You don’t make fun of halal or kosher? Where’s the fun in that?!
relating to the Title:
You guys are posting pretty judgmental, even provocative, posts which end up on the front page.
So: post evokes emotion + post is seen by a lot of people = a lot of People will reply to that
Never heard of the term meatsplaining but that makes it sound like the experiences in that regard are similar on both sides. Carnivores feel like vegans like to paint themselves having the moral high ground (would that be called vegansplaining?) so carnivores condescend back? Something like that.
And I agree with my fellow commentor. Whether it’s religion, race, dietary ideologies, anything and anyone can be singled out depending on who’s part of a given setting. These transgressions are just a manifestation of someone’s own inadequacies or compensation mechanisms. Plus on the internet there will always be trolls and haters about.
Vegans do have the moral high ground simply by not murdering animals for food.
Gee I wonder why telling 90% of the planet that they’re wrong and stupid and you are morally Superior doesn’t Garner more support? Clearly it’s not the condesending messaging.
I can’t go vegan because of the vegans 🙄
They are all of those things. Meat is murder. Dairy is rape and murder.
This isn’t a popularity contest or a fad. If you understand the moral problem, it doesn’t matter what percentage of the people think that it’s not wrong.
Or hear me out you can be aware that we are animals continuing the natural process of calorie and resource reopropration. Most people would think a horse is a vegetarian until they watch it go chick hunting. Animals have the capacity to be sentient but not sapient by most definitions. I think we should look to stop factory farming and move back to more natural methods and cull the animals responsibly. I eat a balenced diet and do eat less meat than most. I want better higher quality meats. I’d be willing to hop on board to lab grown or imitation meats if they are comparable so far I’m not impressed. It is better every time but we are not there yet, if you want people to stop eating animals put your funding there. You can work with us or against us but remember you are the minority. So would you take the line of an absolutionist or work on common ground to make it so there is less suffering. The best steak I’ve ever had came from a cow raised free to roam the countryside locally slaughtered then served. You find a way to reproduce that and nobody will ever want a shit cheeseburger again.
Or hear me out you can be aware that we are animals continuing the natural process of calorie and resource reopropration.
You don’t have to. You choose to for a bunch of feelings and “identities” which have nothing to do with “caloric appropriation”.
I think you are confused. I am choosing taste. I value my pallet over the animals because they are animals. Call it selfish if you like I won’t deny it. So again you don’t have any arguments to sway me, I am not suffering from cognitive dissonance. Your options are to work with the system to promote change from within in a positive direction that makes the animals welfare improve or ignore the system. The system will continue if you ignore it Until you can reconcile that fact, there is no discussion that can be had.
I know that it is the standard question to people that have no problems with killing thousands of sentient animals for their own enjoyment, but what do you think about eating dogs or cats? Do you think that cock-/bull-/dogfighting is bad? Is it okay to kill a mentally disabled person for fun?
So again you don’t have any arguments to sway me
Why would I try to sway a selfish sociopath with arguments?
Your claims to being open for discussion go out the window the moment you put your taste experience before the lives of “animals”.
Please use the correct words. Murder is when a human being kills another human being. You cannot murder an animal. Animals are slaughtered, not murdered.
Other than that, I agree with you even though I’m not vegan.
Hopefully, you do also understand then that this distinction between “murder” and “slaughter” exists, because people wanted to apply different moral standards to it. Since we vegans disagree with having those different standards, we also disagree with what’s the correct word.
Yes I understand why vegans use the word murder, so that they get a strong emotional reaction to something they consider abhorrent. And I get it. But I think precision in language is important, and I think using that kind of language actually pushes people away from a better understanding of what veganism is all about. Although it shows how passionate vegans are, it can push people away with what some might consider vitriolic hyperbole.
That fact that a mod removed my post about the dictionary definition of an english word kinda illustrates my point. Despite my calm, clear, and nonconfrontational language, I expect this post to get removed as well.
I do agree that this harsh language can push people away. I rarely use it myself for that reason. But whether to use it or not, is their personal decision.
As for your dictionary definition comment, I am absolutely on board with it being removed. It was extremely tone-deaf.
You do not need to answer me, but ask yourself the following: Did you really think, they were not aware of the dictionary definition?They were purposefully using a non-standard word. You could have argued their decision to use that word, if you really felt that strongly about it, although frankly, just don’t do that either. They’ve almost certainly thought about this more than you have, and there’s also just no need to discuss something like that all the time.
