vegancirclejerk banned be for this image XD
Holy crap so edgy!
what a stupid meme. it’s almost like sharks don’t have arms and hands so they rely on their jaws more than we do. wow look we don’t have compartments in our stomach, we must not be fit to eat plants.
we dont have gills, so dont drink water
That’s…not what gills are for.
And our teeth aren’t for ripping flesh off the bone so it fits
Edit: we have hands and tools for that + we cook it
Yep. imagine going through life thinking all the smart people are dumb because you’re too fucking dumb to know how dumb you are.
Humans are omnivores. No way lefties are revising science on this too… right?
…
Right?
Science revises science all the time. Authoritarians do too but in a most unscientific way.
There are plenty of Leftists that are pro-science and anti-authoritarian. Please don’t lump us altogether.
Most things are omnivores. Some predators like cats are obligate carnivores (must eat meat to survive) but most creatures get nutrients wherever they can.
There’s a video of a deer straight up eating a baby chicken. It’s not built to be a predator, but when the opportunity presents itself…
Doubt it’s the lefties, but it’s for sure the vegans.
That venn diagram is damn near a perfect circle.
As a lefty vegan, let me assure you it is not. Just look at the comments in this thread and you’ll see tons of vegan hate on a mostly lefty lemmy.
Right…. And- of the vegans, I’d bet a large petition of them are lefties. That’s the point being made.
That’s not a near perfect circle. That’s a smaller circle inside of a larger circle.
Lefty omnivore here. Not hating on vegans just on the militant ones. I think vegan is the way to go but I’m not ready for it yet and hate being talked down to about it.
You can make incremental changes without fully committing. Vegans might talk down to you about it but are you doing it for them or are you doing it for you / the world.
Indeed.
I’m sorry but this is equally terrifying as the real thing.
Nah, don’t you understand? I’m literally designed to hunt and kill animals, just like other predators.
This gun? Well how else am i supposed to kill them? I don’t have any sort of claws or sharp teeth or anything designed to kill animals for sustinence
What do you mean why am i cooking the meat? I’ll get sick if i don’t, just like every other predator on the planet. Plus, i couldn’t even chew it if it were raw.
And all that is assuming natural = moral, which, if your moral code is equivilant to a lions, is not compatible with society. But it’s convenient to not change most people’s behavior, so they’re cool ignoring the logical conclusion of that argument.
This is not a valid argument. We literally evolved to use tools. And humans absolutely can eat raw meat
Maybe we evolved to use our brains to make and use tools. Maybe we’re currently evolving to use our brains to eat fewer animals.
Our ancestors fought their way to the top of the food chain over millions of years. It just feels wrong and ungrateful to eat a purely plant based diet. Like I’m betraying my own species.
I wouldn’t mind eating a vegan diet if there was a way to compensate. We could, for example, have a system where for every vegan meal sold someone strangles a small rodent.
Just because we evolved a relatively recent ability to do something, doesn’t mean that thing is necessarily in our best interest. As I said elsewhere in this post, we have some capacity for omnivory at a high health cost, but that doesn’t change that our deeper roots have structured us for more plant-dominant lifestyles.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/
We evolved to be susceptible to tobacco addiction. Also, tobacco smoking is an ancient human tradition.
The reason we cook most meats is because capitalism dictates it should be produced the cheapest possible way, leading to contaminations and other nasty stuff in the meat that require cooking it. Even salmonella isn’t present in raw chicken if the chicken grew in a clean environment eating clean food.
Dude what the fuck are you on about? Wild animals carry parasites and other harmful microorganisms that cooking removes. Are you seriously implying that modern farming is the reason we cook our food?
I know that capitalism is the boogeyman on lemmy and is the cause of all things bad, but this one really takes the cake.
Why so aggressive? I realize my original comment was maybe not clear and lacked context because I honestly just typed it in a bit of a rush without thinking too hard about it, but that’s no reason to put words in my mouth and attack me.
Obviously, wild animals can carry parasites and we certainly started dying from food born illnesses much less often once we figured out to cook the meat, that’s so basic I didn’t even think my comment could be interpreted that way. But that has little to do with the topic (which was whether we can digest raw meat) and ignores the myriad of dishes that are made of raw meat like steak tartare, torisashi, charcuterie, carpaccio, sushi, poisson cru a la tahitienne, etc etc.
The common theme of all these dishes is the meat is of high quality, butchered and prepared well (Vs minced meat full of cow shit because they don’t bother butchering them properly, for example). That was my only point.
Your statement, “Even salmonella isn’t present in raw chicken […]” implies that wild fowl–animals that don’t have to worry about sanitary conditions in modern, industrial farming–would be safe to eat raw. Taking sushi and sashimi as another example, that’s safe(-ish) only because they use ocean fish; there’s no freshwater sushi because freshwater fish carry parasites that can infect humans, and so isn’t safe, even from the most pristine lakes and streams in the world.
