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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Places like gay bars and cafes were made with the explicit purpose of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ folk. We HAD to create safe spaces because so many straight people want to inflict harm on us or wish that we were exterminated. Being around you means we cannot be ourselves fully because we will always hesitate. We will always wonder “Are you one of the good ones?” We spend our lives tiptoeing around straight people wondering if we can be ourselves or if we have to hide it to protect us from the psychotic amount of negativity and hatred that we have to deal with for merely existing.
I don’t care if you’re one of the good ones or not. By simply being there you are changing the entire makeup of an LGBTQ+ space. You are adding in fear, apprehension and confusion into a place that was never supposed to have it. Moreover, you’re treating us like a novelty. Like we made this place for you to feel safe in. You are ignoring us and forcing us out of our own spaces. There are multiple “gay bars” that I have been to that no longer have predominately gay clientele and have started leaning towards advertising for straight people. Why? Because so many people showed up to “feel safe” that it pushed every single one of us out.
It isn’t for you. You do not belong there. Stop feeling and acting so entitled to a place that has nothing to do with you and that was made with the explicit purpose to be free from you. Give us back our spaces that we made for us and stop whining when we dare to say that.
Your feelings are not more important than our identity, safety and peace of mind.
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Hi everyone, OP’s either a troll or a poorly guided person. Exclusion has never worked. Safe spaces are not about insulating yourself from what you don’t agree with. Safe spaces are where you have support and protection from people who’d do you harm.
Exclude straights? What about bisexuals? What about bis in a hetero relationship? What about women, are you going to card them to see if they’re straight or not? What about hetero-presenting gays? You see how this works, right?
What about the “straights” who might be gay & are looking for support? OP apparently doesn’t support any LGBTQ+ person unless they fit their idea of what “gay” is. More than incisive, it’s absurd. Bordering on hilarious.
Something specific has clearly upset OP, and it’s not literally every heterosexual in the world. Heteros should be welcome in LGBTQ+ environments, and if you’re not into that kind of inclusion I’d like you to take a moment, suck a dick, and remember you are also responsible for creating a safe space for other LGBTQ+ people.
Additionally, what about ace/aro people? Het trans people? Cis/het gender-non-conforming people? And the one stated previously that really stood out to me: what about those questioning?
There’s no hard line between Us and Them and trying to draw one only hurts us. If there are people causing problems in these spaces, kick them out, but gatekeeping isn’t the right move here.
While needing a safe space makes perfect sense to me, I do wonder how others in the community feel about building a culture of exclusion like this. It feels counter to the principles of acceptance and inclusion that I thought were foundational to the LGBTQ+ rights movement, and it seems to me that this kind of dividing sentiment is the exact tactic that so many hostile entities are employing nowadays to sow discord amongst us.
Dude. It was founded on a culture of exclusion.
What did the straights do other than exclude us? Kill us, torture us, arrest us, everything else under the sun. So we made a space for us that excluded them. A place where we could feel safe that those things wouldn’t happen.
There is a drastic difference between inclusivity and accepting all throughout pride and the community as a whole and then saying “Certain spaces you shouldn’t be in because they’re not for you.” I don’t understand what is so difficult for people to grasp. It’s just pure entitlement. “They made this space to get away from us and feel safe, therefore we should be allowed to go in there and change the entire makeup of the space which completely nullifies the original purpose of said space.”
It is nothing more other than pure entitlement from straight people who have managed to convince people in the community that they should be allowed in places designed to be free from them. Boundaries are allowed to exist. It isn’t all or nothing. You can be inclusive in some spaces and still say “Please stay out of these so we can be ourselves and free.” Moreover, historically when people move into safe areas that they don’t belong in, friction happens and the area fails. Either the original purpose is lost and it is no longer inherently what it was or people get hurt which makes the place feel unsafe and then it no longer is inherently what it was.
It is supposed to be the ONE place that we don’t have to hide ourselves, be anything other than ourselves and are able to celebrate ourselves and here you are saying no. You should bring in people who aren’t that who then force us to inherently suppress ourselves due to <gestures at world>.
Yes, you’ve made your opinions on the matter quite clear. Despite the homophobic discrimination I’ve faced myself, I personally can’t agree with this sentiment at all because I hate the idea of not being able to go with my friends to a fun hangout spot just because some militant prick says some of them are the “wrong” kind of person. The orientation or gender of the people around me doesn’t by itself inhibit me from being who I am, and that doesn’t sound healthy. On the subject, it’s probably not healthy to assume that the downvotes are all from “entitled straights”. Wouldn’t want to slip into a No True Scotsman fallacy now, would we?