The way I interpreted your comment is that you personally felt uncomfortable with their use of language, so you felt an urge to react to it in any way whatsoever. Absolutely understandable.
But that is precisely what this whole post is about. People, who eat meat, will feel uncomfortable with the discussions we have here and then they respond to argue things that really do not need arguing.Like, if you notice a factual mistake in a post, I welcome you to correct that. Intentional different usage of language is not a mistake, though.
I understand your viewpoint and I would offer you mine (I did not comment out of discomfort) but based on the mod activity in this post I don’t think it would be well received. It seems this is a community by vegans for vegans only, and other viewpoints, even non-antagonistic ones, are not welcome. Nothing wrong with that, but it means I will show myself the door rather than irritate the community members.
I can’t speak for the people that made the community but I don’t think that places like this are necessarily made by vegans for vegans as you describe. Personally I can attest that it’s just extremely frustrating to be made to feel like an out group in the ONE community where you shouldn’t be made to feel like that. I personally welcome nonvegans to participate in discussion so long as they come with the understanding that they are a guest in our community and should respect the community as such which does include taking care to not come across as tone deaf. I’m not religious and in fact actively oppose religion but if I found myself at a church for whatever reason I’m not going to go in there and start a bunch of arguments and whatnot. I would be respectful because I understand that going to their place of worship and causing a commotion is uncalled for and doesn’t benefit anyone. To be clear, I’m not trying to say that veganism is a religion because it is not and it is not viewed in the same way as religion is by its followers. I am merely using the analogy to illustrate how you should act when going into a community that you are not a part of.
Politeness is often used as a mask for horrible ideas and actions.
Vegans do have the moral high ground simply by not murdering animals for food.
There is absolutely no reason to take your feelings of persecution seriously, if you’re locked in on the idea that you’re morally superior to anyone who isn’t a vegan. Identical vibes to an Evangelical Christian that ends arguements that go nowhere with I’ll pray for you.
Your attitude expressed here is the exact reason for that which you complain about.
Never shamed a vegan, and I was one myself for 5 years. I think people get a negative impression of vegans because vegans so commonly share their reasoning, even zealously or evangelically so, unsolicited.
It gets annoying. And I felt that so much (in others) while I was a vegan that I stopped explaining why and just said “personal choice” when asked.
If someone wants the whole story, they’ll ask for it. We don’t need the morality, the economics, and the all-to-often (admit it) holier-than-thou diatribe vegans are so wont to subject others to.
As with any diet, moderation is the key.
I think “personal choice” comes off as slightly dismissive, as if it’s below your effort to even discuss.
Personally, I just go with “for ethical reasons, plus, its good for the environment” and I’ve never had anyone chuck a a tantrum.
In my experience, the reactions depend a lot on the people you talk to and well, what you look like.
Like, I’ve got a tiny lady colleague who’s vegan and she’s never been in a conflict from being vegan.
Meanwhile, me as a big dude, I will get various males who take it as a personal affront:
- those who are just insecure about their own food choice,
- those who take every interaction with other males as a competition for who’s better (me telling them I’m doing it for ethical reasons means I’m saying their ethics are bad),
- those who are stuck in their old ways (women can eat salads, not men though),
- and last but definitely not fucking least, (ex-)military dudes who are personally disappointed that, despite me having the physique of their military buddies, I have different values.
This is especially also amplified on the countryside, where not only progressive ideas take longer to arrive, you’ve also got farmers with skin in the game.
In my hometown, there’s a pig farmer. Holy fuck, for that guy, my mere existence was a statement that his entire livelihood is immoral.
Halal eaters and teetotalers don’t try to preach as and convert as often, perhaps?
(I support vegans and I dont mock them, for the record.)
Why do people call it preaching?
It’s baffling that “Hey maybe hamburgers aren’t worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?”
Is talked about in the same language as “Invisible sky person is deeply concerned about your masturbating habits and you are going to suffer for it!”
Just curious, do you not see how that would frustrate someone who is not vegan? If your goal is to be confrontational, that little speech definitely hits the mark, but if you’re not, perhaps reflect on the preaching.
