: they couldn’t do “one state rep = one vote” because each state has different numbers of constituents per rep and such, so they needed a “compatibility layer.”
Then states immediately fucked up the plan by holding popular votes for Electors instead of having the legislature appoint them, and the rest is history.
This makes sense. I’d add that the system of government in the US didn’t function as intended in many facets and almost immediately. In respect to the electoral college today, American exceptionalism prevents us accepting that a direct democracy in choosing our President would sentence us to the mediocrity we fear most. We don’t understand why we’ve an electoral college because we broke it before railroads and the cotton gin.
I appreciate the parliamentary system so far for its simplicity relative the US system. But, the good and bad consequences really depends on the nuance.
What compromise must be reached to prevent another election?
What offices are reelected? The entirety of parliament?
In parliamentary systems, the government needs to maintain the confidence of the majority. Any elected official can request a vote of confidence be held and, at least in Canada, certain votes are always considered votes of confidence (ex. the government’s budget). If a confidence vote fails, parliament dissolves and can’t do anything until a new parliament is formed. All seats are up for re-election. Since the government can’t do anything until an election is held, they tend to happen very quickly.
The government can prevent a no confidence vote by swaying enough members. It’s a bit of a non-issue if the current government already holds the majority of seats. If they don’t hold a majority, they’ll often make deals with a smaller party in exchange for their confidence. This can be as little as modifying a bill to as much as forming an official coalition and granting members of another party cabinet positions.
I think I’m understanding how it supposed to work: Because it’s a unicameral legislature that appoints the executive, there’s no possibility of checks and balances by bicameral legislature and pseudo-democratic election of executive. So, the larger parties don’t kill off the smaller parties because, if they aren’t part of the majority coalition, they need smaller party favor to in the future be part of the majority coalition.
Is that generally the right idea?
Is it safe to assume that some things, like changing a federal or provincial constitution, would take more than a majority?
Is that generally the right idea?
In practice, that’s generally the idea. Small parties haven’t gone away because larger parties can usually bet on them lending a hand when the large party fails to win a majority, and voters aren’t afraid to vote for a small party when polls are split. However, this is mostly a left wing thing, at least in Canada. Small right wing parties tend to eventually join up with the “big tent” Conservative party. Although it’s mostly because small right wing parties tend to be unable to convince conservative voters to switch from the big party to their little party.
Because it’s a unicameral legislature that appoints the executive, there’s no possibility of checks and balances by bicameral legislature and pseudo-democratic election of executive.
Canada has a bicameral legislature, just like the UK. Our second chamber is the Senate, modelled after the UKs second chamber, The House of Lords. Senators are appointed by the Prime Minister and can serve until 75 (technically they are appointed by the reigning monarch but the constitution requires them to listen to the Prime Minister). All bills must pass a vote in both chambers before it is law.
In practice, the appointed Senators don’t like to vote down bills that have been approved by the elected Members of Parliament since it upsets Canadians who have been asking “what is the point of the senate?” and “why don’t we get rid of it?” for a long time. They will typically only request small changes to avoid loosing their very cushy jobs, though there are times they do play politics. They claim to be the chamber of “sober second thought”, where things are debated on their merits without political fervor. To their credit, most of their debates do end with a unanimous decision.
Is it safe to assume that some things, like changing a federal or provincial constitution, would take more than a majority?
For changing the constitution, it requires approval of Parliament (technically the Senate has a say but at most they can only delay changes for 180 days) and 7 out of 10 provinces. In cases where the change affects only one province, only Parliament that province needs to approve.
There are a few special parts of the constitution that need to be absolutely unanimous: removal of the monarchy, lowering the minumum number of seats a province has in parliment, removing English or French from the offical languages, and changing the composition of the Supreme Court.
The best thank you I have is trying to demonstrate depth of understanding.
One purpose of the Senate appears to be to protect the minority from the majority. Another appears to be to protect the majority from the mediocre results of democratic governance. These roles are never safe, politic, or popular. That’s why they’re appointed effectively for life.
I don’t know what’s “best”. But, I think I now better understand why it was designed the way it is. Thank you.
The bicameral system operates at the extremes. The Senate is appointed sorta for life like our Supreme Court. But, the Parliament can be dissolved at any time by failure to form a majority coalition.
Super cool.
So the UK is probably the simplest to discuss because it doesn’t have a constitution, and this means parliament is sovereign and decides everything by a simple majority vote.