I’d say that modern farming–when the best practices are used–is the reason we’re able to eat things raw at all. When you look at feces from Romans up through late medieval Europeans, you see that most humans had all kinds of nasty intestinal parasites. (Also, a certain amount of parasitic infection seems to be good, because it keeps your autoimmune system from always being on ultra-high alert.)
Yes that’s fair, I can see how it was interpreted that way. The chicken example I had in mind was a specific one, and the chickens aren’t wild at all just well cared for and extreme care is given to the preparation, I didn’t have wild animals in mind at all which carry a whole bunch of other well known risks, only ones that are farmed in good conditions and used to prepare raw meat dishes every day across the globe.
If only more people were really aware of the health risks of consuming undercooked wild meat…
People do a lot of dumb shit. Some hunters still have a ritual of making a first-time hunter eat a raw heart from their first kill, which sounds like a great way to end up with a raging parasitic infection to me.
Another common theme of all those dishes is you never eat those things in communist countries.
because capitalism dictates
So your model of capitalism is that one can either provide value or make a profit, but not both because they’re opposing forces?
No man. The “free” part of the term “free market” means nobody has to buy shitty products.
It’s why we’re surrounded by abundant, diverse, high quality food: the only way to succeed under capitalism is to provide more value for the dollar than your competitors.
Somehow people think free markets cause a lack of alignment between what people value and what happens, but that’s exactly the opposite of what’s true.
Yes, because we evolved to eat body parts from animals who were raised in laboratory conditions? Get real, the majority of infectious outbreaks have a zoonotic origin. Covid was caused by carnists, and so is h5n1. You can’t have any animal domestication without an increase of pathogens.
Who talked about laboratory conditions? Just normal conditions like being outside, instead of the pool of shit battery chickens are raised in.
And as others have already said here, all other sources of animal foods are also unclean, because animals are unclean. Your idea of clean meat could only come from a laboratory - lab-grown animal-free meat, for example.
Ok buddy, guess I’m dead from all the charcuterie, steak tartare, carpaccio and sushi I’ve eaten in my life and typing this from hell (obviously wouldn’t be heaven, what with the meat eating and all).
I’m just assuming that you are, in fact, aware that the likely primary advantage of inventing cooking was that the food is partially broken down before we consume it, meaning we need much less time and energy digesting it, which leaves us with more time to do other things, which is a huge evolutionary advantage. Right? Of course, every child knows that most animals spend a significant amount of time just digesting food, far more than humans.
Well, since you’re clearly a well educated person that knows these things, I can’t find any other reasoning behind what you posted here than that you’re arguing in bad faith, or trolling. Please either read a book or stop trolling. In any case, don’t post about shit you know nothing about.
And all that is assuming natural = moral
So why did you waste two paraphs arguing it’s not natural if you consider that irrelevant?
I am sympathetic with veganism and I am working on reducing my meat consumption. Of all the arguments for veganism, “eating meat is not natural” is not one of them.
I am assuming this is some sort of vegan talking point that since some human teeth are mostly flat, ignoring canines and some particularly sharp front incisors, humans are supposed to eat only plants? Aren’t humans omnivores though?
You are interpreting that backwards. I wouldnt say it’s a vegan talking point so much as a non vegan talking point in reverse. It’s commonly argued that because humans have canines were meant to eat meat. Whereas vegans fully acknowledge the capacity to digest meat and evolutionary history that evolved omnivorous diets (but argue the majority of (not all) people have a want rather than a need) . The vegans are just memeing back.
meh I’ve heard mostly vegans make this dumbass argument.
I definitely support vegans but I don’t support pseudoscientific bullshit no matter who says it.
Have you realized you’re arguing with somebody named militant vegan yet?
If anything is dumbass pseudoscience, it’s the paleo diet, carnivore diet, and all other low carb diets.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FNIoKmMq6cs&pp=ygUhcGFsZW9udG9sb2dpc3QgZGVidW5rcyBwYWxlbyBkaWV0
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18596505-the-low-carb-fraud
Multiple different things can be dumbass pseudoscience, actually. Any time someone starts talking about what humans “were meant to eat”, I’m done listening. Humans can and do survive and thrive on an extremely broad variety of diets. It’s part of why societies were able to develop in so many different places.
Right, exactly. This is what I said. Humans _can _ survive on vegan diets. So the question becomes, if it’s possible to live a totally healthy normal life not eating meat, should you? This is the moral line that vegans come down on differently than the typical meat eater.
Nobody is arguing that humans can’t eat meat or that it wasn’t beneficial for our ancestors to be able to. The question is, if it’s not required, is it moral? Btw, veganism is about harm reduction. There are people to this day in impoverished countries who are actually required to eat meat to achieve sufficient nutrient intake. You will find 99% vegans having no problem with those people. But if you live in a country with basic infrastructure you probably have enough to at least significantly reduce meat intake
Another question is: if it’s moral, are you gonna do it for that reason?
I have no arguments against veganism. Vegans are right. Yet I am not a vegan.