Despite my own feelings, I would still like to hear from other people in the community on the matter. I’ve lived in very tolerant places most of my life, and I’m not familiar with the scene in a place like Kentucky or North Carolina or what have you.
Then it is like I said. You are actively putting your own feelings above the group and ignoring the core purpose of it.
For the record, I’m from Toronto. So, I am in a very tolerant place. The problem is that it’s too fucking tolerant. We’ve been pushed out of our places. Church/Wellesley used to be the bustling the center of gay town and it’s been utterly gentrified by straight people who felt more and more comfortable in all of the gay bars and all of the spaces and starting turning the entire area into something homogenous. It fragmented the community and resulted in a second gay area starting up. Why? Because we got pushed out of our space with tolerance. We couldn’t be ourselves anymore. We couldn’t hit on someone randomly in the bar because they might be straight. Suddenly the entire atmosphere drastically shifted from a relaxed vibe for us to a minefield. Slowly turned into just another straight bar. We had to go back to figuring out whether or not someone was straight first, something that is insanely exhausting. So we had to go and make yet another space that was just for us where that wouldn’t happen and we could just be ourselves. No stressing over that. No second guessing whether or not they were gay. Having an assurance of it and being free.
And you’re right. The downvotes aren’t just entitled straights. It’s also entitled LGBTQ+ folk and LGBTQ+ folk who are completely ignorant of their own history and community.
We’re currently on step 3.
And if you hit on someone who is not into you, a polite refusal should not be problematic regardless of the reason. There is no reason these spaces cannot be safe, as well as including allies. If you want to presuppose violent intent based on orientation, that’s your issue, not anyone else’s.
Me: The problem is that when straight people are in a gay bar we have to second guess whether or not they’re straight which defeats the entire purpose of a gay bar which is to be assured that someone is gay.
You: Yeah but a refusal shouldn’t be a problem.
The refusal isn’t the problem. The problem is that it isn’t for you. Why is it that women are allowed to have women only gyms but we can’t have a bar.
There is no reason these spaces cannot be safe, as well as including allies. If you want to presuppose violent intent based on orientation, that’s your issue, not anyone else’s.
But lets take your opinion seriously for a fraction of a second and adopt it. Does it have a limit and if so where is it? Gay bars are fine but what about LGBTQ+ shelters and group homes? I mean, we’re just presupposing violent intent based on orientation, right? So clearly that isn’t a thing anymore. We can’t have those spaces. “But that’s ridiculous, of course we need those spaces” would completely undermine your entire argument and that one can pressuppose violent intent based on orientation which is something our community actively does because we’re actively persecuted. But lets handwave away that argument and move on to something else. Male only bathhouses. Are they allowed to keep existing? Or are they forced to become co-ed to cater to all sexual orientations?
Things are not black and white like you’re trying to pretend they are. It’s very, very grey and that line of ‘presupposing violent intent based on orientation’ is frankly ridiculous.
We couldn’t be ourselves anymore. We couldn’t hit on someone randomly in the bar because they might be straight. Suddenly the entire atmosphere drastically shifted from a relaxed vibe for us to a minefield.
The only reason I can think of that you would want assurance someone is gay when you hit on them is that you might believe you could reasonably expect violence from hitting on a straight person. Did I assume that’s why, since it’s the only reason I could think of and you have already called out violence as one of the underpinning reasons you hold this opinion? Yes, I did.
I’m sorry you can’t hear how you sound. Therapy will help, if you find the right therapist. Good luck.
You’re the most selfish and entitled person in this thread, assuming that you alone get to decide what the “purpose” of these spaces are. Many in the community disagree with you, as is evident in this thread, but you presume you speak for all? Not everybody hates “the straights” the way that you obviously do.
You sound like a tankie.
Flip gay and straight in your post, and try to think about how the statement could ever possibly be justified.
Being anything other than an ally in such a place is absolutely reprehensible, I agree. Existing there is not quite as high of a crime.
Flip gay and straight in your post, and try to think about how the statement could ever possibly be justified.
Okay. It literally takes half a second worth of thought. If you flip the argument it’s the majority actively suppressing the minority. In its current form it’s a minority trying to protect its identity, culture and community.
That wasn’t the take you thought it was. That argument could be used to say that minorities do not get to have their own minority specific spaces to celebrate themselves