They can pass laws saying that certain things need a super majority, but then they can just turn round and unpass them as well
This means that what you think of as the executive, i.e. the prime minister and all his helpers, can be changed by a simple majority, and an election can be called by one. They don’t need to happen at the same time. The last parliament had three different prime ministers without an election, and it’s common to switch prime ministers well before an election in order to create an incumbent advantage.
This makes sense also. Thank you for teaching.
I’m looked up UK’s parliamentary party composition. There’s three major parties. And, if one adds up all the minor party seats they hold like 7%.
What isn’t this system suffering two-party dichotomy as seen in the US? In this I can quickly understand how deep cultural roots may be a significant factor. But, are there also systemic checks and balances that keep third parties alive? Is it as simple a core difference as ballot access?
It does. The UK sucks too because it doesn’t have proportional representation. But that’s a whole separate problem.
What basically makes it suck a little less than the US is each seat only receives tens of thousands of votes, so it’s possible for local interests to do well in particular seats and get a little bit more diversity.
It does suffer from it.
We are a two party system. It’s just one of them has suffered such a catastrophic loss in vote share that it looks like there’s three main parties.
It’s extremely regional. In most of England it’s Labour vs Tories. In some southern areas it’s Lib Dem vs Tories. In Scotland mostly the SNP vie with Labour for control. Northern Ireland is DUP (Tory aligned, but we only remembered they existed when they had to prop the Tories up) vs Sinn Fein. Wales is mostly Labour vs Tory with Plaid Cymru thrown in.
The minor parties are competitive in a handful of locations, so only Labour and Tories can actually win control.
Also, in most European states (France is similar to the US in that point), the head of state (president, king) is not the head of government (prime minister, chancellor). The former may be elected by popular vote, and has mainly representative tasks, the latter usually is elected by the parlament and drives the political decisions.
Actually France is a semi-presidential republic, unlike the US. Its President shares the executive power with the Prime Minister.
There are also semi-presidential republics, which function differently. In those systems, the US-style president role is split into two different roles, president & prime minister. President handles foreign policy, the army and selects the prime minister with the approval of parliament, and the prime minister handles everything domestic. This separation of roles means the amount of damage an individual can do is much more limited.
Edit: Oh, I missed somebody already talked about the French system, which is a semi-presidential system. Oh well, leaving this up for posterity.
And Americans only have to pick one out of two opposing parties. How hard can it be?
After enough elections, you get tired of picking the party that aligns with you on 4% of issues because it’s ever so slightly higher than the other party which aligns with you on 0.5%.
The problem is two-fold. The majority of Americans are passively informed, and the majority of our news publications are compromised by wealthy owners.
Also, it’s two months, not three. Early voting ballots go out in the end of September.
It goes deeper than that. Those same news Publications are financially incentivized to prolong and protract the election seasons. They work incredibly hard to not talk about policies are issues but to focus on process stories. They’ve created this notion that there’s not enough time for an election.
That’s why you seem to think two months isn’t enough time. When it’s plenty.
Passively informed is an understatement, also we’re supposed to be available to work at a moments call, with limited time off availability. Am I gonna just tell my boss I’m leaving early to go vote?
I mean… Yes???.. If it’s normal for a boss to chew you out for voting, then they’re being more transparent about voter suppression than I thought.
and the majority of our news publications are compromised by wealthy owners
This is true in the vast majority of European countries too. If anything, you usually find an exception in a public broadcasting channel, which may or may not be influenced by political officials.
The US has NPR and access to foreign news services, they are just absolutely disgustingly lazy.
You have way more faith in NPR these days than I do. If you haven’t noticed the massive decline in quality of journalistic integrity there I don’t know what to tell you.
People making a choice isn’t the hard part. All 51 different territories having different rules for their elections is the hard part.
skill issue
Most of the problem States purposely fuck things up.
All 51 different territories having different rules for their elections is the hard part.
How is that the hard part? Each state organizes their own elections, they only need to abide by their own rules. No one is involved in organizing elections in all 51 territories at the same time.
At least they don’t have 51 different constitutuons. Unlike ESSU.
Technically they do, the US constitution is just the trump card. State constituions in the US are kind of a hot mess.
Sounds unstable and scary.
I’d argue that political stability consists of and depends on at least rule of law, separation of powers and democratic representation. The EU and its member still have a lot to progress in this regard, though. Coalition building is kind of a comprise towards building pluralistic quasi-consensus based decision-making.