People vary in their adherence to their own morals. Some change their morals more often than they change their actions.
I choose to be someone who puts my morals above my wants, at least as often as I can, and I try to learn all the time if there are other ways I am inadvertently going against my own morals.
Edit to add: I also used to agree with veganism and not take part, mainly out of fear it would be too hard and I’d fail or hurt myself. And then one day I just did it. I dont regret it one bit.
This is the “fuck off, I like guns” of meat eating and pretty much the only argument I’m receptive to. I get frustrated when people argue they should be able to do things using bad arguments. But if you say, I don’t have a good argument for this but I’m gonna do it anyway, that’s at least being honest with yourself and I respect that a lot more.
Hi there! You appear to be interpreting some type of meat eating ideology from my comment. Let me encourage you to take it at face value - the only intent is to criticize the idea that humans are “meant” to eat particular foods, an idea present both in the meme that started this thread and in the above mentioned paleo diet
We are agreeing lol. My point is that vegans do not actually make this argument. I have yet to ever hear it made unironically. Sometimes it is made in jest because it is made to us with sincerity from meat eater ideology.
To be honest I do largely agree with you on this. What we did eat should not really determine what we should eat now.
Nutritionfacts is a pseudoscience site.
The paleo diet is definitely, absolutely bullshit, but ketogenic diets have real use and purpose, if you can adhere to a strict ketogenic diet, and can do so without becoming malnourished (both of which are damn near impossible for most people). If you can get your body into a state of ketosis–not ketoacidosis, which is a potentially fatal condition most often associated with diabetes–then you burn off body fat much, much more quickly when you’re on a calorie-deficient diet, because your body is already using fats as a primary source for energy rather than carbohydrates. The downside is that you’ll feel like absolute dogshit for a few days until you adjust, since glucose is the preferred fuel for cellular respiration.
Nutritionfacts is a pseudoscience site.
thank you
Your defense of keto boils down to: people need to lose weight fast or they will give up, so its useful? Its an incredibly damaging diet if you were to stay on it for life.
And if you are only meant to use it to lose weight, what exactly do people transition to when done?
If anything is dumb it’s limiting your diet.
Humans have teeth suitable for both meat and plant foods. So I would say humans are omnivores.
I may be wrong, but a 100% vegan only diet I think requires supplements to be taken for certain things like proteins that humans need in order to live. Of course, those certain proteins are found in meats.
However, I think saying humans are carnovires would also be incorrect, and a 100% meat only diet would be I think equally as unhealthy as a 100% plant only diet.
I don’t think you read my post carefully. I said humans have teeth for both meat and plants. I didn’t say that humans aren’t omnivores. I just said (implicitly) that they are not obligate omnivores.
Proteins are not a concern, you can get all essential amino acids through only plant protein. Pretty much the only one that is hard to get enough of is B12. With real determination it can be done but it’s easier to just supplement. By the way, most omnis also do not get enough B12 and eat supplements either directly or through fortified foods. It’s just usually they are getting it through fortified milk which vegans don’t drink.
Milk is not typically fortified with B12. Plant based milk is more likely to be B12 fortified.
Probably depends on the country…
a plant based diet is completely healthy as long as you eat varied foods and don’t try something stupid like subsisting on apples and dandelions.
There are world renowned athletes who are plant based…
The idea that a pure plant-based diet can’t provide all the protein we need has been thoroughly debunked for a long time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DMwf_9wqWY0&pp=ygUdc3RhbmZvcmQgc2NpZW50aXN0IG9uIHByb3RlaW4%3D
The nutrient you’re thinking of is b12. Vegans need to supplement b12 (for now, discoveries are still being made on that front). But at the same time, in a sense, so does everyone else.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUyiiNwDNLU&pp=ygUOZWQgd2ludGVycyBiMTI%3D
My natural diet includes energy drinks, ensuring I have a nutritionally balanced intake that includes B12 :)
(I say this jokingly, but it is literally true)
Say you’re a (fellow) GFuel nerd without saying you’re a GFuel nerd.
Where I live, various vegan-targeted foods are fortified with B12, so it might be possible to get enough B12 that way without supplementing.
You don’t need to supplement b12 if you eat meat unless you have health issues that cause malabsorption.
Not really, many many more people are B12 insufficient than there are vegans/vegetarians. And much of what B12 you get is because supplements are given…to the animals. See e.g. https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30
And going back to your main point, it’s really just dubious to draw conclusions about what we are “meant” to eat based on the shape of our teeth. If all we’re considering is health and history, it’s not entirely accurate to say we’re just omnivores. It’s more like we are predominantly herbivores with some capacity for opportunistic omnivory in emergencies, but our ability to live on animal foods is rudimentary at best and comes at a high health cost. Also consider that from a Paleolithic standpoint, early humans would have been eating much more bugs as their protein, as that would have been far more abundant and easily gathered. Hunting is unreliable, and in most circumstances would have been a luxury at best (the book “Edible” goes into this).