Personally, eat what you want to eat. The more vegans and vegetarians around, the better those food choices will be for everyone.
Why would it be frustrating? It is just true. There’s no personal attack there, I’m not calling someone anything. It’s just reality, if you eat hamburgers that is what happened to get it to your plate. If you don’t think cows have feelings it shouldn’t bother you, if you think cows have feelings but they don’t matter very much it shouldn’t bother you, if you do find it bothersome to think about but eat hamburgers that’s on you not me.
Quite seriously, either you are ok with what you do or you are not. How is talking about it frustrating or confrontational?
I don’t feel bad when I prune a tree, and if you talk about rows and rows of fruit trees being pruned and how they’re slathered in nutrients and watered heavily to produce fruit before a harvester violently shakes them I feel neither confronted nor frustrated. I have no reason to even slightly suspect that treatment is wrong. Surely if feedlots and slaughterhouses are morally good or neutral I would at worst seem vaguely silly.
Ok, so I’m sure when you pick up your iPhone you’d love to have someone tell you how much abuse and suffering so many steps in the supply chain involve from the raw material harvesting, terrible working conditions to assemble them, etc.
Just pointing out that what you are doing is the literal definition of preaching. Not sure why you are surprised.
Yes actually, I don’t deal with problems by ignoring them. That’s uh, why I have a second hand phone.
See, when something I’m doing upsets me and conflicts with my self image as a person who tries to do good I stop doing that thing. What do you do?
You know what, I would. If there is a problem that I’m unknowingly part of, it’s better to know and maybe do something about it than to ignore it.
I can’t say I will go live to a hut im the forest with no technology, but will at least be mindful of it and tried to minimize it. If I could afford a new iPhone, I’d certainly rather buy me a Fairphone. There are options and the options are a spectrum, not one or the other.
Why do people call it preaching?
I was expecting something like “some just mention it and move on”. Instead…
It’s baffling that “Hey maybe hamburgers aren’t worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?”
lol
Preaching doesn’t mean lying or talking about unimportant things, nothing you said contradicts the idea its preaching.
Preaching is when you describe your beliefs in an attempt to convert other people, or to change their behavior.
Why do people call it preaching?
Because despite it being logical to a point, usually the ones who wish to talk about can’t actually explain the rationale for some of the more extremely ends of the philosophy.
I’m completely against industrial meat farming, but for instance game meat from deer that were killed for deer management?
Obviously a vegan will take the position that “eating meat is wrong, you’re killing just for pleasure” usually. Which obviously isn’t true, as there’s no “just for pleasure”, becsuse we’re not talking about trophy hunting, but deer management, which is crucial and without which a lot of animals (and humans) would end up sick, suffering and dying as the ecosystem would overpopulate with deer, leading to a cascade of bad consequences, destroying the environment and the animals in it.
I support vegan products and consider myself a flexitarian, but I do also consume the occasional meat product. Preferably when it’s cruelty free game meat.
Sheep are also another thing. Unless we plan to systematically eradicate the species, then we must tend to some sheep at least, which will mean shearing them, as that’s required for their health. So then we end up with wool. Should that wool not be used? Would it be cruel to use that wool?
That of course again doesn’t mean I’m not fervently against the horrible practices of the large sheep industry. It’s just a question of “can’t you see the eventual problems that taking a position so extreme would yield?”
And questioning these things can upset people, as it’d require flexing the ideology a bit, and that’s something a lot of fervent vegans seem to have issues with. Which is apparent through say, using words like “carnist” to describe anyone who isn’t 100% vegan. Almost in the same way dogmatic religions call anyone disagreeing “a heretic”.
In the same way that monotheistic Abrahamic religions are, most of the “fighting” rhetoric of vegans is very much dogmatic.
You’ve invented a vegan in your head to be smarter than. My vegan stance on culls is found here: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/11017095
Context of super necessary (apparently) kangaroo culls.
Species don’t suffer, only individuals do. This defense of sheep implies we need to keep breeding pugs, or that if I were to make supersheep who lived ever minute of the day screaming in agony it would be bad to stop breeding them. An absurd stance.
In the interim selling wool creates perverse incentives and if it’s a humanitarian effort (so to speak) we should use it for ends which don’t profit us.
Your objections are standard and tedious, your examples of extremism in the ideology are actually examples of moderate stances.