IMO, coalition political systems have the potential to politically deal better with long-term issues as small parties can influence governments beyond a single term. Green parties, but unfortunately also far-right parties, for example can thus push for their topics.
The US also had a coalition, the National Unity Party during its Civil War.
Better an unstable government than an unstable guy at the lead.
Not everything has to be a zero sum game
I’ve read that in Belgium (the worst offendor in this regard), the regional governments have so much power that not having a national government for a year or so isn’t much of a problem.
Belgium is a federal country, like Germany or the US. The regions have control over some things, not everything. Plus the current federal government stays as caretaker until a new government is formed.
Usually we just vote, they find a coalition and it stays that way for a few years
About coalitions: they mean that the parties in power need at least 50%, so if there’s not a single party with over 50% (“absolute majority”) they need a partner. The big parties in my country usually get 20-30%.
Usually we just vote, they find a coalition and it stays that way for a few years
laughs in Italian
The US also has 5 times as many people as France.
Europe can have snap elections, but we don’t try and have elections for every European country at once, with two leaders trying desperately to visit each one to win support.
You can have 5 times more people counting votes and organizing things. I dont understand this excuse. Democracy can scale, especially nowadays with technology.
European Parliament elections were like a couple of months ago.
Fuck it. Elections will be a couple of months ago.
Wouldnt mind giving VOLT my ballet again :3
They wouldn’t need to visit each country, they don’t even bother caring about more than 4 states in the US!
Given the events of the last week, I can certainly see them being a bit more picky about lines of sight from nearby tall buildings.
That presumes the EU would be dumb enough to try the electoral college on for size again
That’s right we know where that shit came from you HRE and PLC descended fuckers!
Ah yes classic European elitism on display once again
well-earnt comment without context, inaccurate with context (of degree of democratic representation)
Because it’s better
elitism
I must be old, I remember when being ‘elite’ was considered a good thing.
France is not the EU. This doesn’t happen in other European countries because there are rules and proper times to make proper campaigns. I don’t even think this is a good thing to joke about Americans because what was done in France was just plain stupid
And Belgium, and Holland, and…
This happens all over europe
Though a coalition failing to form doesn’t usually cause an immediate election.
I mean it’d be rather odd to ask people who they want in government, and then ask them to do so again before any government was formed.
Per te la Repubblica Italiana è uno scherzo?
I only speak A2 italian and even i understood that rage.
Didn’t the Netherlands have a year of five premiers?
Also, Tories, y’all might want to disown them but the Brits are still euros as far as everyone else reckons, save maybe for a particularly unionist canadian or aussie.
Y’all might have rules about it but that doesn’t change that snap elections basically guarantee no incentive to figure anything out because you can always just hit the do-over button until someone’s base is the last one standing without turnout fatigue and someone secures an outright majority or a purely ideological coalition.
The idea of governing coalitions is kinda old fashioned anyways, just hold a STAR or approval vote for each of the cabinet positions including for premier and voilà, now you never have to engage in horse trading just to form a standing government, and the stress of negotiations can be reserved for law making or inter-departmental cabinet affairs.
We finally got rid of the previous prime minister after 12 years, what 5 premiers did I miss?
You can get rid of your prime ministers pretty easily if they suck. We’re electing what is now essentially a king for at least the next 4 years.
Or hopefully, this time around, a Queen
lol I get what you’re going for here but this is the most vote-blue-no-matter-who Democrat thing I’ve ever seen.
#girlboss #notenoughfemaledictators #lickheelsnotboots
I actually do like Kamala as a candidate outright, after learning more about how she’s departed from her past as a brutal attorney general since becoming a senator. I’m hopeful that she can be a much better president than Joe or even Obama was.
Yes please
If american democracy was good, other countries would be using it.
Some European countries have lower populations than a single US city.
Some European countries are small enough that you can drive the entire length in a single day.
Must be nice to have prime ministers who represent fewer people than the mayor of LA
Every European country is small enough that you can drive through it in a day.
Do you mean the electoral collage still travels by house to Washington? What is your point?
The point is, it’s easier to organize a national election when you don’t have to do it across 50 federated entities and 5 time zones
it’s easier to organize a national election when you don’t have to do it across 50 federated entities and 5 time zones
The US national elections are much, much easier to organize than national elections in EU countries. EU countries have to hold elections for tens of millions of people. In the US national elections only 538 people get to vote.