Of course we also are becoming more intelligent, and have emerged the capacity for moral evolution. The paleo concept as a whole is ultimately just the argument from tradition fallacy. We can do better.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FNIoKmMq6cs&pp=ygUhcGFsZW9udG9sb2dpc3QgZGVidW5rcyBwYWxlbyBkaWV0
The paleo argument is about matching the environment of evolutionary adaptedness in diet, not tradition.
People seem to forget that human evolution started 3 billion years ago so our evolutionarily-adapted diet isn’t just “paleo”
I would be a vegan but I just don’t have the time or willpower.
I mean, the amount of time you have to spend bitching about other’s dietary choices is exhausting.
I’ve considered being like A half vegan Like a vegan but I’ll occasionally splurge at like events and restaurants
It’s not really considered as admirable tho and is just frowned upon by both vegans and non vegans
What if you just did it without getting any credit. You don’t need others approval to make a positive change
I’m proud of you. You’re doing something good even if you slip up. Me, I have decided to not go meat free.
You’ll find outspoken people on both sides, but despite their words the world is not black and white. Do what you can, do what you feel is best. Any harm reduction is harm reduction and an all or nothing mentality isn’t helping anyone anywhere.
Yet here you are?
Leave him alone. His anus is bleeding
All herbivores are opportunistic carnivores.
All generalizations are incorrect.
Pandas and gorillas have plenty of opportunity and are still obligate herbivores.
But gorillas do eat some bugs. Their diet is mostly plant-based and that’s why they are classified as herbivores.
Pretty much. The idea that there’s any species that is purely an herbivore just isn’t born out in nature.
The tongue one looks so silly lol
You can get vegan cyanide from bitter almonds.
But… who ever says that? I’ve never heard of this idea presented as evidence for why we should eat meat.
I definitely have.
Man, it really is entertaining when religious zealots try to meme
Veganism isn’t a religion. It’s a simple moral framework, a practical moral baseline, and a social movement like any other. Would you call a social justice, anti-genocide, or lgbtq+ rights advocate a religious zealot?
You are completely ignoring the fact, that for many it is too time consuming and involved to go vegan. And then you are imposing your belief that others should invest the same amount of resources, be it time or money, or they are worse human beings not caring about animals. In other words, being able to switch your diet is usually a sign of at least slight financial privilege. I just had some tofu so you don’t have to preach to me. But let others be and do not compare veganism to anti-genocide. It is absolutely ridiculous.
Don’t compare veganism to anti-genocide? My anointed sibling (gnostic gender-neutral idioms >> orthodox gendered ones), every animal product eater/user is complicit in the largest perpetual genocide in human history.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft
In the first place remember that veganism isn’t only about diet. And it’s about doing the best that you can, with what you have. Not everyone can go fully vegan, and that’s understandable and okay as long as they’re doing their best.
Also, I’ve never owned property. I’ve never worked a job that paid enough to afford it (or rent) on my own. When I started transitioning my diet, it was when I had switched jobs to a factory setting with 40-48 hour work weeks (post-covid it was almost always 48 hours), 10 hour shifts on my feet all day. Prior to that I was dependent on eating fast food every day (with predictable rapidly declining health). I also lived in a food desert where going vegan meant that I had zero options for takeout.
I had no one in my life willing to help, in fact all the people around me made it even harder to change. I also have adhd, and can’t stand the concept of meal prep. So what I did was save up for an Instant Pot, and started making the largest batches of grains and legumes that I could, along with frozen veggies (mainly broccoli). I generally cooked only once a week, and then would combine the helpings of leftovers in different ways each day (to keep it from getting too boring) for both my work lunches and dinners.
And I also sought community. Having vegan friends helps immensely.
Don’t assume that I’m as privileged as you think just because I’m vegan. On the other hand I know there are too many people who are far worse off than I am, and everyone who is struggling too much to go fully vegan should never be condemned, on the contrary we should seek to help - because our current food system is killing everyone who is most disadvantaged and impoverished.
Our capitalist wasteland, particularly when you factor in health outcomes, means it’s even more important to at least go plant-based (not the same thing as veganism), and to help others do the same.
it’s not a genocide. the goal isn’t to wipe out pigs or chickens or cows.
(Ignoring that our industrial animal-food system is probably a significant contributor to the vast extinctions we’re causing, since animal ag is the leading cause of wild habitat destruction).
Would you feel better about the human genocides that occur, if the mass murderers were deliberately and forcibly breeding the victims into existence so they could continue the cycles of killing perpetually? Or is playing word games more important than recognizing the reality of what we are doing collectively?
i wouldn’t feel any better about it, but it’s not a genocide. if anyone is playing word games, is the person who insists on using the wrong word.
I feel like you missed the point at the detriment of people taking your position seriously. Words and their definitions are very important in communication and I feel like semantics is something that is very undeserving of the flippant treatment it routinely receives.