I’ve never met a vegan that finds it morally objectional to scavange meat, assuming you aren’t creating perverse incentives. Our objections are to suffering, you should probably stop tilting at strawmen.
I’m vegan with a somewhat differing view on culls, having worked for the EPA and with national parks. I agree that a better solution than culling would be ideal, and that no life wants to be killed or population managed. However, we cull because of our past failings. We wiped out natural predators in many areas that kept a balance, and now, if left unchecked, deer will eat themselves into starvation, and devastate their ecosystem. It would be death on a massive scale if unmanaged, and would even affect humans. I think it’s a far smaller crime to kill a few deer and manage populations at safe levels, than to allow the mass starvation of entire ecosystems because of our past destruction of that balance.
Better solutions have been proposed. Ideally, where we can, we reintroduce native predators and protect their populations until they’re stable. Is that different from killing for population control? We’re introducing animals for the explicit purpose of hunting and killing deer in order to keep a balance. If that’s wrong, then should we kill all predators? Of course not, but I digress. Those aren’t arguments I think you’d make, and I’m not suggesting you’d agree whatsoever, but those are the perspectives we think about. Many many smart people have tackled this issue, and we have not found a better solution than culling. Sometimes, we’ve done some of what you suggested, and attempted to reduce fertility rates, though I see the same moral issue there as well. No sentient creature wants to be neutered or drugged to prevent reproduction. However, it’s better than hunting in certain circumstances, and something has to be done. This isn’t a problem that can be ignored to reduce environmental impacts in other areas. Overpopulation will happen, and it is devastating. I wish there was a simple solution, but we made mistakes when we destroyed the native ecosystem, and now it falls to us to keep it from totally collapsing.
But why not humans? and why make a sport of it and celebrate it, why eat them?
Like if species with a tendency to breed to ecosystem collapse should be killed, aren’t we top of the list?
Without getting all Agent Smith about it, yes, humans are an ecological disaster. I’m not trying to throw charged what-ifs back and forth. We solve the problems we can. Can you clarify what you’re saying? I agree that no animal should be killed by humans, but I also recognize that we must work with the solutions we have. Are you suggesting that we stop cullings and allow overpopulation to happen?
I strongly agree that hunting should not be a sport. I also believe that if we’re going to kill an animal, we should at least use the corpse to feed back into the ecosystem, and I don’t begrudge those that eat the things they hunt, if necessary. Many people subsist off hunting to survive, and while I disagree with the concept of hunting another animal for food, I won’t suggest that they starve, especially when they’re filling a vital ecosystem role. If we don’t need the food though, we should not be hunting animals for food. I don’t know if my opinion is well founded enough to defend the position that if an animal is killed, tragically necessarily, for culling, it should not be eaten. I believe that to be true, but I can’t defend that position with anything but my personal feelings and beliefs. On some level, I understand the argument that if an animal must be killed, then it’s wasteful to not use the meat. Regardless of either argument, I strongly disagree with trophy hunting, and find any hunting for sport abhorrent.
I hope you can see the nuanced nature of my position. I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate or be contrarian. I have a well-formed belief from my experiences, and I am trying to argue my position, and don’t think you have to agree with me, nor do I expect you to. I do not see a large scale alternative to culling at the moment. I think those types of alternatives are being pursued by some in the industry, but the scale is small. I also do not believe it’s an option to allow populations to grow uncontrollably. I believe allowing that to happen would be as morally reprehensible as hunting for sport, as it’s neglecting a duty we have to sustain an ecosystem that we damaged. I am open and interested in any and all alternatives to culling, but I’ve heard none that haven’t been tried or that haven’t been able to succeed at scale.
I went to sleep, I may write something more sensible when I have more patience but I suspect the difference is mostly speciesm. I think we ought not to discriminate in ways we treat species and standards we have about appropriate interventions. I agree that in the short terms there may not be good options but like suppose there are 5 spots on a liferaft and 10 people, that doesn’t really make leaving 5 people to drown OK and you defs shouldn’t outsource it to random yahoos that enjoy killing people.
Given we can’t like distribute condoms and the pill to like kangaroos or deer or whatever there may be no good answers in the short term, but killing should be the absolute last resort. Like we should be closing farms for more land, managing forests for better outcomes, reducing fertility if we can and so on long before we kill. If we do kill we need to make sure it is done with a sole focus on harm reduction, which the way culls are done now is defs not true and we ought to be happy to apply the same reasoning to human beings (basically that we have tried everything else we can and because we can’t reason violence is all that’s left).
