How is advocating for a worker state to the right of supporting the Capitalist status quo? You don’t have to agree with it being a good or a bad idea to understand that what you said is fundamentally wrong.
Is “Tankie” just a descriptor for an extreme fringe among Marxists, or is it meant to refer to Marxists in general?
What is a tankie? Like, where do you draw the line between Marxists, Anarchists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, and Tankies? Are only Maoists tankies? Are some Marxist-Leninists tankies, and some not? What turns someone from wanting a worker state run by the proletariat into a tankie, who presumably by your definition is actually Capitalist?
Genuinely asking here, I have been called a tankie for saying people should read Marx, it seems everyone has their own definition of what is permissable and what isn’t.
Tankies are authoritarians. They advocate for and defend centralized and/or entrenched power. At the same time they also advocate for economic nationalization. They believe the latter - “economically benevolent authoritarianism” - makes them leftist. It does not.
In reality, they are merely advocates of bog-standard extreme rightism… feudalism, monarchy, oligarchy, and the like. If your economy and industry is mostly or wholly owned by the state, but the state is run by an entrenched ruling class, then the economy and industry belong to the ruling class, NOT to the people.
One cannot be leftist and also advocate for consolidation or entrenchment of wealth or power… those are literally the defining traits of rightism.
“To the left of” is relative. Progressive liberals are left of conservative liberals as well as most if not all tankies. (it depends on how you metricize all the disparate positions into a single dimension) there are probably some conservative liberals that are to the right of most tankies, but again it depends on your metricizing parameters.
I’m a Libertarian Socialist who gets along with Anarchists most of the time. I’m arguably to the right of them, but that doesn’t make me right-wing.
You’re spot on about the relativity, but there is an objective spectrum as well.
Right is about consolidating power; Left is about ensuring it is shared.
The extreme right is authoritarian. Any support for (or tolerance of) the consolidation of power and/or wealth is rightist.
The extreme left is egalitarian. Support for systems of shared power and/or wealth (and mechanisms for prevention of hoarding or entrenchment of either) is leftist.
So while you are correct about the relative positions to one another, it’s important to point out that, objectively, neither liberals nor tankies are leftist in any way, shape, or form.
Also, the spectrum isn’t a straight line, but a complex web. For example, just consider the “extremes”…
Extreme right power structures include monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, feudalism, etc. Because the nature of rightism is consolidation, those structures tend to look similar.
“Extreme” left power structures include direct democracy, communism (stateless), anarchism (which itself includes many flavors and definitions), and the like.
Since tankies openly advocate for consolidation of power, they are objectively far-right. Liberals will tolerate (sometimes even champion) the consolidation of wealth & power even if it destroys liberalism… because to them the means is more important the ends; ergo, they are slight right.
Humans being humans, there will always be “rightward pressure” on any social construct. Leftists need to recognize this and ensure than any leftist progress can withstand such pressure and avoid rightward drift. This is why liberals are so often despised by leftists… liberals seem leftist only to those so far on the right that they can’t see over the metaphorical moderate/centrist horizon. Likewise, tankies seem leftist to the same at first glance, because they advocate for more benevolent use of totalitarianism… but each ignores the objective spectrum… consolidation of wealth/power vs evenly shared wealth/power.
The anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois?
And your point is? If it’s that rightist means inevitably have rightist ends, that is correct. Thankfully, possibility is infinite, and not restricted to the false-choice of a binary fallacy.
I was passing out when I made the comment. What I really want to know is why why this entire thread is being downvoted to hell. Is it several tankies or just 1 with multiple accounts?
I’m one of the “tankies” downvoting the thread, but I just have the one account. You said something obviously wrong and the other person somehow managed to disagree with you while saying essentially the exact same wrong thing. It seemed like a pointless argument about nonsense.
I’m not disagreeing, I’m just building on what you said. ❤️
There’s a surprising number of people - especially in the US, that genuinely think that liberals are leftist… and not just leftist, but “radical left.”
They will also take tankies at their word that tankies are leftist, never mind the definitions.
I’m just expounding on what you said for bystanders, really. Sending good vibes your way, internet friend.
Liberals are often to the left of tankies.
How is advocating for a worker state to the right of supporting the Capitalist status quo? You don’t have to agree with it being a good or a bad idea to understand that what you said is fundamentally wrong.
Is “Tankie” just a descriptor for an extreme fringe among Marxists, or is it meant to refer to Marxists in general?