If someone were to accuse someone else of lying, this also comes with an accusation of intent. It isn’t sufficient for someone’s statement to be false to be a lie, there also needs to be intent to deceive. Intent to deceive implies that the liar at least knows what they’re saying is untrue, and possibly implies they know what is actually true depending on the context. However, if there is no intent to deceive, it’s usually a case of that person just being mistaken. How frustrating would it be for someone to be accused of lying when they say something they believe to be true? And how seriously should they take their accusers when not only being told their view of reality is incorrect, but also being informed that their own intent is malignant when stating something they believe is true?
So, when it comes to describing something as a genocide, you’re also describing intent. If you tell people that they’re killing animals with the intent to extinct them, they’re probably not going to take you seriously. It’s probably better to have someone tell you what their intentions are rather than just assuming you can slap a piece of paper saying “this is you” on a scarecrow before drop-kicking it.
It’s perpetual misery and slaughter.
i’d say husbandry then harvesting. i think most of the people who make our food would, too.
There is evidence to suggest that low income households are more likely to be vegan or vegetarian than high income households. So financial privilege is not a good deflection. The reason so many vegans are not sympathetic to the argument about time or effort is that for the vast majority of them they have lived experience contradicting it so it comes across as an excuse. they are not spending any more time or mental effort to eat than anybody else. When you first make the switch maybe you spend 10% more effort to learn new recipes, what you buy or whatever, but it quickly becomes routine as any other dietary system.
(I say they because I don’t identify as vegan for a variety of reasons, but it does make it easier to have a conversation to use labels. I don’t advocate people become vegan, but I do advocate they try to reduce their animal product intake the best they can. In the rare circumstance that the best they can is nothing I don’t judge.)
To me It seems you are upset that people are putting you in a moral category below themselves and your reaction is to assume that means they are wrong. Firstly, don’t think of people as putting you below them morally, but putting your actions into less desirable outcomes. Also, sit with that. Should you feel uncomfortable? If so, what is an appropriate reaction to that discomfort?
I don’t think it’s productive to quibble about whether it’s comparable to human ethical questions, so no comment on the genocide. People have been in trouble in the past for making comparisons to Jim Crow or slavery. I don’t think it’s appropriate either, just as it would be inappropriate to argue whether Palestinian genocide or slavery was worse.
nonetheless, during any time of ethical or moral awakening, there were people complicit with status quo in those scenarios, maybe even sympathetic to some of the arguments but valued social order over progress, who were asked to confront their complicity and they blamed the people pointing this out as the judgy problem starters rather than addressing the root problem.
I have many friends which are vegan and we live in an area + work in an industry with a comparatively high amount of people with such a diet. We have talked about the topic at lengths, and my understanding is that in order to have a healthy diet you have to do quite a bit of research and spend time planning your meals. And then going out on a dinner is often a pain, although this has improved in the recent years.
We eat much less meat than the general public. But going the next step and eliminating meat and then diary products is not trivial. Unless you have less responsibilities and or more prior knowledge to get you up to speed. I simply do not have the time for that, I have a small kid to take care of. And we often struggle to plan enough meals ahead of time in the short period of time between finishing work and doing groceries.
It might sound like an excuse to you. It feels the same on my end, when my concerns are dismissed with some hand waving by people which usually are in a completely different place in their life than me.
First off, I am not vegan or even vegetarian. But every time I eat meat I am very aware that I am doing this from a very hedonistic point. It is not necessary for either my health or survival, nor is it morally or ethically ok. It just is not. Trying to find anything other than I like how it tastes as an argument is futile. But again, I am saying this as a person who does eat meat, not daily, but regularly.
You are completely ignoring the fact, that for many it is too time consuming and involved to go vegan.
It is not time consuming. Instead of making noodles with minced meat and tomato sauce you make noodles with tomato sauce. You literally leave out one ingredient, that’s it. Especially going vegetarian is literally a no brainer. If you aren’t too anal about being vegan (trace amounts etc) this is also really not time consuming. You don’t need to do fancy vegan recipes with sprouts or quinoa, this is the equivalent of cooking a beef wellington with truffle sauce for lunch. Even your walk through a supermarket is shorter because you don’t need to go through the meat aisle.
And then you are imposing your belief that others should invest the same amount of resources, be it time or money, or they are worse human beings not caring about animals.
You and I are less caring about animals and the planet. Even if we buy organic free range meat, we know the carbon footprint. We know that an animal was scared before its life ended untimely and unnecessarily. Let’s not fool ourselves here: It’s not a belief. It is what it is. It is a choice to make but let’s be clear: it is a choice. And as with every choice, it has consequences. Moneywise, I think I won’t tell you anything new by pointing out that meat substitute products are expensive, but a plain vegetable based diet is not per se expensive. Although I am very baffled by how little meat can cost - but we are talking about the lowest standard meat here. A kg of free range chicken breast is 30€ where I live. I can’t afford that every day for sure. And again, you don’t have to buy fancy sprouts, pea protein sausages, quinoa and all that. Rice, a can of kidney beans fried with an onion, and some sauteed veggies are a full meal which will not cost more or is more difficult or time consuming to make than any meat dish. Hell there’s even convenience food for vegetarians and vegans, which will - as all convenience products - cost more than if you prepared it yourself, but choose the resource you want to spend.