You’re a mod and didn’t like the reply so you deleted it.
And you pretend you don’t know what I mean when I say some vegans get upset and have issues with replying to these arguments, lol.
You’re welcome to engage in good faith. I have infinite patience for anyone genuinely interested in discussion. It is against the rules of this community to post antivegan rhetoric.
Your initial comment was borderline butI decided to engage in good faith. Then you didn’t engage with anything I said and said a few random gotchas. Other mods are welcome to intervene if they felt I removed your comment in error.
If you would like to rephrase your reply and write a better one you are welcome to do so.
There’s no gotchas, and it is in good faith.
This post is about how vegans engage with non-vegans.
I noted that often many vegans who are arguing on online forums (this is something I also specified in both comments, because I acknowledge and respect the fact that small online communities don’t necessarily represent everyone, or even most people) are often very dogmatic. This can be seen from them getting very upset when they can’t answer certain rhetoric.
Case in point; you deleting a reply you found hard to answer and then pretending I’m arguing in bad faith.
You clearly say that you think vegans don’t have an issue with “scavanged” meat. (“Scavenged”, btw.) This implies that you think vegans would agree that hunting and eating game meat is acceptable and even necessary. Do you think that? (Note, I’m not assuming you do. I’m asking, in good faith.)
The second question is about sheep, since you clearly say that stopping their breeding is the answer. Stopping breeding will lead to the extinction of a species, this is a rather clear consequence. Again, I’m asking this in good faith, exactly because it’s a hard question to answer. Asking the hard questions is often when the dogmatic attitudes are revealed.
But it is in the interest veganism to try to satisfactorily answer these questions to develop as an ideology. If it can’t do that, then it has to change. If it can’t answer, but won’t change either, then it is dogmatic.
If you can do the following:
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comment on the content of my post on culling
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talk about hunting and perverse incentives
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edit your reply in the context of sheep species perpetuation to address what I had to say about super sheep/pugs, how wool is used
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edit your reply to differentiate hunting versus scavenging
I will engage with you. Otherwise I will be recommending you get banned.
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You can only comment here under the guise of good faith for so long. You’re trying to bait a certain response so that you can “prove” a point and put words in other people’s mouths.
@Dasus @naevaTheRat Why do you care about this stuff? Why does your energy flow towards arguing specifics with vegans? Go engage with meat eaters that don’t care whether or not their food was factory farmed instead.
Halal eaters do try to convert you, but to their religion, not their eating habits.
They are also made fun of for that.
People genuinely don’t like to be told what they are doing is wrong.
Every single social media platform in existence has the option to block people. Or you could just, you know, scroll past. You don’t need to care about other people, even less so people who go out of their way to try and hurt you.
Social settings exist outside of social media platforms
They aren’t crying about or anything, just saying it doesn’t make sense. I’d be pretty annoyed if people felt the need to joke about my food preference all the time, too
Social settings exist outside of social media platforms
They aren’t crying about or anything
I was responding to what OP wrote in the post:
“We can’t even talk in this community dedicated to vegans without someone coming along and meatsplaining.”
I’ve edited my comment to make it clear what I was responding to.
I think my point still stands, OP isn’t crying about it or anything. I’m not a vegan but I’ve definitely been annoyed by the things omnivores say here.
Relevant thread:
Most of us could not care less if you only want to eat vegetables for the rest of your life. I’ve really only ever seen /u/militantvegan get ripped a new one. That’s the guy that was asking about for tips to replace other people’s food against their will.
Furries could know better.
To reiterate my opinion is that most people don’t give a second thought to whether you are vegan or vegetarian or an omnivore ect. I’m not telling you how to live your life. I’m telling you we as in most of lemmy literally don’t care about where your calories come from.
I’m commenting here on topic here in a open thread on a public forum on a public server after said thread graced my feed.
I’m not complaining about vegans just a particular vegan. Just like there are flurries that suck and ruin the brand there are vegans that suck too for the same reasons. I’m certain there is a non zero overlap between the two groups.
I’m certain there is a non zero overlap between the two groups.
The only furry I know IRL is vegan, so anecdotical evidence I guess?