There are 50 states that have to hold elections to select representatives for the electoral college, but these are organized by each the state individually, not the federal government. You don’t have one big national election, you have 50 small ones.
Most US states have only a small number of inhabitants. Even the largest US state, California, only has 38M inhabitants. Less than half of Germany (83M), and significantly less than France (68M), Italy (58M) and Spain (48M). 40 of those 50 states have fewer than 10M inhabitants.
France (68M inhabitants) called elections on June 9, with the first round on June 30 and the second on July 7. They were over less than a month after being called. If France can do this with 68 million inhabitants then surely California can do it with only 36 million (let alone all those other smaller states).
It’s the synchronization of 50 individual states that’s the trick. Countries with many states have slower bureaucracies. They don’t all have the same budget to organize elections. Sure, Florida Texas new York and California could probably do it fast. But Alaska or Wyoming?
Colorado runs their elections in person in some of their smaller districts. The entire voting population meets at the school auditorium and debate and discuss until they can assign their electors to a candidate. It’s a tradition that’s as old as the state.
Every state has unique needs and budgets to provide voting to their citizens. Some states make it easier for citizens to vote. Some make it harder. When planning a national election you must be considerate of the states that make it harder to vote.
Dude, just drop it.
Who are you and why should i consider your opinion?
You are complletely allowed to not care the slightests and to dig yourself deeper lol.
We have EP elections, they represent more people than the US, elections have to be synchronized not just between states, but between sovereign countries (imagine dealing with France, Germany and Hungary at the same time), and they often go without a hitch with only a few months of campaigning.
Don’t they happen at regular intervals? Or is it always a case of the legislative announcing a popular vote is necessary and then everyone has a few months to prepare
Do you mean the electoral collage still travels by house to Washington?
Maybe they travel by tra… They don’t have train, do they?
Don’t be so American aka uneducated. They still have to have a full government and local governments. Just because they’re smaller than Texas doesn’t mean two guys can run the whole society. You guys really deserve Trump.
The United states has federal, state and local governments. And often county governments as well in the more populated states.
Just because i don’t know if Serbia is a representative or parliamentary democracy doesn’t make me uneducated. It means your backwater country is completely unimportant to the global community
Just because i don’t know if Serbia is a representative or parliamentary democracy
Hell, I don’t even know if you say or repeat words!
Parlamentary democracy is one kind of representative democracy AKA republic.
Having three levels of government is standard. It’s not a special American thing. Most countries have this outside of the really small ones. Even Serbia does, to a limited extent.
Excluding the de-facto independent province of Kosovo, The country has one autonomous province with its own government, namely Vojvodina in the North. Central Serbia however is not a province and doesn’t have its own government.
The country is further divided into 117 municipalities and 28 cities, all of which have a local government. Six of the largest cities are additionally divided into city municipalities, which also have a local government. This means that depending on where you live in the country, you’ll be subject to somewhere between two and four levels of government.
It’s anecdotal but I was told that Americans (and Europeans) obsess on the happenings and circus at the federal level but much of it doesn’t really affect the average Americans on the state level. Not sure how but my guess it’s because states have their own laws and cultures which offsets some of the federal level shenanigans.
Let the Americans have their fun. They love plot twists, a bit of pageantry and pizazz. While they certainly don’t NEED a year-long election cycle, most Americans actively seem to enjoy it.
It creates opportunities to vigorously debate the opposition, run some nice smear campaigns, do a bit of backstabbing, schmooze the big donors, kiss a few babies and add in the odd assassination attempt. You just can’t fit all that drama in a one month cycle like we Europeans like to do.
I wish it was only a year. Lately it’s been about a 4 year cycle for the presidential race
Some countries end up with a great PM because everyone else was made inelligible. Looking at you, New Zealand.
It’s not the time that’s the issue. It’s the eye-watering sums of money you cunts donate to let a politician run a campaign.
What the fuck does someone need $450m for?! Use that to provide support for the homeless, feed the poor, and protect children that need a stable home. You could do so much with that money.
if it was up to the average american, we wouldn’t have that shit. unfortunately our society is puppeted by the rich to a very unhealthy degree at the moment. i hope that changes soon and maybe give us the opportunity to revolution some of them away.
It is kinda trolling how you can just call an election when you think your party will do best
But it can also go horribly wrong. For example, Cameron called the Brexit referendum without wanting Brexit, which did not go as planned