In other words, being able to switch your diet is usually a sign of at least slight financial privilege.
With a push to leave out meat, fish, and animal products, you are not being told to buy something. You are being told to leave something out. But I absolutely agree that if you are struggling to get by, then a kg of low quality chicken wings will get you fuller than a kg of bell peppers, which might also be more expensive. But the greatest majority of us - those not on food stamps or counting every penny - can absolutely afford to go vegan/vegetarian or at the very least leave out meat once in a while. Especially if you usually try to look for better quality meat (which is on the more expensive site) you can easily save money by leaving out meat.
I just had some tofu so you don’t have to preach to me. But let others be and do not compare veganism to anti-genocide. It is absolutely ridiculous.
If anything, not eating meat is more effective and more directly effective on ecological movements than protesting will be on your country’s (assumed by me) support of genocide. It’s very easy compared to much more complex issues. There are a lot of problems in the world that cannot be compared well but are all very important. You can address one and the other.
I think it’s just a diet.
My diet has been really deficient in leather jackets since becoming a vegan, at least I can still eat fruit leather.
Vegetalism is a diet, veganism is a bit more than that
If they act like a zealot, then yes. Most, like most vegans, are not zealots and we can have a great conversation. Your name gives me the feeling that a productive conversation might be difficult. But, I’ll try my best. 😁
I chose my username to make fun of all the people who categorize vegans as militant anytime we speak out at all. It’s to highlight that the only vegan who isn’t seen that way is a vegan who stays silent and does nothing to speak out against the atrocities being committed against animals.
Suuure.
And not all social justice advocates treat it like a religion. But some do.
Also, trying to compare veganism, a system of belief, to genocide resistance and human rights is absurd to the point that it exactly makes my point.
There is no world in which fighting genocide is the same thing as avoiding animal products. None, no way, no how. The arrogance of your statement is so far beyond the usual responses my little troll statement gets that I’m outright flummoxed. I can’t believe anyone would be that stupid, that arrogant, that ridiculous.
And that goes just as much for lgbt+ rights. You are outright absurd making that comparison.
And that absurdity is exactly why veganism is a religion to way too many vegans. Like, I’m not anti vegan, I know and love many, I just like getting online vegans riled up for entertainment. But you jumped the damn shark big time homie. That kind of thinking, that’s why people that hate vegans hate them.
Man, I find it hard to not just start calling you names because damn, son.
What is this “system of belief” exactly?
Veganism. I said that
I meant, please clarify what is the belief, not the name of it
Are you messing with me? Because I’m not in the mood to play games.
If you aren’t, I’m afraid we’re going to have issues unless we start from a different place.
What I wrote was: >…veganism, a system of belief…
Now, when written that way, the phrase “a system of belief” is being used to specify that that is what veganism is. And that’s what it is.
If you don’t know what veganism is, I would suggest you ask someone that doesn’t troll vegans for a proper answer. Though, to be honest, veganism isn’t a single, universally codified system. It’s more like a general heading that includes a fairly wide range of what is and isn’t “really vegan”. So even asking vegans, you can get varied answers.
If you really want my quick and dirty synopsis of veganism, it comes down to two basic principles.
First, that animals must be treated in a way that would be completely without exploitation.
Second, that causing the death of an animal to serve the wants/needs of humans is a very specific and very “wrong” way of exploiting animals.
That’s about the core of it. All the rest is essentially defining what is and isn’t exploitation.
I’m sure a vegan would at least quibble over that over simplified explanation, but IDGAF, that’s what it amounts to looking at it from the outside. A bunch of folks that have strong beliefs about how animals and humans should share the planet.
If you go digging into vegan writing on the ethics of a human/animal interactions, there are a lot of ways of expanding on that simplified version, but having read some of it when offered by vegans I know personally, in real life, I would say that my version is good enough for someone that’s never seen the word before.
Now, veganism isn’t exactly a unique thing in execution. Plenty of people around the world don’t eat meat at all. And there’s some of those that don’t use animal products at all. But, they aren’t necessarily Vegan. It isn’t a central part of their identity. It comes down to cultural norms, poverty, availability, or some other factor than a specific belief about human/animal ethics.
Veganism as you’ll see in English using forums is quite different from that because it has another central belief that you don’t see in most of the writings about it. And that is why I use the specific troll that vegans are religious zealots. That other belief is that they’re right and everyone else is wrong, period. And, much like zealots of other religions, the bad vegans will often treat other humans poorly when they don’t agree with them.
There is only one TRUE BELIEF, and that is veganism.