Dated a vegan, wonderful person, one of the finest women I’ve ever known. But all she could converse about was running, veganism, minimalism, veganism and veganism. And occasionally, vegan stuff.
We talked a good deal about the vegan life. I wanted to know more since I’d never known a vegan. My god. NOTHING but a strict diet was good enough.
Cutting down on meat consumption? LOL, what a paltry contribution. Vegetarians? You mean animal exploiters? What about simple organisms with a pinhead for a central nervous system? Oysters and shrimp and bugs and such. “They’re still animals.” I wanted to raise chickens for eggs. Exploitation! Honeybees? Slaves.
One night over dinner I suggested that solving energy issues was more important in the grand scheme. We could cut or halt global warming, which is surely causing animals a great deal of pain, not to mention extinction. If energy were near free, we could afford to explore options like lab-grown meat. Hard no from her.
She was very patient and kind, but still.
I knew it wouldn’t work when she was talking to her daughter one night about this wonderful man she was dating and all the fun stuff we had done that she had never experienced.
“Um, he’s not vegan?”
“No, but…”
“Mom, he’s not vegan?”
Her daughter was trying to gently point out the red flag. I caught the clue.
Veganism is (mostly) binary for a reason. You either kill and exploit non-human animals for your pleasure (taste, comfort, affordability, i.e. a want) or you don’t (exceptions exist, but mostly represent needs and not wants, e.g. conditions, intial acclimatisation etc.)
Veganism and Vegetarianism are not two steps of the same ladder. I’m not an expert on vegetarianism, but AFAIK vegetarianism aims to avoid meat-eating. Veganism aims to minimise suffering from the killing and exploitation of (non-human) animals by abstaining from consuming products directly made from (non-human) animals.
Veganism isn’t inherently utilitarian. I don’t agree with them, but there are vegans who are climate change (impact) denialists. I don’t agree that giving up on veganism (which has huge climate action potential) for some vague ‘free energy’ is a viable climate action path that doesn’t follow RCP8.5. Nevertheless, I consider those either-or, dichotomy debates as delayist discourse or simply put fossil fuel arguments. Food AND Energy need to cut emissions completely.
Seems like the obvious answer is that religion is a protected class and veganism isn’t.
It protects all religions and a wide range of philosophical beliefs including atheism, humanism, agnosticism, veganism and pacifism.
Edit: Found it
Don’t you know that everyone in the internet is American? Thanks for the link :)
I’m vegan and i make fun of everyone who only eats food touched by a magician. I don’t even understand how they compare. One is a choice the other ones got indoctrinated by people who vut their dicks for fun.
What you’re referring to are legal classifications that prevent discrimination in very specific circumstances such as when applying for a job. When someone decides to make fun of vegans they absolutely DO NOT think to themselves “is that a legally protected class? No? Okay, I’m in the clear.” This reasoning is blatantly incorrect.
If this were the actual reason then why do people also discriminate against groups that are protected classes like women? The answer is because we aren’t in a court. We are talking about social values, not legal ones. Despite how much of a fucking asshole it would make someone to be misogynistic in their daily life there is nothing preventing them from doing so other than the fear of being outcast by their peers. It only becomes illegal in very specific circumstances.
They aren’t consciously going through a checklist in their head. But legal influences societal. Maybe in the past they made fun of someone’s funny hat, got in trouble for it, got annoyed at a preachy vegan and now shits on vegans instead.
No class is protected from comedy.
Alt text for image:
A screenshot of a post by a user “Brusswole Sprouts” with the handle “@swolesprouts”. The post reads as follows:
I’ve been vegan for over 10 years and I still don’t understand why it’s acceptable to make fun of vegans in social settings while you would never make fun of someone eating halal or not drinking for religious or cultural reasons.
Why is vegan culture less deserving of your respect?
Relevant paper
Cole M, Morgan K. Vegaphobia: derogatory discourses of veganism and the reproduction of speciesism in UK national newspapers. Br J Sociol. 2011 Mar;62(1):134-53. doi: 10.1111/j.1468-4446.2010.01348.x. PMID: 21361905.
I’m not anti-vegan. I know this sounds corny, but two of my close friends are vegan. In general I have wonderful meals with them. I will say that some of THEIR vegan friends can be pretty obnoxious and judgemental about others’ food choices in some circumstances.