Often? They are “to the left of” by definition… but only relatively.
Liberals are center-right while tankies are extreme right (though they love to cosplay leftists by arguing that THEIR fascism is “benevolent”).
So neither is on the left at all.
What is a tankie? Like, where do you draw the line between Marxists, Anarchists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, and Tankies? Are only Maoists tankies? Are some Marxist-Leninists tankies, and some not? What turns someone from wanting a worker state run by the proletariat into a tankie, who presumably by your definition is actually Capitalist?
Genuinely asking here, I have been called a tankie for saying people should read Marx, it seems everyone has their own definition of what is permissable and what isn’t.
Tankies are authoritarians. They advocate for and defend centralized and/or entrenched power. At the same time they also advocate for economic nationalization. They believe the latter - “economically benevolent authoritarianism” - makes them leftist. It does not.
In reality, they are merely advocates of bog-standard extreme rightism… feudalism, monarchy, oligarchy, and the like. If your economy and industry is mostly or wholly owned by the state, but the state is run by an entrenched ruling class, then the economy and industry belong to the ruling class, NOT to the people.
One cannot be leftist and also advocate for consolidation or entrenchment of wealth or power… those are literally the defining traits of rightism.
So Marx was a tankie, got it.
“To the left of” is relative. Progressive liberals are left of conservative liberals as well as most if not all tankies. (it depends on how you metricize all the disparate positions into a single dimension) there are probably some conservative liberals that are to the right of most tankies, but again it depends on your metricizing parameters.
I’m a Libertarian Socialist who gets along with Anarchists most of the time. I’m arguably to the right of them, but that doesn’t make me right-wing.
You’re spot on about the relativity, but there is an objective spectrum as well.
Right is about consolidating power; Left is about ensuring it is shared.
The extreme right is authoritarian. Any support for (or tolerance of) the consolidation of power and/or wealth is rightist.
The extreme left is egalitarian. Support for systems of shared power and/or wealth (and mechanisms for prevention of hoarding or entrenchment of either) is leftist.
So while you are correct about the relative positions to one another, it’s important to point out that, objectively, neither liberals nor tankies are leftist in any way, shape, or form.
Also, the spectrum isn’t a straight line, but a complex web. For example, just consider the “extremes”…
Extreme right power structures include monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, feudalism, etc. Because the nature of rightism is consolidation, those structures tend to look similar.
“Extreme” left power structures include direct democracy, communism (stateless), anarchism (which itself includes many flavors and definitions), and the like.
Since tankies openly advocate for consolidation of power, they are objectively far-right. Liberals will tolerate (sometimes even champion) the consolidation of wealth & power even if it destroys liberalism… because to them the means is more important the ends; ergo, they are slight right.
Humans being humans, there will always be “rightward pressure” on any social construct. Leftists need to recognize this and ensure than any leftist progress can withstand such pressure and avoid rightward drift. This is why liberals are so often despised by leftists… liberals seem leftist only to those so far on the right that they can’t see over the metaphorical moderate/centrist horizon. Likewise, tankies seem leftist to the same at first glance, because they advocate for more benevolent use of totalitarianism… but each ignores the objective spectrum… consolidation of wealth/power vs evenly shared wealth/power.
And your point is? If it’s that rightist means inevitably have rightist ends, that is correct. Thankfully, possibility is infinite, and not restricted to the false-choice of a binary fallacy.
Is the use of force inherently rightist, in your mind, regardless of why it’s used?
You understand that I never suggested that liberals are left-wing and that was the entire point of my explanation?
There’s nothing stated here that I didn’t already know.
I’m not sure they were disagreeing with you.
I was passing out when I made the comment. What I really want to know is why why this entire thread is being downvoted to hell. Is it several tankies or just 1 with multiple accounts?
I’m one of the “tankies” downvoting the thread, but I just have the one account. You said something obviously wrong and the other person somehow managed to disagree with you while saying essentially the exact same wrong thing. It seemed like a pointless argument about nonsense.
Tankies aren’t leftists.
I’m not disagreeing, I’m just building on what you said. ❤️
There’s a surprising number of people - especially in the US, that genuinely think that liberals are leftist… and not just leftist, but “radical left.”
They will also take tankies at their word that tankies are leftist, never mind the definitions.
I’m just expounding on what you said for bystanders, really. Sending good vibes your way, internet friend.
Sorry, yesterday was a bit rough for me. 🙂
Been there. Hope you’re feeling better, today!