That is a wee bit of hyperbole, of course. Not every vegan is an arrogant zealot. No more than any other belief based group. As I said, I have people in my life that are vegan, and I love them. I cherish them in my life. But they’re not assholes :)
I cook vegan food for them. I even cook vegan for them when I’m already cooking “regular” food to feed a dozen or so people and they’re the only vegan coming.
Anyway, that’s not only what veganism is, but why the entire thread happened.
If that didn’t answer your question, I’ll try to do better.
If you were just trolling the troll, then I’ll just let it go and hope you have a good day :)
i wasnt trolling, just that I was surprised that you called it a religious thing when it was just a silly meme about an anti-vegan talking point… at no point was there any kind of theism or superiority complex, it was just a funny joke… but you took a lot of time out of your day to write this so thank you. I’m vegetarian myself and am very well aware of what veganism is. What I didn’t agree with is that it was a belief akin to a religion
This is your take, from someone who defines themselves as militant? Lol.
It’s absolutely a religion. One of the definitions of religion is “a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.” The examples you mention are much less narrowly defined. And if they started persecuting people who don’t join their specific method, then yes, they would be, too.
I mean, here you are proselytizing with poorly thought out memes. What’s more religious than that?
It aint a religion my man.
It’s #7 on the combo menu.
If pursuing something ascribed supreme importance is a religion, then being a doctor is a religion. Doctors ascribe supreme importance to the value of human life and to saving it.
Then it is. Not all doctors do, but ones who do would certainly fall under that category.
You see doctors educating, not badly trying to shame people to, for example, not participate in sports.
You would agree, then, that making fun of anti-vax people is unjustified, hateful, and forcing the religion of medicine down people’s throats?
Yes
Yes. Education works much better than mockery. Mocking people is for people who need to stroke their own egos. I’m confident in what I believe.
Ha ha. What a doofus.
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Is this an argument that humans did not evolve to eat meat? Because those teeth… Well let’s just say the teeth shown aren’t what you expect from an herbivore now, is it? Put those on a cow and they would look just as strange.
Nah, it’s just mocking the people who claim humans have to eat meat, because evolution/god/whatever gave us teeth to chew meat.
It is correct that our teeth do allow chewing meat (since we are omnivores), but yeah, taking the teeth as basis for any argumentation, that’s just ridiculous.
As the only basis, maybe. But they can be an indicator.
Our canine teeth are pretty shark-like. Not all of our teeth are that way though. So going by our teeth, I think we’re omnivores.
The prevalence of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and autoimmune disorders in western society indicates that we are really shitty at being omnivores at best.
Sugar and tobacco aren’t meats. I assure you that heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and autoimmune disorders would still exist even if no one ate meat.
Yes. Because people like you lean ridiculously hard into one way or the other. We need a variety of food sources to sustainability receive all the nutrients we need to live. Eating a majority let alone an only meat or plant based diet is the complete wrong direction, and this is scientific fact. At least with plants it’s possible to find substitutes, however some substitute’s aren’t nearly as sustainable as the vegan agenda tries to lead you to believe, Cough cough almonds cough cough. May, Spirulina save us all.
Human teeth are omnivorous.
We have TWO semi-pointy teeth. Two.
*Even Wikipedia agrees the bottom two are bullshit.
Human teeth also have sharp peaks and deeper valleys within them which is the case for the overwhelming majority of omnivorous creatures. Most obligate herbivores have flatter teeth or will regrow them unless they have teeth explicitly for a particular use case.
Source: You can check out scads of scientific resources on herbivores versus omnivore versus carnivore teeth. I assume you know how a search engine works, but here’s a solid article on differences.
Also my sister has been one of the veterinary bigwigs at several zoos through her lifetime and we’ve had multiple discussions on it.
How is a blog a source? All you’ve given is anecdotal evidence. I have that too. Pandas, sharp teeth, claws, obligate herbivores. Gorillas, sharp teeth, big muscles, obligate herbivores.
I’m sure your sister is a fine veterinarian, and if we’re going to get anecdotal I have a degree in biology and don’t really care what opinion your sister has. I work for real medical doctors who are anti-vax. Someone’s job doesn’t make them sensible.
Obligate. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
In all seriousness, pandas are still bears and can/do eat meat on occasion. Gorillas regularly eat insects and larva, digging up termite and ant nests. Our closest cousins the chimps are not only fully omnivorous, but are accomplished predators. Most herbivores (like ungulates, bovines, etc) will not pass up the opportunity to eat carrion, baby birds, small rodents, and the like.
Errrr… are you looking for me to provide you a primary scientific source for how teeth work in animals with differing diets? Most of that is in veterinary texts (which is an amalgam of info), but it’s akin to asking for a scientific evidence for gravity. What you’re asking is too broad to be covered in a single paper and shows a misunderstanding of how scientific studies focus and function. I was simply giving you a primer since you asked, and that blog is good enough for that (and accurate from the portion I read).