That very often causes back and forth (and hurt feelings on both sides). I know it can be very offputting for a vegan to eat with a carnist, so I’m usually very conscious about what I order when I’m with vegans, but I honestly think not everyone understands that eating meat around a vegan can be an affront/insulting, which (generally) makes it different from the comparisons made here.
Religious food restrictions, in my experience, don’t involve disgust about others’ food decisions who don’t share those religious commitments. That doesn’t mean vegans who are disgusted by seeing meat being eaten is wrong or worse or anything, but I do think that’s partially where some of this friction arises from.
Unlike most religious or cultural reasons for not eating certain foods or drinking alcohol, veganism is often a morally “other-regarding” choice, which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists. I think that’s the main reason people can sometimes be rude towards vegans: I think it’s preemptive defensiveness for thinking they’re going to be judged.
I generally don’t eat meat around vegans simply out of respect. Similarly, if I’m eating with people who have religious or cultural dietary restrictions, I tend to just follow suit. I enjoy dining with people. I’m there for the conversation and company; eating something delicious that makes everyone comfortable isn’t much of a sacrifice.
which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists
I would disagree with this portion of your post if it said most or all vegans. I have found most vegans are making a personal decision without passing judgement on others.
Even so, there absolutely are militant vegans who want to shame others, and those vocal minority give the rest a bad name.
Source: Spouse is vegan. I am supportive, slowly changing my diet. Blood tests show really positive results. I still don’t understand honey.
I mean that’s not only vegans. On tinder i see a ton of militant meat eaters and anti vegans. Vegans or vegetarians literally say: i’m vegan, would be nice if you were too. While the other side of the coin is: real men eat meat, sorry not sorry. I eat meat, because i enjoy food too much. Please no vegans. I met one super annoying vegan in my life who said: eating meat is like paedophilia, once you fucked a child you’ll always be a childfucker. On the other hand every time someone puts one and one together and realises that i’m a vegan, they tell me how bad it is and how good meat is and that it sucks.
The short version:
https://ko-fi.com/post/Unveiling-the-Bitter-Side-of-Honey-M4M5N7135
https://www.fastcompany.com/90457908/eating-honey-is-more-complicated-than-you-might-think
If you know anything about apiculture, then you know that it’s part of animal farming/raising (zootechny) in the same vein as pastoralism.
To be blunt, you’re the sort of person I try to avoid having dinner with. And I think that’s good for both of us.
The fact that you think your pleasureful experience is what matters is part of the problem. It’s not about you.
Eating a meal with friends should be a pleasurable experience. It’s not about me, it’s about us at that meal, which is what I’ve been discussing. I just get the sense that you wouldn’t be someone that I would have over for a vegan dinner party, you know?
You are quite literally projecting.
I have been a beekeeper for years. I agree that the bees are NOT in their natural habitat. However, I keep a significantly better control of the environment than the bees do in this habitat. It is better for the surrounding area, and I have talked my neighbors out of pesticide use because my bees will help pollinate their gardens and trees.
One extra note from the ko-fi article: I have never, ever heard of the practice of trimming queen wings. That is vicious, and I would never do that. Let the bees be bees. If they leave, I wasn’t doing a good enough job of supporting them. I am not a commercial beekeeper, though. Merely someone who likes being around them all year.
You are having regular blood tests? Is there a reason for this?
Yes. Some health concerns started me thinking about my diet. Regular blood tests in my case means one baseline to basically kick everything off, followed by another 6 weeks later, and 2 subsequent follow up.
I think that’s a reasonable criticism, however, most vegans (not all) see meat eating as an immoral act. Whether they express it or not, I have found very few vegans that don’t have strong opinions about flesh being consumed. Especially in front of them. I try to respect that.
I hunt, fish, and believe that domestically raised animals on small, well tended farms live a better life with less suffering and fear than animals in the wild.
Cortisol level tests support that. Being eaten alive by other animals isn’t exactly “better” than being eaten after being dead. And not knowing when/if you’re going to suddenly have your neck broken and then feasted upon by predatory animals while still alive and breathing, which I’ve seen many times, is nothing to sneeze at.
But factory farming is the most disgusting thing humans ever invented, and it is extreme violence, and I hate it with every fiber of my being. No living thing should be treated that way.
I think this lack of respect is something new. I dont know when, but the other (pretty illogical and believe-driven) habits are all older than veganism
My wife and I are mostly vegetarian (vegetarian, plus meat once per week plus leftovers or every other week) just because we like it more, environmental reasons, healthier, etc. We have zero problem with 95% of vegans, I’ll cook vegan meals if any vegan friends or friends of friends are coming over, eat at mostly or fully vegan restaurants if going out with vegan friends, etc. It’s not a big deal and has no reason to be one.
However - I say 95% for a reason. The 5% are people like my MIL. She lectures us about how eating any animal products is wrong every time we see her, spouts bogus facts with no actual sources to anyone she can get to listen (going vegan will cure cancer, diabetes, and autism within 8 weeks), and is generally insufferable to be around now because she will bring it up out of nowhere.
I don’t hate vegans at all, I hate people that are pretentious assholes about being vegan
I don’t hate vegans at all, I hate people that are pretentious assholes about being vegan
Which is zero vegans.
It is wrong though. Like you clearly care but what, it’s ok to do a little evil as a treat? why?
Evil is a relative term. I could argue that capitalism is evil, or buying things that can’t be recycled, or Catholicism. Maybe start with asking yourself how you justify doing things someone else might think of as evil before using it as some sort of magic bullet argument.
Forcibly impregnating someone, kidnapping their baby, and taking their breast milk is like when you buy potatoes.
If you said gold or diamonds I would absolutely agree with you. Potatoes? That’s mainly just child labor, wage theft, and giving farm workers cancer.
yeah the hardest part of being vegan is interacting with non vegans. gotta love how the default response to veganism (you know that thing we do to try to better the planet and animal rights and shit) is to argue as if doing something about the issues you care about is a negative trait.
mfs always got something to say and love attacking a thing that as far as i’m aware is proven to be better for personal health, the environment, your wallet, and animals.
Honestly I’ve been so quiet about it offline, and one time I just said no thanks to cake as I don’t eat dairy, etc, and the whole room alternately made fun of me and told me why I was wrong and meatsplaines until I got up and left.
i hear you - i’ve basically learned to avoid any topic or activity related to food with other people irl, which really sucks.
cooking is one of my favorite hobbies, can’t talk to my friends about it anymore. hell, a close friend from high school completely stopped talking to me because we had literally one very reasonable and civil (from my perspective) debate about veganism. it’s been years since i heard from them.
i got a single one of my close friends to even consider trying it, and i’ve been too anxious to even bring it up since last we spoke about it - a couple years ago now. they didn’t seem to believe in the ethics/lifestyle of it and i’m terrified of learning that this person i care so much about has decided that their sensory pleasure is worth more than the lives of the animals they eat.
my experiences with speaking about veganism to the people that i care about is that it is a taboo subject; one that will make other people upset with me and potentially ruin relationships. and i think that fucking sucks.
I even posted a picture of my dinner one night on Facebook, and it happened to catch a picture of my spouse’s dinner across from mine which visibly had cheese on it as he’s not vegan, and all my friends pounced on it and began haranguing me, they obviously thought it was hilarious.
One of my CW is vegan, and another staff member brought her a frosted cake, and just said to her “Oh sorry didn’t have time to get a vegan cake”, and stood there expecting her to eat it. Like what do they not get? We commiserate a lot. My spouse is also on a special diet for gastroparesis, which means he can’t have corn and legumes as well as other things, and that makes our mealtimes really fraught with arguments.
So I feel you. Most people don’t get it at all.
We have a friend with an egg allergy, dairy allergy, and MMA. They’re vegan as well by choice but it’s made me very careful. I’ve briefly upset a few vegans and vegetarians by questioning them in a bit more depth. It’s happened much less over time as I’ve refined how I clarify and ask.
I’m always amused when someone says vegetarian. Okay, what type? Can I serve you cheese? Eggs? Fish? One of my coworkers is also vegetarian but eats chicken…which was new to me.
I thought the chicken one was just a meme from the 90’s because it was somewhat common for vegetarians to eat chicken. An old lady asked me if i eat fish, after asking me all kinds of other questions. She went: not even fish?? But they don’t have blood. What does that has to do with anything, and yes they do.
Just decline without giving a reason
If pressed, say you don’t feel like it