I can point you at papers (such as this one on Tooth root morphology as an indicator for dietary specialization in carnivores) which can help explain part of how food selection works in evolution, but I’m not sure what level of information would satisfy you or why you’d even want it?
Here’s one on how tooth wear affects teeth differently based on evolutionary eating habits.
Here’s one on the development and evolution of teeth.
Here’s one on mammalian teeth in specific.
If you’d like more, feel free to use https://scholar.google.com/ to look for more.
I don’t have anything to add, but I want to take a moment to applaud your comment. Well done, truly.
I appreciate it! I mod [email protected] if you’d ever care to join us.
We try to disagree in good faith and not attack each other there.
I appreciate the effort given, especially on that last link 😅 However I’m not sure we’re on the same page. I don’t refute any of that. Of course an animal’s tooth morphology can help deduce its diet, but it’s far, far, from the only factor. Tooth morphology can also be a vestigial trait. Body parts don’t just fall off when they stop being useful, like the human tailbone for example. Or the body part may serve a different purpose. In the example I’ve given of the panda bear and gorilla, the teeth are both, they evolved in their meat eating ancestors AND they help tear apart the plants they eat. In fact this is true for almost all mammals, and your sister should be able to back this up, as does the Wikipedia article thrown at me earlier. Meat eating animals have broad flat molars in the back of their mouth. Herbivorous mammals have sharp incisors to help tear apart plant matter.
So yeah, we may have a couple of sharpish teeth, a characteristic we share with most herbivorous mammals. We have a whole lot of other herbivore characteristics as well.
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/
The expert I feel expresses my point well enough but the whole article is worth reading. You should send it to your sister and discuss it. :)
That physician is a bit out of his field of expertise, isn’t he?
Seeing as how we hunted multiple mega fauna to extinction, I’m gonna go ahead and say that humans have been eating meat for a very long time. Also there’s shit tons of archeological evidence for our omnivorous diet going back hundreds of thousands of years, but… whatever.
I will never understand why people feel the need to try and prove humans are supposed to be herbivores. Who gives a fuck? There’s ample evidence that your can eat a healthy vegan diet, who gives a shit about “supposed to” if you can eat vegan either way?
That paper is not really a source, it’s a literature review. That’s not inherently bad, but essentially all it does is pull things in from other (if you check, quite outdated by nearly 60 years, which is a lot, ESPECIALLY for biology) articles and say “… and therefore this other thing may be true.” It’s essentially philosophizing.
The paper neither invalidate nor proves anything, it simply makes a loose connection to a strange claim.
The author is correct that we do have characteristics of herbivores. However that is not something anyone was questioning; that’s literally one of the requirements for being an omnivore. We also have characteristics of carnivores. And even obligate carnivores will often have some characteristics of herbivores due to evolutionary holdovers.
The paper is, essentially, saying nothing of value.
something else wikipedia agrees…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Diet
Humans are omnivorous, capable of consuming a wide variety of plant and animal material. Human groups have adopted a range of diets from purely vegan to primarily carnivorous.
But I thought we were talking about teeth.
In the context of whether or not our teeth are fit to consume flesh, no?
The statement was “Human teeth are omnivorous.” Which I’ve given plenty of counter-examples to. Showing me that humans have varied diets does absolutely nothing to further the argument, I can already see that. If you want to feel better about your choices I’m not the one you need to convince.
Got it, you are wrong and have an attitude
So just to be clear; you are pro ‘human teeth are omnivorous’? That’s what you’re saying I’m wrong and have an attitude about? 🤨
Yes? And carnivorous ivories have only pointy teeth.
Carnivorous ivories? The pitcher plant?
Four.
Source?
Cool source (the second one, the first one fucking sucks I hate it 😁). According to it all mammals have canines, even and especially herbivores. The sabre-tooth water deer for example, cited in your source, has extremely pronounced canines. Still a herbivore. Next!
Downvote if you can’t refute!
According to it all mammals have canines, even and especially herbivores
Such as this herbivore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg2mJ4veuAY
Flat teeth, ate meat.
Panda: sharp teeth, eats plants.
Almost like your argument falls apart at the slightest bit of scrutiny. Anyway
I didn’t even take a stance on what the teeth mean for diet. I was just correcting you lol.
I mean the source you provided literally says the bottom canines are less pointy and pronounced than the top set, especially in humans, so I don’t feel very corrected? You keep at it though, I believe in you!
the fact that I can digest meat at all suggests that I am an omnivore
it is wonderful that you are vegan but please shut the fuck up trying to pretend that it is humanity’s natural state
Your stupid mouth
You guys are so funny! Okay so FOUR semi-pointy teeth absolutely makes us omnivores I CANNOT believe what an idiot I’ve been!
None of us can understand how stupid we are. We’re humans.
Ok that I whole heartedly agree.
i didnt know teeth was the only factor in if you are carnivore or omnivore or whatever. i thought it was the fact that humans have eaten both meat and plants for as long as humans have been around
Human teeth are omnivorous.
